Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:40 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Hence, if your theory that the future timeline is fast forwarded were true, then the year in the future after he returned after the Cell Saga should have been Age 787, but it was not.
Most people assume that 785 is the year that Trunks returned, but this is not necessarily the case.

In this explanation, references to Cell's future are in bold black, and Trunks' future in bold blue.

The year 785 is taken from two bits of information in the manga: that Cell came from 788 and that Trunks waited three years to kill Cell after stopping 17 and 18. However, the bits refer to different characters and timelines: Cell came from 788 and Trunks waited three years for Cell.
Therefore, it is not stated that Cell appeared three years after Trunks returned or that Cell confronted Trunks in 788. Hence, it’s possible that Cell appeared one year after Trunks returned and that Trunks confronted Cell in 790. What might’ve caused Cell to appear two years later than Cell? When Trunks killed the cyborgs in his timeline, Cell must’ve sensed his vastly increased power and decided that he needed to bide his time a fait bit longer.

This way, the idea that Trunks returned to 787 instead of 785 fits with the statements in the canon.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:57 pm

Terra-jin wrote:Most people assume that 785 is the year that Trunks returned, but this is not necessarily the case.

In this explanation, references to Cell's future are in bold black, and Trunks' future in bold blue.

The year 785 is taken from two bits of information in the manga: that Cell came from 788 and that Trunks waited three years to kill Cell after stopping 17 and 18. However, the bits refer to different characters and timelines: Cell came from 788 and Trunks waited three years for Cell.
Therefore, it is not stated that Cell appeared three years after Trunks returned or that Cell confronted Trunks in 788. Hence, it’s possible that Cell appeared one year after Trunks returned and that Trunks confronted Cell in 790. What might’ve caused Cell to appear two years later than Cell? When Trunks killed the cyborgs in his timeline, Cell must’ve sensed his vastly increased power and decided that he needed to bide his time a fait bit longer.

This way, the idea that Trunks returned to 787 instead of 785 fits with the statements in the canon.
The official timeline and date of Age 788 when Cell arrived in the future is stated in the Daizenshuu 7, it was not just implied from the manga. I posted it in the first post. It states that Trunks defeated Cell in Age 788 in the future (Timeline 2). At the same time, in the original timeline (Timeline 3), Cell kills Trunks also in Age 788. The appearance of Cell doesn't change. Cell would want to come as early as possible to absorb the Androids, but he missed them by 3 years.

Cell himself stated that all the genetic material was finished collecting after Cold and Freeza's arrival. That, the present Cell would not be matured until 24 years later (Age 764+24=788). In the Original Timeline, Timeline 3, Trunks arrived with 17's blueprints. It took Bulma approximately 1 year to design the remote controller which Trunks used in Age 786 to kill the Androids. Then 2 years later, Cell arrived in Age 788 to kill Trunks and take his time machine.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:04 pm

In that case, Trunks must've created a new timeline when he returned to 785 instead of 787. Since it's logically necessary that his future was at 787, if he travels to 785 he travels two years into the past of his timeline. And, since going to the past creates new timelines, another one is created when Trunks returns to 785.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:09 pm

Cipher wrote:This was perhaps a bit verbose, and I wish the video-game information had been left out for clarity, but --

It's all correct! Paradoxes are identified correctly, as are the origins for each timeline split. I can sign off on this breakdown.

And yes, we end up with seven timelines total: six related to the events of the series, one identified by the manga's dialogue about the Universe 12 time-traveler, should you choose to include that.
Thank you for reading it all! The hard part is always getting past that TLDR barrier. :cry:

To be comprehensive, I included everything I could including the video game stuff as it does not contradict the theory but rather supports and expands on it.
Last edited by shadowfox87 on Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:14 pm

Terra-jin wrote:In that case, Trunks must've created a new timeline when he returned to 785 instead of 787. Since it's logically necessary that his future was at 787, if he travels to 785 he travels two years into the past of his timeline. And, since going to the past creates new timelines, another one is created when Trunks returns to 785.
Well a new timeline was created, but not for that reason. As I told you before, if Trunks travels to the past to Age 765, spends 2 years, then 2 years also passed in the future. However, he didn't spend 2 years. Instead, he traveled using the time machine to Age 767 and spent a few weeks, so only a few weeks passed in the future. Therefore, it is still Age 785 and not Age 787.

