Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

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Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:53 am

Came across this interview from the Dragonboxes -

Interview:Why did Broli come back three times?
Because he’s the strongest. (laughs) Even including the TV anime, nobody exists in the world who’s stronger than Broli. I mean, even Vegeta, Prince of the Saiyans, was trembling in fear. (laughs) I felt that there’s no way that kind of mightiest being would die in a single outing. After all, there were kids who cried at Broli’s overwhelming strength when they saw Burn Up!! at Shueisha’s preview screening. (laughs) It’s always difficult coming up with an enemy for Goku, because I’d constantly have to escalate their strength. So, he ended up appearing three times.
This is true of Broli as well, but Goku & co. are always fighting against “an unbeatable foe”. Goku must win against such an enemy, so he has no choice but to defeat him when his enemy becomes overconfident and creates an opening. There’s absolutely no way he’d be able to win against someone like Broli if he used more orthodox methods.7 (laughs)

Then one of his later interviews appears to have him say that Broly is finally surpassed in battle of gods.

Then there’s this video here -

https://youtu.be/8NqfSj5Weh4


So does this all seem to point towards Old Broly being above anyone because Movie power scaling is different from Shows power scaling???

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:37 am

"Because he’s the strongest. Even including the TV anime, nobody exists in the world who’s stronger than Broli".

That's just the writer giving himself and his character too much credit so don't take it too seriously. In order to figure out where old Broly stood in comparison to the other movie and anime characters of the time, we have to look at the 2 movies he showed up in (Bio-Broly was a clone so I'm not looking at him). In his first movie it took a Ssj Goku with the power of Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo to defeat him. In the second movie it took the power of a Ssj2 Gohan (who according to Vegeta was nowhere near as strong as his kid self against Cell) and Ssj Goten to defeat him. That's where old Broly stands, between a Ssj Goku fused with the power of 4 other warriors and a weakened Ssj2 Gohan being helped by a Ssj Goten. Putting him anywhere higher like saying it took BOG (more specifically, Beerus and SsjG) to dethrone him is a laughable exaggeration as anyone from Majin Vegeta to Janemba would have no problem taking him down. That's of course not taking into account fused characters as they'd have even less trouble with him.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:35 am

Sounds like he was just wanking Broly super duper hard.
We know that rusty SSJ2 Gohan could do a little bit against Broly, and he even overpowered Broly at one stage. It happened when Broly was pulling Gohans arms back, Gohan actually managed to break free by overpowering Brolys hold. Broly really wasn’t all that. Gohan at that level would’ve never managed to overpower Majin Vegeta tier+ characters if they had a grip like Broly had on Gohan. That was also Broly with a zenkai I believe, so pre zenkai Broly might actually lose to rusty SSJ2 Gohan in a straight fight.

Base Vegetto would make Broly look like a child going by showings, it’s really not a fair comparison.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:05 am

I think the mere fact that Vegeta, Android 18, Piccolo, and the other Z Senshi weren't in M10 because their combined might would've been too much for Broly to handle, and thus the situation only required Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and maybe Goku's brief presence to finish off Broly.
This dude really sounds like a Hulk fanboy who claims that because Hulk is "the strongest there is!" then that means no one can beat him in just raw power, end of discussion. Just insert "Hulk" with "Broly", and you get the same level of wankery.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:43 pm

Thank kami for Broly's retcon, finally this excuse of a character can sink into oblivion.

In the Buu Arc he would last as long as Dabura, maybe a little longer, maybe not even so much. In the Cell arc he might get a bronze medal.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:48 pm

Imagine how pants-shittingly stupid it would be if Toriyama said that Namek Freeza was the strongest character of the original run. Now, apply your warranted WTF reaction and apply it to this and you'll know why Kageyama is a moron for saying this.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by TheMikado » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:41 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Imagine how pants-shittingly stupid it would be if Toriyama said that Namek Freeza was the strongest character of the original run. Now, apply your warranted WTF reaction and apply it to this and you'll know why Kageyama is a moron for saying this.
But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:45 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Imagine how pants-shittingly stupid it would be if Toriyama said that Namek Freeza was the strongest character of the original run. Now, apply your warranted WTF reaction and apply it to this and you'll know why Kageyama is a moron for saying this.
But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.
Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:47 pm

Did anyone bother to watch the video I posted as well?? I also heard that TOEI had an original interview saying Janemba was the strongest movie villain until this interview came out and then they retracted it???

