Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

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Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:24 pm

The battle makes much more sense if you consider the power levels that Nappa read off for Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan at the start but then we have the Daizenshuu's figures. Accordingly, Piccolo was at 3,500 which is around the range of 14% less than Nappa's 4,000 which is far from the biggest disadvantage between opponents in the series. Piccolo even states that Nappa alone "far outstripped the Saiyan from a year ago" in a manner as if they didn't stand a chance despite a mere 14% power difference between him and Nappa along with Gohan & Krillin(with battle powers of 1,700 a piece)there to help. Its like Piccolo was just willing to give up because he figured if he couldn't straight up overpower just Nappa then that means the entire battle was hopeless: not even bother trying to summon up a makankosappo or figuring out some way to release Gohan's rage. Surely there was at least something they could do and the fight wouldn't seem so bleak just from one opponent??
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:50 am

I always felt those power levels made more sense as the characters' highest ki output in the form of a massively charged ki blast like when earlier Goku and Piccolo raised their power levels by charging their Super attacks against Raditz.
They even list Gohan as 2,800, though he only went so high when fully charging his masenko.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:04 am

There's more to fights than just the power reading off a Scouter. Ki can be charged, multiplied, concentrated, etc, and that throws mud into whatever number a Scouter can be throwing up. For example, Raditz' power was 1,500, and Piccolo's top reading was 1,480. That's a 2.4% difference from Raditz, and yet Piccolo only barely won with Goku as an assist. Why? Because the 1,480 reading was when he was charging the Makangosappo, and thus wasn't his normal baseline ki level.

That aside, Saiyans are known to be incredibly durable regardless of what their power reading is (Goku survives gunshots despite only having a power of 10), which is probably why Nappa was able to take so much abuse from his opponents.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:11 am

Because they were unaccustomed to fighting for survival. Consider how they made themselves known to Nappa and Vegeta right off the bat, instead of waiting in the shadows until they could ambush them. Yajirobe pulled this off twice against Vegeta, who knows how things would have gone if Krillin threw a Kienzan after waiting for an opportune moment.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by DBZ Macky » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:44 am

Nappa was just an incredible fighter. He was able to fight on par with Goku who would be over twice as strong as him, going by the Daizenshuu numbers. I think pure Saiyans are just so skilled that they can comfortably fight above their weight class, after all, Goku doesn't seem much weaker than Gohan and Gotenks in the Buu arc (especially in the Anime) and can fight on par with SSJ2 Caulifla even in his base form.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:01 am

KBABZ wrote:There's more to fights than just the power reading off a Scouter. Ki can be charged, multiplied, concentrated, etc, and that throws mud into whatever number a Scouter can be throwing up. For example, Raditz' power was 1,500, and Piccolo's top reading was 1,480. That's a 2.4% difference from Raditz, and yet Piccolo only barely won with Goku as an assist. Why? Because the 1,480 reading was when he was charging the Makangosappo, and thus wasn't his normal baseline ki level.

That aside, Saiyans are known to be incredibly durable regardless of what their power reading is (Goku survives gunshots despite only having a power of 10), which is probably why Nappa was able to take so much abuse from his opponents.
So did Piccolo multiply his Ki to withstand Nappa's angry blast? Because it's highly unlikely that his 1,220 power level could withstand half of Nappa's power level enough to shield Gohan, if that is how much Nappa put into it.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:26 am

theherodjl wrote:
KBABZ wrote:There's more to fights than just the power reading off a Scouter. Ki can be charged, multiplied, concentrated, etc, and that throws mud into whatever number a Scouter can be throwing up. For example, Raditz' power was 1,500, and Piccolo's top reading was 1,480. That's a 2.4% difference from Raditz, and yet Piccolo only barely won with Goku as an assist. Why? Because the 1,480 reading was when he was charging the Makangosappo, and thus wasn't his normal baseline ki level.

That aside, Saiyans are known to be incredibly durable regardless of what their power reading is (Goku survives gunshots despite only having a power of 10), which is probably why Nappa was able to take so much abuse from his opponents.
So did Piccolo multiply his Ki to withstand Nappa's angry blast? Because it's highly unlikely that his 1,220 power level could withstand half of Nappa's power level enough to shield Gohan, if that is how much Nappa put into it.
Well Piccolo still died from it, so did that really matter in the end?

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:22 am

KBABZ wrote:Well Piccolo still died from it, so did that really matter in the end?
Well, yes.
Nappa's attack has to be at a level that Piccolo is durable enough not to fry completely: his body thoroughly prevented the attack from harming Gohan. At the same time however, Piccolo knew he would not survive it thus the attack also wasn't weak. The Daizenshuu says that Piccolo was at 3,500 with neither any footnotes or supplementary material included that says such a figure only added up after Piccolo used some technique to boost his Ki. The answer can only be that Piccolo was at 3,500 and Nappa was at 4,000. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain why Piccolo did so piss-poor against Nappa and abandoned hope of winning without Goku.
I'm guessing that for this specific fight....maybe a 14% difference in power was more than enough to handily win.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by Lionel » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:28 am

