Cell Games Piccolo

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Cell Games Piccolo

Post by ahill1 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:57 pm

Sorry if this isn't worth its own topic, but still questions like this don't seem to get much attention when they are insert in another kind of thread (like the battle powers thread).

So, this is ones of the questions to which I have seen the most varying range of answers... I have seen people saying Piccolo is as strong as #16 as I've seen people saying Piccolo is quite close to CGs Vegeta and Trunks.

So, which placement do you find comfortable to fit Piccolo in?

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by theherodjl » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:31 pm

Piccolo wasn't getting totally destroyed by the Cell Jr that was fighting him, but he clearly wasn't winning either. I'd imagine Cell Games Piccolo was at the level of SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta or Trunks after their first ROSAT trip.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Kaboom » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:45 pm

I typically consider him to be on the same level as "Super" Vegeta was against Stage-2 Cell. That's plenty for him to be considered "on a whole new level" like Goku described him, and for him to at least remain on his feet against a Cell Junior like he did. But at the same time it still doesn't compare to the strength that folks like Cell and Goku are throwing around now.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Vertical » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:38 pm

Roughly the same distance from Vegeta as he was at the start of the Android arc (post training, pre-Kami). I didn’t aim for that, I just came to realize it after reading this topic.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by sintzu » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:14 am

In the anime Goku and Trunks said he was on another level and he was holding his own against a Cell Jr like what Grade 2 Vegeta and Trunks were doing so I think he's around there.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Logania » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:22 am

I'd say around Super Vegeta when he was mollywopping fighting Semi-Perfect Cell.

But my personal bias and how he was fighting against the Cell Jrs makes me think he's at current Vegeta's strength at the Cell Games.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by ahill1 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:09 am

Kaboom wrote:I typically consider him to be on the same level as "Super" Vegeta was against Stage-2 Cell. That's plenty for him to be considered "on a whole new level" like Goku described him, and for him to at least remain on his feet against a Cell Junior like he did. But at the same time it still doesn't compare to the strength that folks like Cell and Goku are throwing around now.
But considering suppressed Cell, once getting a little more serious, could knock this Vegeta unconscious with three effortless hits, shouldn't the Cell Juniors (who were, arguably, above even that Cell) do the same to Piccolo were him at that Vegeta's level? The fact that there's nothing implying the Cell Juniors were going easier on Piccolo compared to Vegeta and Trunks, leads me to believe Piccolo should be in a respectable range to be still standing, with injuries not that much worse than Vegeta and Trunks'. Cell's statement also might imply Vegeta and Trunks were merely the first ones that came to his mind as holding their own against them... not that they were necessarily the only ones.
Vertical wrote:Roughly the same distance from Vegeta as he was at the start of the Android arc (post training, pre-Kami). I didn’t aim for that, I just came to realize it after reading this topic.
Maybe even closer than that? At least in the androids saga Piccolo seemed away enough that he wouldn't be mentioned alongside the SSJs in most strength comparisons, implying still a considerable gap between them. Here Piccolo can stand his ground without serious inuries against an enemy who was already instructed by Cell to kill everyone, even if Cell didn't mention it right away.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Lionel » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:10 am

Vegeta was reeling after one attack from Cell as he was heavily suppressed. Piccolo was obviously on the losing end of his personal tussle with the Cell Jr, but he didn't look to be grimacing in intense pain while his enemy dominatively beat on him like we saw with the humans. If he was weaker than Vegeta and Trunks, it seems like it might have only been by one layer or two. Keep in mind, Vegeta and by association Trunks, must have surpassed half of Goku's power since he was initially confident in his odds of getting involved after the first fight to finish things. In my opinion, Piccolo would have needed to have been close behind for him to not get physically trounced against Cell Jr -- even in the brief period when the Cell Jrs were told to fight seriously in order to kill, Piccolo looked to be standing still.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Vertical » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:48 am

ahill1 wrote:
Vertical wrote:Roughly the same distance from Vegeta as he was at the start of the Android arc (post training, pre-Kami). I didn’t aim for that, I just came to realize it after reading this topic.
Maybe even closer than that? At least in the androids saga Piccolo seemed away enough that he wouldn't be mentioned alongside the SSJs in most strength comparisons, implying still a considerable gap between them. Here Piccolo can stand his ground without serious inuries against an enemy who was already instructed by Cell to kill everyone, even if Cell didn't mention it right away.
Personally, I do have him slightly closer during the Cell Games (an improvement of like 82% of Vegeta previously vs 85% at the Cell Games... I don’t have the numbers on me right now), which is why I said roughly.

He’s still at least a step below Vegeta/Trunks as to not be mentioned by name... but close’ish, IMO.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:43 pm

I always pegged Cell Game Piccolo as roughly equal to bothersome Vegeta and Trunks if not a bit weaker.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:12 pm

Around SSJ Vegeta after he 1st trained in the Rosat at best.

Piccolo believed nobody could have the power to beat Cell after he absorbed #17. Even though this was before he knew how good Rosat was, Vegeta still said Piccolo would be wasting his time training in there and Piccolo himself admited he couldn't do jack against Perfect Cell.

Relying on the Cell Jr fight is pure headcanon, we didn't even see the fight. If we are going to say Piccolo is close to SSJ tier based on a single panel against a holding back enemy, then we might as well say Base Vegeta > SSJ2 Vegeta, Vegeta ~ Recoome, etc.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Saiga » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:13 am

The Boo arc shows that he's quite far outclassed by the Super Saiyans, and I assume he also got stronger over the timeskip so the difference between CG Piccolo and the CG Super Saiyans was probably similar, but maybe not as big.

