Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
OWmyDragonBallz
Regular
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:15 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.
Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.
I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.
SSJG Goku when he fought Beerus > Old Broly.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7854
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:17 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.
Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.
I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.
Which is still missing my point: Kageyama says that the old Broly is the strongest of the Z movie villains and that is flat out wrong based on a whole myriad of ways thanks to various power ups, fusions and transformations and how the other bad guys stack up against them.

It's the equivalent of saying Freeza with a power level of a 120 million is the strongest bad guy of the original run even though there's no way it can possibly be true.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8821
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:18 pm

Broly was killed by a rusty Gohan, his seven year old brother, and a half-dead base Trunks. No hax necessary either, they just shot a big blast through his chest.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:24 pm

Given Takao Koyama's own words in the interview, Broli ought to stomp.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by TheMikado » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:38 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.
I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.
Which is still missing my point: Kageyama says that the old Broly is the strongest of the Z movie villains and that is flat out wrong based on a whole myriad of ways thanks to various power ups, fusions and transformations and how the other bad guys stack up against them.

It's the equivalent of saying Freeza with a power level of a 120 million is the strongest bad guy of the original run even though there's no way it can possibly be true.
No that’s like saying Frieza is the weakest enemy and has no business being around now because he was surpassed in the Android arc.

The interview is specifically taking about Broly as a character. Not his power level at the time of introduction which are two seperate things.

Broly’s role every single time he is introduced is to the be the single strongest fighter. It’s literally the role he plays.

At no point in any of his fights was Broly surpasssed by the raw strength of a fighter. None of them. That’s simply his role. That’s the point in terms of story.

Frieza is surpassed in power by SSJ Goku
Cell is surpassed in power by SSJ Gohan.
Buu got surpassed multiple times by various fighters.

It’s simply Broly was defeated without actually being surpassed or every really beaten up.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:36 pm

Vegetto would punt Old Broly into the sky. Koyoma's love affair for Broly doesn't mean he was the strongest movie villain back during the Z movies. He was fodder to Janemba and Hirudegarn and would get utterly wrecked by Vegetto

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:02 pm

He is the most powerful Saiyan of all. It would be an interesting fight.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:47 pm

Cetra wrote:Just want to say what Koyama-san says about his movies is his decision. He made them. He can decide who is the strongest in those movies. Just because Janemba and Hirudegarn are "late Z enemies" he still has the write to decide that out of those characters he made - and he made all of them - Broly is the strongest. And considering Broly always was pretty much invincible in his own movies only to be beaten by a punch that has no imaginable function or burned to death by the sun's surface I always could imagine Broly to be the real deal. The Legend.
That’s right. He is the one that wrote all the first 13 DBZ movies and was involved in DBZ tv series’ organization, so I don’t understand who claims he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Who could have more authority on the matter? If he says there is no single person, besides god level people, that is stronger than Broly, including the DBZ anime, then it can’t be helped. He made up his mind. I guess this is pretty much the same treatment handed over to Kale in Dragon Ball Super. Though, I don’t think fusion counts as an “orthodox” way to challenge them, so it’s up for debate.

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Meshack » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:29 pm

It's unclear since they never really beat Broly. The first movie, Gokou just punched him in the gut and the meteor just kill him and the second movie, without Trunks's help they would have died. I would woot for Super Vegetto because Potara fusion multiplies the power tens of times plus a fifty times multiplier with Super Saiyan. It'd be a close fight but I say Vegetto would rise on top.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:23 pm

Cetra wrote:Just want to say what Koyama-san says about his movies is his decision. He made them. He can decide who is the strongest in those movies.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:I heard that TOEI had an original interview saying Janemba was the strongest movie villain until this interview came out and then they retracted it???
Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.
Meshack wrote:The second movie without Trunks's help they would have died. It'd be a close fight but I say Vegetto would rise on top.
If all it took to defeat him was Kid Trunks, Goten and rusty Gohan then all it would take for Vegetto to defeat him is to look at him. I don't know how someone losing to those 3 would put up a fight with someone who's on a completely different playing field from said 3.
Hulk10 wrote:He is the most powerful Saiyan of all.
He's not even close and if anything he's the weakest.

If we're looking at Z from the time he was introduced in till the end of its run then this is where he'd be based on what we've seen :

Ssj Vegetto
Ssj Gogeta
Mystic Gohan
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj Gotenks
Ssj2 Vegeta and Goku
Ssj2 Cell games Gohan
Buu arc Ssj Vegeta and Goku
Cell games Ssj Goku
Movie 8 powered up Ssj Goku
Lssj Broly
25th Tenkaichi Ssj2 Gohan

As you can see, he doesn't even make it into the top 10 and that's just going by Z so he'll go down even more once you take Ssj4 and what we saw in Super into account.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:01 pm

sintzu wrote: Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.
Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work. I honestly don’t see what is so complicated about accepting this. That’s like saying Toriyama can’t tell who is stronger between the characters he wrote.