Because their minds have been dulled to accommodate the daunting impressionability that needs to be conveyed by these two antagonists. No Mafuba, no Kienzan, no "genius" creativity with the magic -- all has to pan out in the correct manner to establish how helpless everyone is without Goku around to muscle his way through the opposition. The characters don't even remember all of the techniques they have like arm extension for Piccolo which, you know, would have really come in handy when Gohan was about to get killed by Nappa.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:20 am

Lionel wrote:Because their minds have been dulled to accommodate the daunting impressionability that needs to be conveyed by these two antagonists. No Mafuba, no Kienzan, no "genius" creativity with the magic -- all has to pan out in the correct manner to establish how helpless everyone is without Goku around to muscle his way through the opposition. The characters don't even remember all of the techniques they have like arm extension for Piccolo which, you know, would have really come in handy when Gohan was about to get killed by Nappa.
So...plot-induced-stupidity? Nappa might as well have been using the dark side of the force to weaken the Z Senshi and it wouldn't be any less ridiculous.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:29 am

Guidebooks that don't contradict the manga are all well and good, but I think they do contradict here.

1) Nappa >= Gohan's Masenko = 2,800 > Enraged Gohan > Piccolo >> Tien > Kuririn > Yamcha > Saibamen

2) Kikoho > Scattering Bullet > Piccolo

At least that's what I can see. Gohan is counted on to be the closer because when he puts his mind to it, his power surpasses Piccolo. Gohan clearly puts his mind to it when he is able to kick Nappa and piss him off, leading to Nappa doing a finishing blast, which Piccolo sacrifices himself for. Gohan then is clearly enraged and at the height of his power, then fires what should be an amplified attack on top of that and Nappa still is able to punch it back, although he has a bruised hand to show for it.

This is what I use in my own head canon...

Nappa (vs Z Team) 3,000
Gohan's Masenko 2,800
Enraged Gohan 2,250
Piccolo 2,000
Tien 1,600
Kuririn 1,500
Yamcha 1,350
Saibamen 1,200

I find these numbers depict the events that occurred more accurately. The only thing I question is where Kikoho should go. Now that I look at it, it becomes obvious, Tien's Kikoho should probably be right around 2,400-2,500 based on this chart. Damn, I'm going to have to redo my video now. Haha.

Clearly my approach is going against the guidebooks, but it's just a thought.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:39 am

Because they were too weak to fight back. None of them had a BP even close to 3,000, while Nappa clearly had the power to bounce back Gohan's Masenko (BP stated of 2,800) with some effort. They only lasted this long because of team work and skill.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:12 am

Masenko to me appeared to be the finisher Piccolo had been planning on. I don't think any other battle power tops 2,800, except for Nappa's of course.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:49 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Because they were too weak to fight back. None of them had a BP even close to 3,000, while Nappa clearly had the power to bounce back Gohan's Masenko (BP stated of 2,800) with some effort. They only lasted this long because of team work and skill.
Then why is Piccolo officially labelled as having a BP of 3,500? It only makes sense that Piccolo would be at 3,500 to survive Nappa's angry blast. I doubt Nappa would have been willing to hold his power back to such-and-such degree when Gohan had really made him mad.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:59 am

That's the issue. The manga depicts 2,800 as the strongest attack, whereas the guidebooks go another route. For me it's clear, guidebooks are great, unless they contradict the manga, in which this case, a clear contradiction has been made.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:30 am

theherodjl wrote:Then why is Piccolo officially labelled as having a BP of 3,500? It only makes sense that Piccolo would be at 3,500 to survive Nappa's angry blast. I doubt Nappa would have been willing to hold his power back to such-and-such degree when Gohan had really made him mad.
Piccolo states Gohan surpasses even him if he puts his mind into it. When Gohan does so, his BP is stated to be at 2,800 while firing the Masenko. The 3,500 a mistake by V-Jump that was later added to the Daizenzhuu 7.

Piccolo never survived a blast from Nappa. He was only hit twice by Nappa: Once by his elbow, what left him unconscious for hours, and then by Nappa's blast to kill Gohan, which fried and killed Piccolo.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:51 pm

How do you feel about Kikoho being 2,400 o 2,500? I think it's a good fit...

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:31 pm

SuperSaiyanMastaDon wrote:How do you feel about Kikoho being 2,400 o 2,500? I think it's a good fit...
Kikoho > Masenko for me. According to Piccolo, it should've killed Nappa.
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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:49 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Piccolo never survived a blast from Nappa. He was only hit twice by Nappa: Once by his elbow, what left him unconscious for hours, and then by Nappa's blast to kill Gohan, which fried and killed Piccolo.
He was left unconscious for a few minutes actually. The 3 hours of waiting took place just prior to that.

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Re: Why Were The Z Senshi So Useless Against Nappa?

Post by SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:15 pm

I don't agree with that. Kikoho did hardly any damage. Piccolo was not aware of just how strong Nappa was at the time, Piccolo is just starting to see the depths of Nappa's power. Kikoho clearly would have done some insane damage to Piccolo, if not killed him.

2,800 is treated like a real serious threat, I think it's definitely several levels higher than Kikoho.

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