Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

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Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:00 pm

The first time it's seen, Goku just uses SSJ3 to buy time for Trunks, not necessarily to actually fight, let alone defeat Boo; he really could've just used SSJ2 for that. The next time we see SSJ3 is when Gotenks uses it to punch a hole between dimensions(an actual legit reason to use it), and then battle Super Boo to a rough stalemate with Gotenks having the slight advantage. The last time SSJ3 is used for any real purpose is when Goku fights Pure Boo(although the anime depicts Goku as being on par with Pure Boo with the SSJ2 form), but it serves little in actually defeating Boo due to Goku just-then having discovered the stamina problem with it. Aside from Gotenks using the form as a plot device to escape the ROSAT dimension, was there any real reason for SSJ3 to exist in the Boo arc???
Goku reveals that he could've just used the form to destroy the Fat Boo, but he simply didn't because he wanted Trunks & Goten to be the ones to succeed over Boo(which was a total retcon of his earlier statement to Piccolo that he couldn't have defeated Boo even with SSJ3) so it was a totally missed opportunity there due to Goku's questionable decision-making. SSJ3 Gotenks had the slight advantage over Boo, but he revealed that he was just screwing around anyways because he could sense Gohan's power from afar, and just wanted to buy time until Gohan arrived so the usage of SSJ3 in that case was hardly justified besides making Gotenks merely look powerful. SSJ3 Goku & Pure Boo's fight actually had some real stakes to it, but in the end, Goku couldn't win because he had zero clue that the form sapped his energy too quickly(which seems really stupid even for Goku to miss an obvious problem in a form used for fighting, something he is otherwise ordinarily sensible about), and Pure Boo wasn't even fighting as absolutely hard as he could if his frequent taunting of Goku & Vegeta is anything to think about.
Did SSJ3 really even need to exist with that being said, and that the story could've just been the same if SSJ2 was used instead?
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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:37 pm

No it didn't need to exist, but it's cool. Toriyama even forgot there were 3 super saiyan forms at one point and thought there were only two, lmao.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:47 pm

Seeing how the end of the arc played out, I really don't think it was. It's somewhat useful as a measuring stick to show what a big threat Buu is, but...isn't that why Dabura's there? To show old hat vs. the new hotness? It's cool to see, but the biggest impact it and Ultimate Gohan have in the arc are the creation of Buutenks and Buuhan. The rest of the time SS3 is just buying time or stalemating against one of the Buus. It wasn't necessary to the Fusion plan or the Spirit Bomb that ultimately defeated Buu, nor has it done anything major since. The biggest accomplishment it has is defeating Hirudegarn in movie 13.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Ju-NanaGo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:20 pm

I think it was more needed than Ultimate power up and it looks cool.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Majin Jator » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:08 pm

Not only was unnecessary, but the series would be better without it.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Lupin Vegeta » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:37 pm

no, but you could make this kind of argument for pretty much anything that only shows up in one arc

and the fact that toei decided to make ss2 goku on par with buu is completely irrelevant

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:12 am

It doesn't strictly need to exist, but it's a nice deconstruction on the idea that a more powerful form is always going to be better. At the time, any use of Super Saiyan 3 (Gotenks aside) was incredibly draining on one's energy that meant you couldn't use it all of the time, which goes against the usual "oh hey I transformed with no drawbacks" outlook on almost any other power-up like the original Super Saiyan. It was also a nice indicator that Goku was seriously training in Other World and hadn't slowed down in the slightest.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:55 am

Gotenks' strength could be whatever the author said, if he wanted him to be as strong Super Buu with just SS1, he could have written it that way. I don't see a point for SS3 existing, it just introduces plot holes. Goku could have just stalled Buu in SS2 while amusing him with tricks like the Solar Flare and Warp Kamehameha (since we know SS2 Vegeta could slightly hurt him with amplified attacks) and talking to him in a friendly manner (as opposed to Vegeta, who made him angry and so immediately got rolled). The only legitimate use I see for it is the climax, as Goku needs to have a decent fight with Buu before resorting to the Genki-Dama and Vegeta needs to be inferior to Goku for that "you're #1" speech to carry proper weight. But I feel like that could've been accomplished by just making Pure Buu weaker than Fat Buu (whose power split between him and Good Buu) and having Vegeta lose the power-up Babidi gave him, respectively.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:40 am

To me the plot holes come from the handling of SS3, not the form itself.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Black Hawk » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:54 am

