How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by BWri » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:57 am

theherodjl wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:Anything past 3rd form frieza is a huge stretch.
I don't know, Krillin was actually pushing Base Gohan which is a level at least 1/3rd of 4th Form Freeza's full power, and Roshi possessed by Yurin's sorcery traded some blows with a half-serious Base Godku. I'd say they're beyond 3rd Form Freeza by a fair amount.
I think base Gohan would have been more than a match for Final Namek Frieza. This is a Gohan that had been retraining with Piccolo since RoF, even heavily sparring with him in Base. That same Piccolo is light years ahead of Namek Frieza. Face it. Everyone in Super in much much stronger than we could've ever imagined them.

Krillin spars against AN ANDROID. His showings in the ToP, basically saving her and embarrassing Gohan put him close enough to her level that he's a heavy hitter in every arc but Buu. The kicker here is if #18 got that much stronger which is implied in quite a few scenes. So as crazy as it is, everyone aside from maybe Tien and Yamcha :problem: are likely above Namek arc SSJ tier.

I see them stomping Frieza and Androids 19 and 20 with teamwork but getting stuck at #16, #17, and #18 mainly due to #16. If Tien had powered up like Roshi and Krillin, that'd get them to Perfect Cell.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:33 am

An exhausted Roshi pushed Frost briefly. And when charmed he was giving Tenshinhan and base Goku those hands. It is ridiculous, but I just assume his training to use his Max form as a battle transformation and not just for the Kamehameha has really pushed his limits. But, that aside, he successfully sealed Blue Vegeta. Ok, it wasn't a success in the sense that he wasn't the target. But, in terms of power...he def should be able to seal a Cell Games era PC, or any form of Buu we have seen.

Kuririn's been training with his wife long enough, I think he should at least last longer in the early Cell arc then he did.

Ten...the disrespect...he seems to have lost power, despite still training and becoming a sensei.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by SSJgogeto » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:09 am

Well, IMO Goku's base form from Super is more or less the same from Buu saga, so I don't think the trio could make any difference in terms of power.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:13 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:Well, IMO Goku's base form from Super is more or less the same from Buu saga, so I don't think the trio could make any difference in terms of power.
The show is wildly inconsistent with this stuff, but Goku fires up an aura that looked a lot to me like his "Saiyan Beyond God" state. Even if not, I would in no way say base Goku in the ToP arc was = to Buu Saga base. He's done a huge amount of training and been in numerous tough fights. And literally recovered from death in the anime (the Hit assassination), which would improve his overall power just based on his species biology. Tho I cant remember when that ep happened lol...but still, the rest stands.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:41 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:Well, IMO Goku's base form from Super is more or less the same from Buu saga, so I don't think the trio could make any difference in terms of power.
Why do you say that?
Onikage725 wrote:An exhausted Roshi pushed Frost briefly.
extremely briefly, right around the same time, expressed concern for killing Roshi and being disqualifiied. So it really doesn't' say anything.
And when charmed he was giving Tenshinhan and base Goku those hands.
Which also means nothing, because he was being amped by the lady that was controlling him. That's just the way that usually works in DB, and when she took hold of him, his ki aura flared up, which usually indicates a ki increase, and I believe a writer even commented on it making him stronger. It's impossible to say by how much it increased his power, but I still don't see any reason to believe he still isn't weaker than Tenshinhan.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:20 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:Well, IMO Goku's base form from Super is more or less the same from Buu saga, so I don't think the trio could make any difference in terms of power.
There is absolutely no way that this is true in either the anime nor manga. Even if you ignore the whole "absorbed SSG in base" thing, assuming that Goku & Vegeta's bases didn't get any stronger since the Buu arc (despite all of their training with Whis and all their battles throughout Super) is simply dumb, impossible and contradicts everything shown in either version of Super.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:16 pm

zarmack wrote: "absorbed SSG in base"
This is the most baffling crap I have seen. I don't know why people keep claiming it to be the case based on so little supporting it.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:34 pm

