Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Body?

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Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Body?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:41 pm

Suppose this scenario did actually did happen: Goku mentally remembers all of his techniques & transformations from the ToP arc, but will his vastly weakened, child body react to what his mind knows? Or will he have to train his body to learn everything all over again? Would be able to still use non-S Cell abilities like Kaio-ken? Instantaneous Movement? Genki Dama? Or is he stuck having to learn even those all over again too?
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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:32 pm

No, because his body physically wouldn't have the Ki to pull it off. He could probably use some techniques(e.g. Solar, Genki Dama and etc) but his SSJ forms would be out of the question. As for Kaioken, I doubt his body could handle the strain at that stage.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Pantalones » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:52 pm

Well, obviously any Super Saiyan form would be off the table since he wouldn't have enough S-cells or a high enough power level to activate it -- even in situations where the rage was there to trigger it, he just wouldn't meet the other qualifications. As for actual techniques...

Kaio-ken, almost definitely not -- from what we see in the Saiyan and Freeza sagas of DBZ, Goku became able to push the Kaio-ken further as his body got stronger, hitting an upper limit of 20 times Kaio-ken when his base form was around 3 million. Since Super Saiyan was a bigger boost with less downsides, he just stopped using Kaio-ken after that point, but chances are that he wouldn't be able to "catch up" to Super Saiyan's multiplier with the Kaio-ken considering how the level of Kaio-ken he can handle doesn't scale linearly with his actual power level (3x or 4x was his maximum at 8000ish, then 10x was his max when he reached 90,000, and then 20x was his max when he was at 3,000,000... literally becoming more than 30 times stronger only pushed his Kaio-ken tolerance to twice what it was previously. I bet even by the Buu saga Goku still wouldn't be able to use Kaio-ken x50... at least not using it freely the way he used Kaio-ken x10 during the Freeza battle.)

But anyway... since he could only handle up to 3x or 4x (and even that was with a lot of strain) when his power level was in the high thousands, I doubt he'd be able to use the Kaio-ken at all when he was a kid. Maybe by the 23rd Budokai timeframe he'd be able to pull off a short burst of basic Kaio-ken, but that's about it.

Instant Transmission should be usable so long as he was able to sense someone's ki and teleport to them.

Techniques like the Solar Flare, Spirit Bomb, etc. should also be usable.

He wouldn't be able to fly very effectively at the levels of power he had as a kid, though -- Goku uses the standard Bukujutsu rather than Piccolo's unnamed flight technique (which is what Gohan taught to Videl), and Bukujutsu uses up a lot of energy when you aren't ludicrously powerful yet, as we see from Goku still using his cloud to fly around early in DBZ even though he knows how to fly, and wearing himself out on Snake Way by trying to fly across. So early on he'd only be able to use it to do things like stop himself in midair rather than falling. Still handy in some situations, but not quite as overpowered as being able to fly freely from the very start.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Lionel » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:12 pm

Pantalones explained it best. For me, since Goku's stamina and endurance would have likely decreased as a result of his body having become less developed, the Mafuba may not be usable anymore. It's not too big of a deal since magical entrapment techniques aren't really his style to begin with, but it does technically constitute as one less ability that Goku is capable of performing.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:13 pm

Really, Goku benefits the most by way of knowing exactly what to shoot for and how to get there.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:43 pm

He could probably use kaoken by his fight with piccolo in the world tournament

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by KBABZ » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:00 pm

Pantalones wrote:Well, obviously any Super Saiyan form would be off the table since he wouldn't have enough S-cells or a high enough power level to activate it
Pantalones wrote:since he could only handle up to 3x or 4x (and even that was with a lot of strain) when his power level was in the high thousands, I doubt he'd be able to use the Kaio-ken at all when he was a kid.
Pantalones wrote:He wouldn't be able to fly very effectively at the levels of power he had as a kid, though -- Goku uses the standard Bukujutsu rather than Piccolo's unnamed flight technique (which is what Gohan taught to Videl)
As far as I was aware, none of these actually have a Power Level requirement. Super Saiyan wouldn't be possible under modern logic with the S-Cells thing, though. Kaio-Ken for me still might work with the correct training because that's much more about training the body than it is about reaching a minimum Power Level. As for flight, I had no idea that there was a distinction between Bukujitsu and what Piccolo was doing! Was that (and the strain of using Buku') stated anywhere?
Pantalones wrote:Instant Transmission should be usable so long as he was able to sense someone's ki and teleport to them.
Agreed, the way GT did it of course was a writer's handwave so he can't teleport to solve their problems.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Pantalones » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:20 am

Kaio-Ken for me still might work with the correct training because that's much more about training the body than it is about reaching a minimum Power Level.
Yeah, I suppose for Kaio-ken it's not so much "you need this much strength to use this level" so much as "someone who reaches this level of strength has toughened their body enough that they can handle this level." Someone who seems to be consistently more durable than their power level would suggest, like Nappa or Recoome (or maybe even Vegeta! just imagine that, Vegeta actually turning out to be better at Kaio-ken than Goku... XD), might have a slight advantage when it comes to using higher Kaio-ken levels without hurting themselves in the process. I still don't think kid Goku would be able to use Kaio-ken beyond the basic level and would have difficulty with even that, though, since at that age he had never gone through gravity training (which would definitely toughen up the user's body in a way that's not necessarily a power increase, though of course it makes power increases easier too) or gotten beaten half to death and recovered several times over.

