Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

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Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:00 pm

Its kind of a fanfic idea I had, but do you suppose that Vegeta will actually improve beyond SSJB:Evolution, and achieve a greater form similar to Toppo's GoD power-up? Vegeta has been exposed to Hakai energy directly from a being with the powers of a Hakaishin then overwhelmed that same guy's powers with just a regular Ki blast; do you suppose that means Vegeta now has some resistance to Hakaishin power or does possess some himself? Will that be incorporated into a new form? Are we going to see a purple version of SSJBE or a "SSJ Purple"?
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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:29 pm

No. I don't see why Vegeta would need a new form since his current power is already above a God of Destruction.

Goku was able to use Destruction Energy in the manga, so Vegeta wouldn't need a new form to use the energy. Destruction Energy is just a specific application of God ki.

Using the energy is likely as simple as having the skill to manipulate God ki into Destruction Energy and being at a certain power threshold.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:26 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:No. I don't see why Vegeta would need a new form since his current power is already above a God of Destruction.

Goku was able to use Destruction Energy in the manga, so Vegeta wouldn't need a new form to use the energy. Destruction Energy is just a specific application of God ki.

Using the energy is likely as simple as having the skill to manipulate God ki into Destruction Energy and being at a certain power threshold.
How do you figure that? SSJBE Vegeta's power along with Kaio-ken x 20 SSJB Goku & Android 17 was unable to produce any noticeable results on Jiren; a guy with power on par with the Hakaishin. At best, Vegeta is close to the Hakaishin in power.
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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:44 am

Vegeta already beat a God of Destruction and Jiren is above a God of Destruction, not equal to them. Jiren is stated to be above the God of Destruction state. Toppo became a God of Destruction and Jiren was obviously stronger than him, which again goes back to what was said before and during the tournament.

Belmod was worried about how Jiren's ability to handle the Spirit Bomb and Belmod knows that Jiren is stronger than him. While Belmod said that the Spirit Bomb worried him, it was a piece of cake for Jiren even while he was heavily suppressed. And at that point Whis concluded that Jiren's power was like a God and has even surpassed the state as a whole. There isn't anything supporting the Gods being "on par" with Jiren.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:00 am

Toppo was just a candidate Hakaishin, he was probably weaker than even Sidra. In addition, he was holding back to avoid killing his opponents and being disqualified. Vegeta would not have beaten him if he was going for the kill.
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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:27 am

Saying he's just a candidate doesn't mean anything. A candidate is by definition suitable to take the position and the only reason that Toppo isn't the God of Universe 11 is because Belmod hasn't retired. Belmod stated that Toppo was no different from a God, so there's no logical difference between a god candidate and an actual god based on title alone other than one doesn't have the official position and the other does.

There isn't anything stating that Toppo held back against Vegeta at all. That just sounds like a random excuse. The facts are that someone whom had become a God of Destruction and was no different from any of the other Gods lost to Vegeta. No reason for denial. The story presents a very obvious progression with Toppo becoming a God of Destruction and Jiren being stronger than that power as stated before and during the tournament. The characters beat God of Destruction level power, then they moved on to the final enemy that eclipses that level.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by BlueVegerot » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:33 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Vegeta already beat a God of Destruction and Jiren is above a God of Destruction, not equal to them. Jiren is stated to be above the God of Destruction state. Toppo became a God of Destruction and Jiren was obviously stronger than him, which again goes back to what was said before and during the tournament.

Belmod was worried about how Jiren's ability to handle the Spirit Bomb and Belmod knows that Jiren is stronger than him. While Belmod said that the Spirit Bomb worried him, it was a piece of cake for Jiren even while he was heavily suppressed. And at that point Whis concluded that Jiren's power was like a God and has even surpassed the state as a whole. There isn't anything supporting the Gods being "on par" with Jiren.

Belmod also freaked out about vegeta's final flash in episode 122 , i don't think his freaking out can be taken as power scaling evidence, he's just worried about his ace. Even Beerus was freaked out over Anilaza but I don't think Anilaza could actually give beerus any issues

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 am

It's not stated anywhere that the Final Flash is weaker than Belmod or any God of Destruction. Would a God be able to erase it with their own technique? Yes. Is it weaker than them? No.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by BlueVegerot » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:09 pm

According to an animedia spread put out by Toei, 3rd trigger omen goku >=Beerus and Belmod was implied by Whis to be stronger than Beerus which puts him around 3rd trigger omen level.

