Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

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Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by theherodjl » Fri May 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Could there be an Oozaru that uses SSJ2 and/or SSJ3? How about SSJG or SSJB as well? LSSJ? SSJR? Maybe SSJG2 & SSJG3 at the very least? Or is Oozaru just designed to not stack above the general golden form?
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Kaboom » Fri May 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Probably not... in my mind, the Golden Oozaru form probably just gets more powerful the more Super Saiyan forms the Saiyan has attained.
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by theherodjl » Fri May 11, 2018 7:53 pm

So would a Golden Oozaru of DBS Goku now have greater power than his GT counterpart did? Goku has six forms, does that mean its twice as strong as the GT Golden Oozaru? Is it even stronger than that?
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Banana » Fri May 11, 2018 7:56 pm

I know we only see golden oozaru in GT, and it was SSJ1 Oozaru to SSJ4 that happened, so I would imagine the answer is no.

Keeping true to the GT facts (canon or not is a whole different debate) SSJ2, 3, and 4 are skipped over. This could change if they bring back the GT story but it's super unlikely if it will ever happen, and it probably won't ever.

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Cetra » Fri May 11, 2018 8:18 pm

Banana wrote:I know we only see golden oozaru in GT, and it was SSJ1 Oozaru to SSJ4 that happened, so I would imagine the answer is no.
We have no idea if it was "SSJ1". We saw Goku becoming a brown Oozaru that then changed colours. For what its worth it might be like Blue "a transformation that is unleashed with another power combined (which of course was the power of a SSJG/God Chi/whatever)", the level of SSJ itself might not actually matter for the Golden Oozaru.

If I were to combine Super and GT I would simply say he has golden fur because of SSJ as that of course was the intention and because of Super and GT combined in this little thought experiment I would explain the red fur of SSJ4 then channelling SSJG powers, leading once again to red hair/fur (instead of blue).
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Pantalones » Sat May 12, 2018 1:07 am

I've seen people theorize that the Golden Oozaru we saw in GT was actually "SSj2 Oozaru," in order to explain how Goku was suddenly stronger than Bebi-Vegeta the moment he transformed, which seems unlikely from a 500x boost like Oozaru + Super Saiyan would provide, since that's not massively far ahead of SSj3's 400x which was no match for Bebi-Vegeta even in his lower forms.

I don't really see a "SSj3 Oozaru" being a possibility, though, since that form seems to be something you have to train for and actively concentrate on using (unlike SSj and SSj2 which are rage-triggered transformations), which would clash with an uncontrolled Oozaru. And of course, we know that being able to control yourself in Golden Oozaru form just makes you transform further into SSj4, so even somebody like Vegeta who could control himself as an Oozaru already wouldn't really be able to use SSj3 in combination with it.

I also don't see "Bluezaru" being possible, and for similar reasons; Blue is a form that's defined by super precise ki control and making sure no ki leaks out from your body, which wouldn't work with a raging ape monster. The SSj God ritual and the idea of six righteous Saiyans also clashes a bit with the "rampaging engine of destruction" uncontrolled Oozaru, so a red flame-aura'ed God Oozaru is also unlikely... maybe possible for Saiyans like Vegeta who can control themselves as Oozaru, but maybe not. I guess attempting to combine either of the god forms with Oozaru would probably result in some sort of godly SSj4, probably resembling a SSj God/SSj4 hybrid rather than a Blue/SSj4 hybrid since SSj4 uses more "base-like" hair (as in, it stays black and doesn't stick straight up) rather than SSj-like hair.

Ultra Instinct Oozaru would be interesting, and probably possible since "moving without thinking" doesn't seem mutually exclusive with "rampaging ape monster" the way the concentration- and control-based forms are. Imagine something that big with those ridiculous reflexes and movements...

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Meshack » Sun May 13, 2018 12:20 am

Probably not. We’ve seen it in GT but that’s not canon. I doubt Toriyama will incoporate that into the series or even explain it.

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 13, 2018 12:42 am

Before we theorize if Oozaru can use forms above Super Saiyan, we should (?) theorize if it's possible to use it with the Super Saiyan form first.

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by theherodjl » Sun May 13, 2018 1:04 am

Grimlock wrote:Before we theorize if Oozaru can use forms above Super Saiyan, we should (?) theorize if it's possible to use it with the Super Saiyan form first.
We already know that it can. There is both the anime's depiction of the previous SSJ(as a Golden Oozaru) & GT's examples of three, different Golden Oozaru. Then there's the games where you can play as a Golden Oozaru.
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 13, 2018 1:15 am

theherodjl wrote:We already know that it can. There is both the anime's depiction of the previous SSJ(as a Golden Oozaru) & GT's examples of three, different Golden Oozaru.
When Goku transforms into Golden Oozaru, Baby would comment basing on Vegeta's knowledge that that form is a Super Saiyan or something, but he didn't say anything.
theherodjl wrote:Then there's the games where you can play as a Golden Oozaru.
Playing as Golden Oozaru in video-games doesn't tell you that it is a form using the Super Saiyan form as well.

