Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

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Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:57 am

Hello everyone! As many of us know, the phrase "Saiyan Beyond God" elicits controversy and annoyance out of anyone who reads it.

This was, at its core, a production mistake. Goku and Vegeta were originally going to have just Base and SSBlue; then they were given Base, Yellow-haired forms again, and SSBlue. However, confusion arose among the fans as to whether or not Goku and Vegeta had a Black-haired Base form weaker than their SS1 forms AND a Black-haired Base form above all their Yellow-haired forms but below the Blue form.

Things changed again. Now Goku and Vegeta have Base, the Yellow-haired forms, the Red-haired form, and the Blue-haired form. But where did the strong second base go? It was assumed by 99% of the community that it was retconned into non-existence. I was part of the 99% and just accepted this.

Recently, I saw a drawing by Masaki Sato of his interpretation of an Ultimate Goku form, based on Ultimate Gohan -- it looks just like Base Goku. This drawing coupled with DBSuper acting like Ultimate is a transformation gave me an idea:

In my own world, and my own headcanon, Goku and Vegeta were using the Ultimate transformation during these moments of going "Saiyan Beyond God." So during the fight with Frieza, Copy-Vegeta, Monaka-Beerus, and others, Goku and Vegeta were tapping into the Ultimate form. This makes some sense because the strength of the Saiyan jumps by a large quantity when accessing Ultimate e.g. Gohan's cases. Ultimate also would hypothetically not change the look for Goku and Vegeta, which explains people thinking it were a second base. Their ki can also be felt in this strong second base form, and ki is felt normally when a Saiyan is in Ultimate.

So ... in my own headcanon world, in order to create a holistic explanation of the 131 episodes of DBSuper without resorting to an out-of-universe retcon, Goku and Vegeta have access to Base, SS1, SS2, SS3 (not Vegeta), Ultimate, SSG, SSBlue, SSBlue KK/SSBE. We know that Ultimate can be unlocked by Old Kai, but in this, I'm assuming it can be done by any God or Angel. Perhaps Whis gave them assistance in this.

Thank you all for considering this headcanon idea. I am not trying to push this as a fact or force the theory on anyone; however, comments and responses are welcome. :)

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:33 am

It's a nice thought. However, my head canon is slightly different. In the RoF movie, anime, and even the spin-off manga - all of them had one thing in common which was that Goku and Vegeta are training with Whis in their base. Whis used his staff to create a separate dimension similar to the Room of Spirit and Time where it's difficult to breathe and even move due to the atmosphere. By calming their own ki, Goku and Vegeta were able to move and this is how they were in fact able to learn god ki. This is how Vegeta was able to learn SSB without having to go through a ritual. Hence, Goku and Vegeta were able to utilize god ki even in their base.

The confusion occurs when events like Base Goku fighting Beerus in a Monaka costume or when SSJ Goku fights Beerus in space. The manga was the only version in which Goku did not fight Beerus as an SSJ in space. In addition, the anime did not show SSG as an independent transformation until the ToP. Since there is no defined canon, there's also no defined fillers, things like Goku vs Beerus in a costume are considered part of the main continuity. Things like the Potafu arc or Yamcha playing baseball, etc. should be fillers but are not considered to be by several people. Now, in the movie, we have SSG Vegeta. The rationale can always be that both Goku and Vegeta had SSG but chose not to use them as they are weaker forms. However, when Goku fought Dyspo, he used SSG to move and SSB to attack. Doing this, he could use the full power of SSB in short bursts just for offense. Whis commented that this was a smart idea in the anime. This is also the exact explanation given in the manga but all the way back during the Hit arc as Goku used SSG then SSB instead of Kaioken. Now, fast forward to the movie, there's no Kaioken Blue at all. What does this mean? There's really only one logical conclusion and that's the Saiyan Beyond God was retconned in the anime. In the manga, it was not.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:17 pm

There's really no reason to think that "Saiyan Beyond God" exists or that there's anything other than just normal power boosts in DBS. The only reason people thought this was the case was because of the RoF movie and the corresponding promotional material. The actual DBS anime never gives us any indication that they have two bases, or that they have a Base that functions any differently than it ever has.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Tectorman » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:37 am

PFM18 wrote:There's really no reason to think that "Saiyan Beyond God" exists or that there's anything other than just normal power boosts in DBS. The only reason people thought this was the case was because of the RoF movie and the corresponding promotional material. The actual DBS anime never gives us any indication that they have two bases, or that they have a Base that functions any differently than it ever has.
Not how I remember it.

