What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scaling?

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What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scaling?

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:50 pm

Looking back at the manga, I think we can all agree that there were several power scaling issues. If you could go back and edit Toriyama's script to fix these issues or even make certain parts less/more ambiguous or clear, what changes would you make? You are only allowed to revise the dialogue. This can mean replacing the original dialogue with something else entirely, adding to what is already or removing it. Your goal is to fix any issues relating to "Power scalling" and inconsistencies.

Name you your example(s) and tell me what you would do?

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by OhHiRenan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:44 am

Are there really scaling issues? I reread the manga every year, and I’ve never felt like the power scaling was inconsistent. There’s a pretty clear progression of power and Toriyama drops the number angle rather quickly, ensuring the Android and Boo arcs don’f fall into a number hierarchy like the Saiyan and Namek arcs do.
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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:32 am

I think the only one would be Frieza stating his power level, either by clarifying it a bit or lowering the number. Outside of that they never really seemed that unrealistic to me.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:22 am

Just one statement for me - I would not have Piccolo be shocked that Gotenks could transform to SSJ *after* fusing. Removes a ton of bloat (instead of requiring base Gotenks post-ROSAT > SSJ Gotenks pre-ROSAT, it just would mean SSJ Gotenks post-ROSAT > SSJ Gotenks pre-ROSAT). Power scaling gets out of hand during the Namek arc too, but it's woven into the story. You can't change much without rewriting honestly.

There are a lot of statements in the pre-Z manga content that present problems (I feel like we hear that a character got many times stronger so many times that it's ridiculous), but my own personal headcanon is that most characters are talking about strength rather than ki, and doing so as a proxy/fuzzy term instead of speaking of actual power increases. King Piccolo is really the first character to power up/control his ki, and Goku clearly changes in that regard before vs after training with Popo and Kami.

Super I probably won't comment on until the manga is complete, though there's nothing fatal for me. The only real major issue I have is, if we take the three chapter promotional manga of RoF as part of the manga's continuity (which I'm not sure that it is, there seems to be a difference in the Z and Super brandings of those events), then Goku fighting final form Freeza in his base is probably an issue. Since 'Saiyan Beyond God' was a concept that seems to have been thrown out the window in the U6 Arc, I think it would've made more sense for Goku to fight Freeza in SSJ.

I think that's it.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:44 am

I think fixing the powerscaling severely changes the story from the Frieza arc onwards.
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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by nato25 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:35 pm

I feel the manga is fine, its Freeza's dumb line from the movie id scratch out, luckily super did that for us.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by Helios518 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:45 pm

I would remove all form multipliers (besides Kaio-ken), and power level numbers from the manga, no from all of the shows and their guidebooks. This would allow the franchise to be way more flexible in the power scaling; causing the scale to not be broken as often.
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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:53 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:I think fixing the powerscaling severely changes the story from the Frieza arc onwards.
Does it? All we really need to know is whether somebody is stronger or not; the specific number doesn't matter really (especially after the Freeza arc where numbers aren't even used anymore). For example, Goku's Battle Power was Over 8/9,000 on Earth, and yet is able to reach 90,000 or so in six weeks. In-universe this makes no sense as it took him half a year to go from 416 to 8/9,000 training at King Kai's, but in terms of the story it means he's able wipe the floor with the Ginyu Force and be able to compete with all the villains on Namek, fulfilling his traditional role. If the Battle Powers followed logic then Goku would have been killed by Jeice and Burter, and the story would be no fun that way.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:06 am

Nothing. I'm fine with the power scaling shown in the manga. The anime is what is screwed up right now. An example is Android 17 vs SSJ3 Goku in the manga and SSB Goku in the anime. The anime is about entertainment and hence, will show more dramatic fights filled with transformations. Toriyama also works much more closely with the manga than he does with the anime as he has said repeatedly in many interviews. I'm still waiting to see how Toyotaro will proceed and scale the rest of the characters like Kale, Caulifla, Anilaza, the Pride Troopers, and Jiren in the manga.
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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:28 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:I think fixing the powerscaling severely changes the story from the Frieza arc onwards.
Does it? All we really need to know is whether somebody is stronger or not; the specific number doesn't matter really (especially after the Freeza arc where numbers aren't even used anymore). For example, Goku's Battle Power was Over 8/9,000 on Earth, and yet is able to reach 90,000 or so in six weeks. In-universe this makes no sense as it took him half a year to go from 416 to 8/9,000 training at King Kai's, but in terms of the story it means he's able wipe the floor with the Ginyu Force and be able to compete with all the villains on Namek, fulfilling his traditional role. If the Battle Powers followed logic then Goku would have been killed by Jeice and Burter, and the story would be no fun that way.
I still think it does in certain as it further increases the gap between Goku and the others. Toriyama sort of forced his hand with the SSJ multiplier being 50x.