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by theherodjl » Sun May 13, 2018 1:31 am

Grimlock wrote:When Goku transforms into Golden Oozaru, Baby would comment basing on Vegeta's knowledge that that form is a Super Saiyan or something, but he didn't say anything.
And golden fur means what else? That he's just an Oozaru with a lighter color?
Grimlock wrote:Playing as Golden Oozaru in video-games doesn't tell you that it is a form using the Super Saiyan form as well.
So I guess that because Super Vegetto is never referred to as "SSJ Vegetto" then that means it is ambiguous as to what he is?
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by p-hyvo » Sun May 13, 2018 9:45 am

sure, in my oinion super oozaru uses the strongest form of ssj of the guy who has transormed
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 13, 2018 9:54 am

theherodjl wrote:And golden fur means what else? That he's just an Oozaru with a lighter color?
That is a question to all. And one that we do not know the answer.
theherodjl wrote:So I guess that because Super Vegetto is never referred to as "SSJ Vegetto" then that means it is ambiguous as to what he is?
No, he is referred as Super Saiyan Vegetto in many different sources.

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun May 13, 2018 10:02 am

I've heard about how Golden Great Ape is the result of a Saiyan turning into a Great Ape after achieving Super Saiyan, but has this ever been explicitly stated in DBGT, the guidebooks, or by Toei employees?

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 13, 2018 10:09 am

Grimlock wrote:
theherodjl wrote:And golden fur means what else? That he's just an Oozaru with a lighter color?
That is a question to all. And one that we do not know the answer.
That is really not the question to all. Goku transformed into a brown-coloured ape and then suddenly turned gold. A Saiyajin that turns gold during a transformation is never implied anything else than to be somehow connected to Super-Saiyajin. Why should Baby even comment "oh my, he turned into a Super Saiyajin Monkey"? There is no reason for that. And with Golden Oozaru being implied to possibly be the transformation the (Legendary) Super Saiyajin in Vegeta's tales achieved we have one more connection to a Super Saiyajin. A visual description that might be totally ignored by the new movie.
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 13, 2018 10:49 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I've heard about how Golden Great Ape is the result of a Saiyan turning into a Great Ape after achieving Super Saiyan, but has this ever been explicitly stated in DBGT, the guidebooks, or by Toei employees?
No, it was never explained nor stated anywhere.
Cetra wrote:A Saiyajin that turns gold during a transformation is never implied anything else than to be somehow connected to Super-Saiyajin.
Being connected to Super Saiyan does not necessarily mean that it is an Oozaru transformed into Super Saiyan. Still, more than implications, I would like some source stating it.
Cetra wrote:Why should Baby even comment "oh my, he turned into a Super Saiyajin Monkey"? There is no reason for that.
Actually there is. According to Toei, Golden Oozaru form is the legendary Super Saiyan, but according to Toriyama, it is a regular Saiyan with their hair turned blond. And there must be just one form known as Legendary Super Saiyan, which one is it? Golden Oozaru or Super Saiyan? If it is Super Saiyan, then we don't know what Golden Oozaru is. If it is Golden Oozaru, then Super Saiyan form shouldn't even exist because the former plays the role of the latter, given all the information and images Toei provided. If Baby had said that, then this discussion wouldn't be happening, it would had set in stone that Oozaru is transformed into Super Saiyan.

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 13, 2018 1:49 pm

Grimlock wrote: Actually there is. According to Toei, Golden Oozaru form is the legendary Super Saiyan, but according to Toriyama, it is a regular Saiyan with their hair turned blond. And there must be just one form known as Legendary Super Saiyan, which one is it? Golden Oozaru or Super Saiyan? If it is Super Saiyan, then we don't know what Golden Oozaru is. If it is Golden Oozaru, then Super Saiyan form shouldn't even exist because the former plays the role of the latter, given all the information and images Toei provided. If Baby had said that, then this discussion wouldn't be happening, it would had set in stone that Oozaru is transformed into Super Saiyan.
No, this is really, really easy. Toei used the vagueness of this to present multiple "Legendary Super Saiyajin".

