How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Such as?
Matching Base Gohan during the recruitment arc, who is stronger than Lavender, who is stronger than Basil, who somewhat matched Fat Buu at the preliminaries, who is stronger than Super Perfect Cell.
That scene couldn't have been more clearly a skill-based one. Krillin used the Taioken to blind Gohan and then knocked him out, it had nothing to do with strength.
Krillin and Base Gohan were trading fist before Krillin got him with a Solar Flare, so it was clearly both a strength and skill based fight throughout.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:13 am

zarmack wrote: Basil is stated to be the youngest and weakest of the trio.
He is? Source please.

As for the question in the OP. All 3 of them working together could take down Namek Freeza IMO since all 3 surpassed base Goten and Trunks by the ToP arc. Roshi with his Mafuba solos Z since it almost sealed Frost.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:53 am

zarmack wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Matching Base Gohan during the recruitment arc, who is stronger than Lavender, who is stronger than Basil, who somewhat matched Fat Buu at the preliminaries, who is stronger than Super Perfect Cell.
That scene couldn't have been more clearly a skill-based one. Krillin used the Taioken to blind Gohan and then knocked him out, it had nothing to do with strength.
Krillin and Base Gohan were trading fist before Krillin got him with a Solar Flare, so it was clearly both a strength and skill based fight throughout.
You think Gohan was seriously using his real strength?
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:08 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
zarmack wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
That scene couldn't have been more clearly a skill-based one. Krillin used the Taioken to blind Gohan and then knocked him out, it had nothing to do with strength.
Krillin and Base Gohan were trading fist before Krillin got him with a Solar Flare, so it was clearly both a strength and skill based fight throughout.
You think Gohan was seriously using his real strength?
This is Base Gohan, not Ultimate Gohan. So its not that unbelievable.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:15 am

zarmack wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Krillin and Base Gohan were trading fist before Krillin got him with a Solar Flare, so it was clearly both a strength and skill based fight throughout.
You think Gohan was seriously using his real strength?
This is Base Gohan, not Ultimate Gohan. So its not that unbelievable.
I think we need to accept that jobbing is a thing in Super.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:03 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
You think Gohan was seriously using his real strength?
This is Base Gohan, not Ultimate Gohan. So its not that unbelievable.
I think we need to accept that jobbing is a thing in Super.
Jobbing is when a character loses to hype up an even stronger one.

Krillin vs Base Gohan isn't jobbing.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:02 am

zarmack wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
That scene couldn't have been more clearly a skill-based one. Krillin used the Taioken to blind Gohan and then knocked him out, it had nothing to do with strength.
Pretty much exactly what I was saying. If Gohan was seriously intending to kill Krillin what do you think would have happened?

Also I don't get the idea that Lavender is stronger than Basil... I always thought Lavender was the weakest of the trio and compensated for that with his poison.
Basil is stated to be the youngest and weakest of the trio.
Source? I don't recall that ever being stated

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:45 am

zarmack wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
zarmack wrote:
This is Base Gohan, not Ultimate Gohan. So its not that unbelievable.
I think we need to accept that jobbing is a thing in Super.
Jobbing is when a character loses to hype up an even stronger one.

Krillin vs Base Gohan isn't jobbing.
The purpose was to make Krillin look impressive and competent for the upcoming tournament. Hence they made Gohan take a dive.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi wouldn't make it past 100% Final Form Freeza on Namek.

Krillin got his ass kicked in a split second by Base Gohan the moment he decided to actually put some effort into fighting Krillin.

Tenshinhan got clowned by Roshi (who didn't even need to buff up to do so).

And Roshi himself got flattened like a pancake from single Kamehameha from Base Goku when he decided to end the fight.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:46 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi wouldn't make it past 100% Final Form Freeza on Namek.

Krillin got his ass kicked in a split second by Base Gohan the moment he decided to actually put some effort into fighting Krillin.

Tenshinhan got clowned by Roshi (who didn't even need to buff up to do so).

And Roshi himself got flattened like a pancake from single Kamehameha from Base Goku when he decided to end the fight.
This is pretty fair.

But at the same time, Roshi clowned Tenshinhan when he had that boost from the lady controlling him, if the ki aura being flared up when she took control wasn't indication enough, one of the writers explained it to be the case.

Frankly, I don't see any reason to put Roshi above Captain Ginyu on Namek, and probably much weaker than that. Tenshinhan's placement is dicey because he was able to at least do something to Semi-Perfect Cell for awhile, who obviously dwarfs Namek Freeza. That's more awful bad power-scaling than anything else, but it is worth considering.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:59 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi wouldn't make it past 100% Final Form Freeza on Namek.

Krillin got his ass kicked in a split second by Base Gohan the moment he decided to actually put some effort into fighting Krillin.

Tenshinhan got clowned by Roshi (who didn't even need to buff up to do so).

And Roshi himself got flattened like a pancake from single Kamehameha from Base Goku when he decided to end the fight.
Well base Gohan is around SS2 tier of the Boo arc and Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks...

Of course they couldn't do anything.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Rubens » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:52 am

While fighting head to head, I agree with the assessment that they wouldn't beat 100% final form Freeza from the Namek arc. But using their techniques? Maybe.

I'd like to point out the "current" trio would not fight directly, they would be constantly resorting to their techniques and tricks to figure out ways to defeat powerful enemies: the kienzan, mafuba, tayoken ("solar flare"), Roshi's paralyzing technique (I want to say bankokoubikurishou...?) are examples of strategies they could use. However I don't really see them being able to beat the likes of Majin Boo or Cell (and perhaps even the androids).