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Cetra » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:17 pm

Just want to say what Koyama-san says about his movies is his decision. He made them. He can decide who is the strongest in those movies. Just because Janemba and Hirudegarn are "late Z enemies" he still has the write to decide that out of those characters he made - and he made all of them - Broly is the strongest. And considering Broly always was pretty much invincible in his own movies only to be beaten by a punch that has no imaginable function or burned to death by the sun's surface I always could imagine Broly to be the real deal. The Legend.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:42 pm

Cetra wrote:Just want to say what Koyama-san says about his movies is his decision. He made them. He can decide who is the strongest in those movies. Just because Janemba and Hirudegarn are "late Z enemies" he still has the write to decide that out of those characters he made - and he made all of them - Broly is the strongest. And considering Broly always was pretty much invincible in his own movies only to be beaten by a punch that has no imaginable function or burned to death by the sun's surface I always could imagine Broly to be the real deal. The Legend.
Its nonsensical to say that Broly can still be the strongest while also being overpowered by fighters beneath him on each occasion. The only way for a retcon of Broly still being the most powerful foe there is would be that the power of friendship & love among the Z Senshi somehow weakens Broly's immense power to manageable levels; there just is no other explanation for why weaklings power combined would utterly overwhelm the alleged "strongest" fighter there is.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:58 pm

And then there’s this Battle of Gods statement he made which appears he stands by what he said during his 2006 interview that he was the strongest Z character. The YouTube video I posted appears to explain how power scaling in the movies and show work differently and a that Broly lost due to plot armor or some sort -

“In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie.
After much hard work, I was unable to come up with an opponent stronger than Broli, and fell into a rut where I made him appear three times.
That is to say, there’s the matter of questioning the idea of Broli as the strongest. As you are well aware, vehement opinions on the subject have been flying back and forth on this message board, as well as a variety of [other] websites.

For this time, Goku’s opponent, designed by Toriyama-sensei, was even a God of Destruction.
In the world of Dragon Ball Z, that’s a setting where even Broli, before the God of Destruction, would face a gap like that between a Yokozuna and the very bottom of the sumo ranks. That Broli, reduced to a pushover.

Only, from the impression I got of the character on the screen, Broli was scarier, no contest. Am I the only one who found that Broli looked overwhelmingly frightening? Or am I just biased towards my own creation?”

Then there’s the argument from fans that when he destroyed the south Galaxy this was his restraint form.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:20 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:“In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie.
After much hard work, I was unable to come up with an opponent stronger than Broli, and fell into a rut where I made him appear three times.
That is to say, there’s the matter of questioning the idea of Broli as the strongest. As you are well aware, vehement opinions on the subject have been flying back and forth on this message board, as well as a variety of [other] websites.

For this time, Goku’s opponent, designed by Toriyama-sensei, was even a God of Destruction.
In the world of Dragon Ball Z, that’s a setting where even Broli, before the God of Destruction, would face a gap like that between a Yokozuna and the very bottom of the sumo ranks. That Broli, reduced to a pushover.

Only, from the impression I got of the character on the screen, Broli was scarier, no contest. Am I the only one who found that Broli looked overwhelmingly frightening? Or am I just biased towards my own creation?”

Then there’s the argument from fans that when he destroyed the south Galaxy this was his restraint form.
He did fall in a rut with Broly, sure, but he eventually gets past that rut and has Janenba and Hildergarn appear. All that statement really means me is that Bojack wasn’t stronger as he was the one that came between the Broly movies, and he tried to come up with more characters between that but couldn’t, and that’s why we got 3 Broly movies.
With the tense being used it just sounds to me like.. Broly movie 8,10,11 > Any chacarcters Koyama could come up with around that time, and Bojack.
With the wording just after aswell it sounds like Broly being the strongest is up for debate, and mentions message boards having the same argument.

The thing with Broly destroying the south Galaxy is awkward because Paragus believed a planet being destroyed by a comet would finish him off. If he did destroy the south Galaxy outright then he’s just a glass cannon, who’s durability goes beyond planetary in his LSSJ.
If I remember right it didn’t appear to be destroyed with a giant blast, and instead the scene just showed bits being erased super fast, so it was very likely a shit ton of multiple blasts that were multi solar system +, he would’ve died if he was close to the explosion though.

One thing that just came back to me is that through wording wasn’t it made to sound like Janenba was the strongest thing Goku had faced? Also, in the same movie we know Broly exists as Goku and Paikuhan are told to go deal with him. So that means we know that Goku went to Hell and defeated Broly without the need for fusion, so he couldn’t be above Janenba.

Oh, and there’s the Hatchyack statement too.