When the BoG movie came out, the prevailing impression was that Goku went from "Base-SSJ-SSJ2-SSJ3" to "Really, really, really, really powerful Base (not yet given the moniker "Saiyan Beyond God" but nevertheless a Base as strong as a significant portion of SSJG's power)-Really, really, really, really powerful SSJ-SSJ2 & SSJ3 (still technically there but providing so little benefit compared to their drawbacks as to be pointless)-SSJG (maybe; it was supposed to only be attainable via the ritual but he went back to that form at the very end of the fight when he negated Beerus's last energy blast). THIS is where the notion of a Base gaining a power boost vastly beyond anything before came from, though it was never thought of to have God Ki's undetectability feature.

Then, RoF the movie came out and the prevailing understanding was that Goku and Vegeta had "Really, really, really, really powerful Base (the moniker "Saiyan Beyond God" may have originated here, but the state of power itself is just a continuation of what BoG had already shown us)-SSJ, SSJ2, & (in Goku's case) SSJ3 (presumably still there, just no longer useful)-SSJG (still iffy and subject to the same "maybe" as was at the end of BoG)-SSGSS".

Then the anime starts and mostly keeps to the script at the beginning (Goku never uses SSJG one last time, and the only time we see him demonstrate significantly improved power in Base is that last punch to negate Beerus's last energy blast). Then the U6 tournament shows up and the lower forms show up again. Vegeta demonstrates a clear difference in power between Base and SSJ and between SSJ and the newly re-named SSB.

On the other hand, the anime expressly tells us that Hit doesn't power up during his entire fight with Goku. He improves his Time Skip and modifies his ready stance, but doesn't actually increase his overall strength. He even acts like he's powering up just to turn around and reveal that it was all for show.

And against that opponent that the show firmly establishes to be a consistent barometer of power, Goku fights in Base and as a SSB and with SSBKKx10. The last time we saw something like this was when Goku fought Beerus as a SSJG AND in what looked like Base AND in what looked like SSJ, while not noticing a difference in performance until Beerus told him he hadn't been a SSJG for a while.

Ergo, SSB isn't all that different from Base. Except Vegeta just demonstrated a vast difference between SSB and Base to Cabba. THAT, the anime, is where the insistence that Saiyan Beyond God remained a thing as well as the Two-Base Theory come from. Because we're either saying there's one Base and two SSBs (the really powerful one Vegeta used and the barely different one Goku used) or we're saying there's one SSB and two Bases (one way below as per Vegeta's demonstration to Cabba and one up there with SSB as per Goku's fight with Hit). Later episodes would corroborate this: the Copy-Vegeta fight, Goku's fight with Monaka-Beerus, Goku Black versus SSJ2 Goku, SSJ Gohan sparring with SSJ Goku despite a later episode confirming that Gohan hasn't surpassed his Ultimate power the entire series. But even when they didn't, why would that imply any kind of retcon rather than just characterizing SbG as going from "there and being used" to "there but no longer being used"?
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:13 am

Tectorman wrote: On the other hand, the anime expressly tells us that Hit doesn't power up during his entire fight with Goku. He improves his Time Skip and modifies his ready stance, but doesn't actually increase his overall strength. He even acts like he's powering up just to turn around and reveal that it was all for show.

And against that opponent that the show firmly establishes to be a consistent barometer of power, Goku fights in Base and as a SSB and with SSBKKx10. The last time we saw something like this was when Goku fought Beerus as a SSJG AND in what looked like Base AND in what looked like SSJ, while not noticing a difference in performance until Beerus told him he hadn't been a SSJG for a while.

