Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

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Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:07 am

If not then would Vegetto undergoing the rage power-up, the one that Vegeta unleashed upon seeing Bulma get slapped by Beerus, have made Vegetto strong enough?
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:20 am

Exactly as goku told us, no. (in the anime adaptation) beerus, even at 1%, is far superior to at least 75% of gt's cast, no one with a power similar to one of z could even scratch him.

In the manga no recalls to the fusion are made in bog, so , maybe there yes.
Ritual god anime >>>>>>>>ritual god manga

For the rage boost question, following the logging, if Vegeta gets from nearly 0% (infinitely small part of 1% beerus) to his 4,4%(roughly 8% via rage garrikku ho), if vwgetto would had taken such a boost, he would have been x380 Vegeta (in DBS, for potara I use "sum x190" as multiplier), so he'd shitstomped beerus
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:32 am

p-hyvo wrote:Exactly as goku told us, no. (in the anime adaptation) beerus, even at 1%, is far superior to at least 75% of gt's cast, no one with a power similar to one of z could even scratch him.
I imagine that manga Vegetto would get roflstomped since he was unwilling and/or unable to battle Boohan in base, but anime Vegetto on the other hand was actually stronger than Boohan in just his base. If that power was then multiplied by 400-fold then I'm sure Vegetto could've managed something against Beerus. A guide seemed to suggest that anime SSJ Vegetto was actually on par with SSJ4 or even slightly stronger, that leads me to believe SSJ3 Vegetto could be in the high-end tier of GT's cast.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by BlazeDVH » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:19 am

Goku says even fusion is not enough to beat suppressed Beerus. So Beerus > Ssj3 Vegito. About rage boost we know Rage Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku it can means rage boost is around 5x multiplier(?). So Vegito with rage-boost will beat suppressed Beerus.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:34 am

BlazeDVH wrote:Goku says even fusion is not enough to beat suppressed Beerus. So Beerus > Ssj3 Vegito. About rage boost we know Rage Ssj2 Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku it can means rage boost is around 5x multiplier(?). So Vegito with rage-boost will beat suppressed Beerus.
We don't know if Goku was specifically referring to SSJ3 Vegetto. He had only fused with Vegeta once while using SSJ so its reasonable to think he had Super Vegetto in mind when stating that. Goku may not have been sure that Vegetto could even use SSJ3.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:18 am

theherodjl wrote:
p-hyvo wrote:Exactly as goku told us, no. (in the anime adaptation) beerus, even at 1%, is far superior to at least 75% of gt's cast, no one with a power similar to one of z could even scratch him.
I imagine that manga Vegetto would get roflstomped since he was unwilling and/or unable to battle Boohan in base, but anime Vegetto on the other hand was actually stronger than Boohan in just his base. If that power was then multiplied by 400-fold then I'm sure Vegetto could've managed something against Beerus. A guide seemed to suggest that anime SSJ Vegetto was actually on par with SSJ4 or even slightly stronger, that leads me to believe SSJ3 Vegetto could be in the high-end tier of GT's cast.
Base vegetto(manga) Is a bit weaker gohan buuhan, bit stringere gohan buutenks.
Again, someone got wrong what the guide said :
The guide was assumig if ewe calculate with se same goku/Vegeta in base . let me make it simpler :
Ssjr buu saga goku ≤ ssj buu saga vegetto, or ssj4 baby saga goku ≤ssj baby saga vegeth
No way the statement was intended cross-series, because following gt's scaling EVERYONE after m2 is stronger than ssj z vegetto, even pan and baby (toddler) .
Furthermore, following the dialogue lines, baby Vegeta after transforming the first time said that his ki was far superior to that of every saiyan ever existed, putting him above ssj z vegeth in strength by default.
Z vegetto is no one in gt's standard, anyone can own him, exclding ledgig , sigma force, and the older enemies that attacked earth during s17 arc
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:19 am

