Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:49 pm

Doctor. wrote:Not when people can't even agree on something as basic and important as base Goku's strength.
It isn't their fault the fandom is so easily confused. It is made fairly clear where Base Goku stands.

Even so, you could literally stay the same about Base Goku in Z. Nobody can agree where he stands. Some people believe he's stronger than 18 but not Piccolo, some people think he's stronger than Piccolo but not Kaioshin, or there's people that think his Base is stronger than Kaioshin, or people that believe he isn't stronger than any of the aforementioned characters in Base. People can't agree on Base Goku's strength in the Buu arc either.
12x is a ridiculous gap. Characters rarely get that strong through rudimentary training during a timeskip. The only exception to that was Piccolo during the training for the androids.
maybe not during training during a timeskip, but that level of power jump happens fairly often. You mentioned the instance with Piccolo , but if we include all training/power jumps and not just limit it to timeskips the list is of decent size:

-Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks in their training in the ROSAT during the Buu arc.
-Goku's year training with King Kai before the Saiyans showed up which was mostly off-screen training he attained a ~20x boost.
-Goku's like week of training on his way to Namek attained an 11.25x boost.
-Goku's zenkai on Namek, and Vegeta's 2nd to last zenkai on Namek were easily at a clip of 12x

These level of power jumps aren't extremely uncommon. If Goku can gain around a 12x boost in a week then he certainly could do it in 10 years IMO. And Goku's training with King Kai was mostly off-screen and over the time skip so this fits your description to some extent.

Well, that doesn't take into consideration how much Gohan would have regressed either. Like I said, the dialogue implies Goku is probably stronger than Good Buu in Base by the time of EoZ and some consider him Kid Buu level in Base because Uub is the reincarnation and they were fighting evenly when Goku was in Base. There's little reason to believe anyone other than SSJ3 Goku is the strongest of the group by the time of EoZ.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:20 pm

You mean original anime series or manga?

Anime: Pan or Goku Jr/Vegeta Jr
Manga: Goku
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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Desassina » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:38 pm

For every time skip, the strongest got surpassed by Goku, hence the purpose of the former.

Piccolo Daimao into Piccolo Jr.
Pre-teen Gohan before Boo arc Goku.
Ultimate Gohan prior to the manga ending.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:56 pm

Zeno. He was around and living, we just didn't know about him yet[/smartass answer]
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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Lionel » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:30 pm

If we're taking Super into account and discounting the deities then Goku would probably be the most powerful (ningen at least). Why? Because this entire series dedicates itself to transforming him into an unconquerable icon who always manages to reach the top of the mountain and buffet his chest in triumph over everyone else who are left in awe of his might. It's been the premise of the manga since the very beginning.

I would rather not see Zeno get overtaken. He's supposed to represent this multiversal authority with the fates of entire universes resting in the palm of his hands. There's probably still a ways for Goku to climb before reaching the utmost peak of the celestial food chain.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:45 pm

Lionel wrote:If we're taking Super into account and discounting the deities then Goku would probably be the most powerful (ningen at least). Why? Because this entire series dedicates itself to transforming him into an unconquerable icon who always manages to reach the top of the mountain and buffet his chest in triumph over everyone else who are left in awe of his might. It's been the premise of the manga since the very beginning.

I would rather not see Zeno get overtaken. He's supposed to represent this multiversal authority with the fates of entire universes resting in the palm of his hands. There's probably still a ways for Goku to climb before reaching the utmost peak of the celestial food chain.
Well the point was asking who was the strongest at the end of the original series as in, who was the strongest during EoZ. In other words, had Goku surpassed Gohan in the 10 years between the Buu fight and the 28th TB? To me the answer is obviously "yes" but others seem to disagree

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:55 pm

Why do people think Oob is as strong as Boo? To wank Goku? It's far more likely his powers work like Gohan's where he's a regular human until you piss him off at which point his power grows and grows.