I’m mainly a manga fan, so this really isn’t my strongest point, but I believe this shouldn’t be too off.
Last edited by Sora Saiyan on Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:54 am

This is why you should never hire a creator who is a fanboy of their own characters.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:32 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:“In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie.
After much hard work, I was unable to come up with an opponent stronger than Broli, and fell into a rut where I made him appear three times.
That is to say, there’s the matter of questioning the idea of Broli as the strongest. As you are well aware, vehement opinions on the subject have been flying back and forth on this message board, as well as a variety of [other] websites.

For this time, Goku’s opponent, designed by Toriyama-sensei, was even a God of Destruction.
In the world of Dragon Ball Z, that’s a setting where even Broli, before the God of Destruction, would face a gap like that between a Yokozuna and the very bottom of the sumo ranks. That Broli, reduced to a pushover.

Only, from the impression I got of the character on the screen, Broli was scarier, no contest. Am I the only one who found that Broli looked overwhelmingly frightening? Or am I just biased towards my own creation?”

Then there’s the argument from fans that when he destroyed the south Galaxy this was his restraint form.
He did fall in a rut with Broly, sure, but he eventually gets past that rut and has Janenba and Hildergarn appear. All that statement really means me is that Bojack wasn’t stronger as he was the one that came between the Broly movies, and he tried to come up with more characters between that but couldn’t, and that’s why we got 3 Broly movies.
With the tense being used it just sounds to me like.. Broly movie 8,10,11 > Any chacarcters Koyama could come up with around that time, and Bojack.
With the wording just after aswell it sounds like Broly being the strongest is up for debate, and mentions message boards having the same argument.

The thing with Broly destroying the south Galaxy is awkward because Paragus believed a planet being destroyed by a comet would finish him off. If he did destroy the south Galaxy outright then he’s just a glass cannon, who’s durability goes beyond planetary in his LSSJ.
If I remember right it didn’t appear to be destroyed with a giant blast, and instead the scene just showed bits being erased super fast, so it was very likely a shit ton of multiple blasts that were multi solar system +, he would’ve died if he was close to the explosion though.

One thing that just came back to me is that through wording wasn’t it made to sound like Janenba was the strongest thing Goku had faced? Also, in the same movie we know Broly exists as Goku and Paikuhan are told to go deal with him. So that means we know that Goku went to Hell and defeated Broly without the need for fusion, so he couldn’t be above Janenba.

Oh, and there’s the Hatchyack statement too.

I’m mainly a manga fan, so this really isn’t my strongest point, but I believe this shouldn’t be too off.

Well, there’s also the scenario’s with Gogeta and Broly. They do fight in 3 occasions in the games and a ride.
1. Budokai 3 opening
2. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 opening
3. 4D Broly movie with Broly being LSSG and Gogeta being SSB, with Gogeta losing due to his time limit .
Broly is multi-galaxy in his supressed Ssj form and is multiplied by an unknown multiplier when he goes Lssj.
Broly is often scaled to the cell games is a fallacy due to taking place in a another dimension.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:33 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:“In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie.
After much hard work, I was unable to come up with an opponent stronger than Broli, and fell into a rut where I made him appear three times.
That is to say, there’s the matter of questioning the idea of Broli as the strongest. As you are well aware, vehement opinions on the subject have been flying back and forth on this message board, as well as a variety of [other] websites.

For this time, Goku’s opponent, designed by Toriyama-sensei, was even a God of Destruction.
In the world of Dragon Ball Z, that’s a setting where even Broli, before the God of Destruction, would face a gap like that between a Yokozuna and the very bottom of the sumo ranks. That Broli, reduced to a pushover.

Only, from the impression I got of the character on the screen, Broli was scarier, no contest. Am I the only one who found that Broli looked overwhelmingly frightening? Or am I just biased towards my own creation?”

Then there’s the argument from fans that when he destroyed the south Galaxy this was his restraint form.
He did fall in a rut with Broly, sure, but he eventually gets past that rut and has Janenba and Hildergarn appear. All that statement really means me is that Bojack wasn’t stronger as he was the one that came between the Broly movies, and he tried to come up with more characters between that but couldn’t, and that’s why we got 3 Broly movies.
With the tense being used it just sounds to me like.. Broly movie 8,10,11 > Any chacarcters Koyama could come up with around that time, and Bojack.
With the wording just after aswell it sounds like Broly being the strongest is up for debate, and mentions message boards having the same argument.

The thing with Broly destroying the south Galaxy is awkward because Paragus believed a planet being destroyed by a comet would finish him off. If he did destroy the south Galaxy outright then he’s just a glass cannon, who’s durability goes beyond planetary in his LSSJ.
If I remember right it didn’t appear to be destroyed with a giant blast, and instead the scene just showed bits being erased super fast, so it was very likely a shit ton of multiple blasts that were multi solar system +, he would’ve died if he was close to the explosion though.