1. Vegeta's explanation follows what Akira Toriyama mentions in fewer words in the manga to stand for the Super Saiyajin that we then saw Son Gokuu to transform into. This is a "Legendary" Super Saiyajin as he was part of the legend. Akira Toriyama invented a concept and Toei stretched it by making multiple incarnations of a Legend.
2. Toei then decided to use their own visual description of a "Legendary Super Saiyajin" which they at this point had drawn as a really muscular monstrosity of a Saiyajin and invented Broly, who was the "Legendary Super Saiyajin" (and no, that does not mean Broly is THAT guy from the scene like some people think).
3. When Dragon Ball GT was made they once more used the visual description in the Freeza saga, this time using the musculuar monstosity of a Saiyajin that is accentuated with golden colour to show the Golden Oozaru.
4. In the whole Bardock Time Loop thing they used the whole fact that the Super Saiyajin was told to have appeared long ago (normally 1000 years ago) to show how Bardock long long ago appeared as SSJ and bring despair to the Freeza family.

They are all "Legendary Super Saiyajin". Broly is just the only one whose form is literally called that. Toei simply did what they could do from one simply scene and a few words to get very creative. So to answer your question, there does not need to be just one Saiyajin of Legend in the franchise because various ideas of that Legend all have their own Legendary Saiyajin. In Akira Toriyama's mind the Saiyajin of the past is Yamoshi. In Toei's mind the Saiyajin of the past is actually Bardock as well as two other versions of the Legend that brought life to Broly and Golden Oozaru. There is no actual answer to only one incredible Saiyajin existing in the past so they did a pretty genius thing to stretch outr that whole "Densetsu" thing as they could and introduce and explain a lot more than just one guy. If anything I think Broly and Golden Oozaru are more conflicting because of Vegeta's reaction about Broly but even that is not really a problem, because as said, that vagueness made the introduction of many characters possible and possible for multiple versions of the legend to be a thing, as we can see from their constant stretching of that tale. We will never know who "Jack the Ripper" was. What if "Jack the Ripper" was actually multiple people? What if they were all coperating?
Grimlock wrote: Being connected to Super Saiyan does not necessarily mean that it is an Oozaru transformed into Super Saiyan. Still, more than implications, I would like some source stating it.
So you refuse to use what the franchise introduces us to be named when a Saiyajin turns gold just for the sake of it, especially when the guidebook itself actually makes the deduction possible? That version of the Legend had a Super Saiyajin exist in this monstrously ape-ish state. I don't know what else you need. We have Toei introducing and multiple times utilizing the same concept to bring more things on the shelves and we know the whole transformation of a Saiyajin thing with golden colour and all and we have that one thing from the Perfect Files throwing us back to the filler scene of the Rampaging Super Saiyajin who cleverly was drawn vague enough as a silhouette that Toei could both use it as a concept for Broly (because, lets be real, they must have had the "Legendary Super Saiyajin" idea from somewhere as extension of the manga's story of the Super Saiyajin and this scene was made by them, just completely off when it comes to what Goku turned out to be so its easy for them to ask Toriyama-san to design him as a really musculuar monster of a Saiyajin, which he did) and of course lateron they could use it for GT.

That's the good thing about vagueness in this case. It might drive us crazy at times (especially me) but for a big company like them they can use it very cleverly for their marketing and in the end make things that are all "their own legend".
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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by TheMikado » Sun May 13, 2018 2:26 pm

Pantalones wrote:I've seen people theorize that the Golden Oozaru we saw in GT was actually "SSj2 Oozaru," in order to explain how Goku was suddenly stronger than Bebi-Vegeta the moment he transformed, which seems unlikely from a 500x boost like Oozaru + Super Saiyan would provide, since that's not massively far ahead of SSj3's 400x which was no match for Bebi-Vegeta even in his lower forms.

I don't really see a "SSj3 Oozaru" being a possibility, though, since that form seems to be something you have to train for and actively concentrate on using (unlike SSj and SSj2 which are rage-triggered transformations), which would clash with an uncontrolled Oozaru. And of course, we know that being able to control yourself in Golden Oozaru form just makes you transform further into SSj4, so even somebody like Vegeta who could control himself as an Oozaru already wouldn't really be able to use SSj3 in combination with it.

I also don't see "Bluezaru" being possible, and for similar reasons; Blue is a form that's defined by super precise ki control and making sure no ki leaks out from your body, which wouldn't work with a raging ape monster. The SSj God ritual and the idea of six righteous Saiyans also clashes a bit with the "rampaging engine of destruction" uncontrolled Oozaru, so a red flame-aura'ed God Oozaru is also unlikely... maybe possible for Saiyans like Vegeta who can control themselves as Oozaru, but maybe not. I guess attempting to combine either of the god forms with Oozaru would probably result in some sort of godly SSj4, probably resembling a SSj God/SSj4 hybrid rather than a Blue/SSj4 hybrid since SSj4 uses more "base-like" hair (as in, it stays black and doesn't stick straight up) rather than SSj-like hair.