Ergo, SSB isn't all that different from Base. Except Vegeta just demonstrated a vast difference between SSB and Base to Cabba. THAT, the anime, is where the insistence that Saiyan Beyond God remained a thing as well as the Two-Base Theory come from. Because we're either saying there's one Base and two SSBs (the really powerful one Vegeta used and the barely different one Goku used) or we're saying there's one SSB and two Bases (one way below as per Vegeta's demonstration to Cabba and one up there with SSB as per Goku's fight with Hit). Later episodes would corroborate this: the Copy-Vegeta fight, Goku's fight with Monaka-Beerus, Goku Black versus SSJ2 Goku, SSJ Gohan sparring with SSJ Goku despite a later episode confirming that Gohan hasn't surpassed his Ultimate power the entire series. But even when they didn't, why would that imply any kind of retcon rather than just characterizing SbG as going from "there and being used" to "there but no longer being used"?
I agree with everything you said. I introduced someone to DBS who had only seen DB and DBZ. This person had a lot of trouble following the power scaling of Goku and Vegeta. It really does feel like SS1 and Base power vacillate between super weak to fairly strong. We don't have any confirmation that there were two different versions of Base/SS1. That was part of the reason why I proposed Ultimate form in my headcanon.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:22 pm

Hey, Chief! Can you link me to this Ultimate Goku picture done by Sato? That'd be very much appreciative. :thumbup:
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:41 am

I think it's this drawing here:
Well, I have my own headcanon too:

1 - First we have, off course, Super Saiyan God.
2 - As we saw, in the middle of the fight Goku lost the transformation and reverted to an ordinary Super Saiyan. However, he apparently had the same strength from before ("I don't feel weaker"), and curiously didn't use SS2 or 3. My explanation: Goku wasn't just an ordinary Super Saiyan at that time, instead he unconsciously achieved a new SS form. I call this form Godly Super Saiyan, because the name "Chou Super Saiyan with godly ki without complete control" isn't really good :lol:.
3 - After the fight, Goku have this Godly Super Saiyan and also the Godly Base Form, which is the famous "superpowered base form". He's really powerful, but he needs to use Super Saiyan to access all the godly power from before, because he don't have full control yet. Also, that's why he can't use SS Blue.
4 - After some time, he and Vegeta trained with Whis. After the train, he not only have a much better control of his godly ki but also he don't need to use SS to access it. That's the form known as Saiyan Beyond God. And more, now he can access a even more powerful form, the Super Saiyan Blue.
5 - But the "Beyond God" is just a step, not the definitive form, so he continued to train and after some time he achieved again the SS God. However, the transformation isn't exactly the same as before: if you look carefully, you'll see that some details changed, like the clothes.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Tectorman » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:11 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:I agree with everything you said. I introduced someone to DBS who had only seen DB and DBZ. This person had a lot of trouble following the power scaling of Goku and Vegeta. It really does feel like SS1 and Base power vacillate between super weak to fairly strong. We don't have any confirmation that there were two different versions of Base/SS1. That was part of the reason why I proposed Ultimate form in my headcanon.
That makes a kind of sense. Ultimate doesn't come into being without the direct intervention of the Elder Kai (even though his ability to help someone achieve this state is partly due to his fusion with the witch from long ago), so they can plausibly be related. This also goes back to what Toriyama said way back when about Goku and Vegeta having just about reached the limits of their potential, prior to the god stuff. Ultimate (or SbG) unlocks their potential anew, just as it did Gohan.
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:23 pm

My personal take: It's apparent that they are utilizing two sources of ki. The first being readily available spiritual energy, the second being the energy taken from Godly Ki. They've been able to harness this power and make it their own. So when they need or want, they can tap into SSJ1, 2, and 3, but using Godly Ki transcends them to God and Blue. Then Goku can stack Kaioken on his blue form to create SSBKK. Vegeta was able to push his godly power to its limit with SSBE, and Ultra Instinct is a state of being as opposed to a transformation.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by manwolf » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:25 pm

I think that for some reason Goku and Vegeta can turn into a normal super saiyan god but the choose to fight in this form like a false super saiyan god. But after Rof they go back to normal super saiyan forms.