Final Flash amps your power 3-4 times at most so yes there's enough evidence to suggest that neither the spirit bomb or vegeta final flash in episode 122 are anywhere near the full power of hakaishins.

The spirit bomb was weaker than 1st time ui omen and vegeta final flash may have had force rivaling the spirit bomb

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:27 pm

Nowhere was it stated that UI Goku was barely stronger than Beerus, nowhere is it stated that the Final Flash was only 3-4x stronger than Vegeta's normal Blue level.

Nowhere was the Final Flash compared to the Spirit Bomb. Nowhere did anyone express worry about the Final Flash beating Jiren. Only shock about Vegeta's power being higher than before.
Again, Belmod was worried about Jiren's ability to handle the Spirit Bomb and he easily handled it while heavily suppressed. If a God can handle the Spirit Bomb or that Final Flash they aren't doing it with Jiren's level of ease, not even close.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by BlueVegerot » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:48 pm

You keep using the word nowhere but i don't think you know what that means.

An animedia spread put out BY toei said 3rd trigger omen might be stronger than beerus. Thats not nowhere

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/9716 ... 60?lang=en

We know exactly how much final flash amps your power because it was directly shown in the saiyan arc. Vegeta's humongous power increase wasn't from the final flash it was from jiren provoking his pride which caused him to power up massively.

Against spirit bomb < 1st omen < 2nd omen < 3rd omen. This isn't complicated. The genki dama or final flash are nowhere near GoD tier.

Even 2nd trigger omen was stated by the kai from u5 as goku "attempting to approach the state of the GoDs"

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:28 pm

That blurb doesn't state that Goku is barely stronger. "Might be stronger" doesn't quantify anything and only points to something that could be true. It doesn't mean that Goku is only barely stronger in the event that he is stronger. And I don't know where you're getting "3rd UI Omen" from. The blurb just looks to be referencing UI Goku in general.

Again Belmod thought that the Spirit Bomb would be trouble for someone stronger than him and it was something that worried him. Jiren handled something that worried Belmod while heavily suppressed. So neither Belmod or any of the Gods of Destruction are handling the Spirit Bomb as well as Jiren was.

So heavily suppressed Jiren is a power that is above Belmod as shown and above the state of God of Destruction as stated by Whis.
Again, not hard to understand. You would understand that if you read the story and didn't try to disingenuously misinterpret a blurb.
A Spirit Bomb vs God of Destruction clash probably look like is something like SSBE Vegeta's Final Explosion vs Toppo's Destruction Energy Ball where the Gods win the clash after a lot of effort.

You could claim that that the Gods are at a level where they could handle the Spirit Bomb with their Destruction Energy since Whis stated that Jiren was "like a God", but that's the most one could claim. And they wouldn't be anywhere near as casual handling it as Jiren was.

Approaching the "State of the Gods" in that context has nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction. That's a reference to Ultra Instinct which Goku had yet to fully attain since it wasn't complete. It's just a general statement since UI is usually something only a God can attain.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by BlueVegerot » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:41 pm

Your interpretations are on you taking every single thing at face value.

Remember when gowasu said ssj2 goku rivaled a GoD?

Remember when Sidra said SSB Goku has power that rivals gods?

Remember when Sidra was told he wouldn't easily be able to destroy golden freeza?

If i took every single thing at face value then i would put the range of GoDs from as low as ssj2 goku (start of goku black arc) to ssb goku ( pre ToP).

Jiren wasn't even using a hint of his power in episode 109-110 so by this logic jiren has to be tens to hundreds of times stronger than GoDs when he's at full power if you think suppressed jiren >= GoDs

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:39 pm

Gowasu never said anything about SSJ2 Goku specifically rivaling a God. Beerus stated that Goku fought him before and Gowasu was amazed that Goku fought him and wasn't dead. Based on that he deduced that Goku rivaled Beerus.

