Inconsistencies within the manga

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PFM18
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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by PFM18 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:18 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:These are the big ones that always pop in my mind the first:

- The entire existence of Kid Boo is nonsensical. Fat Boo separates the evil within him leading with Evil Grey Skinny Boo. Then Evil Grey Skinny Boo turns Fat Boo into chocolate, eats him, absorbs him and turns into Super Boo. Then when Fat Boo is torn apart from Super Boo on the inside, instead of turning into Evil Grey Skinny Boo, he turns into Kid Boo for some inexplicable reason. It's a plot hole you could drive a double decker bus though.

- Vegetto retaining his conscious when he's turned into candy, despite the fact nobody else in the arc was able to do this, and there's never an explanation as to why Vegetto was able to do this.

- Cell regenerating after blowing himself up because the core inside his head remained intact... despite the fact that Goku destroyed the top half of his body prior to that moment, meaning he should no core allowing himself to regenerate in the first place.

- In the Majin Boo arc, when the cast use the Dragon Balls to resurrect all the people who have been killed (expect for the bad people), Goku arrives on the scene to tell the Z-Fighters not the waste the final wish as they may need it as a backup in case shit goes south with Goten and Trunks fighting Majin Boo. So Dende tells Goku to send Shenlong away, who will only rest for four months instead of a year, at the end of which they can wake him up for the other two of three wishes... which makes no fucking sense. Because back in the Cell arc, when Dende use his Namekian Magic to restore and power up Shenlong wish granting capabilities and increases Shelong capabilities to grant three wishes in one year, there's a catch in the fact that if you want a mass revival wish, you automatically lose one wish on top of that one, meaning you only have two wishes to work with instead of three initially. But for whatever reason, in Majin Boo arc, Shenlong can still grant two more wishes, despite the fact the mass revival wish means he shouldn't be able to.

Also:

Goku: "SSJ3 wouldn't have been enough to defeat Majin Boo."

*several dozen chapters later*

Goku: "SSJ3 could have been enough to defeat Majin Boo."
Great post as usual. Goes to show Super isn't the first to be contradictory at times.
The difference, of course, being that the original series’ most glaring inconsistencies come late into its run and are mostly harmless whereas Super’s inconsistencies are constant and far more damning.
Except, no, not at all, because there really isn't anything especially "damning" within Super's run, and there's plenty of inconsistencies and issues within the middle portions of the original series, not just "late into it's run."

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Tsufuru » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:21 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
DNA wrote:Cell announcing the Cell Game at May 17.
Most of us also know that the Cell Game was actually on May 26, I don't know the reason for the change though.
Toriyama forgot which date the Androids attacked or he is worse at counting than early DB Goku or Chaozu.
Take your pick, because what really happened has most likely been lost to time.
its nothing new that toriyama is messing up numbers.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:53 pm

I've done a list with inconsistences in the Boo Arc and posted in another forum a while ago. Here it goes:
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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm

Two more major inconsistencies popped into my mind:

- After the conclusion of the Red Ribbon Army arc, Goku begins looking for the Dragon Balls after eight months... despite the fact it takes a year for the Dragon Balls to be recharged and not be stone.

- The rules of death and resurrection are majorly twisted in the conclusion of the Freeza arc. Vegeta suggests that Gohan and Bulma use the Namekian Dragon Balls to transport the souls of Krillin and Goku to Earth before they bring them back to life. That makes no sense and completely goes against how death and resurrection work in the Dragon Ball universe. When someone normally dies in Dragon Ball, their soul is transported to the afterlife and their body basically becomes a shell. And if they are brought back to life, the soul travels back to where the body was from when they died or where the remains of their body are. So even if they were to transport the souls of Goku and Krillin to Earth, the wish to bring them back to life would still result in their souls travelling to Namek because that was where their bodies and other remains are when they died. And in that case, they would still die in space after making that wish, regardless of whether their souls would be transported to Earth or not. So Krillin being brought back to life and having his body on Earth makes no sense. It shouldn’t have happened that way. He should have been brought back to life where Namek formally was. It’s a plot hole. And a big one as well. Or at the very least, a major continuity error.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Pantalones » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:17 pm

Another Z to Super inconsistency: The base Saiyans seem to be estimated less powerful than Freeza without Super Saiyans. Yet Vegeta agreed to participate in a tournament with Piccolo and 18. Some people want to act like it os just Vegeta showing off but that's nonsensical. There is no way he agrees to something that actually keeps him weaker than the others.
This isn't a "Z to Super inconsistency" because there was no way the base Saiyans were ever stronger than #18 or Piccolo in the first place.

