Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

[Polyphase Avatron]

If Koyama created the film characters, and he says Broly is the strongest out of all of them, his word is the Word of God in film continuity as much as Toriyama's is the Word of God with anything related to the manga.

Except he didn't create all the film characters.

[Rakurai]

If Koyama created the film characters, and he says Broly is the strongest out of all of them, his word is the Word of God in film continuity as much as Toriyama's is the Word of God with anything related to the manga.

Except he didn't create all the film characters.

Didn't he create the stories and characters for DBZ movies 1-13? Not referring to BoG or RoF since they were obviously Toriyama.

That just means Broly is the strongest out of him, Janemba, and Hirudegarn.

[Koitsukai]

Sure, Koyama could say that and be real if Broly ever faced characters who we don't really know how to compare to our regular cast. Like if M8 had Broly go against Pegasus no Seiya and M10 had him fight Aries no Mu. But that is not the case, we actually know how strong those who defeated him were.
That would also mean that is not enough to watch the show, buy the toys, buy the ticket and watch the theatrical release... you'll never get the full picture until Koyama's interview comes your way... They should include that interview in the blu ray box then, otherwise people will never know the truth and might go around believing that Gohan Buu would be unfazed if he received Gokou's one-punch charged with the remaining ki of his weaker friends.

Just like GT Perfect Lies says that Gohan never stopped training, but the show portrayed something totally different, when there are contradicting statements they shouldn't have more weight than the actual product. This is not supplementary info at all, sorry, Koyama san, too late, you screw up and the end result was nothing like you expected? should've included that in the original product or saved it for last, retroactive retcon is only acceptable in-universe. No magazine or interview counts, make a movie or a new show, or learn to deal with what you could come up with.

If Shakespeare said HAMLET ACTUALLY LOVED HIS UNCLE, that wouldn't mean jack, he should've put that in the original play, now is just noise. It doesn't mean that he killed him even though he loved him, oh what a tortured soul.

[Rakurai]

Sure, Koyama could say that and be real if Broly ever faced characters who we don't really know how to compare to our regular cast. Like if M8 had Broly go against Pegasus no Seiya and M10 had him fight Aries no Mu. But that is not the case, we actually know how strong those who defeated him were.
That would also mean that is not enough to watch the show, buy the toys, buy the ticket and watch the theatrical release... you'll never get the full picture until Koyama's interview comes your way... They should include that interview in the blu ray box then, otherwise people will never know the truth and might go around believing that Gohan Buu would be unfazed if he received Gokou's one-punch charged with the remaining ki of his weaker friends.

Just like GT Perfect Lies says that Gohan never stopped training, but the show portrayed something totally different, when there are contradicting statements they shouldn't have more weight than the actual product. This is not supplementary info at all, sorry, Koyama san, too late, you screw up and the end result was nothing like you expected? should've included that in the original product or saved it for last, retroactive retcon is only acceptable in-universe. No magazine or interview counts, make a movie or a new show, or learn to deal with what you could come up with.

If Shakespeare said HAMLET ACTUALLY LOVED HIS UNCLE, that wouldn't mean jack, he should've put that in the original play, now is just noise. It doesn't mean that he killed him even though he loved him, oh what a tortured soul.

Koyama is the Word of God in his films. Powerscaling feats and deducing character strengths relative to each other for tiers are nothing more than fandom theories at best. If he says Broly is the strongest villain he's ever created, we don't have a right to say he's wrong especially when these characters have never gone up against each other. I will take the word of Koyama over fans arguing about what should be interpreted as opposed to how he, the Word of God, interpreted it.

Bringing in GT into this? How desperate are you to save face from some argument a long time ago?

[Cetra]

Sure, Koyama could say that and be real if Broly ever faced characters who we don't really know how to compare to our regular cast. Like if M8 had Broly go against Pegasus no Seiya and M10 had him fight Aries no Mu. But that is not the case, we actually know how strong those who defeated him were.
That would also mean that is not enough to watch the show, buy the toys, buy the ticket and watch the theatrical release... you'll never get the full picture until Koyama's interview comes your way... They should include that interview in the blu ray box then, otherwise people will never know the truth and might go around believing that Gohan Buu would be unfazed if he received Gokou's one-punch charged with the remaining ki of his weaker friends.