PFM18 wrote: extremely briefly, right around the same time, expressed concern for killing Roshi and being disqualifiied. So it really doesn't' say anything.
Which also means nothing, because he was being amped by the lady that was controlling him. That's just the way that usually works in DB, and when she took hold of him, his ki aura flared up, which usually indicates a ki increase, and I believe a writer even commented on it making him stronger. It's impossible to say by how much it increased his power, but I still don't see any reason to believe he still isn't weaker than Tenshinhan.
See, thing is- we are talking about the ToP era. Frost held up against Piccolo in the Champa arc. And Goku is Goku. Even Tenshinhan by then should spike beyond the point where they're was a thing. Roshi, at the beginning of Z, was seen as being essentially fodder against Raditz in a 3 v 1 scenario. This is the same series where characters essentially bounce off opponents who are past a certain threshold, the odd one-off blindspot blow not withstanding. Remember the Namek fighters vs Dodoria? Vegeta vs Zarbon transformed? Transformed Zarbon vs post-zenkai Vegeta? Everyone vs Recoome? Ginyu being laughably outclassed by Kaioken Goku? I could just keep going on lol. So, Roshi's gains must be significant here. Even with the magic thing, I highly doubt she had talismans that just increase power a million fold. I'd have to watch the ep again, but I thought the implication was that he was fighting without restraint. Not unlike a Majin spell, which was said to draw out hidden power. Meaning the power belongs to the fighter to begin with. It doesn't create ki out of thin air.
This is the most baffling crap I have seen. I don't know why people keep claiming it to be the case based on so little supporting it.
The anime basically says it, and the Saiyan Beyond God state goes off it. I know that name isn't expressly used in the series. I don't agree with ppl who assume it's permanent base power and stacks with Super Saiyan. But the fact is, kind of like Gohan activating his ultimate power, Goku and Vegeta can amp their base up a huge amount. The fight with Freeza is the evidence of this. Freeza was hilariously beyond Piccolo and Gohan, probably Gotenks as well. In 1st form. Nobody there thought fighting him was feasible without Goku and Vegeta. And Goku casually handled his 4th form while in base.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: extremely briefly, right around the same time, expressed concern for killing Roshi and being disqualifiied. So it really doesn't' say anything.
Which also means nothing, because he was being amped by the lady that was controlling him. That's just the way that usually works in DB, and when she took hold of him, his ki aura flared up, which usually indicates a ki increase, and I believe a writer even commented on it making him stronger. It's impossible to say by how much it increased his power, but I still don't see any reason to believe he still isn't weaker than Tenshinhan.
See, thing is- we are talking about the ToP era. Frost held up against Piccolo in the Champa arc. And Goku is Goku. Even Tenshinhan by then should spike beyond the point where they're was a thing. Roshi, at the beginning of Z, was seen as being essentially fodder against Raditz in a 3 v 1 scenario. This is the same series where characters essentially bounce off opponents who are past a certain threshold, the odd one-off blindspot blow not withstanding. Remember the Namek fighters vs Dodoria? Vegeta vs Zarbon transformed? Transformed Zarbon vs post-zenkai Vegeta? Everyone vs Recoome? Ginyu being laughably outclassed by Kaioken Goku? I could just keep going on lol. So, Roshi's gains must be significant here. Even with the magic thing, I highly doubt she had talismans that just increase power a million fold. I'd have to watch the ep again, but I thought the implication was that he was fighting without restraint. Not unlike a Majin spell, which was said to draw out hidden power. Meaning the power belongs to the fighter to begin with. It doesn't create ki out of thin air.
This is the most baffling crap I have seen. I don't know why people keep claiming it to be the case based on so little supporting it.
The anime basically says it, and the Saiyan Beyond God state goes off it. I know that name isn't expressly used in the series. I don't agree with ppl who assume it's permanent base power and stacks with Super Saiyan. But the fact is, kind of like Gohan activating his ultimate power, Goku and Vegeta can amp their base up a huge amount. The fight with Freeza is the evidence of this. Freeza was hilariously beyond Piccolo and Gohan, probably Gotenks as well. In 1st form. Nobody there thought fighting him was feasible without Goku and Vegeta. And Goku casually handled his 4th form while in base.
The anime doesn't really say it, not in the slightest. Only way that you could possibly rationalize that is if Goku's rage boost was arbitrarily permanent when the rest in the entire series have not been.

And Saiyan Beyond God refers to a new form being God Ki in Base form, that only applied to the movie, because we can clearly see in Super that their Base form doesn't have God Ki.

The rest doesn't even remotely indicate that Base>BoG SSG.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:48 am

PFM18 wrote: The anime doesn't really say it, not in the slightest. Only way that you could possibly rationalize that is if Goku's rage boost was arbitrarily permanent when the rest in the entire series have not been.
So it's been awhile since you've watched episode 13, I assume. Nobody said anything about a rage boost. Goku was having fun. He lands a punch, and fist pumps yelling "alright!" while Beerus laments having to stop having fun with a friend. This portion of the fight wasn't terribly tense. And, when figuring out what happened, Goku states he doesn't feel weaker. Beerus tells him that the power is still inside him.

I'm not sure how you're going to sit here incredulous that it was never said or implied, when Goku is keeping up with Beerus as regular Super Saiyan (when hours before he couldn't touch the guy as a Super Saiyan 3)...and Beerus tells him his God power "fully merged with and became part of you."

And Saiyan Beyond God refers to a new form being God Ki in Base form, that only applied to the movie, because we can clearly see in Super that their Base form doesn't have God Ki.