We saw in the Cell Games that Piccolo wasn't that far behind Trunks and Vegeta (as Super Saiyans), and we know that the Saiyans didn't get massively stronger between the Cell and Buu sagas -- because SSj2 Kid Gohan is still the benchmark everyone's compared to seven years after the Cell Games. SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta are ahead of that Gohan but not by a huge amount, Dabura (comparable to some form of Cell) is almost able to fight evenly with 16-year-old Gohan who's said to be a good bit weaker than he'd been as a kid, and so on.

Literally the only way to have the Buu saga base Saiyans stronger than characters like the Androids and Piccolo would be to assume that the multiplier for Super Saiyan is no longer anywhere near 50x after... some point midway through the Cell Saga. You'd have to have base Trunks and Vegeta more than half as strong as Piccolo during the Cell Games, and their Super Saiyan selves maybe twice their base power at best.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Rubens » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:38 am

I also remember early in the manga the training with Muten Roshi lasted for 8 months until the first tournament, and the RRA arc began right after that with Goku flying away to search for the 4 star dragon ball, despite the fact the dragon balls had been used shortly before that training period and Bulma stated they would remain dormant for a full year.
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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:54 am

Bulma grabbing Goku’s tail to just to take it off in the bath only seems to cause him mild pain and irritation compared to later when its establishes he loses all his power



DNA wrote:So there are some inconsistencies even within the manga, the two I know from the top of my head are Trunks saying that #19 and #20 are the artificial humans that rampaged in the future and Cell announcing the Cell Game at May 17.
?
Trunks never said the Artificial Humans who rampaged in the future were 19 and 20 just that their was two of them. The ambiguity actually made it easier for Toriyama to retcon things using his “going back changes the past” get out of jail free card.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Cetra » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:35 am

This isn't a "Z to Super inconsistency" because there was no way the base Saiyans were ever stronger than #18 or Piccolo in the first place.
This is nonsense - you would have to ignore the entire beginning of the Boo saga conversation with Vegeta by handwaving it away "uhuh ... he was just posing as always". Vegeta agreeing to that makes no sense. Especially when it comes to fairness. There is no fairness behind that when Piccolo and 18 are suddenly leagues about the Saiyans either. And there were enough people that casually thought the Saiyans at that point just also got stronger in their base because it is not unrealistic for this show. And I am not talking about your multipliers. Toriyama-san did not write his manga with a calculator next to him, so your argument falls flat.
MasenkoHA wrote: Trunks never said the Artificial Humans who rampaged in the future were 19 and 20 just that their was two of them. The ambiguity actually made it easier for Toriyama to retcon things using his “going back changes the past” get out of jail free card.
He literally mentioned 19 and 20.
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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:42 am

• One day passes in the present, one day passes in the future.

If that was the case, then Trunks should have come to the past (second time) from AGE 787 (as three years would have passed in the future as well) and he should have said that Cell came from AGE 791, not AGE 788. This also contradicts with the time Cell himself spoke about his time travelling.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:31 pm