Just because Broly is stronger than people Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Goku have problems with in this whole movie compilation you don't need to act as if he does not have the right to decide how strong Broly is in the movies. As mentioned before, we have no actual idea what to make of Broly. He was virtually invincible in his movies and only a "United we Stand" power - that is very often supposed to defeat anyone regardless of the strength of the enemy - defeated (not even killed) him and the sun by the end of the second movie killed him. Broly very well could be the strongest in the movies because we never really got an actual impression of what he is really capable of. Fans only have a problem with that because he is a villain that fought SSJ1s and in the last movies we see SSJ3 stuff. As if Dragon Ball in Toei's hands ever was this "easy".

Just like GT Perfect Lies says that Gohan never stopped training, but the show portrayed something totally different, when there are contradicting statements they shouldn't have more weight than the actual product. This is not supplementary info at all, sorry, Koyama san, too late, you screw up and the end result was nothing like you expected? should've included that in the original product or saved it for last, retroactive retcon is only acceptable in-universe. No magazine or interview counts, make a movie or a new show, or learn to deal with what you could come up with.

You're a consumer. You cannot decide when a producer's word does not count anymore. None of us can. The only "not counting" here would be if multiple people with the same decisive powers as he has in the movies disagree with him because then it would be ambigious. Like Ridley Scott insists on Deckart from Blade Runner being a replicant but the main writer of the first movie, co-writer of the second as well as the Director of the second movie say "no or at least nobody should know". We do not have such a case here.

[theherodjl]

Ok, so let's actually devise some theories to support Koyama's opinion on the matter.

Broly was defeated in M8 because...
- Goku very briefly managed to obtain God Ki/SSJG from absorbing a few other pure-hearted Saiyan's power, but it would wear off very quickly because it was incomplete, and thus Goku ended it in one blow.
- Broly's Ki was so enormous that it was almost tearing out of his body, and Goku's punch just managed to strike a vital point where Broly's body was unable to hold up, ultimately leading to instantaneous mass-leakage.
- Broly's control of his Ki was thrown off completely from his body forcefully building up more & more energy, and led him to developing Delayed Onset Ki Disorder.
- Broly was afraid of Goku's yelling because it reminded him of their time together as babies, and the trauma of the memory caused Broly to drop his Ki.
- Broly lost his mind after going LSSJ, and became both homicidal & suicidal so he put on a show for the Z Senshi just so they could all die together when the comet struck.

Broly was defeated in M10 because...
- The power of God Ki may have has a negative affect on Broly's power/body/mind.
- Broly may have lost an enormous amount of his power from when Goku pierced his belly, and his body mostly only healed the injury instead of regaining the power.
- Broly still had Delayed Onset Ki Disorder.
- Broly once more became afraid of seeing Goku yelling, and the trauma made his hold back his full power.
- Broly was still utterly insane, and was just willing to accept any outcome no matter what happened.

Broly was defeated in M11 because...
- Broly's power was so unique that cloning it in it's entirety was not possible.
- The technology of Earth was not advanced enough to properly clone Broly's power.
- The cloning process was done too quickly or imprecisely.
- Goten's crying triggered a psychological reaction in the clone.
- Broly's clone was comprised of the DNA of one half Broly/one half Wicked-Witch-of-the-East.

Yes? No? Maybe?

[sintzu]

If Koyama created the film characters, and he says Broly is the strongest out of all of them, his word is the Word of God in film continuity.

The problem is that he created others that are shown to be stronger. Janemba is stronger than Ssj3 Goku yet Broly is stronger than Janemba ? that doesn't make sense, even if the creator says it.

[Sora Saiyan]

If Koyama created the film characters, and he says Broly is the strongest out of all of them, his word is the Word of God in film continuity.

The problem is that he created others that are shown to be stronger. Janemba is stronger than Ssj3 Goku yet Broly is stronger than Janemba ? that doesn't make sense, even if the creator says it.

There has been many points made in this topic from Koyamas own works that contradict his statement from a later date, but I’m not bringing all that stuff up again as this has clearly caused a divide between people who believe that past Koyamas showing and statements through the films > Present Koyamas statements , and vice versa.

I just wanted to see how people feel if this was flipped a little, and instead of Broly being called the strongest, he was actually stated by Koyama to be below Meta Coola, and now Meta Coola is called the strongest?

[Rakurai]

If Koyama created the film characters, and he says Broly is the strongest out of all of them, his word is the Word of God in film continuity.