The way I see it, SSJ3 wasn't a binding necessity of the Boo arc but it helped to establish that fusion was the true trump card and that simply transforming wasn't enough to get the job done. As RandomGuy96 stated, Toriyama could have written the power scaling however he wanted to, whether that meant SSJ1 Gotenks was enough to take on Evil Boo or SSJ2 Goku used all of the techniques he learned over the course of the series to stall Boo. At the end of the day, fusion was what really gave the main characters the edge over Boo, be it Gotenks or Vegetto; even Boo's absorbing habit emphasized fusion in a different manner. In the end, fusion wasn't what finished Boo off, but it was emphasized a lot more than transforming was; Vegetto didn't even transform beyond the initial Super Saiyajin state. I honestly really love Future Trunks' upgraded SSJ2 from the Zero Mortals Plan arc of the Super manga because it almost seems like a "right way" of ascending beyond SSJ2 as opposed to how SSJ3 was done, and I wish more had been done with it.
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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Kokonoe » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:01 am

It was needed because it brought the hype and made the manga / show much more entertaining. This is still one of the most memorable moments of the series to me.

https://youtu.be/5vWqnKhQhUM?t=43s

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:00 am

I think the point of it was to show that transformation can't solve everything like they did against Freeza and Cell so it was nice to see Goku and Vegeta having to rely on their brains and techniques to take down Buu instead of a transformation.
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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Cipher » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:37 am

It's not completely necessary when the plot is broken down into bullet points, but as a representation of pure excess in a final arc where logic breaks down in tandem with the situation becoming more dire (in a good way), it's an inclusion I really like.

The beat with Gotenks wanting to save it for a dire moment is also A+.

It's also a clear/effective way to make Goku stronger than Vegeta, which comes into play in setting up the latter's "#1" speech in the Kaioshin Realm and resolving himself to just being there to buy time, which are essential for wrapping up his character arc.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:32 pm

It served a somewhat decent swerve to whole "Super Saiyan always save the day" trope that story leaned on very heavily after Namek, and provides the foundation for Vegeta "You're No. 1" speech, which in itself, was an incredibly important moment for Vegeta's character. But's introduction into the plot is sloppily handled, and brings several unfortunate implications the Majin Boo arc as a whole, in a thematic and character-beat sense.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by GT_Goten10 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:36 pm

Majin Buu
Kid Buu
Baby Vegeta
Beerus
Copy Vegeta
Super Buu

made SSJ3 completely useless
GT Fighter

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:47 pm

It was a trump card, and SS3 kinda made it clear that something more efficient needed to be done instead of pushing everything regular SS had to offer, so God forms happened. In a way, I guess it had a reason to exist.

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Sonofman » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:37 pm

It wasn't necessary to the plot... but did make it better in the end.

If we look at it, without Goku's SS3 transformation, the fusion technique with Goten and Trunks would be virtually worthless against Majin Buu (fat) & Super Buu, because they both are mountain times more powerful than Gotenks (normal + Super Saiyan 1). Since Goku showed the boy's his SS3, it inspired the boys to train hard to bring forth that very same power as Gotenks. Thus, they (Piccolo included) were able to get out of the time chamber and fight on par with Super Buu.

Henceforth, without the SS3 transformation, there was no way that Goku would have been able to stand a chance at fighting Kid Buu at the Kai's planet. No chance. Kid Buu was far superior to SS1 & SS2. He basically toyed around when Goku was a SS2. He may not have been as powerful as Super Buu, but he sure was still at least a bit more powerful than SS3 Goku (imo). But, because SS3 existed, Goku was able to hold his ground and push back even.

I really wished the creator would have done more for this form. It has/had so much potential and growth. Like, controlling the form like how they did with SS1. I'm sure a lot could have been enhance and maybe changed. But, the SS3 transformation will always be considered "useless" now due to it's overuse of stamina and pretty weak compared to the likes of Golden Frieza.
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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by Ssjcell » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:30 pm

Majin Jator wrote:Not only was unnecessary, but the series would be better without it.
Ss3 was awesome and your a hater

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Re: Was SSJ3 Necessary To The Plot As A Whole?

Post by AvatarReiko » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:12 am

Yes. SSJ3 is the most badass design AT has ever done.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Gotenks' strength could be whatever the author said, if he wanted him to be as strong Super Buu with just SS1, he could have written it that way. I don't see a point for SS3 existing, it just introduces plot holes. Goku could have just stalled Buu in SS2 while amusing him with tricks like the Solar Flare and Warp Kamehameha (since we know SS2 Vegeta could slightly hurt him with amplified attacks) and talking to him in a friendly manner (as opposed to Vegeta, who made him angry and so immediately got rolled). The only legitimate use I see for it is the climax, as Goku needs to have a decent fight with Buu before resorting to the Genki-Dama and Vegeta needs to be inferior to Goku for that "you're #1" speech to carry proper weight. But I feel like that could've been accomplished by just making Pure Buu weaker than Fat Buu (whose power split between him and Good Buu) and having Vegeta lose the power-up Babidi gave him, respectively.

Did you not see what Buu did to Vegeta and Gohan? Goku was absolutely no match for Buu as a SSJ2. Hence, why he was forced to go SSJ3.

There is no reason to believe that any of those parlour tricks would have worked at all. Buu would tank a Warp Kamehamaha and then just massacre Goku

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