That is, Trunks traveled from year X to year X-y. Then returned and traveled to year X-y+3. If he spends 'b' years, then 'b' years also pass in the future. When he returns, he must return to the future, year X+b. However, using the time machine to skip years in the future does not count in 'b'.

A new timeline was created in the future because history changed. Trunks killed Cell, which created a paradox as explained in the first post. New timelines are created when a change happens that creates a paradox.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:19 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Therefore, it is still Age 785 and not Age 787.
This would lead to the logical contradiction that I've described earlier. Therefore, it cannot be 785; it is 787 (contrary to the guidebook material, not contrary to the original manga).
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:23 pm

Terra-jin wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Therefore, it is still Age 785 and not Age 787.
This would lead to the logical contradiction that I've described earlier. Therefore, it cannot be 785; it is 787 (contrary to the guidebook material, not contrary to the original manga).
I think we are going around in circles. The manga supports what the guidebook has already written. In both future timelines, (Timeline 3 and 2), Trunks returned from the past to Age 785. This is also stated in Chouzenshuu 4, which is the revised and updated version of Daizenshuu 7, that was published in 2013. Trunks did not spend 2 years in the main timeline, he spent a couple of weeks. He used the Time Machine to skip 3 years ahead of the last time he visited. What matters his how long the person is in the timeline that he is visiting, that is the time that is elapsed in both timelines. Time continues to flow in all timelines, it doesn't stop or freeze.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:31 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:I think we are going around in circles.
It seems so :P

Let's try this.

1. Trunks' future remains at 785 during 765 thru 767.
2. The opposite happens if someone travels from 765 to 787, instead of 785 to 767.
3. If both these trips would occur simultaneously, it would lead to a logical contradiction.

Where's the flaw in my reasoning?
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:47 pm

Terra-jin wrote:1. Trunks' future remains at 785 during 765 thru 767.
This is not what I'm saying. As we discussed earlier, an Age (or point in time) in one timeline does not equal to an Age (or point in time) in another timeline. Time isn't being frozen in the future such that it is Age 785 while two years pass in the main timeline, Age 765 to Age 767.

Both timelines are constantly flowing and time is being passed in each. However, what matters is the perspective of the time traveler. The amount of time the time traveler spends outside of the future timeline, is the time that is elapsed in the future timeline. It does not matter to what point in time he goes to the past. That does not affect the time elapsed in the future.
Terra-jin wrote:2. The opposite happens if someone travels from 765 to 787, instead of 785 to 767.
Traveling to the future, will not create a new timeline. If Trunks traveled from Age 765 to Age 787, then Age 787 now becomes the new reference. He would not be able to then travel to Age 785, or he would create another future timeline. Traveling from Age 785 to Age 767, also did not create a new timeline, because he went 3 years to the future of the same timeline he visited before.
Terra-jin wrote:3. If both these trips would occur simultaneously, it would lead to a logical contradiction.
Where's the flaw in my reasoning?
The logical contradiction I assume you're referring to is the "paradox". Since we have one Trunks that traveled from Age 767 to Age 785 and gets killed by Cell. While another Trunks that also travels from Age 767 to Age 785 and kills Cell. This is the contradiction and paradox because both these trips are occurring simultaneously. This is why a new timeline is created to solve this paradox. There are two trunks and two timelines.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:54 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Terra-jin wrote:1. Trunks' future remains at 785 during 765 thru 767.
This is not what I'm saying. As we discussed earlier, an Age (or point in time) in one timeline does not equal to an Age (or point in time) in another timeline. Time isn't being frozen in the future such that it is Age 785 while two years pass in the main timeline, Age 765 to Age 767.
You did agree with this a couple of posts earlier.