The problem is that he created others that are shown to be stronger. Janemba is stronger than Ssj3 Goku yet Broly is stronger than Janemba ? that doesn't make sense, even if the creator says it.

And when did feats ever hold back writers from producing things that might otherwise seem illogical?

M8 Broly clearly got torn apart to shreds by Goku, visually. Yet M10 he was apparently still alive and kicking.

Anime powerscaling clearly shows that Ultimate Gohan should be stronger than Goku. Yet DBS anime drills to our heads that Goku was the undisputed No. 1 or strongest after kid Buus's defeat.

It's all contradictory, it's all illogical. But DB isn't ran by fan theories and powerscaling logic.

If Koyama ever said Meta Cooler's clone army could've crushed Broly, then that is how the film lore would've worked too. And I'm thinking you or other fans wouldn't have complained about this point if it were ever stated by him.

[Sora Saiyan]

If Koyama ever said Meta Cooler's clone army could've crushed Broly, then that is how the film lore would've worked too. And I'm thinking you or other fans wouldn't have complained about this point if it were ever stated by him.

I believe this part was intended for me?
I’m not talking about the clone army. I’m saying just Meta Cooler.
I will use scaling, feats, and direct statements e.g. Hatchyack being stronger than Broly, Fat Janenba having the highest/most amazing ki Goku’s sensed, and Goku saying he could deal with Broly in fusion reborn.
Also judging by SSJ2 Gohans showing against Broly he closed the gap quite a bit with just SSJ2 when compared to any of the fighters showings in the previous film against Broly. So the increase that SSJ2 gave Gohan made Broly look nowhere near as impressive as before, and that was Broly with a Zenkai. Like I’ve said in a previous post, SSJ2 Gohan overpowered Broly at one point too.
And I would most definitely complain if that’s what Koyama said. Why the hell would 1 Meta Cooler be capable of defeating Broly?
Like I said in my previous post, I go with what seems to be intended by Koyama when he was creating the films judging by statements, scaling, and feats in the movies over a statements that came much later and contradicts what he had put in those films.

[Rakurai]

If Koyama ever said Meta Cooler's clone army could've crushed Broly, then that is how the film lore would've worked too. And I'm thinking you or other fans wouldn't have complained about this point if it were ever stated by him.

I believe this part was intended for me?
I’m not talking about the clone army. I’m saying just Meta Cooler.
I will use scaling, feats, and direct statements e.g. Hatchyack being stronger than Broly, Fat Janenba having the highest/most amazing ki Goku’s sensed, and Goku saying he could deal with Broly in fusion reborn.
Also judging by SSJ2 Gohans showing against Broly he closed the gap quite a bit with just SSJ2 when compared to any of the fighters showings in the previous film against Broly. So the increase that SSJ2 gave Gohan made Broly look nowhere near as impressive as before, and that was Broly with a Zenkai. Like I’ve said in a previous post, SSJ2 Gohan overpowered Broly at one point too.
And I would most definitely complain if that’s what Koyama said. Why the hell would 1 Meta Cooler be capable of defeating Broly?
Like I said in my previous post, I go with what seems to be intended by Koyama when he was creating the films judging by statements, scaling, and feats in the movies over a statements that came much later and contradicts what he had put in those films.

Not really. I was just inspired to use Meta Cooler as an example for my argument since you already brought him up.

I am specifically talking about Koyama's own creations within his own works. Hatchiyack was not created by Koyama, therefore he is not included in the scope of his own statements.

If you're referring to M10, then that SSJ2 Gohan was outclassed. The best he could do was get out of Broly's grip. That's not overpowering.

It could be argued that Broly's shtick which is his power constantly rising could very well make him above any of the film villains.

Not only that, but most if not all media portray Broly way above than what fans think his strength should be.

But all of that is neither here nor there. Koyama told us his feelings on the matter anyhow. It's like saying Toriyama can't retcon Raditz being an upper-class Saiyan warrior even though Vegeta and Nappa both told us he was lower-class trash. Well, he did and that's what Raditz was supposed to be from here on out. It's stupid, it's illogical, but it's his story and his say on that matter could influence future media of how he is portrayed.

[Sora Saiyan]

Not really. I was just inspired to use Meta Cooler as an example for my argument since you already brought him up.