Maybe he'd be able to use the lowest level of Kaio-ken after the whole "Karin gives him poison and claims it's some magic power-up water, but actually Goku just got stronger as a result of his body fighting off the poison" incident, since that seems to be one of the few "near-death boost" type scenarios shown in the original Dragonball?
As for flight, I had no idea that there was a distinction between Bukujitsu and what Piccolo was doing! Was that (and the strain of using Buku') stated anywhere?
Piccolo's flight technique isn't ever given a name as far as I'm aware, but on the way to Raditz we see Goku flying on the cloud to conserve energy (and because it's still faster than his Bukujutsu flight at this point!) while Piccolo has no difficulty at all keeping up the pace on his own, and he comments on how his technique is superior to the one the rest of the cast use (Bukujutsu.) And of course, his energy certainly doesn't seem to be depleted at all when they arrive at the battlefield considering that he's only a smidge behind Goku in raw power and capable of charging up an enormously strong Makankosappo not once, but twice without running out of energy.

In Dragonball we see that weaker (and/or less-experienced) users can only use it to stop themselves in midair rather than being able to fly freely, and only later do characters actually fly with Bukujutsu. And then in Z, Goku has to run/walk across Snake Way rather than just flying because flying for that long (at his level, anyway) would wear him out. If I'm remembering right, he does fly on the return trip, showing off just how much stronger he's become thanks to North Kaio's training. Later on we also have Goku being able to withstand the weights that the Kaios put on him during his training in the afterlife, but he's unable to continue flying with them on his arms and legs until he goes Super Saiyan -- so Bukujutsu is definitely more stressful than just standing or moving on solid ground.

I don't think it's ever been stated anywhere, but I suspect Piccolo's technique is what Gohan passed on to Videl, considering that she was only in the "stronger than Mr. Satan but still basically normal" range of power before learning how to fly and yet she's able to zip around like early-Z characters right away rather than just being able to hover in midair like Bukujutsu users such as Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan could back in their "not that superhuman" days. It would make sense considering how Gohan must have learned to fly from Piccolo, too.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by KBABZ » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:22 am

Pantalones wrote:Yeah, I suppose for Kaio-ken it's not so much "you need this much strength to use this level" so much as "someone who reaches this level of strength has toughened their body enough that they can handle this level." Someone who seems to be consistently more durable than their power level would suggest, like Nappa or Recoome (or maybe even Vegeta! just imagine that, Vegeta actually turning out to be better at Kaio-ken than Goku... XD), might have a slight advantage when it comes to using higher Kaio-ken levels without hurting themselves in the process. I still don't think kid Goku would be able to use Kaio-ken beyond the basic level and would have difficulty with even that, though, since at that age he had never gone through gravity training (which would definitely toughen up the user's body in a way that's not necessarily a power increase, though of course it makes power increases easier too) or gotten beaten half to death and recovered several times over.
Well for me the thing is that the Kaio-Ken is difficult because of the way it basically multiplies the amount of ki in the body, which of course it wouldn't be used to and you'd have to train your body to handle that amount of ki flowing through it (or at least, that's my interpretation of why it's so hard on the body). Where this comes in for Kid Goku is that A) He's a Saiyan, who tend to be quite gifted with this sort of thing, but much more importantly B) He only had a battle power of 10 for a large portion of the series. So while it is obviously an advanced technique, with the pre-existing experience of handling the ki surge through his body in his decades as an adult, it wouldn't surprise me if Goku would be able to handle at least a x3 Kaio-Ken if he fell into this thread's scenario.