As a narrative speaking, Goku training and defeating the Ginyu Force is fine but when you have big power gaps I think that's when it causes problems in the story.
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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by Luffy123 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:52 pm

Lol manga issue isn't only come to power scaling its way more than that however i do have do a decent change
Freeza could be strongest the galaxy as they is thousands.... of galaxies in space rather than saying a universe, this will help with the cell and Buu saga significantly

Power Levels are Stupid [DBG #2]

is a video that kinda describes a lot of the writing issues the dragon ball has in general, Instead of going horizontally it went vertical. In super could have fixed a lot of Z issues however Toriyama doubled down on this power escalation.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:08 am

I don't see any issues with the power scaling. The story really is a story of massive bloat. There is no conservative approach here. When he started to get himself in real trouble was the introduction of Kaioken. Having an ability to massively amplify your power is the cause for all of this. Everyone blames Freeza, but it's got nothing to do with Freeza and everything to do with Kaioken. When Goku's lands on Namek, he announces he can probably do a Kaioken x10. Now Goku's power is already at a staggering 90,000. 10x that is 900,000. So how can you have Freeza be a villain at all, if Goku can easily crush him? That's why we see Freeza's first transformation swell well past that 900,000 mark, then the usual over the top bloat occurs to make the villain even that much more impactful. If you keep Kaioken at the original 2x, then we wouldn't be in this mess, but it is where the story went.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:36 pm

SuperSaiyanMastaDon wrote:I don't see any issues with the power scaling. The story really is a story of massive bloat. There is no conservative approach here. When he started to get himself in real trouble was the introduction of Kaioken. Having an ability to massively amplify your power is the cause for all of this. Everyone blames Freeza, but it's got nothing to do with Freeza and everything to do with Kaioken. When Goku's lands on Namek, he announces he can probably do a Kaioken x10. Now Goku's power is already at a staggering 90,000. 10x that is 900,000. So how can you have Freeza be a villain at all, if Goku can easily crush him? That's why we see Freeza's first transformation swell well past that 900,000 mark, then the usual over the top bloat occurs to make the villain even that much more impactful. If you keep Kaioken at the original 2x, then we wouldn't be in this mess, but it is where the story went.
I disagree in the sense that Kaio-Ken is a move that has a tradeoff; it multiplies your battle power but seriously drains you afterwards, so you can only really use it in a pinch, and after a certain point it becomes useless and does more harm than good (see Vegeta and the x10 on Frieza). Frieza's skyrocketing power really has more to do with the story having him keep up to the powerups of both Vegeta and Piccolo, as well as the coming of Goku (and he technically gets a fifth in order to stand up to Super Saiyan Goku). Of course giving a solid astronomical number for his base form has a lot to do with that as well.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 02, 2018 1:15 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Nothing. I'm fine with the power scaling shown in the manga. The anime is what is screwed up right now. An example is Android 17 vs SSJ3 Goku in the manga and SSB Goku in the anime. The anime is about entertainment and hence, will show more dramatic fights filled with transformations. Toriyama also works much more closely with the manga than he does with the anime as he has said repeatedly in many interviews. I'm still waiting to see how Toyotaro will proceed and scale the rest of the characters like Kale, Caulifla, Anilaza, the Pride Troopers, and Jiren in the manga.
Dude the discussion is on the original run of DB. This isnt another DB super manga vs anime topic

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by Analytic » Wed May 02, 2018 1:29 pm

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”


I would change this statement to be about Super Saiyan, rather than base. It'd at least keep Gotenks, Evil Boo, and Gohan from being hundreds to thousands of times stronger than early Boo arc characters. As for Piccolo's statement, I agree that I would just keep the statement of him not knowing they could transform after Fusion out. That way he could be think about SS Gotenks instead of Base Gotenks as well.

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Re: What statements in the manga would you change to fix power scalling?

Post by KBABZ » Wed May 02, 2018 3:52 pm

Analytic wrote:Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”


I would change this statement to be about Super Saiyan, rather than base. It'd at least keep Gotenks, Evil Boo, and Gohan from being hundreds to thousands of times stronger than early Boo arc characters.
I disagree here on the basis that Trunks and Goten are known for being extremely cocky, and have little battle experience against Buu.

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