Tavarano wrote:Goku was able to smell Bulma coming from a significant distance, but unable to recognize all the disguised fighters.
At the very least that's justified with Jack Chun, since Roshi was using perfume.
SupremeKai25 wrote:Was it ever explained in the manga how Future Zamasu was able to use the Time Ring even though he wasn't official promoted to the rank of Supreme Kai? In the anime, only Supreme Kais can use the Time Ring, that's why Gowasu had to promote Zamasu to Supreme Kai for a time when they visited the Babari in the future. I'm not sure if that rule also applies to the manga though.
When Gowasu gives the potara to Zamasu, he points out he's only making Zamasu temporarily become a Kaioshin, so it seems that being an official Kaioshin or not doesn't matter to use the time rings, pretty dumb "security system" to make time rings be easier to use than fusion lol.
Lord Beerus wrote:- The rules of death and resurrection are majorly twisted in the conclusion of the Freeza arc. Vegeta suggests that Gohan and Bulma use the Namekian Dragon Balls to transport the souls of Krillin and Goku to Earth before they bring them back to life. That makes no sense and completely goes against how death and resurrection work in the Dragon Ball universe. When someone normally dies in Dragon Ball, their soul is transported to the afterlife and their body basically becomes a shell. And if they are brought back to life, the soul travels back to where the body was from when they died or where the remains of their body are. So even if they were to transport the souls of Goku and Krillin to Earth, the wish to bring them back to life would still result in their souls travelling to Namek because that was where their bodies and other remains are when they died. And in that case, they would still die in space after making that wish, regardless of whether their souls would be transported to Earth or not. So Krillin being brought back to life and having his body on Earth makes no sense. It shouldn’t have happened that way. He should have been brought back to life where Namek formally was. It’s a plot hole. And a big one as well. Or at the very least, a major continuity error.
There's another plot hole in that, when Yemma is introduced, Goku wonders if aliens go be checked in by him, to which Kami replies that the dead of all worlds go there, so Kaio making that whole point of "Krillin's and Goku's souls are outside my jurisdiction" makes no sense, 'cause if the souls just go to Yemma's place, then Kami can just restore their bodies, like he did with Chiaotzu and then they can be resurrected in Other World just fine...
Pantalones wrote:We saw in the Cell Games that Piccolo wasn't that far behind Trunks and Vegeta (as Super Saiyans), and we know that the Saiyans didn't get massively stronger between the Cell and Buu sagas -- because SSj2 Kid Gohan is still the benchmark everyone's compared to seven years after the Cell Games. SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta are ahead of that Gohan but not by a huge amount, Dabura (comparable to some form of Cell) is almost able to fight evenly with 16-year-old Gohan who's said to be a good bit weaker than he'd been as a kid, and so on.
It's also worth mentioning that Gohan was weaker than usual when fighting Dabura too, since when Kibito heals him, he says Gohan is not at full power, though perhaps Toriyama forgot about that since neither Goku or Vegeta mention it during the Dabura fight.
MasenkoHA wrote:Trunks never said the Artificial Humans who rampaged in the future were 19 and 20 just that their was two of them. The ambiguity actually made it easier for Toriyama to retcon things using his “going back changes the past” get out of jail free card.
He said it was 19 and 20 in the manga:

https://i.imgur.com/sAsN48g.png

The narrator also says it's 19 and 20 before their attack in that city, the anime avoided this by not mentioning them, wonder if they did it because at the time, 17 and 18 already showed up in the manga, or if they did just to keep them more mysterious...

Anyways, I found an inconsistency in vanila DB, it's surprising I never saw mention of it:

https://i.imgur.com/VwGH4e8.png

So here Goku is willing to kill Piccolo since they "could" just resurrect Kami later with the dragon balls, then after Goku defeats Piccolo:

https://i.imgur.com/5Nq2biQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/hgwCgrQ.png

Goku just suddenly got the knowledge that if Kami dies then Shenlong is gone, and he talks like he knew about it all the time, not like he just remembered it, then this whole point of "if you kill one of them, both die, but you can resurrect just one with the dragon balls" goes to hell in Namek saga 'cause resurrecting just one brings both of them back.

When Raditz arrives, the reasons he says he came to Earth is just weird once Freeza shows up, since Raditz says he wants Goku to help him out to conquer some planet that was so tough they needed 4 saiyans for it, that would work fine if the saiyans are self employed, but then after we learn that they're just soldiers and there are people who heavily outclass Vegeta, it just sounds odd that Raditz would come to Earth to find Goku when Freeza could just send like, the Ginyu force to that planet... Only way to explain that is if they were gunning for the planet themselves, but that's odd, and just a headcanon.