Anyway. I think this topic requires a visual explanation instead of textual. Perhaps someday I'll make a video about it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:01 pm

Terra-jin wrote:You did agree with this a couple of posts earlier.

Anyway. I think this topic requires a visual explanation instead of textual. Perhaps someday I'll make a video about it.
I don't remember agreeing that time is frozen in the future for it to be Age 785 while time passes in the main timeline from Age 765 to 767. Time is ever flowing. I agreed on these 4 points you posted:
Terra-jin wrote:1. Right before Trunks' second trip, it's 785 in his timeline.
2. Meanwhile, it's 765 in the main timeline.
3. After his second trip, it's 767 in the main timeline.
4. Meanwhile, (according to you) it's still 785 in Trunks' future.

Agreed on the above points?
I still agree with these four points. As I said, what matters is not the difference, 767-765=2 years, but the amount of time Trunks spends outside of the future timeline ~ a few weeks.
shadowfox87 wrote:That is, Trunks traveled from year X to year X-y. Then returned and traveled to year X-y+3. If he spends 'b' years, then 'b' years also pass in the future. When he returns, he must return to the future, year X+b. However, using the time machine to skip years in the future does not count in 'b'.
Note that above, "he must return to the future, year X+b. The 'y' is not part of it. It does not matter where in the main timeline he goes, the time elapsed will always be 'b'.

I would love if someone would make a video on all this as all the previous videos made on timelines including the ones by Quaaman, Geekdom101, etc. are now outdated. This is covers all the DBS stuff while incorporating the DBZ stuff as well as the expanded DB verse.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:18 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:\
Terra-jin wrote:1. Right before Trunks' second trip, it's 785 in his timeline.
2. Meanwhile, it's 765 in the main timeline.
3. After his second trip, it's 767 in the main timeline.
4. Meanwhile, (according to you) it's still 785 in Trunks' future.

Agreed on the above points?
I still agree with these four points.
These points entail that from 765 to 767, Trunks' future remains at 785. Yet you say you disagree with this?
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:38 pm

Terra-jin wrote:These points entail that from 765 to 767, Trunks' future remains at 785. Yet you say you disagree with this?
I completely agree with those four points, but not that conclusion. These points do not necessary entail what you are saying but I understand that is one interpretation. Those four points are correct as it stands and what actually occurs in the manga, Daizenshuu, and Chouzenshuu. But the logic you are deriving from it imply that you believe that the future timeline gets fast forwarded or is frozen, which are both incorrect.

Trunks had to visit the main timeline in Age 767 because that is the year that the Androids attacked South City. He wasn't going to wait 3 years in the main timeline for that to occur. He went back to the future to Age 784, then recharged for 1 year, took a second trip from Age 785 to Age 767. The age from when he left is Age 785 and is also the same Age that he will return to. He had to change the settings on the Time Machine to 3 years forward to do this.

In DBS, when Trunks arrives from the future, it is Age 779, December in the main timeline (year is almost over), so it's really Age 780. This is 780-767=11 years. Does this mean that 11 years have passed in the future? According to the Xenoverse timeline, the year from which Trunks is coming from is Age 796. If 11 years passed in the future, then it would be Age 785+11=796. Hence, this proves that 11 years did indeed pass in the future from the last time Trunks visited the main timeline.

