Is anyone with the belief that Base Goku post SSJG > Z Super Vegetto?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I have come across two beliefs from the fanbase, that no, he wasn’t and no he didn’t inherit the power of SSJG in his base. Is there a night and day explanation from the manga and anime of how it worked when god wore off in his fight with Beerus!?

[ekrolo2]

In the manga he's probably not stronger than Vegetto without God and Blue, I'm not sure for the anime.

[Kaboom]

Back when we just had the two new movies, Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, the commonly-accepted idea was that Goku had actually absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into himself during the former, and by the latter could now use at least most of it within just his base form. Hence him being able to fight against the massively-powered-up Freeza even before going SSGSS. Him now being stronger than even Super Vegetto wouldn't be far-fetched if he was really wielding godly power within his base form.

Super, though, decided to be much less consistent and more confusing. It started out seeming to operate under that same logic, but as the series passed the movie adaptations and continued on, they strayed away from it. Goku and Vegeta went back to using the traditional, gold-haired, non-godly Super Saiyan forms quite often, and often had trouble against regular non-godly fighters in both those and their base forms.

That would indicate that either A) all of these regular mooks were up on a godly level, or B) the "god-ki in base form" concept had more or less been abandoned, and Goku and Vegeta only had god-level power when they actually used the god forms, red-haired SS God and then SS Blue. I'm more inclined to believe option B.

[Lionel]

Well even if you want to discount the statement about Goku having incorporated that power into his normal state, there are still the tangible feats of him and Vegeta, untransformed, eclipsing SSJ Gohan in the ROF arc, both in the anime and manga. Gohan was acknowledged as the strongest opponent on the battlefield, stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo. However, that same Gohan was having none of Freeza in his most suppressed form (in the anime he was humiliatingly brought to his knees from just a small barrage of Death Beams). By comparison, Goku was trading blows with Freeza in his final form while admitting that he didn't feel like he needed to transform -- keeping in mind that 100% should still exist.

At the very least, Base Goku was probably on the same spectrum as SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. By the time of the Tournament of Power's commencement, he's probably surpassed Buu arc Vegetto altogether.

[zarmack]

Back when we just had the two new movies, Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, the commonly-accepted idea was that Goku had actually absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into himself during the former, and by the latter could now use at least most of it within just his base form. Hence him being able to fight against the massively-powered-up Freeza even before going SSGSS. Him now being stronger than even Super Vegetto wouldn't be far-fetched if he was really wielding godly power within his base form.

Super, though, decided to be much less consistent and more confusing. It started out seeming to operate under that same logic, but as the series passed the movie adaptations and continued on, they strayed away from it. Goku and Vegeta went back to using the traditional, gold-haired, non-godly Super Saiyan forms quite often, and often had trouble against regular non-godly fighters in both those and their base forms.

That would indicate that either A) all of these regular mooks were up on a godly level, or B) the "god-ki in base form" concept had more or less been abandoned, and Goku and Vegeta only had god-level power when they actually used the god forms, red-haired SS God and then SS Blue. I'm more inclined to believe option B.

You are forgetting that transformations in DB are multipliers of their base's power, not fixed tiers or sets of power.
By absorbing the power he had in SSG against Beerus into his base, his base became stronger than that. Absorbing that level of power into his base doesn't mean he can't stack transformations on top of that. Everything in Super suggest that option A) is correct, which was definitely made clear with base Vegeta stomping SSJ3 Gotenks and base Goku matching Fit Buu (who is much stronger than Fat Buu, who Goku needed SSJ3 to beat in the Buu arc).

So yes, base Goku and base Vegeta since the start of the RoF arc would easily solo all of Z, including Buu arc SSJ3 Vegito.

[PFM18]

Super, though, decided to be much less consistent and more confusing. It started out seeming to operate under that same logic, but as the series passed the movie adaptations and continued on, they strayed away from it. Goku and Vegeta went back to using the traditional, gold-haired, non-godly Super Saiyan forms quite often, and often had trouble against regular non-godly fighters in both those and their base forms.

It isn't that it is less consistent it is just that they completely changed what was being used in the movie continuity altogether. In the movie continuity, they had achieved a new form of "Saiyan Beyond God" that was described as "using the power of a god without changing form" which obviously implies God Ki in their base form. The words "ki" and "power" are used interchangeably considering that the power readings that they use to have were literally just a measure of their ki output. And of course, the "without changing form" is actually noteworthy because he needed to change form into SSG to utilize God Ki before. Of course, this new Base form with God Ki invalidated the golden SSJ forms and it was supposed to replace them and render them obsolete.

In Super, we receive absolutely no indication that Goku and Vegeta had God Ki in their base form or even that they were stronger than SSG like they were in RoF. Then in the Universe 6 Arc we see them use their golden SSJ forms. So by this point, it should have become obvious that Saiyan Beyond God was retconned from the movies. It isn't inconsistent at all, it is consistently showing the "Saiyan Beyond God" premise to no longer exist. So the fact that they were still using their golden SSJ forms makes a lot of sense and shouldn't be confusing anyone but for some reason it does.