I really, really doubt it Goku & Vegeta, in 10 years of peace where they're not training as hard as before and haven't fought ANYONE during that time span will suddenly attain strength gains in the hundreds or thousands after they're barely stronger than Cell Games Gohan after training like madmen for seven years non-stop.
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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Desassina » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:29 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I really, really doubt it Goku & Vegeta, in 10 years of peace where they're not training as hard as before and haven't fought ANYONE during that time span will suddenly attain strength gains in the hundreds or thousands after they're barely stronger than Cell Games Gohan after training like madmen for seven years non-stop.
I only have Gohan with twice the power of Goku in their best forms. The point being that any valid depiction of power whose gap is small has little evidence against it in those 10 years. We had better leave it open instead of "really, really doubting" (more like "it's wrong") what Battle of Gods ended up confirming anyway. However, I'm not in the camp of Goku's "base God" to defend Oob with the power of Pure Boo, because it should have no retroactive action as opposed to DBS being merely a sequel.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:34 pm

It's still Gohan. Goku is shown to be still weaker than Gotenks in equal forms based on his fight with Oob, and Gohan is considerably above SSJ3 Gotenks.
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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:53 pm

Desassina wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I really, really doubt it Goku & Vegeta, in 10 years of peace where they're not training as hard as before and haven't fought ANYONE during that time span will suddenly attain strength gains in the hundreds or thousands after they're barely stronger than Cell Games Gohan after training like madmen for seven years non-stop.
I only have Gohan with twice the power of Goku in their best forms. The point being that any valid depiction of power whose gap is small has little evidence against it in those 10 years. We had better leave it open instead of "really, really doubting" (more like "it's wrong") what Battle of Gods ended up confirming anyway. However, I'm not in the camp of Goku's "base God" to defend Oob with the power of Pure Boo, because it should have no retroactive action as opposed to DBS being merely a sequel.
This is a thread where we ignore everything new and work on the manga's original framework of "nothing happened for 10 years". That's why I find it really doubtful Goku and Vegeta would become hundreds of times more powerful in BASE form alone when they worked their asses off, training harder than ever before for seven years only to barely be stronger than Cell Games Gohan.

To be as blunt as an atom bomb, it reeks of wanking Goku because he must be the strongest at the end. I blame the anime for this too where they actually make him the strongest by giving him and Vegeta a post-Vegetto boost, allowing them to beat SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan copies with just SS.
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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Desassina » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:02 pm

Ah, so you were talking about base. Never mind, then.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:44 pm

Well considering Goku and Vegeta did nothing but train for 7 years and were still only slightly stronger than cell games gohan in the same form. I highly doubt they made up more than 10 times gap in the case of Goku and over 40 times for Vegeta in 10 years post Buu and since Gohan didn't look like a twig like he did in RoF , its hard for me to believe his power dropped a crap ton either. So probably Gohan

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Apslup » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:01 pm

If we're counting DBS, it would be Goku because of SSJB and Ultra Instinct (even though he can't use it after the ToP. I want it to return in the Broly movie though).

If we're not counting DBS, it would be Gohan, but I do feel that he would be weaker mentally since he doesn't have the will to fight and he just doesn't want to use his power.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by sintzu » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:30 pm

Before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this wraps up, I want to end it.” Because I thought there was no way for Goku to get any stronger than he already was.
Toriyama says very clearly that Goku (and everyone else I assume) within the context of the original manga was as strong as he could get so what we saw him do against Buu was his peak which makes sense as like ekrolo2 pointed out, Goku and Vegeta didn't gain that much compared to their Cell arc selves as Vegeta needed a boost from Babidi while Goku could barely control Ssj3 despite both going through 7 years of non stop training.