p-hyvo wrote:
theherodjl wrote:
p-hyvo wrote:Exactly as goku told us, no. (in the anime adaptation) beerus, even at 1%, is far superior to at least 75% of gt's cast, no one with a power similar to one of z could even scratch him.
I imagine that manga Vegetto would get roflstomped since he was unwilling and/or unable to battle Boohan in base, but anime Vegetto on the other hand was actually stronger than Boohan in just his base. If that power was then multiplied by 400-fold then I'm sure Vegetto could've managed something against Beerus. A guide seemed to suggest that anime SSJ Vegetto was actually on par with SSJ4 or even slightly stronger, that leads me to believe SSJ3 Vegetto could be in the high-end tier of GT's cast.
Base vegetto(manga) Is a bit weaker than buuhan, bit stronger than buutenks.
Again, someone got wrong what the guide said :
The guide was assumig if ewe calculate with se same goku/Vegeta in base . let me make it simpler :
Ssj4 buu saga goku ≤ ssj buu saga vegetto, or ssj4 baby saga goku ≤ssj baby saga vegeth.

No way the statement was intended cross-series, because following gt's scaling EVERYONE after m2 is stronger than ssj z vegetto, even pan and baby (toddler) .
Furthermore, following the dialogue lines, baby Vegeta after transforming the first time said that his ki was far superior to that of every saiyan ever existed, putting him above ssj z vegeth in strength by default.
Z vegetto is no one in gt's standard, anyone can own him, exclding ledgig , sigma force, and the older enemies that attacked earth during s17 arc. Even lowballing , every gt fighter from s17 arc on is by default stronger than ssj z vegetto
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:35 am

Goku said fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus but:
-SSJ God wasn't enough either
-He didn't know how strong SSJ3 Vegito would be and it's unknown if anyone even thought about that when making this dialogue.

I believe Goku only meant SSJ Vegito from Buu saga (not even BoG saga). So while SSJ3 Vegito probably wouldn't beat Beerus either, he would totally put a decent fight anyway. Better than SSJ God? Hard to say. He could actually have superior power to SSJ God but with lack of god ki he wouldn't be able to sense Beerus and would still lose.
theherodjl wrote:A guide seemed to suggest that anime SSJ Vegetto was actually on par with SSJ4 or even slightly stronger, that leads me to believe SSJ3 Vegetto could be in the high-end tier of GT's cast.
Hypothetical SSJ Vegito from GT, not DBZ.
Super Baby was already stated to be stronger than SSJ Vegito from Z and SSJ4 Goku was at least about 10 times stronger than him (he was about equal to Golden Oozaru who was at least 10 times stronger than Super Baby 2) so this statement doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:53 am

theherodjl wrote:A guide seemed to suggest that anime SSJ Vegetto was actually on par with SSJ4 or even slightly stronger, that leads me to believe SSJ3 Vegetto could be in the high-end tier of GT's cast.
Hypothetical SSJ Vegito from GT, not DBZ.
Super Baby was already stated to be stronger than SSJ Vegito from Z and SSJ4 Goku was at least about 10 times stronger than him (he was about equal to Golden Oozaru who was at least 10 times stronger than Super Baby 2) so this statement doesn't make any sense.[/quote]


as i said, he just misinterpreted the statement. you are right, it was between both from buu saga or both from baby saga, not cross series
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:35 am

The notion that Goku was thinking about SSJ3 Vegetto needs to stop. It's unsupported headcanon.

Fusion counterparts have not been shown to use a transformation that only one can use right off the bat. SSJ3 Gotenks is the exception because he trained for it.

How much stronger would a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto be compared to SSG Goku? We will never know because that was not what Goku was referring to in context, and it's pointless to discuss it.

That being said, I do not think a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto would beat Beerus either.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:26 am

Rakurai wrote:The notion that Goku was thinking about SSJ3 Vegetto needs to stop. It's unsupported headcanon.

