Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
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Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.Hulk10 wrote:Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.
SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!
SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans. If anything Broly should be a special case. And in the video games Vegeta can access his SS4 form at will too and in the DBH manga.Rakurai wrote:Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.Hulk10 wrote:Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
The staff of dragonballwikia.com think that means that the form can't normally be accessed at will.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
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Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".Hulk10 wrote:I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Oh yeah I remember seeing a manga image about DBH with Vegeta going SSJ4. And Vegeta's response is different in the dubbed version, saying. "I could ask you the same question."shadowfox87 wrote:In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".Hulk10 wrote:I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Games are not canon to GT. In GT, Vegeta can't go SSJ4 at will. They give us no further explanation than that.Hulk10 wrote:But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans. If anything Broly should be a special case. And in the video games Vegeta can access his SS4 form at will too and in the DBH manga.Rakurai wrote:Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.Hulk10 wrote:Is the mention of Blutz Waves being necessary to access SS4 after it is first achieved in the subbed anime enough to assume that its a requirement? Given that no other source supports that I'm thinking its not.
Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
The staff of dragonballwikia.com think that means that the form can't normally be accessed at will.
Vegeta being able to go SSJ4 from base at will is nonsense. The implication of that scene is that Vegeta can't access SSJ4 at will, Goku can. In fact, he simply reverted back without an indication it was due to stamina drain. Vegeta needs the Blutz waves.shadowfox87 wrote:In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".Hulk10 wrote:I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.shadowfox87 wrote:You shouldn't go by wikia and actually watch GT yourself. Bulma designs the machine that emits 17 million blutz waves to turn Vegeta into a Golden Oozaru. He didn't just turn into an SSJ4 immediately after being exposed to blutz waves. Vegeta stated that the reason he didn't turn into an SSJ4 when he was Golden Oozaru before was because Baby was inside his body. He still needed the Golden Oozaru as an intermediate state before he could control and then turn into SSJ4. Vegeta has been shown later to turn into SSJ4 from base.
Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.
SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!
SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
The storylines aren't canon, that doesn't mean Vegeta going SSJ4 from base at will is impossible. And that scene does not imply that SSJ4 can't be accessed at will.Rakurai wrote:Games are not canon to GT. In GT, Vegeta can't go SSJ4 at will. They give us no further explanation than that.Hulk10 wrote:But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans. If anything Broly should be a special case. And in the video games Vegeta can access his SS4 form at will too and in the DBH manga.Rakurai wrote:
Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.
Goku, on the other hand, obviously can. It's not exactly clear why though. Vegeta retorts saying because Goku's a special case, that's literally it.
The staff of dragonballwikia.com think that means that the form can't normally be accessed at will.
Vegeta being able to go SSJ4 from base at will is nonsense. The implication of that scene is that Vegeta can't access SSJ4 at will, Goku can. In fact, he simply reverted back without an indication it was due to stamina drain. Vegeta needs the Blutz waves.shadowfox87 wrote:In Episode 59, Vegeta transforms into a regular Oozaru after being exposed to blutz waves, then a Golden Oozaru and then into SSJ4. Then he fuses with Goku into SSJ4 Gogeta. In Episode 62, he runs out of energy and goes back to base. He asks Bulma for blutz waves to help him transform back into SSJ4. It is here that Goku asks Vegeta, "Can't you turn into SSJ4 without using blutz waves?" Vegeta responds, "Shut up, you're a special case that can go into SSJ4 whenever you want".Hulk10 wrote:
I did watch GT. And when did Vegeta turn into SSJ4 from base? I personally don't agree with the wiki but I can't make any headway with the staff in convincing them.
Here, both Goku and Vegeta are out of energy and so neither of them can transform into SSJ4. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't transform into SSJ4 himself from base. GT concludes with Episode 64, so we never get a chance to see if Vegeta transforms into SSJ4. The only time we see it is in SDBH which uses people from the GT timeline at the conclusion as part of the Time Patrol. In SDBH, Vegeta does transform from base to SSJ4. In fact, in the current SDBH anime, you will see SSJ4 Vegetto in Universe Mission 5.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
From what I understand the glands for the oozaru form are in the tail, thus prompting the reaction.
Given that we could assume the concentration of blutz wave replaces whatever the tail does and induces the form on its own. In Gokus case he’s had a tail and the associated glands. Possibly he had enough exposure where he can induce it on his own through his tail,
Given that we could assume the concentration of blutz wave replaces whatever the tail does and induces the form on its own. In Gokus case he’s had a tail and the associated glands. Possibly he had enough exposure where he can induce it on his own through his tail,
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Hmm good theory, though the video games and Dragon Ball Heroes Manga and Anime imply you don't need the tail to transform at will.TheMikado wrote:From what I understand the glands for the oozaru form are in the tail, thus prompting the reaction.
Given that we could assume the concentration of blutz wave replaces whatever the tail does and induces the form on its own. In Gokus case he’s had a tail and the associated glands. Possibly he had enough exposure where he can induce it on his own through his tail,
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Golden Ozaru+Control=Super Saiyan 4.