I am specifically talking about Koyama's own creations within his own works. Hatchiyack was not created by Koyama, therefore he is not included in the scope of his own statements.

If you're referring to M10, then that SSJ2 Gohan was outclassed. The best he could do was get out of Broly's grip. That's not overpowering.

It could be argued that Broly's shtick which is his power constantly rising could very well make him above any of the film villains.

Not only that, but most if not all media portray Broly way above than what fans think his strength should be.

But all of that is neither here nor there. Koyama told us his feelings on the matter anyhow. It's like saying Toriyama can't retcon Raditz being an upper-class Saiyan warrior even though Vegeta and Nappa both told us he was lower-class trash. Well, he did and that's what Raditz was supposed to be from here on out. It's stupid, it's illogical, but it's his story and his say on that matter could influence future media of how he is portrayed.

I believe Koyama would’ve put the line in Plan to eradicate the Saiyans. Even so I know this doesn’t matter for you.

Gohan did definitely overpower (I don’t believe out strength sounds correct, so I’ve used overpower) Brolys grip, it was pretty slow, but Broly doesn’t contain him at all. That’s the only instance, but Brolys expression does change whilst Gohans doing it, and he still can’t halt it. Bar that Gohan couldn’t really do much, but he actually managed to move Broly which is an achievement compared to the heroes in the first, and all it took was the power of his SSJ2 form, which would be pretty poor when compared to his SSJ2 form as a boy.
I’m just saying that Gohan closed the gap enough for his achievements to make the other heroes look like shit in the first Broly movie. For some reason Gohans power, which shouldn’t have climbed an insane amount, managed to do a lot more against Broly, even though Broly also powered up.

I don’t care for what the DB games use as Brolys strength level, I only adhere to the manga, anime, and movies when I’m talking about this kind of stuff, the games are an entirely different kettle of fish (I believe you’re referring to the games?).

I do see your point, as I take it you would also be accept it as truth if Toriyama decided to say that Raditz was actually stronger than Nappa? Both had statements which prove otherwise but the author in the present overrides his past selfs intentions?

[RandomGuy96]

Again:

SS2 Gohan + SS Goten + base Trunks were shown to be able to overpower and kill Broly. The Sun had nothing to do with it. Gohan and co just shattered his barrier and put a big hole in his chest with their Kamehameha.

Hatchiyak was outright stated to be stronger than Broly. He in turn was weak enough that the CG cast could best him without too much trouble.

Fat Janemba was stronger than anyone else in the movie continuity at the time, stated by Goku himself (and Paragus is in movie 12, so the Broly films happened). SS3 Goku beats him without too much trouble.

Toei itself stated that Hildegarn and Janemba were the two strongest movie villains on an old website (doubt their statement of Janemba being above Hildegarn if you wish, the mere fact that someone wanted to address who was #1 and #2 between those two indicates they're dimensions above Broly who was never in the running).

"Word of God" has no actual impact on anything, particularly if it contradicts the work itself. This is not a "rule" of film or literature.

[Rakurai]

I believe Koyama would’ve put the line in Plan to eradicate the Saiyans. Even so I know this doesn’t matter for you.

Gohan did definitely overpower (I don’t believe out strength sounds correct, so I’ve used overpower) Brolys grip, it was pretty slow, but Broly doesn’t contain him at all. That’s the only instance, but Brolys expression does change whilst Gohans doing it, and he still can’t halt it. Bar that Gohan couldn’t really do much, but he actually managed to move Broly which is an achievement compared to the heroes in the first, and all it took was the power of his SSJ2 form, which would be pretty poor when compared to his SSJ2 form as a boy.
I’m just saying that Gohan closed the gap enough for his achievements to make the other heroes look like shit in the first Broly movie. For some reason Gohans power, which shouldn’t have climbed an insane amount, managed to do a lot more against Broly, even though Broly also powered up.

I don’t care for what the DB games use as Brolys strength level, I only adhere to the manga, anime, and movies when I’m talking about this kind of stuff, the games are an entirely different kettle of fish (I believe you’re referring to the games?).

I do see your point, as I take it you would also be accept it as truth if Toriyama decided to say that Raditz was actually stronger than Nappa? Both had statements which prove otherwise but the author in the present overrides his past selfs intentions?