I think the confusion here stems from the fact that Trunks manually traveled to 3 years in the future to meet the Androids on his second visit, changing the settings on the time machine. This changed what the reference point for the main timeline is. In his third trip to the main timeline, he just pressed a button and went back, 11 years forward from the last point, without changing any settings.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:47 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:I completely agree with those four points, but not that conclusion. These points do not necessary entail what you are saying but I understand that is one interpretation. Those four points are correct as it stands and what actually occurs in the manga, Daizenshuu, and Chouzenshuu. But the logic you are deriving from it imply that you believe that the future timeline gets fast forwarded or is frozen, which are both incorrect.
You agree that Trunks' future is at 785 when the main timeline is at 765.
You agree that Trunks' future is at 785 when the main timeline is at 767.
You don't agree that Trunks' future remains at 785 from 765 to 767.

I really don't understand you :P if that's not an example of a set of obviously contradicting views, I don't know what is.

What year is Trunks' future at the moment that the main timeline is at 766?
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:08 pm

Terra-jin wrote:What year is Trunks' future at the moment that the main timeline is at 766?
This is the main problem right here. You're thinking that a single point in time corresponds to another point in time in another timeline. Each timeline is flowing independently. Trunks decides what time he wants to visit the main timeline. He can go to any time he wishes, but the time from where he is coming from will be the same. If Trunks is drinking hot chocolate in Age 785, then it is Age 785 for him. It does not matter what point in the main timeline we look at - year 5000 or 3000 or anything.

What matters is the "reference" point. The reference point is the point he last visited the main timeline. If the reference point is Age 764 (his first visit), then to answer your question, 766-764=2 years. So 2 years passed in the main timeline and 2 years passed in the future timeline. Does that mean however that Trunks waits 2 years in the future before he can visit the past? No. He has a time machine so he can choose whatever date he would like to go to as long as it is after the reference point he last visited. Trunks only waited 1 year in the future and chose to travel to 3 years in the future of the main timeline, so 764+3=767. Now the reference point is 767. He changed the settings on his time machine to do this. If he didn't change any settings, he would end up only 1 year forward in time from the reference point, 764+1=765.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:40 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:You're thinking that a single point in time corresponds to another point in time in another timeline.
That's correct. This is a consequence of viewing timelines as separate worlds.
shadowfox87 wrote:Each timeline is flowing independently.
If this is the case, then why did you agree that 785 corresponds with 765 before Trunks' first trip (and with 767 afterwards)?

Anyway, this is directly in conflict with Bulma's statement in the DBS manga about concurrent time flow (which you yourself agree with). Timelines don't flow independently, time on all timelines passes interdependently. 1 day here, 1 day there.
shadowfox87 wrote:It does not matter what point in the main timeline we look at - year 5000 or 3000 or anything.
Consider Trunks' second trip again. It's 785 and he's preparing to visit the main timeline again. He spent 'b' days in the future, so 'b' days passed in the main timeline. If he now visits a time before 784 + 'b' , he changes the past and creates a paradox. If he visits a time after 784 + 'b', he enters the future of this timeline and doesn't create a paradox. The point in the main timeline matters directly to your first rule of time travel.

I can't escape the conclusion that your theory suffers from internally conflicting views.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:54 pm

Terra-jin wrote:If this is the case, then why did you agree that 785 corresponds with 765 before Trunks' first trip (and with 767 afterwards)?

Anyway, this is directly in conflict with Bulma's statement in the DBS manga about concurrent time flow (which you yourself agree with). Timelines don't flow independently, time on all timelines passes interdependently. 1 day here, 1 day there.
Trunks from Age 785 traveled to Age 765 and hence, Age 765 is the reference point. If Trunks returns to the future, he will return to Age 785+the amount of time he spent in the main timeline.

If Trunks from Age 785 traveled to Age 3000, Age 3000 is the reference point. If Trunks returns to the future, he will return to Age 785+the amount of time he spent in the main timeline.

This does not mean that Age 765 = 785 in another timeline. The time machine decides where Trunks wants to go. The time elapsed in those main timelines will also be elapsed in the future timeline with respect to what the reference point is. The reference point is the last time point the time machine went to visit the main timeline.

