Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:29 pm

manga chapter 39 got a lot of people talking about whether gohan was in "ultimate" or not, mainly because he didn't have a bang. In the anime Gohan grew a bang in the ToP when he went into "ultimate" and he had one back in Z but he had a bang before his potential was unleashed.

Now Elder Kai told him to power up like when he goes super saiyan and then gohans power went through the roof, he also said "transformation are overrated".

However in Ressurection F, we see gohan goes back into super saiyan and in the ToP arc (anime) its portrayed as a transformation as opposed to a permanent state where he can go from 0-100% of his power without needing to transform/waste energy?

Which one do you think it is?

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:50 pm

Permanent state in the original series.
Transformation in the Super anime.
Permanent state lost and then regained in the Super manga.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:52 pm

Permanent in the original run, transformation when handled by morons.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Cetra
I Live Here
Posts: 3855
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Cetra » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:02 pm

I don't think it was ever an actual permanent state considering Gohan did this "auraless power-up" shockwave right before he punched Super Boo. I think the ritual affected him physically but that he did not automatically have the power itself 24/7. As far as it goes to "permanent" in terms of "he cannot lose the power up", then yes, I suppose he was not meant to actually lose it. Only draw it out. But I would not really say he lost it in Super. It just became harder for him.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy

feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:16 pm

There isn't really much to argue other than the fact that for something to fall under the "transformation" category it requires physical change, and that is exactly what Ultimate form does. The slightest of change is enough for the form to be called a "transformation"; from "becoming giant/turning one's eyes red" to "change the color of the hair/getting a completely new body shape". Therefore, not only Ultimate is a transformation, it has always been one.

Now, as for the question if Ultimate is a permament transformation or not: Who knows? Maybe Toriyama wanted it to be so during the original manga, but it's so vague that we can't say for sure. And then comes Dragon Ball Super and blatantly places it as something not permanent, Gohan has to power-up/transform into it.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Analytic
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:48 pm
Location: US

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Analytic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:29 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Permanent in the original run, transformation when handled by morons.
Came here to say this, basically. Old Kaioshin criticizes transformations and says they're the wrong way of doing things. Seems unlikely that he'd give Gohan another transformation.

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Desassina » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:55 pm

It is best described by this formula:
Gohan's power up = max(Ultimate, base * SSJ) / base
How do you read it? The power up is Super Saiyan in case it multiplies Gohan's base past the Ultimate state. Otherwise, Ultimate is a powered up base past SSJ, in case the former is higher. Since Gohan's regular self won't cease to exist, he can still power it up with Super Saiyan, but his regained fighting sense makes Ultimate higher. In other words: the latter was unkempt to the point of it getting lower. He should stay with it by default though.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:15 pm

It's exactly what it says: Gohan's potential fully unleashed.

In that vein, it's similar to the Super Saiyan transformations; they're also described as a means by which a Saiyan can bring out his/her potential, though Elder Kaioshin's method far surpassed those forms.

Unlike the Super Saiyan forms, though, Ultimate isn't a transformation; Gohan's body doesn't mutate and change in any way, his bang just comes down like it used to normally, more a symptom of his immense power causing some hair to fall onto his forehead than his body actually changing in any way. However, it's also not a permanent state that Gohan is in all the time; Gohan is explicitly able to still turn Super Saiyan from a base form, but he can supercede these transformations by unleashing his full potential through the Elder Kaioshin way.

To sum it up, it's very similar to the "two-base theory" idea that cropped up in the fandom when Goku and Vegeta's enhanced base forms came into play, only in this case, it's actually legitimate for Gohan. He has two levels of power he can access in his base form; his normal untransformed power, and his full potential beyond Super Saiyan. It's a dichotomy of two very different levels of power, not a gradient.

TL;DR of it is that Gohan has his base form that can tap into either base power or Ultimate power, but it's not done as a transformation, merely an enhanced state separate from his normal state.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:33 pm

Gohan had his potential unlocked and then immediately went and fought Super Buu and we don't actually see if he would revert from it during peace times or when he is relaxed. It isn't necessarily shown to be distinctly one or the other in the original run. In Super, Gohan had lost it because he had slacked on his training in Super, and reattained it in a transformation sequence in the time training leading up to the ToP. If anything, we are given clarification as to the mechanics of the Ultimate state/form. Nothing is actually contradicted from the original manga regardless of what the contrarians/pessimists will tell you on the matter.

If anything, the fact that there is a clear aesthetic difference upon being "Ultimate" implies that it was a form in the first place. Or him just using his "power beyond his limits" as Elder Kai described is manifested by the Ultimate form and he sometimes decides not to be using it or he needs to "turn it on."

And in the manga, he arbitrarily acquires it off-screen and this time he associates it with being a human for some reason.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:19 pm

In the original series, it's a state of strength that Gohan can tap into at will with a brief power up (ala transforming into a SSJ).

The Super anime treats Gohan's "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" from as an outright transformation.

Kataphrut
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1704
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:07 am

It's just like Kaioken and Ultra Instinct; it might not technically be a transformation, but it functions the same way as one and is treated as such in games and things like that, so it's much of a muchness. He just unleashes all his dormant power without turning into a Super Saiyan, hence the reason the hair and aura don't change. Super helpfully clarified The Bang as a visual cue for when he's doing it.

He can lose access to it if he neglects training, and he can't stack Super Saiyan on top of it (if he could, you'd think he'd have tried it against Buutenks). These are things that were shown in Toriyama works, for the record.

User avatar
Logania
Regular
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 am

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by Logania » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:56 pm

I always see it as transformation and not a permanent state, but not in the same way as Super Saiyan.

Unlike Guru's potential unlock where he just has a power up and is always with him, Gohan had to power up in the same way as a Super Saiyan to draw it out and also has a few differences to appearence, although very minor ones. With Super's run kind of enforcing the idea further by him losing his state of Potential Unleashed and had to train to gain it back.
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3062
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Is "Potential Unleashed"/"Ultimate" a transformation or Permanent State?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:41 pm

I don't think it's permanent since Resurrection F Gohan is a thing. He has to re-learn how to use it. I think it's in the same boat as Kaioken and Ultra Instinct where it's probably not supposed to be a transformation but it ends up functioning just like one anyway.

Post Reply