I take back what I said. Turns out that Koyama did write the screenplay for Zetsemetsu Keikaku (the OVA). Nevertheless, his post-BoG statement specifically revolved around the 13 films' lore so that leaves out Hatchiyack from the debate.

Without getting into another powerscaling debate. See, the difference between Broly and Raditz is that Raditz has already been established to be on par with a Saibaman and also directly compared to Nappa and Vegeta, whereas Broly was never directly compared to the other film villains with the exception of M8 Broly being compared to Hatchiyack. Broly's image revolves around being the Legendary Super Saiyan, a concept with loads of hype behind it, whose power constantly rises and whose defeat required "unorthodox methods." This is the icon whose character is being recycled for the Super movie and already touted to be above our heroes, with Goku's chances of victory being uncertain.

Now let's pose a timeless debate, Broly vs Janemba. Would Janemba one-shot Broly, or would Broly persist until his power started matching Janemba and eventually overwhelm him?

Whatever infinite BS possibilities there are, Koyama singled out Broly as the strongest. Janemba and Hirudegarn for all they showed were never above Broly in Koyama's mind.

In other words: if you were to ask the ultimate authority, Koyama, on who's stronger than who within the context of the first 13 Z films, he would likely say Broly based on his wanked statements. And that's the end of it because those are his own creations and he does as he sees fit with them. You can argue with him, you can try to persuade him otherwise, but unless you actually have that conversation with him, he is the content creator and we have to abide by his world as consumers of his content.

It's no different than if you wanted to ask the ultimate authority on the manga, Toriyama, on who who was stronger at the time, say Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gohan (one-on-one). It's futile to pose the absurd like what you suggested but yes Toriyama's word would be final on that unless his future work after said statement contradicted that.

Again:

SS2 Gohan + SS Goten + base Trunks were shown to be able to overpower and kill Broly. The Sun had nothing to do with it. Gohan and co just shattered his barrier and put a big hole in his chest with their Kamehameha.

Hatchiyak was outright stated to be stronger than Broly. He in turn was weak enough that the CG cast could best him without too much trouble.

Fat Janemba was stronger than anyone else in the movie continuity at the time, stated by Goku himself (and Paragus is in movie 12, so the Broly films happened). SS3 Goku beats him without too much trouble.

Toei itself stated that Hildegarn and Janemba were the two strongest movie villains on an old website (doubt their statement of Janemba being above Hildegarn if you wish, the mere fact that someone wanted to address who was #1 and #2 between those two indicates they're dimensions above Broly who was never in the running).

"Word of God" has no actual impact on anything, particularly if it contradicts the work itself. This is not a "rule" of film or literature.

You are using powerscaling arguments. Like I said before, DB isn't ran by fan theories and powerscaling logic.

Koyama's word succeeds Toei's. It's the same with Toriyama making some contradictory statements in the past. Whatever he feels should be appropriate today, is the new or re-established form of continuity like Saiyans and S-cells bullshit.

[Sora Saiyan]

snip

Current Koyamas view of Broly is directly contradicted in Fusion reborn (his previous work), it’s really not much different than the Raditz example (Raditz is a little more extreme, but it involves statements and feats which include the character)
Fusion Reborn goes. Fat Janenba = Most powerful ki Goku sensed, as stated by Goku. SSJ3 deals with him no sweat. Right now that means Broly would be dealt with even easier. Then True Janenba is much stronger, SSJ3 Goku is weaker and loses. Later against Gogeta Janenba powers up again although it’s futile, he hid some power. Also, Broly exists in this continuity as Goku says he’ll go to hell and deal with Broly. This means that around that time Koyama has every intention of Broly being weaker than Janenba as his statement on Janenba being the most most amazing ki, in his weakest form at that, clearly includes Broly since he exists in that film too. So from there we have FP True Janenba > True Janenba > Fat Janenba > Broly.
That right there is a direct comparison, it just didn’t need to use any names to get its point across.
Now instead of asking could Janenba one shot Broly, I’ll ask would; FP True Janenba one shot fat Janenba, who’s stronger than Broly? Everything in Fusion Reborn has a direct relation to Broly in a power sense (as I mentioned he exists here), so True Janenba does to Broly what Goku did to Fat Janenba, just many times worse, so yeah, he probably does one shot.