Cell knocked out CG Vegeta in his super perfect form, not while suppressed so that comparison is flawed.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:18 am

He is strong enough to stand against a Cell Jr, even after Cell orders them to kill their targets, and can trade blows with it, but can't "fight evenly" with it like Trunks and Vegeta can, and is in worse shape than they are. So, basically what the Cell Jr fight shows. It seems wrong to ignore such a clear and convenient indicator of power like that.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by ahill1 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:30 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:He is strong enough to stand against a Cell Jr, even after Cell orders them to kill their targets, and can trade blows with it, but can't "fight evenly" with it like Trunks and Vegeta can, and is in worse shape than they are. So, basically what the Cell Jr fight shows. It seems wrong to ignore such a clear and convenient indicator of power like that.
Can't Piccolo be fighting as well as Vegeta and Trunks? After all, Vegeta and Trunks were only the first names to come to Cell's mind... they weren't necessarily the only ones "barely holding their own".

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Ssjcell » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:57 am

Cell clearly states everybody except trunks and Vegeta were getting wrecked

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:01 am

Kaboom wrote:I typically consider him to be on the same level as "Super" Vegeta was against Stage-2 Cell. That's plenty for him to be considered "on a whole new level" like Goku described him, and for him to at least remain on his feet against a Cell Junior like he did. But at the same time it still doesn't compare to the strength that folks like Cell and Goku are throwing around now.
See but then Trunks and Vegeta were able to hold their own against Cell Juniors and Piccolo couldn't. How could Piccolo be that strong if he falls under the cataegory of "gets dominated by Cell Juniors" along with Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, weakened Goku etc?
Ssjcell wrote:Cell clearly states everybody except trunks and Vegeta were getting wrecked
Yeah pretty much. Everyone other than those two couldn't do anything against the Jrs

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Michsi » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:15 am

PFM18 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:I typically consider him to be on the same level as "Super" Vegeta was against Stage-2 Cell. That's plenty for him to be considered "on a whole new level" like Goku described him, and for him to at least remain on his feet against a Cell Junior like he did. But at the same time it still doesn't compare to the strength that folks like Cell and Goku are throwing around now.
See but then Trunks and Vegeta were able to hold their own against Cell Juniors and Piccolo couldn't. How could Piccolo be that strong if he falls under the cataegory of "gets dominated by Cell Juniors" along with Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, weakened Goku etc?

I can't remember how the anime handles this part, but the manga at least (including the chapter cover) seems to imply that he could hold his own. He is definitely not quite as strong as Vegeta and Trunks, but he is the only one aside from those two who is still standing and fighting when Gohan transforms. It's true that Cell doesn't mention him when he talks about how Vegeta and Trunks are doing okay against Cell Jr. (even though we see that they're not) but he says that mostly to get Gohan riled up because of Goku's condition. In that case, mentioning Piccolo also being danger would've only benefited him.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Lionel » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 am

If the previous statement regarding Cell's damage interaction with Vegeta was directed towards my previous comment then I was referencing Vegeta being kicked away by Cell soon after they had recommenced their fight when the latter had achieved his perfect state.

I do wish there was more of a frame of reference for Piccolo here. Our only indication for what his eventual power was after fighting #17 was Goku's cryptic observations and some visual glances from afar at the Cell Games with the Cell Jrs. If, for example, Vegeta and Trunks were supposed to comparatively represent the Saiyan Prince in his grapple with Freeza at his most suppressed form then where does that leave Piccolo since he's presumably weaker than them at least to a minor degree?

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:53 am

Michsi wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:I typically consider him to be on the same level as "Super" Vegeta was against Stage-2 Cell. That's plenty for him to be considered "on a whole new level" like Goku described him, and for him to at least remain on his feet against a Cell Junior like he did. But at the same time it still doesn't compare to the strength that folks like Cell and Goku are throwing around now.
See but then Trunks and Vegeta were able to hold their own against Cell Juniors and Piccolo couldn't. How could Piccolo be that strong if he falls under the cataegory of "gets dominated by Cell Juniors" along with Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, weakened Goku etc?

I can't remember how the anime handles this part, but the manga at least (including the chapter cover) seems to imply that he could hold his own. He is definitely not quite as strong as Vegeta and Trunks, but he is the only one aside from those two who is still standing and fighting when Gohan transforms. It's true that Cell doesn't mention him when he talks about how Vegeta and Trunks are doing okay against Cell Jr. (even though we see that they're not) but he says that mostly to get Gohan riled up because of Goku's condition. In that case, mentioning Piccolo also being danger would've only benefited him.
No, the manga explicitly states that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to hold their own. I don't see this as a result of Cell trying to get Gohan riled up but rather just a simple observation on his part.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Michsi » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:58 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Michsi wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
See but then Trunks and Vegeta were able to hold their own against Cell Juniors and Piccolo couldn't. How could Piccolo be that strong if he falls under the cataegory of "gets dominated by Cell Juniors" along with Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, weakened Goku etc?

I can't remember how the anime handles this part, but the manga at least (including the chapter cover) seems to imply that he could hold his own. He is definitely not quite as strong as Vegeta and Trunks, but he is the only one aside from those two who is still standing and fighting when Gohan transforms. It's true that Cell doesn't mention him when he talks about how Vegeta and Trunks are doing okay against Cell Jr. (even though we see that they're not) but he says that mostly to get Gohan riled up because of Goku's condition. In that case, mentioning Piccolo also being danger would've only benefited him.
No, the manga explicitly states that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to hold their own. I don't see this as a result of Cell trying to get Gohan riled up but rather just a simple observation on his part.

And yet we don't see Piccolo down for the count. Vegeta and Trunks are most likely singled out because they really are the top two atm, but as the cover and panels clearly show, Piccolo is also still standing and fighting.

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