I think the point of that spar between Kururin and Gohan (and Goku) was a demonstration of that, the weak yet cunning and tricky fighter vs a much more powerful foe.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:19 pm

Compensational technique strategy over raw power would be more acceptable if there was proper attention to detail. Right now, we have arguments being fueled in part by the usage of a stun gun to incapacitate Goku and Vegeta. You can question Merus's reflexes and quickness if you want, but to say that a stun gun couldn't work on biological entities like Goku and Vegeta when it's supposed to impact your neuro-electrical impulses doesn't sound right, I think. Also, you would need to change the mentality of the characters. Having an optimised exploitation of techniques could put a serious damper on Toriyama's Goku pedestaling when a number of the techniques that the humans use operate outside of power level and could incapacitate someone incredibly strong if it manages to work.

Relating to the Krillin and Gohan sparring match, remember that Krillin was purposefully rousing his opponent to use all of his strength (base strength more specifically). I don't see why Gohan wouldn't oblige by that point since he's trying to understand his father's reasoning for including Krillin in the tournament. Krillin took two punches and was catapulted into the adjoining plateau where he started on. Thing is, when Gohan tried to follow up his punches with a kick, Krillin was able to recover and dodge. Someone that is terribly and utterly outclassed shouldn't be garnering that kind of response at all. If Krillin isn't as strong as Base Gohan then he's at least powerful enough to keep on his toes and hold his own for a bit, in my opinion.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Waluigiman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:09 pm

They might be able to defeat an untrained Frieza and Cell(that is if Tien or Krillin managed to surpass Perfect Cell with their training, its difficult to know how strong they are at this point.) Tien briefly gave Semi-perfect Cell a hard time so maybe he can now kill him at this point. Maybe that's why Tien was the one who eliminated that Cell-look alike.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:13 pm

It's been a long time since I last posted here.

Anyways, according to a DBS writer in an interview, Krillin, Tien and Roshi are all much weaker than SSJ Goten and Trunks (who hadn't trained at all since the Buu saga). Those two were struggling against the Cell Jrs. With that, we can be sure that the earthlings didn't surpass the Cell Jrs, much less Perfect Cell like some people are saying. However, with their techniques, they might go further.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:It's been a long time since I last posted here.

Anyways, according to a DBS writer in an interview, Krillin, Tien and Roshi are all much weaker than SSJ Goten and Trunks (who hadn't trained at all since the Buu saga). Those two were struggling against the Cell Jrs. With that, we can be sure that the earthlings didn't surpass the Cell Jrs, much less Perfect Cell like some people are saying. However, with their techniques, they might go further.
Source? When/where did a writer say this?

And the SSJ kids struggling against the Cell Juniors was manga-only.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 pm

PFM18 wrote: Source? When/where did a writer say this?

And the SSJ kids struggling against the Cell Juniors was manga-only.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... vival-arc/
Here's the source, and the exact quote is this:

"But personally I intended on putting more effort into the warriors like the Turtle Hermit or Kuririn, the ones who at first made you ask “why’d they bring these guys along?” Because Toriyama-sensei selected them. If he was just looking for battle power, then he would have only brought along people who could go Super Saiyan, like Goten or Trunks."

This does imply that Roshi and Krillin (as well as Tien) are inferior to Goten and Trunks in their SSJ forms when it comes to strength. And even if Goten and Trunks' fight against the Cell Jr is manga only, there's no way that the kids are stronger than Perfect Cell if that wasn't the case back in the Buu arc.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:43 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Source? When/where did a writer say this?

And the SSJ kids struggling against the Cell Juniors was manga-only.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... vival-arc/
Here's the source, and the exact quote is this:

"But personally I intended on putting more effort into the warriors like the Turtle Hermit or Kuririn, the ones who at first made you ask “why’d they bring these guys along?” Because Toriyama-sensei selected them. If he was just looking for battle power, then he would have only brought along people who could go Super Saiyan, like Goten or Trunks."

This does imply that Roshi and Krillin (as well as Tien) are inferior to Goten and Trunks in their SSJ forms when it comes to strength. And even if Goten and Trunks' fight against the Cell Jr is manga only, there's no way that the kids are stronger than Perfect Cell if that wasn't the case back in the Buu arc.
Oh, okay cool. Strange wording though, he makes it sound like having battle power is just associated with being able to go Super Saiyan. As if you can't have a high battle power without being able to go SSJ.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:50 pm

PFM18 wrote: Oh, okay cool. Strange wording though, he makes it sound like having battle power is just associated with being able to go Super Saiyan. As if you can't have a high battle power without being able to go SSJ.
I think it probably means that of all the fighters left out of the tournament (like the kids, Yamcha, Chiaotzu, etc), Goten and Trunks are the strongest of them because they can transform into SSJ. It also probably means a comparison between Krillin and Roshi with Goten and Trunks.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by BWri » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:35 am

Kataphrut wrote:No, because the ToP was a tournament where they just had to knock people off. None of their strategies would have amounted to much against unkillable regenerating monsters like Cell and Buu.

That being said, it really shouldn't have taken until Future Zamasu for them to go "Hey, maybe this power to seal enemies up forever in a confined space would come in handy for a lot of these bad guys." Instead of wasting time on fusion, that's what they should have been doing to deal with Buu. In fact, I think one of the Supersonic Warriors games literally has Piccolo do that.
Near-sighted writing like many of Dragon Ball's woes. With smart writing, Tien would be an underdog beast who learned Kaioken and mastered Mafuba to deal with evil regenerating threats. Smarter writing would give all the characters agency so that they can figure a way to contribute to the list of ever growing threats, but as is they are just along for the ride.
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