So, again, when the creator changes his mind in the future when something is clearly established in the past like the Raditz and Nappa example, can you then just rule it out? does the present override the past? I for one work with what was clearly established in the past, as with humans we’re very flawed, and for some reason some of us will totally throw out everything established for one reason or another, even though it doesn’t make a lick of sense, or sometimes we just forget things, as things like the DB films are pretty old now. That’s why I decide to go with the past creator over their present self. The same thing if Toriyama said that about Raditz and Nappa.

Btw, that Koyama interview could really be referring to not being able to come up with and opponent stronger than Broly around the time of his rut, which was around the three Broly films. This point holds a lot more weight as he has Broly mentioned in fusion reborn, and not as the strongest either, that in itself shows that he overcame his rut. Now just sticking exclusively with present Koyama, he may have forgotten things from Fusion Reborn, and he could have been influenced by peoples perceptions of Broly and took too much pride in himself for his creation because of the hype that surrounds Broly. The BoG interview could show these points about him being influenced by people, and taking too much pride in his creation, as he really only spoke about himself, and Broly, and he also mentions peoples views of Broly
on message boards. Though Toriyama designed him so he deserves a lot of the credit as he mentions Broly’s appearance in the interview, too. Now because of this bias that grew he may have thrown out everything that was established previously, as he does choose to keep bringing up Broly over any of the other movie villains. IMO Present Koyama does believe that Broly is the strongest, but I’ve gave my reasoning as to why I believe what I believe, out of universe, and in universe now.

One thing I will add for nostalgic purposes is that I used to believe Broly was the strongest when I was a kid, I used to think he was really cool, and adored playing as him in B3, and BT. Of course I grew up and realised how boring of a character he is, but I will always have fond memories of Broly.

[Rakurai]

snip

Current Koyamas view of Broly is directly contradicted in Fusion reborn (his previous work), it’s really not much different than the Raditz example (Raditz is a little more extreme, but it involves statements and feats which include the character)
Fusion Reborn goes. Fat Janenba = Most powerful ki Goku sensed, as stated by Goku. SSJ3 deals with him no sweat. Right now that means Broly would be dealt with even easier. Then True Janenba is much stronger, SSJ3 Goku is weaker and loses. Later against Gogeta Janenba powers up again although it’s futile, he hid some power. Also, Broly exists in this continuity as Goku says he’ll go to hell and deal with Broly. This means that around that time Koyama has every intention of Broly being weaker than Janenba as his statement on Janenba being the most most amazing ki, in his weakest form at that, clearly includes Broly since he exists in that film too. So from there we have FP True Janenba > True Janenba > Fat Janenba > Broly.
That right there is a direct comparison, it just didn’t need to use any names to get its point across.
Now instead of asking could Janenba one shot Broly, I’ll ask would; FP True Janenba one shot fat Janenba, who’s stronger than Broly? Everything in Fusion Reborn has a direct relation to Broly in a power sense (as I mentioned he exists here), so True Janenba does to Broly what Goku did to Fat Janenba, just many times worse, so yeah, he probably does one shot.

So, again, when the creator changes his mind in the future when something is clearly established in the past like the Raditz and Nappa example, can you then just rule it out? does the present override the past? I for one work with what was clearly established in the past, as with humans we’re very flawed, and for some reason some of us will totally throw out everything established for one reason or another, even though it doesn’t make a lick of sense, or sometimes we just forget things, as things like the DB films are pretty old now. That’s why I decide to go with the past creator over their present self. The same thing if Toriyama said that about Raditz and Nappa.

Btw, that Koyama interview could really be referring to not being able to come up with and opponent stronger than Broly around the time of his rut, which was around the three Broly films. This point holds a lot more weight as he has Broly mentioned in fusion reborn, and not as the strongest either, that in itself shows that he overcame his rut. Now just sticking exclusively with present Koyama, he may have forgotten things from Fusion Reborn, and he could have been influenced by peoples perceptions of Broly and took too much pride in himself for his creation because of the hype that surrounds Broly. The BoG interview could show these points about him being influenced by people, and taking too much pride in his creation, as he really only spoke about himself, and Broly, and he also mentions peoples views of Broly
on message boards. Though Toriyama designed him so he deserves a lot of the credit as he mentions Broly’s appearance in the interview, too. Now because of this bias that grew he may have thrown out everything that was established previously, as he does choose to keep bringing up Broly over any of the other movie villains. IMO Present Koyama does believe that Broly is the strongest, but I’ve gave my reasoning as to why I believe what I believe, out of universe, and in universe now.

