Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

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Hulk10
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:25 pm

sintzu wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
sintzu wrote:
I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.
Its unlikely they will introduce it and yeah you would think he would keep his tail and be able to transform at will. I don't know if having the tail pulled out would make it so one could transform at will.
If Broly can be brought on board then anything can.
True but lets be honest Toriyama said he preferred simpler designs.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by sintzu » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:58 am

Hulk10 wrote:Lets be honest Toriyama said he preferred simpler designs.
That's when he's designing things which wouldn't be the case with Ssj4 as it's already an established design.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Tectorman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:37 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:2. Goku is all kind of weird because he changes not only clothes but AGE going from kid to adult and back.
(unless the SS4 form is automatically "adult" no matter the actual age)
I don't think he's changing his age so much as his SSJ4 form is overpowering the wish by the Black Star Dragon. We know that wishes granted by dragons have upper limits on what they can do depending on how powerful the person they're trying to affect is.

Shenron couldn't kill the Saiyans heading for Earth.
Porunga couldn't bring Goku back to Earth without his permission.
Dende-upgraded Shenron couldn't revert the Androids to being human.
Upgraded Porunga could only restore so much of Goku's energy (enough for SSJ but not SSJ3).

So I always thought SSJ4 Goku's adult look was just his power level becoming too great for the Black Star Dragon's magic to do anything with.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:27 am

Tectorman wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:2. Goku is all kind of weird because he changes not only clothes but AGE going from kid to adult and back.
(unless the SS4 form is automatically "adult" no matter the actual age)
I don't think he's changing his age so much as his SSJ4 form is overpowering the wish by the Black Star Dragon.
that means the wish is a continuous effect, which has not been the case fo any other wish

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Tectorman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:13 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:2. Goku is all kind of weird because he changes not only clothes but AGE going from kid to adult and back.
(unless the SS4 form is automatically "adult" no matter the actual age)
I don't think he's changing his age so much as his SSJ4 form is overpowering the wish by the Black Star Dragon.
that means the wish is a continuous effect, which has not been the case fo any other wish
And no Bird of Prey prior to the one in Star Trek VI could fire while cloaked. Your point?

That's not me trying to be sarcastic, either. Is it stated anywhere that dragon-granted wishes cannot be continuous? Heck, if anything, Shenron's inability to rez people that have already been rezzed before argues for the possibility of continuous effects. True, the restoration of their lives is instantaneous, but the "taint" (for lack of a better word) of having been rezzed once already sticks with them.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:57 pm

Who knows? Like many things about transformations in this series, things are open to debate. At least that's how I see it. I don't see the logic behind the aging up thing.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:52 am

If a Saiyan has no tail, then they need to be exposed to 17 million blutz waves to their body using a machine like the one Bulma created. This will automatically induce a transformation to Oozaru. However, this is not sufficient. They must turn into a Golden Oozaru which requires that they have already achieved a SSJ before. As a Golden Oozaru, they then need to gain control and condense that Golden Oozaru into SSJ4.

The other way is that if they have a tail naturally, the tail absorbs the blutz waves from a moon or artificial ball of energy. Then, the same process needs to happen.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:58 am

And then they should be able to transform at will after achieving SS4.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:06 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:They must turn into a Golden Oozaru which requires that they have already achieved a SSJ before.
I'm unsure about this.

I'm thinking a strong enough Saiyan might turn into a Golden Ozaru even if they never transformed before in Super Saiyan.
After all, Super Saiyan is a transformation of Rage, and uncontrolled Ozarus are nothing but raging monsters.

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:29 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:They must turn into a Golden Oozaru which requires that they have already achieved a SSJ before.
I'm unsure about this.

I'm thinking a strong enough Saiyan might turn into a Golden Ozaru even if they never transformed before in Super Saiyan.
After all, Super Saiyan is a transformation of Rage, and uncontrolled Ozarus are nothing but raging monsters.
If that were true, then all of the Saiyans on Planet Vegeta would have turned into Golden Oozarus and would have easily defeated Freeza's forces. Saiyans have been conquering planets for a long time and they learned to turn into Oozarus, even utilizing an artificial ball of energy if the planet doesn't have a moon. It's not simply rage that is needed to turn into a Super Saiyan. As we learned from Toriyama, S-cells are also needed. S-cells can only be increased in a gentle environment or one that is of a pure heart.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Pantalones » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:53 pm

I'm unsure about this.