So in Rof they transform into a a super saiyan god and after that they transform into super saiyan turning into blue. But after Rof they turn first into super saiyans and after that they turn into super saiyan god turning into blue.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:24 pm

I think of Saiyan Beyond God, as a boost. After becoming a Super Saiyan god for the first time, the Saiyan will get a boost to their Base form's power due to the God Ki. As such, prior to BoG Vegeta and Goku had their regular Base forms, but now they have access to this Saiyan Beyond God. This is their new Base. All their forms now have some God Ki within them. Not enough for the others not to sense their power, but enough for gaining a power-up. Think of it like Toppo's Aura of God. The Saiyans can't switch between Base and Base with God Ki, but it is practically the same thing, considering that they are powerful enough to stand against 50% Final Freeza (who has done his fair share of training in the entire Super).
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by emperior » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:49 pm

My theory is that Goku and Vegeta can theoretically still access that same base form, but instead turn into SSG because, in-universe, it gives them a slight boost in speed because of less muscle mass or because is more efficient to transform than to continuously power up with God ki inside their bodies without transforming (basically the transformation is their body’s response to the continuous use of God ki). Also using SSG would bring the advantage of not being sensed by foes who can’t sense God ki, while the Saiyan beyond God state can supposedly be sensed by mortals.
Out of universe SSG would obviously be the visual clue that Goku and Vegeta are using their God power. Of course it would be confusing if they used a stronger base form (the two base theory is confusing) and so, after RoF, Toriyama and co. decided it would be best for Goku and Vegeta to use SSG to make things easier to understand.
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:39 am

emperior wrote:My theory is that Goku and Vegeta can theoretically still access that same base form, but instead turn into SSG because, in-universe, it gives them a slight boost in speed because of less muscle mass or because is more efficient to transform than to continuously power up with God ki inside their bodies without transforming (basically the transformation is their body’s response to the continuous use of God ki). Also using SSG would bring the advantage of not being sensed by foes who can’t sense God ki, while the Saiyan beyond God state can supposedly be sensed by mortals.
Out of universe SSG would obviously be the visual clue that Goku and Vegeta are using their God power. Of course it would be confusing if they used a stronger base form (the two base theory is confusing) and so, after RoF, Toriyama and co. decided it would be best for Goku and Vegeta to use SSG to make things easier to understand.
Well Saiyan Beyond God wasn't a thing in the RoF arc either. Everyone can sense Goku when he is fighting Freeza, and then when he went SSB they explicitly comment about how they could no longer sense him. So it's clear in the scene that he wasnt using God Ki prior to turning SSB, so this doesn't really hold up.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by emperior » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:13 am

PFM18 wrote:
emperior wrote:My theory is that Goku and Vegeta can theoretically still access that same base form, but instead turn into SSG because, in-universe, it gives them a slight boost in speed because of less muscle mass or because is more efficient to transform than to continuously power up with God ki inside their bodies without transforming (basically the transformation is their body’s response to the continuous use of God ki). Also using SSG would bring the advantage of not being sensed by foes who can’t sense God ki, while the Saiyan beyond God state can supposedly be sensed by mortals.
Out of universe SSG would obviously be the visual clue that Goku and Vegeta are using their God power. Of course it would be confusing if they used a stronger base form (the two base theory is confusing) and so, after RoF, Toriyama and co. decided it would be best for Goku and Vegeta to use SSG to make things easier to understand.
Well Saiyan Beyond God wasn't a thing in the RoF arc either. Everyone can sense Goku when he is fighting Freeza, and then when he went SSB they explicitly comment about how they could no longer sense him. So it's clear in the scene that he wasnt using God Ki prior to turning SSB, so this doesn't really hold up.
Yeah basically my head canon is that for whatever reason that state Goku uses in RoF doesn’t alter his ki, and it is the full transformation to SSG only (or to Blue) that makes his ki fully God ki.
Incidentally I would say that, maybe, the last time Goku used that Saiyan beyond God state was against Hit (in the anime) and later on he figured out how to bring out the full SSG power, which would probably be easier to control and maybe even grant a minimal power boost?
Or maybe Goku and Vegeta actually fully figured out how to use SSG instead of the Saiyan Beyond God state in their 3 years training in the ROSAT (which amounted to basically nothing at all).

This is just my head canon of course, so surely it may not really hold up with what the serie has shown.
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Tectorman » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:37 pm

PFM18 wrote:
emperior wrote:My theory is that Goku and Vegeta can theoretically still access that same base form, but instead turn into SSG because, in-universe, it gives them a slight boost in speed because of less muscle mass or because is more efficient to transform than to continuously power up with God ki inside their bodies without transforming (basically the transformation is their body’s response to the continuous use of God ki). Also using SSG would bring the advantage of not being sensed by foes who can’t sense God ki, while the Saiyan beyond God state can supposedly be sensed by mortals.
Out of universe SSG would obviously be the visual clue that Goku and Vegeta are using their God power. Of course it would be confusing if they used a stronger base form (the two base theory is confusing) and so, after RoF, Toriyama and co. decided it would be best for Goku and Vegeta to use SSG to make things easier to understand.
Well Saiyan Beyond God wasn't a thing in the RoF arc either. Everyone can sense Goku when he is fighting Freeza, and then when he went SSB they explicitly comment about how they could no longer sense him. So it's clear in the scene that he wasnt using God Ki prior to turning SSB, so this doesn't really hold up.
Again, that is only an issue as long as we're defining Saiyan Beyond God as a state that has both God Ki's power AND God Ki's undetectability feature. But we're not. Saiyan Beyond God is a state at the same general level of the Gods, just like the "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (or whatever name you'd prefer) that Goku used against Beerus at the end of BoG. And that form was explicitly sense-able by non-Gods, despite being as powerful as SSJG. I don't know why it's so inconceivable that Saiyan Beyond God could exist WITHOUT the "undetectability by non-Gods" feature, especially when we've already seen precisely that in a similar form.
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Dagon » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:Hello everyone! As many of us know, the phrase "Saiyan Beyond God" elicits controversy and annoyance out of anyone who reads it.
Things changed again. Now Goku and Vegeta have Base, the Yellow-haired forms, the Red-haired form, and the Blue-haired form. But where did the strong second base go? It was assumed by 99% of the community that it was retconned into non-existence. I was part of the 99% and just accepted this.
More like half. The half that misunderstood unintentionally confusion promotional material. If you look at the movie and series in a vacuum with no promotional material to bog up your mind, it becomes clear.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is not a form. It's just Goku and Vegeta. They have surpassed the original ritual-SSJG in base form. I.E. They are "Saiyans beyond god." They are saiyans that have gone beyond SSJG. Then when they use god ki(post-ritual SSJG) with SSJ, they become SSJB. That's it. That's all it is. That's all it ever has been. It's just that the descriptions given by Toei can be confusing because people in the DB community focus too much on forms and whatnot.

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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by emperior » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:03 am

I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, Saiyan Beyond God is a state where Goku and Vegeta still hadn’t learned how to not leak their ki (hence why they could be sensed) and that later on they fully grasp how to more efficiently control their godly ki, thus achieving SSG (which is, basically, the mastered form of their SbG state).
Can this make sense?
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by Tectorman » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:58 pm

Dagon wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:Hello everyone! As many of us know, the phrase "Saiyan Beyond God" elicits controversy and annoyance out of anyone who reads it.
Things changed again. Now Goku and Vegeta have Base, the Yellow-haired forms, the Red-haired form, and the Blue-haired form. But where did the strong second base go? It was assumed by 99% of the community that it was retconned into non-existence. I was part of the 99% and just accepted this.
More like half. The half that misunderstood unintentionally confusion promotional material. If you look at the movie and series in a vacuum with no promotional material to bog up your mind, it becomes clear.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is not a form. It's just Goku and Vegeta. They have surpassed the original ritual-SSJG in base form. I.E. They are "Saiyans beyond god." They are saiyans that have gone beyond SSJG. Then when they use god ki(post-ritual SSJG) with SSJ, they become SSJB. That's it. That's all it is. That's all it ever has been. It's just that the descriptions given by Toei can be confusing because people in the DB community focus too much on forms and whatnot.
But isn't what I've bolded above evidence in support of a Saiyan Beyond God form/state/transformation/ability/pick-a-name?