Vegeta Baby didn't transform because Vegeta wasn't technically in-control, which probably meant the necessary neurotransmitter necessary to trigger the transformation didn't activate
It's worth noting that:
1. Vegeta still didn't have a tail when he transformed back. A tail might be needed for a straight Normal->SS4 transformation(once it has been unlocked)
2. Goku is all kind of weird because he changes not only clothes but AGE going from kid to adult and back.
(unless the SS4 form is automatically "adult" no matter the actual age)
About DBHeroes:
Broly was turned into SS4 by Black Smoke Shenron, IIRC
Gohan did turn straight tail-less Super Saiyan->SS4 in one opening, but they aren't canon. I have no idea what actually happens in the game.
SS4 Bardock came out from a time-rift, apparently he's a warrior that is not supposed to exist
Goku:Xeno and Vegeta:Xeno can turn SS4 at will, somehow.
Vegeta Baby didn't transform because Vegeta wasn't technically in-control, which probably meant the necessary neurotransmitter necessary to trigger the transformation didn't activate
It's worth noting that:
1. Vegeta still didn't have a tail when he transformed back. A tail might be needed for a straight Normal->SS4 transformation(once it has been unlocked)
2. Goku is all kind of weird because he changes not only clothes but AGE going from kid to adult and back.
(unless the SS4 form is automatically "adult" no matter the actual age)
About DBHeroes:
Broly was turned into SS4 by Black Smoke Shenron, IIRC
Gohan did turn straight tail-less Super Saiyan->SS4 in one opening, but they aren't canon. I have no idea what actually happens in the game.
SS4 Bardock came out from a time-rift, apparently he's a warrior that is not supposed to exist
Goku:Xeno and Vegeta:Xeno can turn SS4 at will, somehow.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
The tail just acts like a receiver to receive the electromagnetic waves which are at a specific frequency called the blutz waves. As long as one absorbs these waves, it can trigger the transformation into the Oozaru. The blutz waves enter through the eyes and the tail, correspondingly reacts which sends a signal to the rest of the cells in the body to hypertrophy. Once the number of waves reaches past 17 million, it's enough to cause the transformation.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
SSJ5 isn't impossible either. But the fact remains that GT stated Vegeta cannot go SSJ4 without the Blutz Waves. Anything beyond that is headcanon unless we are given a new official GT guide stating otherwise.Hulk10 wrote:
The storylines aren't canon, that doesn't mean Vegeta going SSJ4 from base at will is impossible. And that scene does not imply that SSJ4 can't be accessed at will.
The last one we got was the GT Perfect Files Vol. 2. And guess what it says:
"Goku can deliberately transform into a Super Saiyan 4, but Vegeta can't without using the machine that emanates Blutz Waves."
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.
SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!
SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
I see, but I don't see how Vegeta being unable to transform without Blutz Waves means that the SSJ4 of all other Saiyans requires Blutz Waves to transform even after they achieve it. I also think that Vegeta could eventually learn to transform at well, especially since the games show it.Rakurai wrote:SSJ5 isn't impossible either. But the fact remains that GT stated Vegeta cannot go SSJ4 without the Blutz Waves. Anything beyond that is headcanon unless we are given a new official GT guide stating otherwise.Hulk10 wrote:
The storylines aren't canon, that doesn't mean Vegeta going SSJ4 from base at will is impossible. And that scene does not imply that SSJ4 can't be accessed at will.
The last one we got was the GT Perfect Files Vol. 2. And guess what it says:
"Goku can deliberately transform into a Super Saiyan 4, but Vegeta can't without using the machine that emanates Blutz Waves."
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.Hulk10 wrote:But that makes no sense as Goku and Vegeta are average Saiyans.Rakurai wrote:Vegeta mentions that he can't access it at will after his SSJ4 transformation wears off. He needs the Blutz Waves.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
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Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?sintzu wrote:Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.BlueBasilisk wrote:Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?sintzu wrote:Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
Its unlikely they will introduce it and yeah you would think he would keep his tail and be able to transform at will. I don't know if having the tail pulled out would make it so one could transform at will.sintzu wrote:I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.BlueBasilisk wrote:Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?sintzu wrote:Vegeta didn't get his tail pulled out like Goku so if he decides to do that he shouldn't have any trouble using it.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements
If Broly can be brought on board then anything can.Hulk10 wrote:Its unlikely they will introduce it and yeah you would think he would keep his tail and be able to transform at will. I don't know if having the tail pulled out would make it so one could transform at will.sintzu wrote:I have no idea. I understand Goku needing the tail to absorb the waves from the planet but with Vegeta finding a way to force them in him through Bulma's machine you'd think he would've just kept his tail. I guess Goku (seemingly) becoming one with Shenron wasn't enough for GT's writers so they made the ability to use Ssj4 at will exclusive to him on top of that. Vegeta will get to use it whenever he wants once Toriyama (hopefully) decides to reintroduce it in Super.BlueBasilisk wrote: Why can't he just keep the one that sprouts from his butt when he goes SS4?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.