Gohan was the strongest character against Buu and there's nothing that says he lost his power so it's safe to say he was just as strong 10 years later. Goku would be #2 but despite Toriyama saying he couldn't get any stronger, I think it's safe to say he could use Ssj3 better after 10 years of training. Vegeta comes in at #3 as the Daizenshuu says he trained his body to its peak to reach Ssj2 so that alongside the power up he got from Babidi were probably as far as he could go. Although Gohan by far has Goku and Vegeta beat in raw power, I think their constant training would give them an edge when it comes to fighting skills. Piccolo is #4 as it was made clear that Goten and Trunks didn't train much so I doubt they surpassed him (I put him on Assj Vegeta's level from when he fought Cell).
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Not when people can't even agree on something as basic and important as base Goku's strength.
You could literally say the same about Base Goku in Z.
With enough effort you can pretty much sort out where everyone stands in compared to one another within the original manga. Good luck doing that in Super as each writer just does what they want regardless of it lining up with what was previously established. A great example of this was when Goku fought Kale and Culifla where he went from Ssj2 to SsjG and the fight pretty much continued as is despite SsjG being on a completely different level than Ssj3 which in itself was leaps and bounds above Ssj2.
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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by ahill1 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:36 pm

While I think Goku has certainly gotten a lot stronger in those 10 years, I'd say the title of the strongest warrior still belongs to Gohan.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:16 pm

sintzu wrote:With enough effort you can pretty much sort out where everyone stands in compared to one another within the original manga. Good luck doing that in Super as each writer just does what they want regardless of it lining up with what was previously established. A great example of this was when Goku fought Kale and Culifla where he went from Ssj2 to SsjG and the fight pretty much continued as is despite SsjG being on a completely different level than Ssj3 which in itself was leaps and bounds above Ssj2.
The point is, if the litmus test for how good the scaling in the series is, is whether or not people can agree on something as important as Base Goku's power, then the "Z" portion of the original manga fails miserably also. He described that as some kind of end all be all indicator as to the quality of the power scaling in the series, but this logic is inherently hypocritical in nature when it applies to both sides. Some people think Goku is stronger than Piccolo in the Buu arc because there are implications around it, even though it would make no damn sense because of the scaling statements/showings surrounding the implication, some think he is stronger than Piccolo but not Kaioshin, some think he is stronger than 18 and not Piccolo, and some think he is weaker than 18 in Base. People can't agree how strong Goku's Base is in the Buu arc either is the point here.

And frankly, I think your example is quite laughable. That is quite literally not even close to what happened. Goku as a SSJ2 was fighting evenly if not being at a disadvantage, and upon going SSG he started completely dominating them. Sure, that scene and the following one with Base Kefla seem to indicate that it isn't as large of a boost as it was originally shown to be but that makes sense if Goku was able to make the power his own to some extent and boost his other forms. It fits perfectly well with the explanations we are given, and again, your description of the scene is horrendously inaccurate.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:17 am

It's time to debunk some of this stuff in this thread.

1. It says original timeline so no DBS.

2. Where is everyone getting this Buu arc Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are barely stronger than Ssj Cell Games Gohan? Vegeta simply said he is stronger than him. Gohan was the strongest fighter at the time so he is the only person they could compare him to anyway and the time skip training isn't even linear. For example Goku and Gohan went into the HTC for 11 months and are stronger than everyone else. Vegeta went in twice and still was not stronger than Cell. Vegeta said he could beat Dabura in 5 mins if he wanted to, someone who is comparable to Cell in power.

3. What evidence proves Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj3 Goku? Gotenks has done nothing to support such a claim.

4. Base GT Goku is stronger than Majin Buu and that's 5 years after EOZ so why wouldn't Goku after 10 years be stronger than Ultimate Gohan?


At the EOZ Goku is the strongest character and Vegeta is second.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Pantalones » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:42 am

2. Where is everyone getting this Buu arc Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are barely stronger than Ssj2 Cell Games Gohan?
Basically, it's because raging SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games is constantly used as a "measuring stick" throughout the early Buu Saga -- which wouldn't make sense if that level of power has been completely left in the dust.