His "absorbed into base" stuff is a load of crap though. Goku and Beerus established that he had retained that level of power in his SSJ form and nothing more. He had a punch in which he broke his limits but that was it. If he had actually surpassed SSG/SSJ in Base, it would have been given more emphasis and it would have been corroborated by ANY statement during RoF. But nobody says anything about Base Goku being the highest ki they had felt during RoF and why? Because it wasn't, he didn't surpass his SSJ self that was on par with SSG in his Base form. So his SSJ from BoG forward was stronger than SSG but not his Base form.

By the time of later in the series, Goku is so far removed from BoG when his SSJ was on par with BoG SSG that his SSJ should dwarf BoG SSG by this point. Considering his SSJ dwarfs SSG, it should have surprised absolutely nobody when the Potafu Arc depicted his Base as being way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. For some reason, it surprised like everyone and everyone wrote it off as just filler, but it is extremely consistent with what we had seen from that point. Then it is reinforced even in the final arc when Buu trains and then Goku is shocked and impressed that Buu was able to improve so much, and yet Goku is still casually fighting him in his Base form. It shows how far above he was above Buu in his Base prior to this point.

But anyway, in my opinion, his Base was stronger than everyone in the Buu arc outside of SSJ Vegetto since the BoG arc, and by the end of the Universe 6 arc he was as strong as SSJ Vegetto in Base, and by the time of the ToP he is stronger than a hypothetical Buu arc SSJ3 Vegetto. This is all up to interpretation, but the idea of Goku's SSJ being stronger than SSG was explicitly stated/shown in BoG and it isn't really up for debate. You're just denying the facts at that point.

By absorbing the power he had in SSG against Beerus into his base, his base became stronger than that.

No idea where this idea came from. At NO POINT, did anybody state that "his SSG power was absorbed into Base" or even imply that his Base was stronger than SSG. The only slight indication of his Base being stronger than BoG was one punch that Goku threw during BoG towards the SoD. But then it was described it as "power beyond his limits" and obviously indicates it being temporary, and when they made the comments about absorption and "making the power his own" it is all when Goku is in his SSJ form. Hence SSJ=SSG. During RoF, we get a grand total of zero statements or "feats" indicating that his Base was stronger than BoG SSG, if he was at that level we would have seen a comment like "Oh this is the highest ki I have ever felt" or something like that. We get no statement remotely indicating Base>SSG, and if anything we get the opposite indication because it isn't stated that Goku surpassed SSG until he went SSB.

Is there a night and day explanation from the manga and anime of how it worked when god wore off in his fight with Beerus!?

Yes, after God wore off, Goku's SSJ was equal to his SSG from a moment prior. That's it. There's absolutely nothing else to it, people try to over complicate things but it's a simple show. Goku and Beerus state this to be the case, and we receive no indication in the entire series that this has changed at any point.

Then later, the narrator and episode title state that Goku had surpassed SSG. Hence:

SSJ(post-ritual)>SSG>Base(post-ritual)

[Ssjcell]

Yes that's how he fought beerus and frieza without SSG

[Polyphase Avatron]

Sometimes he is and sometimes he isn't... that's what you get with inconsistent powerscaling.

[Mister_Popo]

The BOG- and ROF-movies left u with the impression he was. Super retconned that impression IMHO.
TOP base Goku is incredibly strong, but stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 BOG Vegetto? I sincerely have my doubts.

[Kataphrut]

That idea went out the window once they had to start fighting characters that weren't meant to be God tier. I said before in another thread and got shouted down for it, but if Goku and Vegeta are as strong as Super Saiyan Gods in their base form, then so are Cabba, Frost and every nobody in the Tournament of Power that's able to fight them somewhat evenly in base. And that shit don't fly. They can be stronger in their base forms, but to say they're SSG level is pushing it too much, especially since SSG itself came back.

I like to think Z Vegetto, given he was so far above everyone else in the Buu saga would have been a contender in Super. I picture him at kind of an early SSB level, meaning he could hold his own against Golden Freeza, Hit and possibly Black. He'd still be no match against Beerus, but Super Saiyan God wasn't a match for Beerus either, so it's much of a muchness.

[PFM18]

That idea went out the window once they had to start fighting characters that weren't meant to be God tier.

That's just your head canon.

I said before in another thread and got shouted down for it, but if Goku and Vegeta are as strong as Super Saiyan Gods in their base form

Goku and Vegeta were never as strong as Super Saiyan God in their base form. So that wouldn't be changing anything. They were never stated to be that strong or implied really by any dialogue at all. SSJ Goku was stated to be equal to SSG from a moment prior by both Goku himself and Beerus. In other words, it was SSJ=SSG at the time and not Base.

And that shit don't fly. They can be stronger in their base forms, but to say they're SSG level is pushing it too much, especially since SSG itself came back.