Fusion counterparts have not been shown to use a transformation that only one can use right off the bat. SSJ3 Gotenks is the exception because he trained for it.

How much stronger would a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto be compared to SSG Goku? We will never know because that was not what Goku was referring to in context, and it's pointless to discuss it.

That being said, I do not think a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto would beat Beerus either.
Why is it unsupported? What logic is there for Goku to make such a comment about a fusion's chances against beating Beerus and he not be talking about the limits of what the fusion could do? You say that context supports that he's only talking about Super Saiyan Vegetto, when the context sooner supports that fusion just probably wouldn't work, period.
Goku: “This ain’t good. The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta…and even then, I don’t think I could win.”
There's no reason for him to just be assuming or talking about one specific form if there are others in Vegetto's repertoire. Likewise, there's no evidence that fusion counterparts can't use transformations that only one of the constituent fighters has access to. Vegetto is the only fusion we've seen where it's in question as to whether he could transform into forms that one constituent fighter had that the other didn't, and in neither time that we've seen Vegetto has that been a factor. He only used Super Saiyan against Buu because he didn't need to go any higher to totally dominate him, and he went to Blue against Zamasu, which was the highest form either had.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:25 pm

I do wonder how well post Rage Vegeta rage boost , Vegetto would have done in comparison to SSG Goku.

To answer your question, Vegetto gets stomped out just like Goku did

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:53 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:Why is it unsupported? What logic is there for Goku to make such a comment about a fusion's chances against beating Beerus and he not be talking about the limits of what the fusion could do? You say that context supports that he's only talking about Super Saiyan Vegetto, when the context sooner supports that fusion just probably wouldn't work, period.
Goku: “This ain’t good. The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta…and even then, I don’t think I could win.”
There's no reason for him to just be assuming or talking about one specific form if there are others in Vegetto's repertoire. Likewise, there's no evidence that fusion counterparts can't use transformations that only one of the constituent fighters has access to. Vegetto is the only fusion we've seen where it's in question as to whether he could transform into forms that one constituent fighter had that the other didn't, and in neither time that we've seen Vegetto has that been a factor. He only used Super Saiyan against Buu because he didn't need to go any higher to totally dominate him, and he went to Blue against Zamasu, which was the highest form either had.
It's unsupported because it has never, ever been mentioned in any of the guidebooks or databooks post-DBZ. Not the Daizenshuus, not the Chouzenshuus, not the Super Exciting Guide. They mention Gotenks being able to access SSJ2 during the boys' training even though we've never seen it but they can't mention Vegetto hypothetically going SSJ3? They don't list Vegetto as a SSJ3 user, only Goku & Gotenks.

It's on you or anybody to prove with official evidence that fusion counterparts can use transformations only one of the constituent on the fly. That's how burden of proof works.

Z saga SSJ3 Vegetto is headcanon, period.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:18 pm

Rakurai wrote:
It's unsupported because it has never, ever been mentioned in any of the guidebooks or databooks post-DBZ. Not the Daizenshuus, not the Chouzenshuus, not the Super Exciting Guide. They mention Gotenks being able to access SSJ2 during the boys' training even though we've never seen it but they can't mention Vegetto hypothetically going SSJ3? They don't list Vegetto as a SSJ3 user, only Goku & Gotenks.

It's on you or anybody to prove with official evidence that fusion counterparts can use transformations only one of the constituent on the fly. That's how burden of proof works.

Z saga SSJ3 Vegetto is headcanon, period.
They mention Gotenks being able to access Super Saiyan 2 because he has Super Saiyan 3, and as far as we know, it's not possible to skip transformations as far as acquiring them is concerned (In order to reach Super Saiyan 3, you need to have reached Super Saiyan 2). So, while it's not shown, it is clear he'd have to have it because of him having Super Saiyan 3.

By your logic, the lack of mention of it means Vegetto doesn't even have Super Saiyan 2. Goku and Vegeta both have Super Saiyan 2, thus Vegetto would fall under the rule you gave of "Fusion counterparts have not been shown to use a transformation that only one can use right off the bat."