Cell is pretty much the king of inconsistencies, when Trunks, Bulma and Gohan find his time machine, Trunks says that it arrived a year before he did, so Cell arrived around the time of saiyan saga or Namek saga, and when Kami talks about feeling Cell's presence, he also specificaly points out he felt Cell for 4 years, then after Cell and Piccolo's fight, Piccolo says he arrived 3 years before and Cell just pushed the button on the time machine... His power level is also inconsistent via dialogue since Piccolo at some point says he's far stronger than the androids, there's also the obvious one of him regenerating his upper half when the core that regenerates him is in his head.

Speaking of androids, Gero makes no sense, he willfully made himself be an absortion type when the infinite energy type is far superior, it can be understandable why he'd do that to 19 in case he feared betrayal, but he should at least have made himself be that type, maybe this was going somewhere since when 17 learns that 16 is a fully mechanical type he wonders why Gero decided to make cyborgs, but yeah, doubt it'd explain why Gero didn't make himself into the infinite energy type, why he made Cell to absorb 17 and 18 is weird too lol.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:31 pm

Pantalones wrote:
Another Z to Super inconsistency: The base Saiyans seem to be estimated less powerful than Freeza without Super Saiyans. Yet Vegeta agreed to participate in a tournament with Piccolo and 18. Some people want to act like it os just Vegeta showing off but that's nonsensical. There is no way he agrees to something that actually keeps him weaker than the others.
This isn't a "Z to Super inconsistency" because there was no way the base Saiyans were ever stronger than #18 or Piccolo in the first place.

We saw in the Cell Games that Piccolo wasn't that far behind Trunks and Vegeta (as Super Saiyans), and we know that the Saiyans didn't get massively stronger between the Cell and Buu sagas -- because SSj2 Kid Gohan is still the benchmark everyone's compared to seven years after the Cell Games. SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta are ahead of that Gohan but not by a huge amount, Dabura (comparable to some form of Cell) is almost able to fight evenly with 16-year-old Gohan who's said to be a good bit weaker than he'd been as a kid, and so on.

Literally the only way to have the Buu saga base Saiyans stronger than characters like the Androids and Piccolo would be to assume that the multiplier for Super Saiyan is no longer anywhere near 50x after... some point midway through the Cell Saga. You'd have to have base Trunks and Vegeta more than half as strong as Piccolo during the Cell Games, and their Super Saiyan selves maybe twice their base power at best.
Exactly. Well said.

For it to make sense for the Base Saiyans in the Buu arc to be stronger than Piccolo, then Piccolo would have to be treated as a complete joke for the SSJ Saiyans to be over 50x stronger than him, considering that they only made marginal gains over the 7 years and couldn't surpass Gohan without using an equivalent form.

.....But Piccolo isn't considered a joke in the Cell Games he was right around everybody else there especially going by the Cell Juniors performances.

This could be dismissed as Vegeta just being cocky, except Dabura and Babidi ALSO regard the Saiyans as superior and this is well before they had any idea that SSJ existed.

I mean, the Buu arc is shit across the board though.

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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by Cetra » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:33 am

This could be dismissed as Vegeta just being cocky, ...
No it could not be dismissed because nothing in the story actually says that and fans cannot decide that it can be dismissed just because they want Piccolo to be stronger or have the Saiyans agree to an incredible disadvantage that they have no reason to agree with just so two other guys have an advantage over them instead. There is virtually no reason for that scene to not be taken seriously. "I do not like how it does nor match up with the multiplier of another book" does not help as an argument. I don't even need your "except" clause. As said, if you think the man made his story with a calculator next to him then you have a complete misunderstanding of how little invested he in these things that only some fans care about, was. You cannot just act like a scene meant something it never indicated, especially not with characters like Vegeta.
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Re: Inconsistencies within the manga

Post by TobyS » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:11 am

You don't even have to think Vegeta is cocky. Just that he only wants to fight Goku in a fair fight.

He may get matched with Goku in the first round.

Cocky or not he'd obviously break the rule if Piccolo or 18 pushed him before his fight with Goku. He probably only “agreed” to shut everyone up and be brought along to have a chance at facing Goku.

That's not head canon we know what vegetas about.

It's more of a stretch for the multiplier to have shrunk arbitrarily then it is for Vegeta to be a manipulative prick.
And it must be the multiplier shrinking because if the SS2 Gohan benchmark thing.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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