SSG coming back doesn't really indicate a retcon at all. SSJ was as strong as SSG, but it was still distinguished because his SSJ didn't have God Ki and SSG did. SSG is a reflection of using God Ki, and so it should never be restricted from being used, that doesn't make any sense.

I like to think Z Vegetto, given he was so far above everyone else in the Buu saga would have been a contender in Super. I picture him at kind of an early SSB level, meaning he could hold his own against Golden Freeza, Hit and possibly Black.

Considering that SSJ3 Gotenks was fodder to the Base Saiyans, Goku was really impressed that Buu could compete with his Base form and First Form Freeza completely dominated everyone only for Goku to be even with Final Form Freeza, there's no way Z Vegetto could compete with SSB in any capacity.

[SSJgogeto]

I think this, but just for a while. More specifically: after the fight with Beerus and before the end of training with Whis.

Is there a night and day explanation from the manga and anime of how it worked when god wore off in his fight with Beerus!?

I don't think so.

B) the "god-ki in base form" concept had more or less been abandoned, and Goku and Vegeta only had god-level power when they actually used the god forms, red-haired SS God and then SS Blue. I'm more inclined to believe option B.

Yeah, me too.

[PFM18]

I

B) the "god-ki in base form" concept had more or less been abandoned, and Goku and Vegeta only had god-level power when they actually used the god forms, red-haired SS God and then SS Blue. I'm more inclined to believe option B.

Yeah, me too.

We never actually were given the idea from Super that they used God Ki in their base form. So them only having God Ki in their SSG/SSB forms ONLY isn't a change, nor was anything being abandoned.

The only time we were given any indication that Goku and Vegeta were going to be using God Ki in their Base was in the RoF movie. As soon as Goku and Vegeta were sensed in Base in Super, and they used their golden SSJ states, it was clear that "Saiyan Beyond God" was gone/retconned from the movie continuity.

[SSJgogeto]

Well, technically Super isn't really clear about the subject. We saw almost the same scene from the movie in the anime: Frieza in his final form - when his first form was enough to defeat SS Gohan easily - versus Goku with a white aura. If I'm right, Vegeta did that too.

Personally, I believe that "Beyond God" is just a step, not the final objective. That would explain why they don't use that form regularly, considering of course "Beyond God" is a thing in the anime.

[Mister_Popo]

If they had simply not used 'Saiyan Beyond God' but SSG in stead during ROF, things would have been so much easier to understand.
In my headcanon in order to explain the retcon, 'SBG' is just the precurser of non-ritual SSG in the anime, without the actual Red transformation and God-Ki but already pretty evenly matched in 'power multiplier' as seen during TOP.

[PFM18]

It's very simple. "Saiyan Beyond God" was explained to be a Base form with God Ki in the movie. In Super, we only see comments about God Ki when they use their SSG/SSB forms and characters can easily sense Base Goku/Vegeta. Saiyan Beyond God was supposed to replace the golden SSJ forms, the SSJ forms were used in the U6 arc.

there's no convoluted head canon required. Super retconned the movie. There's no retcon within Super, Suoer just changed things from the movie. That's why the retellings even exist, to clarify/change things like that.

[BlueBasilisk]

Well, technically Super isn't really clear about the subject. We saw almost the same scene from the movie in the anime: Frieza in his final form - when his first form was enough to defeat SS Gohan easily - versus Goku with a white aura. If I'm right, Vegeta did that too.

Personally, I believe that "Beyond God" is just a step, not the final objective. That would explain why they don't use that form regularly, considering of course "Beyond God" is a thing in the anime.

The white aura is just how Goku and Vegeta's ki looks in base form. They have that while training with Whis before he ever teaches them to use god ki. Krillin can sense Goku's ki until he transforms until Super Saiyan Blue so he wasn't using it to fight Frieza.

[PFM18]

Well, technically Super isn't really clear about the subject. We saw almost the same scene from the movie in the anime: Frieza in his final form - when his first form was enough to defeat SS Gohan easily - versus Goku with a white aura. If I'm right, Vegeta did that too.

Personally, I believe that "Beyond God" is just a step, not the final objective. That would explain why they don't use that form regularly, considering of course "Beyond God" is a thing in the anime.

The white aura is just how Goku and Vegeta's ki looks in base form. They have that while training with Whis before he ever teaches them to use god ki. Krillin can sense Goku's ki until he transforms until Super Saiyan Blue so he wasn't using it to fight Frieza.

Bingo. The white aura doesn't really mean much of anything. It doesn't indicate "God Ki" in some kind of convoluted way. It is simply the aura that emanates from him when he isn't in the golden SSJ or blue SSGSS forms. If there was God Ki involved, someone would have commented on it or we'd be given some kind of indication

[ZombieVito]

Nope.

E45 pretty much confirmed base Vegeta isn't dimensions apart from SS3 Gotenks. At best I would say the are on Buuhan's level.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku was shown to be comparable to Gohan in the same form before he even regained his power from the Boo arc. So Goku's current strength as a Super Saiyan is demonstrably below Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc.