Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

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Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:17 pm

Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Rakurai » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:56 pm

Hulk10 wrote:Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.

Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:55 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.

Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans. If anything Broly should be a special case. And in the video games Vegeta can access his SS4 form at will too and in the DBH manga.

The staff of dragonballwikia.com think that means that the form can't normally be accessed at will.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:04 pm

You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:05 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:25 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.
In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".

Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:28 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.
In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".

Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
Oh yeah I remember seeing a manga image about DBH with Vegeta going SSJ4. And Vegeta's response is different in the dubbed version, saying. "I could ask you the same question."
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Rakurai » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:56 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.

Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans. If anything Broly should be a special case. And in the video games Vegeta can access his SS4 form at will too and in the DBH manga.

The staff of dragonballwikia.com think that means that the form can't normally be accessed at will.
Games are not canon to GT. In GT, Vegeta can't go SSJ4 at will. They give us no further explanation than that.
shadowfox87 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.
In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".

Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
Vegeta being able to go SSJ4 from base at will is nonsense. The implication of that scene is that Vegeta can't access SSJ4 at will, Goku can. In fact, he simply reverted back without an indication it was due to stamina drain. Vegeta needs the Blutz waves.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:21 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.

Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans. If anything Broly should be a special case. And in the video games Vegeta can access his SS4 form at will too and in the DBH manga.

The staff of dragonballwikia.com think that means that the form can't normally be accessed at will.
Games are not canon to GT. In GT, Vegeta can't go SSJ4 at will. They give us no further explanation than that.
shadowfox87 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.
In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".

Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
Vegeta being able to go SSJ4 from base at will is nonsense. The implication of that scene is that Vegeta can't access SSJ4 at will, Goku can. In fact, he simply reverted back without an indication it was due to stamina drain. Vegeta needs the Blutz waves.
The storylines aren't canon, that doesn't mean Vegeta going SSJ4 from base at will is impossible. And that scene does not imply that SSJ4 can't be accessed at will.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by TheMikado » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:33 pm

From what I understand the glands for the oozaru form are in the tail, thus prompting the reaction.

Given that we could assume the concentration of blutz wave replaces whatever the tail does and induces the form on its own. In Gokus case he’s had a tail and the associated glands. Possibly he had enough exposure where he can induce it on his own through his tail,

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:44 pm

TheMikado wrote:From what I understand the glands for the oozaru form are in the tail, thus prompting the reaction.

Given that we could assume the concentration of blutz wave replaces whatever the tail does and induces the form on its own. In Gokus case he’s had a tail and the associated glands. Possibly he had enough exposure where he can induce it on his own through his tail,
Hmm good theory, though the video games and Dragon Ball Heroes Manga and Anime imply you don't need the tail to transform at will. :think:
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:08 pm

Golden Ozaru+Control=Super Saiyan 4.
Vegeta Baby didn't transform because Vegeta wasn't technically in-control, which probably meant the necessary neurotransmitter necessary to trigger the transformation didn't activate

It's worth noting that:
1. Vegeta still didn't have a tail when he transformed back. A tail might be needed for a straight Normal->SS4 transformation(once it has been unlocked)
2. Goku is all kind of weird because he changes not only clothes but AGE going from kid to adult and back.
(unless the SS4 form is automatically "adult" no matter the actual age)

About DBHeroes:
Broly was turned into SS4 by Black Smoke Shenron, IIRC
Gohan did turn straight tail-less Super Saiyan->SS4 in one opening, but they aren't canon. I have no idea what actually happens in the game.
SS4 Bardock came out from a time-rift, apparently he's a warrior that is not supposed to exist
Goku:Xeno and Vegeta:Xeno can turn SS4 at will, somehow.

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:19 pm

The tail just acts like a receiver to receive the electromagnetic waves which are at a specific frequency called the blutz waves. As long as one absorbs these waves, it can trigger the transformation into the Oozaru. The blutz waves enter through the eyes and the tail, correspondingly reacts which sends a signal to the rest of the cells in the body to hypertrophy. Once the number of waves reaches past 17 million, it's enough to cause the transformation.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Rakurai » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:28 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
The storylines aren't canon, that doesn't mean Vegeta going SSJ4 from base at will is impossible. And that scene does not imply that SSJ4 can't be accessed at will.
SSJ5 isn't impossible either. But the fact remains that GT stated Vegeta cannot go SSJ4 without the Blutz Waves. Anything beyond that is headcanon unless we are given a new official GT guide stating otherwise.

The last one we got was the GT Perfect Files Vol. 2. And guess what it says:

Image

"Goku can deliberately transform into a Super Saiyan 4, but Vegeta can't without using the machine that emanates Blutz Waves."
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:42 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
The storylines aren't canon, that doesn't mean Vegeta going SSJ4 from base at will is impossible. And that scene does not imply that SSJ4 can't be accessed at will.
SSJ5 isn't impossible either. But the fact remains that GT stated Vegeta cannot go SSJ4 without the Blutz Waves. Anything beyond that is headcanon unless we are given a new official GT guide stating otherwise.

The last one we got was the GT Perfect Files Vol. 2. And guess what it says:

Image

"Goku can deliberately transform into a Super Saiyan 4, but Vegeta can't without using the machine that emanates Blutz Waves."
I see, but I don't see how Vegeta being unable to transform without Blutz Waves means that the SSJ4 of all other Saiyans requires Blutz Waves to transform even after they achieve it. I also think that Vegeta could eventually learn to transform at well, especially since the games show it.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:28 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.
But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans.
Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:37 am

sintzu wrote:Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:48 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
sintzu wrote:Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?
I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:51 pm

sintzu wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
sintzu wrote:Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?
I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.
Its unlikely they will introduce it and yeah you would think he would keep his tail and be able to transform at will. I don't know if having the tail pulled out would make it so one could transform at will.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:08 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
sintzu wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote: Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?
I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.
Its unlikely they will introduce it and yeah you would think he would keep his tail and be able to transform at will. I don't know if having the tail pulled out would make it so one could transform at will.
If Broly can be brought on board then anything can.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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