The simple logic of it is that the reason he isn't put down for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 isn't because he doesn't have access to them, but just that he's not either shown in the form or it being absolutely clear through extrapolation that he'd have that form (as was the case with Gotenks' Super Saiyan 2). We only see him with Super Saiyan, and therefore it's the only one he's listed under.

We know that fusions are capable of using techniques only a single individual of the two actually knows (Vegetto having Goku's teleportation), so there's no reason that this can't extend to transformations as well.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:50 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:They mention Gotenks being able to access Super Saiyan 2 because he has Super Saiyan 3, and as far as we know, it's not possible to skip transformations as far as acquiring them is concerned (In order to reach Super Saiyan 3, you need to have reached Super Saiyan 2). So, while it's not shown, it is clear he'd have to have it because of him having Super Saiyan 3.

By your logic, the lack of mention of it means Vegetto doesn't even have Super Saiyan 2. Goku and Vegeta both have Super Saiyan 2, thus Vegetto would fall under the rule you gave of "Fusion counterparts have not been shown to use a transformation that only one can use right off the bat."

The simple logic of it is that the reason he isn't put down for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 isn't because he doesn't have access to them, but just that he's not either shown in the form or it being absolutely clear through extrapolation that he'd have that form (as was the case with Gotenks' Super Saiyan 2). We only see him with Super Saiyan, and therefore it's the only one he's listed under.

We know that fusions are capable of using techniques only a single individual of the two actually knows (Vegetto having Goku's teleportation), so there's no reason that this can't extend to transformations as well.
Techniques obviously work differently from transformations. Especially SSJ transformations.

Vegeta and Goku both have SSJ2, so logically yes he should be able to go SSJ2. When Vegetto transforms for the first time, he has electricity around his aura, a tip-off to SSJ2.

Kefla in the anime is able to go up to SSJ2, because both Caulifla & Kale could access SSJ2 (her controlled form shows electricity, plus Kale's controlled form is referred to as SSJ2 in Dokkan Battle). However, Kefla's form is in no way ever referred to as "berserker" nor was she shown to be able to go Kale-berserk even though she had the right mindset to.

By contrast, there is zero evidence or evidence by extrapolation that Z saga Vegetto is ever able to access SSJ3. It is at best fan headcanon, not implied by the series or databooks.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:00 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Techniques obviously work differently from transformations. Especially SSJ transformations.

Vegeta and Goku both have SSJ2, so logically yes he should be able to go SSJ2. When Vegetto transforms for the first time, he has electricity around his aura, a tip-off to SSJ2.

By contrast, there is zero evidence or evidence by extrapolation that Z saga Vegetto is ever able to access SSJ3. It is at best fan headcanon, not implied by the series or databooks.
Why? Why do they obviously work differently? There's nothing said, shown, or hinted to indicate that transformations work any differently than techniques as far as what a fused being has access to or what they can use, so explain why it'd be different

You are using the databooks as the end all to determine whether or not Vegetto should have Super Saiyan 3, but if you're going to go by the databooks, then he cannot even use Super Saiyan 2, as he is only mentioned to be able to go to regular Super Saiyan, and he doesn't have 2 in his repertoire according to Daizenshuu 7. So you can't have it both ways. His sparks aren't a nod to Super Saiyan 2 as he didn't transform to 2 (his hair didn't change, after all), so there's nothing in the story or the guide books saying that he could transform to 2. If you logically believe he can though despite no evidence supporting that he can, then why is it unreasonable for the same to be possible for 3?

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:33 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
Techniques obviously work differently from transformations. Especially SSJ transformations.

Vegeta and Goku both have SSJ2, so logically yes he should be able to go SSJ2. When Vegetto transforms for the first time, he has electricity around his aura, a tip-off to SSJ2.