Even Koyama himself adhresses those numerous debates about Broly’s strength. It’s not like he has any doubts.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:13 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work.
You mean the same Toei that had Piccolo destroy Goku's ship (in the filler leading up to Vegeta and Nappa's arrival) only to have Goku say Bulma's father was working on it for him ? Like I said, they can say what they want but that won't change what they presented to us on screen.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:22 pm

sintzu wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work.
You mean the same Toei that had Piccolo destroy Goku's ship (in the filler leading up to Vegeta and Nappa's arrival) only to have Goku say Bulma's father was working on it for him ? Like I said, they can say what they want but that won't change what they presented to us on screen.
So, because they can make mistakes leading to inconsistences, that somehow makes the scriptwriter a liar? He pretty much admitted he couldn’t come up with an oponnent stronger.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:43 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
sintzu wrote: Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.
Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work. I honestly don’t see what is so complicated about accepting this. That’s like saying Toriyama can’t tell who is stronger between the characters he wrote.

Even Koyama himself adhresses those numerous debates about Broly’s strength. It’s not like he has any doubts.
One writer does not get authority of who is the strongest in Toiryama's verse or characters he did not create or own himself. If the creator of Naruto said Naruto can beat Goku, does that make it true? No. What if if said that an then Toriyama said Goku can beat Naruto? Neither one of them is an authority on the others work so neither statement holds up. But Kishimoto has the power to say one Naruto character can beat another, and Toriyama can say one dragon ball character can beat another. Yes, this is between two dragon ball characters, but dragon ball is Toriyama's work while you can say Broly is the work of the other writers. If the movie doesn't back up his statement then he can't just decide Broly is stronger than ssj Vegito or Buuhan, as he did not create or write those characters. I would even say it goes the other way as well, if Toriyama said one of his characters beats Broly that really wouldn't work either as he did not write the story of the Broly movie so his opinion might not even be valid in that case. The only time a power statement from a content creator holds true is if they are the owner of BOTH characters, which isn't the case here.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:51 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
sintzu wrote: Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.
Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work. I honestly don’t see what is so complicated about accepting this. That’s like saying Toriyama can’t tell who is stronger between the characters he wrote.

Even Koyama himself adhresses those numerous debates about Broly’s strength. It’s not like he has any doubts.
One writer does not get authority of who is the strongest in Toiryama's verse or characters he did not create or own himself. If the creator of Naruto said Naruto can beat Goku, does that make it true? No. What if if said that an then Toriyama said Goku can beat Naruto? Neither one of them is an authority on the others work so neither statement holds up. But Kishimoto has the power to say one Naruto character can beat another, and Toriyama can say one dragon ball character can beat another. Yes, this is between two dragon ball characters, but dragon ball is Toriyama's work while you can say Broly is the work of the other writers. If the movie doesn't back up his statement then he can't just decide Broly is stronger than ssj Vegito or Buuhan, as he did not create or write those characters. I would even say it goes the other way as well, if Toriyama said one of his characters beats Broly that really wouldn't work either as he did not write the story of the Broly movie so his opinion might not even be valid in that case. The only time a power statement from a content creator holds true is if they are the owner of BOTH characters, which isn't the case here.
Koyama wrote all the movie antagonists before Beerus and worked as the series organizer, one of the most important positions in Toei’s staff handling Dragon Ball tv series. So, his job is literally creating stories on one side and putting things together on the other. I’m afraid he had more investment on this matter than Toriyama himself. Now, it’s Toriyama who is writing Broly’s character, so he can do whatever he wants with him.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8821
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:00 pm

What a member of the staff says doesn't actually matter unless it's on the page/screen. Not even a little bit. If the writer wanted to convey that, perhaps he should have shown such a thing on-screen, instead of having Gohan, Goten, and Trunks obliterate Broly, followed by Goku casually remarking that he could handle Broly in Hell.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:03 pm

If Toriyama does an interview 3 months from now in which he claims Namek Saga Goku could defeat BoG Beerus, are we now going to pretend like that is true?

Cause everything ON-SCREEN tells us super vegetto punts old broly into the sky with no difficulty

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:22 pm

Broly is a prodigal Saiyan, like Frieza is a prodigal member of his race and Frieza is the strongest one of his race and therefore Broly is too.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:40 pm

Hulk10 wrote:Broly is a prodigal Saiyan, like Frieza is a prodigal member of his race and Frieza is the strongest one of his race and therefore Broly is too.
The question isn't about potential though. Broly from the Z movies has NO chance vs Super Vegetto just like Namek Freeza had no chance in a hypothetical fight with Super Vegetto

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:19 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:Broly is a prodigal Saiyan, like Frieza is a prodigal member of his race and Frieza is the strongest one of his race and therefore Broly is too.
The question isn't about potential though. Broly from the Z movies has NO chance vs Super Vegetto just like Namek Freeza had no chance in a hypothetical fight with Super Vegetto
As he was in the films no, but in his advanced forms, then he would do well.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

Post Reply