I already gave you the example of how the time was flowing in DBS, which is consistent with Bulma's words and what I said. The problem is that you're thinking that one Age equals another Age in another timeline. What matters is the reference point.
Terra-jin wrote:Consider Trunks' second trip again. It's 785 and he's preparing to visit the main timeline again. He spent 'b' days in the future, so 'b' days passed in the main timeline.
Agreed, but what is the reference point in the main timeline? Is it Age 764?
Terra-jin wrote:If he now visits a time before 784 + 'b' , he changes the past and creates a paradox. If he visits a time after 784 + 'b', he enters the future of this timeline and doesn't create a paradox. The point in the main timeline matters directly to your first rule of time travel.

I can't escape the conclusion that your theory suffers from internally conflicting views.
No. If the reference point is Age 764 in the main timeline, then Trunks can travel to ANY point after Age 764+b. The first rule states, "1. New Timelines are created when changes are done in the past which create a paradox.". I'm not sure how this is contradicting anything else in the theory. Currently, it is consistent with the manga, anime, Daizenshuu, and Chouzenshuu.

If he travels to a point before the reference point (i.e. before Age 764+b), then a new timeline is created. Cell did exactly that when he traveld to Age 763, 1 year prior to when Trunks traveled in his first visit.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by szopman » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:31 am

Here's how I perceive the alternate timelines in DB:
Image

Now, my theory is that the movie 7 might take place in this "unseen timeline" from which Trunks (Cell's timeline) returned to his world (only to be killed by Cell). In my opinion, this theory really makes sense.
Image

And now, a version that includes the events of SDBH with 'Xeno' characters. I understand this parallel world concept as a separate dimension/world with its own timelines.
Image

It's worth noting that I only consider mangas and animes as a source.

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:43 pm

szopman wrote:Here's how I perceive the alternate timelines in DB

It's worth noting that I only consider mangas and animes as a source.
We got the same number of timelines. You also acknowledge the Unseen Timeline and the Timeline created by the U12 traveler. See, I simply said that the main timeline is the one we watch on TV (which it is since it has been confirmed by Toei's charts). I put the GT timeline in the one created by the U12 traveler. I said that in this timeline Beerus did not wake up because there was no prophecy for the SSG. So he never set an alarm clock for 39 years. In that timeline, Pilaf did not wish to be young and thus, does not get invited to Bulma's birthday party. So he does not become friends with the gang. Instead, he goes to Kami's lookout and finds the original Dragon Balls created by the Nameless Namekian - the Black Star Dragon Balls and wishes for Goku to be a kid. This starts GT. You can't put the GT timeline in the Unseen since the Unseen is an exact copy of the main timeline until the Cell Saga but Beerus makes the decision to set his alarm much before that. The only timeline that can fit is the GT one.

I also put Movie 7 in the Unseen Timeline like you and additional movies where they could fit. Just read my Part 3 explanation where I write the Expanded Verse theory. The DB Heroes story is based off a Xeno Trunks that comes from another future timeline in which Trunks has killed Cell. In timeline 6, there are two pairs of Trunks and Mai. I simply said that Xeno Trunks (purple hair) lives in that timeline with Future Bulma while Future Trunks (blue hair) lives with Future Mai. Chronoa recruited Xeno Trunks to join the Time Patrol. She gets Xeno Goku from Trunks' memories because Trunks looks up to Goku and thinks he's the strongest. So Chronoa takes a Goku from a future timeline who knows SSJ4, which means he is most likely from the GT Timeline - the U12 timeline after he has fought with Li Shenron. We can't really create new timelines since we have a limited number of time rings to work with. There could be new timelines created in the future though.

This is also consistent with the SDBH manga and DBO timeline.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:53 am

I still don't get why there's another Future Trunks timelines. Cell's arrival makes another one but this time line can't survive long enough to facilitate a Future Trunks of its own, by all rights Cell should grow back to a world where Goku is still dead from the virus and the Android duo has started wrecking things only to get absorbed by him.
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