By contrast, there is zero evidence or evidence by extrapolation that Z saga Vegetto is ever able to access SSJ3. It is at best fan headcanon, not implied by the series or databooks.
Why? Why do they obviously work differently? There's nothing said, shown, or hinted to indicate that transformations work any differently than techniques as far as what a fused being has access to or what they can use, so explain why it'd be different

You are using the databooks as the end all to determine whether or not Vegetto should have Super Saiyan 3, but if you're going to go by the databooks, then he cannot even use Super Saiyan 2, as he is only mentioned to be able to go to regular Super Saiyan, and he doesn't have 2 in his repertoire according to Daizenshuu 7. So you can't have it both ways. His sparks aren't a nod to Super Saiyan 2 as he didn't transform to 2 (his hair didn't change, after all), so there's nothing in the story or the guide books saying that he could transform to 2. If you logically believe he can though despite no evidence supporting that he can, then why is it unreasonable for the same to be possible for 3?
What do you mean no evidence of SSJ2 Vegetto?

We've seen SSJ4 Gogeta because both fusees had SSJ4.

We've seen SSB Vegetto because both fusees had SSB.

We've seen SSJ2 Kefla because both fusees had SSJ2.

Logically, SSJ2 Vegetto then was also possible.

That is the logic by the series. I shouldn't say that the guidebooks are the end all be all, but SSJ3 Vegetto is not supported by anything, both series-wise & guidebook-wise.

A transformation is a biological change, a technique isn't. Likewise, it's not good to assume Goku-Satan fusion could go SSJ just because one of them could.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:08 pm

Rakurai wrote: What do you mean no evidence of SSJ2 Vegetto?

We've seen SSJ4 Gogeta because both fusees had SSJ4.

We've seen SSB Vegetto because both fusees had SSB.

We've seen SSJ2 Kefla because both fusees had SSJ2.

Logically, SSJ2 Vegetto then was also possible.

That is the logic by the series. I shouldn't say that the guidebooks are the end all be all, but SSJ3 Vegetto is not supported by anything, both series-wise & guidebook-wise.

A transformation is a biological change, a technique isn't. Likewise, it's not good to assume Goku-Satan fusion could go SSJ just because one of them could.
If you're going to use Kafla, then that supports Vegetto having Super Saiyan 3 during the Buu arc. Kale's forms are not normal Super Saiyan forms, and there's no notion that her controlled berserker state is Super Saiyan 2. All her forms are unique to her, yet Kafla was still able to transform into normal Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 because of what Caulifla brought to the mix. Therefore, Vegetto would also be able to for the same reason.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:40 pm

Darkprince410 wrote: If you're going to use Kafla, then that supports Vegetto having Super Saiyan 3 during the Buu arc. Kale's forms are not normal Super Saiyan forms, and there's no notion that her controlled berserker state is Super Saiyan 2. All her forms are unique to her, yet Kafla was still able to transform into normal Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 because of what Caulifla brought to the mix. Therefore, Vegetto would also be able to for the same reason.
Kale's SSJ form:

Image

Kale's SSJ2 form:

Image

Image

I am talking about classification. Kale's form in the anime are classified as SSJ & SSJ2. Then we have her exclusive Berserker form, which Kefla has not been able to shown to do.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 am

Rakurai wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote: If you're going to use Kafla, then that supports Vegetto having Super Saiyan 3 during the Buu arc. Kale's forms are not normal Super Saiyan forms, and there's no notion that her controlled berserker state is Super Saiyan 2. All her forms are unique to her, yet Kafla was still able to transform into normal Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 because of what Caulifla brought to the mix. Therefore, Vegetto would also be able to for the same reason.

I am talking about classification. Kale's form in the anime are classified as SSJ & SSJ2. Then we have her exclusive Berserker form, which Kefla has not been able to shown to do.
Officially though, they're all just her Berserker form and then controlled versions of her Berserker form. They're not actually Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, but her own unique line.

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