Now, if it were literally a case of "Kaio shows up on Mount Paoz and tries to teach Goku the technique", then that's a much taller proposition!
Pantalones wrote:Maybe he'd be able to use the lowest level of Kaio-ken after the whole "Karin gives him poison and claims it's some magic power-up water, but actually Goku just got stronger as a result of his body fighting off the poison" incident, since that seems to be one of the few "near-death boost" type scenarios shown in the original Dragonball?
I presume you're talking about the Ultra-Divine Water? Sounds logical because when you look back on it retroactively, the poison would have triggered Goku's zenkai and the zenkai is likely the reason why he survived in the first place. But do zenkais actually influence one's durability and body training? For early Dragon Ball I feel there would have been more to it than that. It doesn't really help that in the Z half, one's battle power is often 1:1 equated to their durability (how many times have we seen a character shown as being strong by not having a scratch when taking on a big attack without defending themselves?), when in my opinion they're two linked but different aspects of training. This is even used in the plot: Vegeta allows Krillin to one-shot him on Namek by lowering his battle power, which obviously has an effect on his defences. -sigh-
Pantalones wrote:Piccolo's flight technique isn't ever given a name as far as I'm aware, but on the way to Raditz we see Goku flying on the cloud to conserve energy (and because it's still faster than his Bukujutsu flight at this point!) while Piccolo has no difficulty at all keeping up the pace on his own, and he comments on how his technique is superior to the one the rest of the cast use (Bukujutsu.) And of course, his energy certainly doesn't seem to be depleted at all when they arrive at the battlefield considering that he's only a smidge behind Goku in raw power and capable of charging up an enormously strong Makankosappo not once, but twice without running out of energy.

In Dragonball we see that weaker (and/or less-experienced) users can only use it to stop themselves in midair rather than being able to fly freely, and only later do characters actually fly with Bukujutsu. And then in Z, Goku has to run/walk across Snake Way rather than just flying because flying for that long (at his level, anyway) would wear him out. If I'm remembering right, he does fly on the return trip, showing off just how much stronger he's become thanks to North Kaio's training. Later on we also have Goku being able to withstand the weights that the Kaios put on him during his training in the afterlife, but he's unable to continue flying with them on his arms and legs until he goes Super Saiyan -- so Bukujutsu is definitely more stressful than just standing or moving on solid ground.

I don't think it's ever been stated anywhere, but I suspect Piccolo's technique is what Gohan passed on to Videl, considering that she was only in the "stronger than Mr. Satan but still basically normal" range of power before learning how to fly and yet she's able to zip around like early-Z characters right away rather than just being able to hover in midair like Bukujutsu users such as Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan could back in their "not that superhuman" days. It would make sense considering how Gohan must have learned to fly from Piccolo, too.
Huh, those are pretty good points. Looking at the Kai episode with subtitles, Piccolo does say that his technique is different from Bukujitsu, while the dub restricts it only to being compared to the Flying Nimbus (probably to avoid having to say the word Bukujitsu). In the ViZ translation of the manga Piccolo only says "The speed of my flight will speak for itself", so it's 50/50 there on whether he's talking about simply being able to use Buku' faster than the Nimbus or if he's using a different technique that's inherently faster. Funnily enough, even when Goku uses Bukujitsu to make the return trip down Snake Way after training with Kaio, it's tiring enough that he has to get a Senzu from Korin to top his ki back up and then use Nimbus the rest of the way (this also implies that Nimbus cannot be summoned in Other World!).

What's interesting is that Gohan's first use of flight is when he and Krillin depart the battlefield when Goku steps up to fight Vegeta. Prior to that he didn't use flight at all despite numerous instances against Nappa where it would have been very useful, and even the anime makes no attempt at all to show Piccolo teaching Gohan how to fly (that I know of anyway, I haven't watched those filler episodes myself). Now of course Gohan could have learnt Bukujitsu from his dad during the training for the Androids, but given how advantageous Piccolo's method is it would actually have been more likely that Gohan taught Goku Piccolo's method to help supplement Instant Transmission (that would have made for a cool episode actually). If Gohan did teach Videl Bukujitsu specifically, then I can easily imagine that Toriyama simply forgot about its logistical issues because it had been so long since that was relevant to the characters. And of course Gohan doesn't mention where he learnt the ins and outs of ki to Videl so that doesn't help.

So back to the original question, if ToP Goku were transported into his kid body in both form and ki, then whether he could fly depends on if he knew Piccolo's method of flight or was still using Bukujitsu. Given my thought process above it actually wouldn't surprise me if he knew Piccolo's method by that point due to how much better it is, which is useful when fighting in the air because you expend less ki keeping yourself up off the ground. Being much smaller as a kid would definitely help with Buku', though.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:08 pm

So, GT?

Jokes aside: no.

Of his techniques, most likely only Kaiohken would be impossible to use for him, as it requires a minimum level of body power. He'd likely die using Mafuba, though.

Transformations: Every Super Saiyan transformation would out because all of the require a minimum base power-level to trigger.
MAYBE he could go God, if it's just about converting all your Ki in God Ki.
There is a purely hypothetical chance for UI as well, but that likely requires a minimum base power-level as well.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by KBABZ » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:47 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:Of his techniques, most likely only Kaiohken would be impossible to use for him, as it requires a minimum level of body power. He'd likely die using Mafuba, though.