I'm thinking a strong enough Saiyan might turn into a Golden Ozaru even if they never transformed before in Super Saiyan.
After all, Super Saiyan is a transformation of Rage, and uncontrolled Ozarus are nothing but raging monsters.
I figure this could work for a Saiyan who already met the requirements of becoming a Super Saiyan but just hadn't transformed yet for whatever reason -- like, say, Cabba or Caulifla or Kale if somebody used the Dragonballs to wish that they would have tails like the 7th Universe Saiyans rather than being born tailless like the younger generation of hybrids.

So I guess it wouldn't be so much "needs to have gone SSj before" as "needs to be able to go SSj" -- whether or not they actually have. So let's say Goku's tail gets wished back while they're on Namek in the middle of fighting Freeza, and then Vegeta throws up a fake moon... there you go, Golden Oozaru Goku!

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:42 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:They must turn into a Golden Oozaru which requires that they have already achieved a SSJ before.
I'm unsure about this.

I'm thinking a strong enough Saiyan might turn into a Golden Ozaru even if they never transformed before in Super Saiyan.
After all, Super Saiyan is a transformation of Rage, and uncontrolled Ozarus are nothing but raging monsters.
If that were true, then all of the Saiyans on Planet Vegeta would have turned into Golden Oozarus and would have easily defeated Freeza's forces. Saiyans have been conquering planets for a long time and they learned to turn into Oozarus, even utilizing an artificial ball of energy if the planet doesn't have a moon. It's not simply rage that is needed to turn into a Super Saiyan. As we learned from Toriyama, S-cells are also needed. S-cells can only be increased in a gentle environment or one that is of a pure heart.
Well actually the gentle nature increases the s-cells, so does the stable environment and the last requirement is training. But yeah, I agree its not likely that a Saiyan could go Golden Oozaru if they haven't attained the Super Saiyan form. The reasons why Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Goten all ascended relatively easily, was that they had gentle natures, and they also grew up in a stable environment. Gohan, Trunks and Goten also inherited a lot of s-cells from their fathers.

Despite what Whis claims the real reason why Vegeta can't quite keep up with Goku is that Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature and he also grew up in an unstable environment, that is he spent most of his life serving Frieza in a variety of conditions many of them likely very unfavorable. So his nature and his childhood stunted Vegeta's s-cell growth, so all he has now is training to increase his s-cell count, and that is why he'll never surpass Goku.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:20 am

Hulk10 wrote: Despite what Whis claims the real reason why Vegeta can't quite keep up with Goku is that Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature and he also grew up in an unstable environment, that is he spent most of his life serving Frieza in a variety of conditions many of them likely very unfavorable. So his nature and his childhood stunted Vegeta's s-cell growth, so all he has now is training to increase his s-cell count, and that is why he'll never surpass Goku.
I don't agree with this. The reason Vegeta is behind Goku is not because he has less S-cells. Sure, that was the reason initially why Vegeta couldn't turn into a Super Saiyan, but we're way passed that now. It's evident from DBS, that Vegeta's nature has changed since he has gotten a family. He clearly cares for Bulma, Trunks, and Bulla. Being on Earth, has changed him a lot.

The reason why he's behind Goku is exactly as Whis has pointed out - he trains to much and doesn't rest. This was shown even in the Cell Saga, when he trained MORE than Goku in the ROSAT, yet he was weaker. Goku didn't even finish a full year in the ROSAT and spent the rest of the days resting, learning to control the Super Saiyan Grade 4's stamina. Goku's weakness is that he gets too overconfident and let's his guard down, but Vegeta's weakness is that he thinks too much, trains too much, and doesn't let his body rest. It's also the primary reason why Vegeta can't achieve UI either is because he's too technical of a fighter. He thinks way too much and doesn't react on instinct.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Green_Goblin » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:05 am

If they'll remove the useless intermediate transformation to Golden Great Ape which rips all the clothing to shreds, and then the further transformation into a Super Saiyan 4 with all the clothing and shoes back on only to miss the shirt, I will have no problems with it. That shift from A to B was pointless and illogical.

I would have want to see Gohan achieve it, since he has no God forms.

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:07 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote: Despite what Whis claims the real reason why Vegeta can't quite keep up with Goku is that Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature and he also grew up in an unstable environment, that is he spent most of his life serving Frieza in a variety of conditions many of them likely very unfavorable. So his nature and his childhood stunted Vegeta's s-cell growth, so all he has now is training to increase his s-cell count, and that is why he'll never surpass Goku.
I don't agree with this. The reason Vegeta is behind Goku is not because he has less S-cells. Sure, that was the reason initially why Vegeta couldn't turn into a Super Saiyan, but we're way passed that now. It's evident from DBS, that Vegeta's nature has changed since he has gotten a family. He clearly cares for Bulma, Trunks, and Bulla. Being on Earth, has changed him a lot.

The reason why he's behind Goku is exactly as Whis has pointed out - he trains to much and doesn't rest. This was shown even in the Cell Saga, when he trained MORE than Goku in the ROSAT, yet he was weaker. Goku didn't even finish a full year in the ROSAT and spent the rest of the days resting, learning to control the Super Saiyan Grade 4's stamina. Goku's weakness is that he gets too overconfident and let's his guard down, but Vegeta's weakness is that he thinks too much, trains too much, and doesn't let his body rest. It's also the primary reason why Vegeta can't achieve UI either is because he's too technical of a fighter. He thinks way too much and doesn't react on instinct.
Actually Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature. He is still very aggressive as shown when he mercilessly killed Ginyu in Tagoma's body. Not that that wasn't a strategically sound action. Whis does have a point about Vegeta not resting though. You make some valid points.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:00 am

Hulk10 wrote: Actually Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature. He is still very aggressive as shown when he mercilessly killed Ginyu in Tagoma's body. Not that that wasn't a strategically sound action. Whis does have a point about Vegeta not resting though. You make some valid points.
That's only when it comes to his own enemies. Of course he has to be aggressive towards his enemies. When he was fighting Toppo, we saw how Vegeta values his family more than power alone. The aggressive nature towards enemies is not what counts, but that he has a pure heart genuinely and cares for something other than himself.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:14 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote: Actually Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature. He is still very aggressive as shown when he mercilessly killed Ginyu in Tagoma's body. Not that that wasn't a strategically sound action. Whis does have a point about Vegeta not resting though. You make some valid points.
That's only when it comes to his own enemies. Of course he has to be aggressive towards his enemies. When he was fighting Toppo, we saw how Vegeta values his family more than power alone. The aggressive nature towards enemies is not what counts, but that he has a pure heart genuinely and cares for something other than himself.
Uh actually he is not pure of heart like Goku. He has a good heart, but not a pure one. Bulma is a good person and so is Master Roshi, but neither of them are pure of heart.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:32 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote: Actually Vegeta doesn't have a gentle nature. He is still very aggressive as shown when he mercilessly killed Ginyu in Tagoma's body. Not that that wasn't a strategically sound action. Whis does have a point about Vegeta not resting though. You make some valid points.
That's only when it comes to his own enemies. Of course he has to be aggressive towards his enemies. When he was fighting Toppo, we saw how Vegeta values his family more than power alone. The aggressive nature towards enemies is not what counts, but that he has a pure heart genuinely and cares for something other than himself.
Uh actually he is not pure of heart like Goku. He has a good heart, but not a pure one. Bulma is a good person and so is Master Roshi, but neither of them are pure of heart.
According to his participation in the SSG ritual, he is pure of heart.

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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:24 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
That's only when it comes to his own enemies. Of course he has to be aggressive towards his enemies. When he was fighting Toppo, we saw how Vegeta values his family more than power alone. The aggressive nature towards enemies is not what counts, but that he has a pure heart genuinely and cares for something other than himself.
Uh actually he is not pure of heart like Goku. He has a good heart, but not a pure one. Bulma is a good person and so is Master Roshi, but neither of them are pure of heart.
According to his participation in the SSG ritual, he is pure of heart.
Actually the requirement is that 5 Saiyans with RIGHTEOUS not pure hearts channel their power into one. I can see why you might think that means pure of heart.

However I don't seeing as none of us is going to convince the other I see no reason to continue this particular line of debate.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements

Post by Pantalones » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:40 pm

If they'll remove the useless intermediate transformation to Golden Great Ape which rips all the clothing to shreds, and then the further transformation into a Super Saiyan 4 with all the clothing and shoes back on only to miss the shirt, I will have no problems with it. That shift from A to B was pointless and illogical.
Yeah, the "magic pants/shoes" are a little absurd, and probably my only real issue with SSj4's design (I think it'd look better with brown fur, or at least a darker shade of red rather than the weird bright red it sometimes has, but that's a fairly minor complaint.)

I figure, why not just go a little more in the great ape direction for SSJ4's design and have their lower body covered with fur instead of mysteriously appearing pants from nowhere?

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