Vegeta comments that Goku has "also surpassed Gohan" upon realizing that he can go SSj2 -- meaning Goku and Vegeta in their regular Super Saiyan forms have not reached that level even after 7 years of non-stop training. Since SSj2 is only twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, that would mean that neither of them are twice as strong as Cell Games Gohan yet. Most of the power gained in their training was just closing the gap that existed between them and Gohan back then, and learning how to unlock the higher Super Saiyan forms.

A bit later, Piccolo comments on Majin Vegeta's power, saying that he's "maybe" stronger than Gohan was back at the Cell Games. Implying that if he's stronger, he isn't a lot stronger, even after the power boost he got from Babidi's spell.

And there's comments about how Gohan had gotten weaker due to lack of training, but can win against Dabura (and possibly even the initial, suppressed Fat Buu!) if he gets angry and lets out his full power -- the power he used against Cell. This also fits pretty well with Goku and Vegeta brushing off Dabura as no big deal after comparing him to Cell... either of them could just go SSj2 and finish him off right away if they wanted.

Everything points toward Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Cell Games SSj2 Gohan in their SSj2 forms, but not by a huge amount.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:18 pm

Pantalones wrote:
2. Where is everyone getting this Buu arc Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are barely stronger than Ssj2 Cell Games Gohan?
Basically, it's because raging SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games is constantly used as a "measuring stick" throughout the early Buu Saga -- which wouldn't make sense if that level of power has been completely left in the dust.

Vegeta comments that Goku has "also surpassed Gohan" upon realizing that he can go SSj2 -- meaning Goku and Vegeta in their regular Super Saiyan forms have not reached that level even after 7 years of non-stop training. Since SSj2 is only twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, that would mean that neither of them are twice as strong as Cell Games Gohan yet. Most of the power gained in their training was just closing the gap that existed between them and Gohan back then, and learning how to unlock the higher Super Saiyan forms.

A bit later, Piccolo comments on Majin Vegeta's power, saying that he's "maybe" stronger than Gohan was back at the Cell Games. Implying that if he's stronger, he isn't a lot stronger, even after the power boost he got from Babidi's spell.

And there's comments about how Gohan had gotten weaker due to lack of training, but can win against Dabura (and possibly even the initial, suppressed Fat Buu!) if he gets angry and lets out his full power -- the power he used against Cell. This also fits pretty well with Goku and Vegeta brushing off Dabura as no big deal after comparing him to Cell... either of them could just go SSj2 and finish him off right away if they wanted.

Everything points toward Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Cell Games SSj2 Gohan in their SSj2 forms, but not by a huge amount.

I really doubt Ssj2 is really 2x Ssj Gohan wrecked Cell and the Cell Jr's way to easily for that to be possible. Not only that but Goku and Vegeta weren't that far from ssj2 to begin with.

You really think the gap between Gohan and Vegeta and Goku is that big that it took 7 years for them to be stronger than him by a little? Vegeta and Goku trained way harder than they did in the HTC they both kind of imply this. What Piccolo said doesn't even make sense. So that means Super Perfect Cell would damage Buu saga Ssj2 Goku which is impossible since he damage Ssj2 Gohan and why would they need ssj2 to beat Dabura at this point in the series ? That means Vegeta without his majin powers is weaker than Cell Games Gohan which should not be possible.
.All this doesn't add with what the statements say.Gohan would not have beaten Buu if he had gotten angry no way in hell.

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Re: Who is the strongest (living) character at the end of the original series?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:48 pm

Goku and Vegeta had reached the point of diminishing gains especially when it came to base form. Just cause they trained for 7 years doesn't mean they became way stronger.

It took a burst of FP ssj2 goku for vegeta to say he was stronger than cell games gohan

Even piccolo said majin vegeta "might even be stronger than gohan from back then"

There's enough evidence to suggest a very small gap.

That also ties in with why ssg level of power was something goku couldn't even comprehend or reach on his own because he had slowed down so much. He could have trained for the remaining 4 decades of his life and not come close to even super vegito tier

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