Ultra Instinct Oozaru would be interesting, and probably possible since "moving without thinking" doesn't seem mutually exclusive with "rampaging ape monster" the way the concentration- and control-based forms are. Imagine something that big with those ridiculous reflexes and movements...

This is the most plausible example.

In GT it’s very apparent that there are multiple levels of SSJ4. Even how SSJ4 is able to access another level called SSJ4 “Full power”

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 pm

Cetra wrote:No, this is really, really easy. Toei used the vagueness of this to present multiple "Legendary Super Saiyajin".

1. Vegeta's explanation follows what Akira Toriyama mentions in fewer words in the manga to stand for the Super Saiyajin that we then saw Son Gokuu to transform into. This is a "Legendary" Super Saiyajin as he was part of the legend. Akira Toriyama invented a concept and Toei stretched it by making multiple incarnations of a Legend.
2. Toei then decided to use their own visual description of a "Legendary Super Saiyajin" which they at this point had drawn as a really muscular monstrosity of a Saiyajin and invented Broly, who was the "Legendary Super Saiyajin" (and no, that does not mean Broly is THAT guy from the scene like some people think).
3. When Dragon Ball GT was made they once more used the visual description in the Freeza saga, this time using the musculuar monstosity of a Saiyajin that is accentuated with golden colour to show the Golden Oozaru.
4. In the whole Bardock Time Loop thing they used the whole fact that the Super Saiyajin was told to have appeared long ago (normally 1000 years ago) to show how Bardock long long ago appeared as SSJ and bring despair to the Freeza family.

They are all "Legendary Super Saiyajin". Broly is just the only one whose form is literally called that. Toei simply did what they could do from one simply scene and a few words to get very creative. So to answer your question, there does not need to be just one Saiyajin of Legend in the franchise because various ideas of that Legend all have their own Legendary Saiyajin. In Akira Toriyama's mind the Saiyajin of the past is Yamoshi. In Toei's mind the Saiyajin of the past is actually Bardock as well as two other versions of the Legend that brought life to Broly and Golden Oozaru. There is no actual answer to only one incredible Saiyajin existing in the past so they did a pretty genius thing to stretch outr that whole "Densetsu" thing as they could and introduce and explain a lot more than just one guy. If anything I think Broly and Golden Oozaru are more conflicting because of Vegeta's reaction about Broly but even that is not really a problem, because as said, that vagueness made the introduction of many characters possible and possible for multiple versions of the legend to be a thing, as we can see from their constant stretching of that tale. We will never know who "Jack the Ripper" was. What if "Jack the Ripper" was actually multiple people? What if they were all coperating?
I can't believe you wrote that text around a completely missed point. I didn't say there must be just one Legendary Super Saiyan entity/person/Saiyan (and hell there isn't), I clearly said that there must be just one form, one transformation known as the Legendary Super Saiyan, and it must be either the Golden Oozaru form or the Super Saiyan form. Because, again, even though there might be an implication both forms are connected in the sense that Golden Oozaru is an Oozaru transformed into Super Saiyan, there is no official source actually claiming it to be true, nor do we know that it is even possible to use two transformations at the same time. It is also possible to think that, for Toei, a Saiyan simply transformed into Oozaru and their fur became gold (or transformed directly into a Golden Oozaru) and that came to be known as the Legendary Super Saiyan without any implication that the Super Saiyan form exists.

When Goku transformed he was in base form but he had Super Saiyan, but that doesn't mean the ancient Saiyan also had Super Saiyan. It's like the ritual for Super Saiyan God, even though Goku and the rest were all transformed into Super Saiyan, obviously the Saiyan who transformed into Super Saiyan God in the past, along with his friends, weren't transformed into Super Saiyan (otherwise there would be no legend).
Cetra wrote:So you refuse to use what the franchise introduces us to be named when a Saiyajin turns gold just for the sake of it, especially when the guidebook itself actually makes the deduction possible? That version of the Legend had a Super Saiyajin exist in this monstrously ape-ish state.
What the guidebook tells about it?

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Re: Can An Oozaru Use SSJ Forms Above The Ordinary SSJ1?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Grimlock wrote:I can't believe you wrote that text around a completely missed point. I didn't say there must be just one Legendary Super Saiyan entity/person/Saiyan (and hell there isn't), I clearly said that there must be just one form, one transformation known as the Legendary Super Saiyan, and it must be either the Golden Oozaru form or the Super Saiyan form.
And I cannot believe that you have read my text because then you would have actually seen that the answer to "there must be" is in the text included. So - discussion over as you clearly have no actual interest.
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