They can use God-ki (post-ritual SSJG) with SSJ and become SSB. As is obvious, they can also NOT use God-ki with SSJ, becoming the regular SSJ that we still see. And of course, they can NOT use God-ki and not be a SSJ.

So why is "use God-ki WITHOUT SSJ" (whatever we want to refer to this as) so objectionable, especially when it's exactly what BoG showed us down in that cave, anyway?
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:35 pm

Tectorman wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
emperior wrote:My theory is that Goku and Vegeta can theoretically still access that same base form, but instead turn into SSG because, in-universe, it gives them a slight boost in speed because of less muscle mass or because is more efficient to transform than to continuously power up with God ki inside their bodies without transforming (basically the transformation is their body’s response to the continuous use of God ki). Also using SSG would bring the advantage of not being sensed by foes who can’t sense God ki, while the Saiyan beyond God state can supposedly be sensed by mortals.
Out of universe SSG would obviously be the visual clue that Goku and Vegeta are using their God power. Of course it would be confusing if they used a stronger base form (the two base theory is confusing) and so, after RoF, Toriyama and co. decided it would be best for Goku and Vegeta to use SSG to make things easier to understand.
Well Saiyan Beyond God wasn't a thing in the RoF arc either. Everyone can sense Goku when he is fighting Freeza, and then when he went SSB they explicitly comment about how they could no longer sense him. So it's clear in the scene that he wasnt using God Ki prior to turning SSB, so this doesn't really hold up.
Again, that is only an issue as long as we're defining Saiyan Beyond God as a state that has both God Ki's power AND God Ki's undetectability feature. But we're not. Saiyan Beyond God is a state at the same general level of the Gods, just like the "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (or whatever name you'd prefer) that Goku used against Beerus at the end of BoG. And that form was explicitly sense-able by non-Gods, despite being as powerful as SSJG. I don't know why it's so inconceivable that Saiyan Beyond God could exist WITHOUT the "undetectability by non-Gods" feature, especially when we've already seen precisely that in a similar form.
You keep lumping Saiyan Beyond God and what we saw with Goku against Beerus, together. They are completely different and not especially related. Saiyan Beyond God was achieved by training with Whis, and in the movie continuity, is able to use God Ki in their Base form. It is using "Poiwer of a God/God-like power without changing form", obviously referring to God Ki. Then in the actual movie, there's no mention that they were no longer able to sense Goku, because it was apparent that they were NEVER able to sense Goku. They never sensed him during the entire movie. (Although they didn't explicitly state that they couldn't.) There isn't some God Ki that is undetectable and some that is just really strong or something. You are either using God Ki, or you aren't. In the actual Super anime, they can sense him in Base, and then when he starts using SSB, they can no longer sense him. It is very clear. There isn't some strange distinction where some God Ki is undetectable and some isn't. Goku adapted to, by experiencing, the Super Saiyan God power, but was still a normal Super Saiyan with no God Ki. He had no God Ki, so he could still be sensed. It is not at all similar to Saiyan Beyond God.
emperior wrote:I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, Saiyan Beyond God is a state where Goku and Vegeta still hadn’t learned how to not leak their ki (hence why they could be sensed) and that later on they fully grasp how to more efficiently control their godly ki, thus achieving SSG (which is, basically, the mastered form of their SbG state).
Can this make sense?
I guess it's possible, but this was never hinted at, or implied at any point.

I really think it's just as simple as Goku got a lot stronger after he adapted to/absorbed the power from SSG. That's really it. He got strong enough, that his SSJ form was as strong as SSG,(and so by extension his Base would be SSG/50.)

ankokudaishogun
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Re: Late 2018 Headcanon Take on Saiyan Beyond God

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:45 pm

emperior wrote:I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, Saiyan Beyond God is a state where Goku and Vegeta still hadn’t learned how to not leak their ki (hence why they could be sensed) and that later on they fully grasp how to more efficiently control their godly ki, thus achieving SSG (which is, basically, the mastered form of their SbG state).
Can this make sense?
Yeah, it's basically the "Two Bases" hypothesis: SbG as incomplete SSG.
It causes a number of issues, though.

In the end, the only real question is: was U6 Tournament Base Cabba as strong as RoF Final Form Freeza?

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