One thing I will add for nostalgic purposes is that I used to believe Broly was the strongest when I was a kid, I used to think he was really cool, and adored playing as him in B3, and BT. Of course I grew up and realised how boring of a character he is, but I will always have fond memories of Broly.

Broly was never mentioned in M12. Broly being in Hell was mentioned at the end of M11.

And again, you are powerscaling. No direct comparison has ever been made between Broly, Janemba, and Hirudegarn. The films are meant to be standalone with the exception of the three Broly films. The series is not run entirely by powerscaling logic either as much as we like to do it, otherwise we wouldn't have things like Tien holding off Semi-Perfect Cell, Krillin pushing back SSB Goku in a Kamehameha clash, or SSJ2 F. Trunks knocking back SSR Black after a brief scuffle. Feats and hyperboles don't mean much when the content creator himself has declared his opinion on the matter, especially on a matter that is muddled in ambiguity and continuity separation as well.

If he overcame his rut, then certainly Hirudegarn was meant to be stronger than Janemba? Since apparently each movie villain was meant to be stronger than the last. But Hirudegarn was beaten by SSJ3 Goku's power alone, whereas it required fusion to defeat Janemba. Like I said, it's all muddled and by using feats and statements then certainly one can conclude that Janemba must be stronger than Hirudegarn. This leads me to believe that Koyama never really got over his rut. We can analyze his statements all we want, but his high regard for Broly as the strongest, him showing surprise to the "matter of questioning Broly as the strongest," just shows that to that day he considered Broly the strongest out of all films.

Well, it doesn't matter either way in the end what Koyama thinks because fans will refuse to accept his views even though he is the content creator. I don't care how strong Broly is supposed to be relative to other villains, Vs. debates have never really been my thing. These sorts of arguments have already left their impact to the media or content being produced, which is to give Broly more exposure as one of the strongest villains and increase the popularity of his character to the point Toriyama is bringing him back stronger than ever before. Not to mention, make a female copy of him who is insanely powerful as well. The damage is already done.

[Sora Saiyan]

Broly was never mentioned in M12. Broly being in Hell was mentioned at the end of M11.

And again, you are powerscaling. No direct comparison has ever been made between Broly, Janemba, and Hirudegarn. The films are meant to be standalone with the exception of the three Broly films. The series is not run entirely by powerscaling logic either as much as we like to do it, otherwise we wouldn't have things like Tien holding off Semi-Perfect Cell, Krillin pushing back SSB Goku in a Kamehameha clash, or SSJ2 F. Trunks knocking back SSR Black after a brief scuffle. Feats and hyperboles don't mean much when the content creator himself has declared his opinion on the matter, especially on a matter that is muddled in ambiguity and continuity separation as well.

If he overcame his rut, then certainly Hirudegarn was meant to be stronger than Janemba? Since apparently each movie villain was meant to be stronger than the last. But Hirudegarn was beaten by SSJ3 Goku's power alone, whereas it required fusion to defeat Janemba. Like I said, it's all muddled and by using feats and statements then certainly one can conclude that Janemba must be stronger than Hirudegarn. This leads me to believe that Koyama never really got over his rut. We can analyze his statements all we want, but his high regard for Broly as the strongest, him showing surprise to the "matter of questioning Broly as the strongest," just shows that to that day he considered Broly the strongest out of all films.

Well, it doesn't matter either way in the end what Koyama thinks because fans will refuse to accept his views even though he is the content creator. I don't care how strong Broly is supposed to be relative to other villains, Vs. debates have never really been my thing. These sorts of arguments have already left their impact to the media or content being produced, which is to give Broly more exposure as one of the strongest villains and increase the popularity of his character to the point Toriyama is bringing him back stronger than ever before. Not to mention, make a female copy of him who is insanely powerful as well. The damage is already done.

Yeah it’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movies, so it’s in Bio Broly? Luckily there’s still Paragus in Fusion Reborn which means that Broly exists. Anyway Goku must’ve also dealt with Broly in hell, unless you believe he ceased to exist?

Dude I’m not only using powerscaling. I’m using Goku’s statement which would involve Broly, as Paragus existing in fusion Reborn would still mean that Broly is included in that statement made by Goku.