Yes, SSB Goku was stated to rival the Gods by Roh. Unless you're claiming that the story tried to mislead the viewers, he does. This isn't complicated.

Roh stated that Sidra wouldn't be able to destroy Frieza easily. Again, this isn't complicated. Toei isn't trying to mislead the viewers and the story isn't lying.
And it's backed up by things like Frieza withstanding Toppo's Destruction Energy. The story doesn't say that Sidra can't erase Frieza. It's just saying that he can't do it easily.

There isn't anything going against the idea of Jiren being a lot stronger than the Gods other than people saying that he can't. If a heavily suppressed Jiren easily handled something that worried Belmod, then Jiren at that point was above Belmod. And it's congruent with what Whis states while the Spirit Bomb clash is occurring.

People are stretching the statement of "UI Goku might be stronger than Beerus" to mean that the two are rivals even though the term within itself means no such thing by definition. "Might be stronger" isn't synonymous with "barely stronger". These terms don't share a definition.

"Might be stronger" means that it's possible that X is stronger than Y. It's only meant to bring up the possibility of something, not to quantify a gap.

"Barely stronger" means that X is only slightly stronger than Y. This isn't what was stated. This can be a reason that "Might be stronger" was said, but that's context dependent.

It isn't stated that Goku is barely stronger than Beerus. Jiren is stronger than the Gods and UI Goku was far beyond him before he awakened his hidden power, so there's no ">=" relationship between Goku and the Gods. They aren't even close.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:08 pm

Toppo directly stated that he had to be careful not to kill his opponents when using his Hakaishin powers.
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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:13 pm

No, the closest thing he ever said to that was him saying he could easily kill Final Form Frieza after he grabbed him but doing so would get him disqualified. At no point was it stated that Toppo held back against Vegeta. At this point you're just denying what's blatantly shown which is that Vegeta was stronger than Toppo during their fight. There is no alternative explanation.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:34 pm

As for the OP's actual question, I could see Vegeta pursuing training to learn how to utilize Hakai Energy under Whis's tutelage since he wants to attain power beyond Goku's Ultra Instinct and surpass his age-old rival in a different way than simply following Goku's methods/forms.

Of course, he could also just as easily decide to get stronger without Hakai Energy or Ultra Instinct, at all.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:23 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:No. I don't see why Vegeta would need a new form since his current power is already above a God of Destruction.

Goku was able to use Destruction Energy in the manga, so Vegeta wouldn't need a new form to use the energy. Destruction Energy is just a specific application of God ki.

Using the energy is likely as simple as having the skill to manipulate God ki into Destruction Energy and being at a certain power threshold.
In the anime, Vegeta has SSBE. In the manga, Goku has Hakai energy. These are completely separate stories and you can't just lump them together and use them to explain each other.

Additionally, there's no reason to believe Vegeta surpassed any GoD other than Toppo.
BlueVegerot wrote:Your interpretations are on you taking every single thing at face value.

Remember when gowasu said ssj2 goku rivaled a GoD?

Remember when Sidra said SSB Goku has power that rivals gods?

Remember when Sidra was told he wouldn't easily be able to destroy golden freeza?

If i took every single thing at face value then i would put the range of GoDs from as low as ssj2 goku (start of goku black arc) to ssb goku ( pre ToP).

Jiren wasn't even using a hint of his power in episode 109-110 so by this logic jiren has to be tens to hundreds of times stronger than GoDs when he's at full power if you think suppressed jiren >= GoDs
GREAT post. Well said.

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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:02 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:As for the OP's actual question, I could see Vegeta pursuing training to learn how to utilize Hakai Energy under Whis's tutelage since he wants to attain power beyond Goku's Ultra Instinct and surpass his age-old rival in a different way than simply following Goku's methods/forms.

Of course, he could also just as easily decide to get stronger without Hakai Energy or Ultra Instinct, at all.
At least someone answered the question, and didn't try to divert away with head canon about how Vegeta can somehow be stronger than the entirety of the Hakaishin with almost zero evidence/pure speculation.
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Re: Super Saiyan God Of Destruction?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:15 pm

That line implies that he was holding back, unless you think he was unwilling to kill Freeza and be disqualified but was perfectly willing to be disqualified for killing Vegeta.
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