One thing that just came back to me is that through wording wasn’t it made to sound like Janenba was the strongest thing Goku had faced? Also, in the same movie we know Broly exists as Goku and Paikuhan are told to go deal with him. So that means we know that Goku went to Hell and defeated Broly without the need for fusion, so he couldn’t be above Janenba.

Oh, and there’s the Hatchyack statement too.

I’m mainly a manga fan, so this really isn’t my strongest point, but I believe this shouldn’t be too off.

Well, there’s also the scenario’s with Gogeta and Broly. They do fight in 3 occasions in the games and a ride.
1. Budokai 3 opening
2. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 opening
3. 4D Broly movie with Broly being LSSG and Gogeta being SSB, with Gogeta losing due to his time limit .
Couldn’t he be multi-galaxy in his supressed Ssj form and is multiplied by an unknown multiplier when he goes Lssj.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:34 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: He did fall in a rut with Broly, sure, but he eventually gets past that rut and has Janenba and Hildergarn appear. All that statement really means me is that Bojack wasn’t stronger as he was the one that came between the Broly movies, and he tried to come up with more characters between that but couldn’t, and that’s why we got 3 Broly movies.
With the tense being used it just sounds to me like.. Broly movie 8,10,11 > Any chacarcters Koyama could come up with around that time, and Bojack.
With the wording just after aswell it sounds like Broly being the strongest is up for debate, and mentions message boards having the same argument.

The thing with Broly destroying the south Galaxy is awkward because Paragus believed a planet being destroyed by a comet would finish him off. If he did destroy the south Galaxy outright then he’s just a glass cannon, who’s durability goes beyond planetary in his LSSJ.
If I remember right it didn’t appear to be destroyed with a giant blast, and instead the scene just showed bits being erased super fast, so it was very likely a shit ton of multiple blasts that were multi solar system +, he would’ve died if he was close to the explosion though.

One thing that just came back to me is that through wording wasn’t it made to sound like Janenba was the strongest thing Goku had faced? Also, in the same movie we know Broly exists as Goku and Paikuhan are told to go deal with him. So that means we know that Goku went to Hell and defeated Broly without the need for fusion, so he couldn’t be above Janenba.

Oh, and there’s the Hatchyack statement too.

I’m mainly a manga fan, so this really isn’t my strongest point, but I believe this shouldn’t be too off.

Well, there’s also the scenario’s with Gogeta and Broly. They do fight in 3 occasions in the games and a ride.
1. Budokai 3 opening
2. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 opening
3. 4D Broly movie with Broly being LSSG and Gogeta being SSB, with Gogeta losing due to his time limit .
Couldn’t he be multi-galaxy in his supressed Ssj form and is multiplied by an unknown multiplier when he goes Lssj.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:06 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote: Well, there’s also the scenario’s with Gogeta and Broly. They do fight in 3 occasions in the games and a ride.
1. Budokai 3 opening
2. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 opening
3. 4D Broly movie with Broly being LSSG and Gogeta being SSB, with Gogeta losing due to his time limit .
Couldn’t he be multi-galaxy in his supressed Ssj form and is multiplied by an unknown multiplier when he goes Lssj.
I don’t include the games for any sort of power scaling. Those opening are just a spectacle like that 4d movie you mentioned. In the 4d movie it isn’t Gogeta either, it’s Goku fused with the audience, and he defeated Broly easily I believe.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:50 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote: Well, there’s also the scenario’s with Gogeta and Broly. They do fight in 3 occasions in the games and a ride.
1. Budokai 3 opening
2. Budokai Tenkaichi 3 opening
3. 4D Broly movie with Broly being LSSG and Gogeta being SSB, with Gogeta losing due to his time limit .
Couldn’t he be multi-galaxy in his supressed Ssj form and is multiplied by an unknown multiplier when he goes Lssj.
I don’t include the games for any sort of power scaling. Those opening are just a spectacle like that 4d movie you mentioned. In the 4d movie it isn’t Gogeta either, it’s Goku fused with the audience, and he defeated Broly easily I believe.
What about those who say things like -
“Point being, the only reason anyone ever beat Broly was due to plot. Don't let a single punch from Goku or the being blown up in the sun tell you otherwise. He was written to be the strongest no matter when it was written.”
Or something of that sort.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by TheMikado » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:57 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Imagine how pants-shittingly stupid it would be if Toriyama said that Namek Freeza was the strongest character of the original run. Now, apply your warranted WTF reaction and apply it to this and you'll know why Kageyama is a moron for saying this.
But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.
Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.
I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.

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