Transformations: Every Super Saiyan transformation would out because all of the require a minimum base power-level to trigger.
Where was this stated??

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Ssjcell » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:18 am

KBABZ wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:Of his techniques, most likely only Kaiohken would be impossible to use for him, as it requires a minimum level of body power. He'd likely die using Mafuba, though.

Transformations: Every Super Saiyan transformation would out because all of the require a minimum base power-level to trigger.
Where was this stated??
The internet used to have a theory that in order to go ssj one needs at least 100 k battle power . I think that works

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by KBABZ » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:42 am

Ssjcell wrote:The internet used to have a theory that in order to go ssj one needs at least 100 k battle power . I think that works
Well I think the casual use of it by Trunks and Goten disproves that theory. In the classical era, Super Saiyan only needed proper motivation in order to activate; it comes out of need, not strength (which I believe was a line used directly in Kai during the Cell saga when Goku trained Gohan). In the modern line of thinking you also need S-Cells that appear in a relaxed environment and mentality, which explains why none of the pre-extinction Saiyans, save for a legendary few, were ever able to achieve the feat.

I may have also been thinking about this regarding Kaio-ken, which I don't believe has ever been stated to have a minimum battle power requirement.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Rakurai » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:08 pm

We already saw some of the results with GT, as with Instant Transmission and SSJ3.

Stamina would play a huge factor into whether he could use his ki techniques or not at a greater scale. Likely ki control as well.

It's likely he could still transform into SSJ but 1) his early DB body would not be used to the transformation, 2) he wouldn't have the stamina to maintain its power drain.
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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by KBABZ » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:20 pm

Rakurai wrote:We already saw some of the results with GT, as with Instant Transmission and SSJ3.
GT does immediately come to mind, but from an out-of-universe perspective, Instant Transmission not working is basically an Obvious Rule Patch so that Goku can't just Instant Transmission himself across the galaxy to the Black Star Dragon Balls, as he was depicted warping to New Namek and to Other World at the end of the Cell arc.
Rakurai wrote:It's likely he could still transform into SSJ but 1) his early DB body would not be used to the transformation, 2) he wouldn't have the stamina to maintain its power drain.
I totally forgot about that! Yes that's a very good point, SSJ would likely be possible, but only for an instant due to the power drain, to say nothing of the later stages.

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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:06 am

KBABZ wrote:
Rakurai wrote:We already saw some of the results with GT, as with Instant Transmission and SSJ3.
GT does immediately come to mind, but from an out-of-universe perspective, Instant Transmission not working is basically an Obvious Rule Patch so that Goku can't just Instant Transmission himself across the galaxy to the Black Star Dragon Balls, as he was depicted warping to New Namek and to Other World at the end of the Cell arc.
Rakurai wrote:It's likely he could still transform into SSJ but 1) his early DB body would not be used to the transformation, 2) he wouldn't have the stamina to maintain its power drain.
I totally forgot about that! Yes that's a very good point, SSJ would likely be possible, but only for an instant due to the power drain, to say nothing of the later stages.
Yeah the IT problem never made any fucking sense to me either lol. Like he's stronger than kid Buu in base and has enough ki control to hold back his true power, but he can't teleport casually when a weaker version of himself (Android saga Goku) still could? Here's the biggest contradiction: Apparently it requires a degree of power as Piccolo had to transfer some of his in order to allow Goku to IT himself and the last kid on Earth to New Planet Plant. So now it's a stamina issue. Yet he has enough stamina to fight Rildo and overwhelm two SSJs, one which of which is stronger than Super Buu. Clear demonstration of plot-induced interference. They tried to nerf Goku but at the same time realized the nerf held back the plot progression so they sweeped it up under the rug. Well it is what it is.
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Re: Would Goku Be Able To Still Use All Of His Techniques & Transformations If His Mind Was Sent Back To His Early DB Bo

Post by Apslup » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:33 am

He wouldn't be able to use Kaio-Ken definitely since his child body would definitely wouldn't be able to handle the Kaio-Ken puts on the user (North Kaio didn't even want Goku to go over Kaio-Ken X2 because he thought it was too dangerous since he couldn't master it and he's the one who invented the technique, but Goku was able to use it all the way up to X20). The Super Saiyan Forms would be out of the picture entirely since GT Goku wasn't able to handle SSJ3 for more than a few minutes and Buu Saga Gotenks had their time limit greatly decreased when in SSJ3. Maybe he could have SSJ for like 5 minutes. Also no Ultra Instinct.

I reckon he could use most of his techniques since he has refined them so well (Kamehameha, Genki-Dama, Taio-Ken, Instantaneous Movement/Ki Sense, Flight without using the Kinto'un).

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