I decided to answer the question you posed in regards to Janenba one shotting, so of course I had to scale from Goku’s showing against Fat Janenba, I don’t know what else you expected me to do there? Either way, Goku wrecking fat Janenba who is more powerful than Broly doesn’t even need scaling as we have statements, just replace Fat Janenba with Broly and Goku does the same. (but it would be worse). Of course somebody stronger (FP Janenba) would do more damage, especially when the person they’re fighting is weaker, and it’s made worse cause he’s got a fucking sword.

Koyamas overcame his Broly rut, who knows what happens with the villains after the fact. Janenba could be above Hildergarn. I believe we never had a statement calling Hildergarn the strongest he’s sensed, so Janenba after his final power up could still be placed above him (I personally don’t believe that). Broly on the other hand doesn’t have that in his corner. Actually, scratch that, movie 13 definitely takes place in a different timeline as Goku and Vegeta are alive. Not that it matters much, Hildegarn lost because Goku figured out his weakness, so I guess that was more like how Hatchiyack lost. Plus dragon fist is freaky powerful.

I’ve made my point. Janenba is called the most powerful in a film where Broly has had to exist, and Hatchiyack was called stronger. Personally I don’t think that Koyama had too much of an issue with people surpassing Broly back then. Now he would probably say Hatchiyack was weaker.

Let just agree to disagree here, as I can’t see this changing. Any further replies would just be going round in circles I believe.

[Hulk10]

I personally believe Old Broly could stomp Super Vegitto but others are welcome to disagree.

[Kamiccolo9]

If the Author is God, then God is Dead and nothing that's said outside the work itself should matter anyway.

[Rakurai]

Yeah it’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movies, so it’s in Bio Broly? Luckily there’s still Paragus in Fusion Reborn which means that Broly exists. Anyway Goku must’ve also dealt with Broly in hell, unless you believe he ceased to exist?

Dude I’m not only using powerscaling. I’m using Goku’s statement which would involve Broly, as Paragus existing in fusion Reborn would still mean that Broly is included in that statement made by Goku.

I decided to answer the question you posed in regards to Janenba one shotting, so of course I had to scale from Goku’s showing against Fat Janenba, I don’t know what else you expected me to do there? Either way, Goku wrecking fat Janenba who is more powerful than Broly doesn’t even need scaling as we have statements, just replace Fat Janenba with Broly and Goku does the same. (but it would be worse). Of course somebody stronger (FP Janenba) would do more damage, especially when the person they’re fighting is weaker, and it’s made worse cause he’s got a fucking sword.

Koyamas overcame his Broly rut, who knows what happens with the villains after the fact. Janenba could be above Hildergarn. I believe we never had a statement calling Hildergarn the strongest he’s sensed, so Janenba after his final power up could still be placed above him (I personally don’t believe that). Broly on the other hand doesn’t have that in his corner. Actually, scratch that, movie 13 definitely takes place in a different timeline as Goku and Vegeta are alive. Not that it matters much, Hildegarn lost because Goku figured out his weakness, so I guess that was more like how Hatchiyack lost. Plus dragon fist is freaky powerful.

I’ve made my point. Janenba is called the most powerful in a film where Broly has had to exist, and Hatchiyack was called stronger. Personally I don’t think that Koyama had too much of an issue with people surpassing Broly back then. Now he would probably say Hatchiyack was weaker.

Let just agree to disagree here, as I can’t see this changing. Any further replies would just be going round in circles I believe.

Does making cameos necessarily mean that it must've happened? I don't believe it. Cooler was shown being released from Hell in GT, so do we say that M5-6 must have occurred (I also take something else I said back; M5-6 were back-to-back in terms of continuity like M8, 10, & 11)? M6 cannot fit anywhere in the DBZ anime's continuity, of which GT is a sequel to. So M5 might've occurred but not M6, however M6 itself is a sequel to M5 and these timelines must be connected. This is what I mean by the film timelines being muddled and ambiguous in general.

Koyama's perception of Broly may have been shaped by modern depiction of Broly today. Marketing and all that. We can either take to the films, which we can scale Janemba > Broly, or we can take to Koyama, in which case Broly > Janemba according to his thoughts most likely. I expect most fans to follow the former.

Agree to disagree. There's really no right or wrong in this case, but I myself choose to side with the content creator's words more than anything else unless he/she contradict that statement in a later work (as much as I hate Toriyama doing it).