No, it doesn't. It is a "God-like" state, but...as you noted yourself, doesn't have God Ki. RoF the film doesn't address it one way or another. But, we are discussing Super anyway, aren't we? The state isnt named in either iteration, but clearly "exists" as we see Goku fight Freeza with it. Unless, of course, your claim here is that 4th form DBS Freeza is on par with Buu Saga Base Goku. I'm going to give you benefit of the doubt that this isnt what you're getting at. Also, Copy Vegeta uses it to body Gotenks. This is also consistent with when he lost God form against Beerus. Everyone could sense him. He was mortal. But he maintained a God-like level of power. In fact, the other name for the form is "God-like Saiyan." When Goku or Vegeta introduce God ki proper into the mix as you claim, you end up with a Red or Blue Super Saiyan God. At least by the time of the ToP, which again to keep in context with the debate, is when we are discussing (since the question centers on Roshi in the ToP era). DBS did a decent job with the interval training arc between BoG and RoF explaining how they honed their power.
The rest doesn't even remotely indicate that Base>BoG SSG.
No one said "base is greater." The point is that, in base they can access power comparable. We dont know if it's an exact match, but it's well above Buu Saga's SSJ3. Their was the argument made above that base in the ToP is = to Buu Saga base, and that is beyond ridiculous. Whether you attribute it to being God-like or not, there are numerous examples proving this wrong. Exhausted Goku equaling SSJ Caulifla for example. Or Goku vs the Trio. Or Goku sparring with Buu. Or, since he and Vegeta are generally comparable, Copy Vegeta bodying Gotenks is a decent indicator. This is relevant because of his fight with Roshi. It shows significant growth from Roshi to roll on that level. And yes, I know Yurin's talisman was questioned. But there is no way those charms granted enough power to raise a guy from his old Z levels to able to whip Ten and fight ToP era Goku. And Goku himself attributes Roshi's power to him fighting unrestrained (and Roshi later admitting he's been pushing past his limits). There's not really any proof that he got a significant power boost from the spell beyond it controlling him and removing his restraints. The ToP has examples of it's own, but they've either been mentioned or aren't really worth arguing. If nothing else, to the question of how would Roshi fare in Z, his Mafuba mastery and ability to seal people as strong as Vegeta (even if that was a mistake) means he possibly could have stopped Buu.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:52 am

zarmack wrote:There is absolutely no way that this is true in either the anime nor manga. Even if you ignore the whole "absorbed SSG in base" thing, assuming that Goku & Vegeta's bases didn't get any stronger since the Buu arc (despite all of their training with Whis and all their battles throughout Super) is simply dumb, impossible and contradicts everything shown in either version of Super.
But I'm not saying "any stronger", just "more or less the same level". Also, there's a few evidences to support that affirmation, however people can interpret then differently.
PFM18 wrote:Why do you say that?
Which part?
Onikage725 wrote:The show is wildly inconsistent with this stuff, but Goku fires up an aura that looked a lot to me like his "Saiyan Beyond God" state.
True, but there's virtually no difference between the "Beyond God" and the common auras.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:11 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
True, but there's virtually no difference between the "Beyond God" and the common auras.
Eh, check my post above this. Aura or no, their are numerous examples of Goku (and a few for Vegeta) of them in base far outshining Buu Saga tiers of power.

A no-aura example is exhausted base Goku going toe to toe with Super Saiyan Caulifla. A with-aura example is Copy Vegeta taking out SSJ3 Gotenks, then Goku fighting him with his own aura flared (meaning Goku was on the same level).
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:16 am

Yup, but there's distinct explanations to each one of this examples.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:04 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:Yup, but there's distinct explanations to each one of this examples.
Not really sure what you're getting at.

Look, rewatch the Whis training mini arc. They are training in base. Vegeta states the weighted suit is more intense than Bulma's latest gravity chamber.

There is NO rational logic to assume after intense training plus learning precise control to minimize loss of power, that their power in base would be static. And that was the initial training. They both train throughout the series. And Vegeta has a couple RoSaT stints as well.

And I'm just going to add since this lengthy pointlessness of me regurgitating scenes and lines from the show you bumps could be looking up yourselves :x all started with Goku vs Roshi: on the subject of "was it Roshi or the talisman," what do we have?

Goku: Amazing energy. Oji-chan, you've been hiding your power from us! What a sensation. My fists are tingling! This is Oji-chan's power when he's not holding back! You've been doing a lot of training in secret.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:54 am

Onikage725 wrote:So it's been awhile since you've watched episode 13, I assume. Nobody said anything about a rage boost. Goku was having fun. He lands a punch, and fist pumps yelling "alright!" while Beerus laments having to stop having fun with a friend. This portion of the fight wasn't terribly tense. And, when figuring out what happened, Goku states he doesn't feel weaker. Beerus tells him that the power is still inside him.
I haven't seen ep 13 recently, but that isn't the one in question. Nothing was disputed about what happened in episode 13. What you are referring to isn't even the scene that was being discussed. I recommend you read into context more carefully, because this scene about Goku dropping into SSJ and not being weaker wasn't disputed, the dispute is in the premise that Base>SSG, which can only be rationalized by arbitrarily assuming that based on that one singular punch by Goku in episode 14.
I'm not sure how you're going to sit here incredulous that it was never said or implied, when Goku is keeping up with Beerus as regular Super Saiyan
This was never disputed. Again, please read more carefully. Obviously Goku's SSJ was as strong as SSG.
No, it doesn't. It is a "God-like" state, but...as you noted yourself, doesn't have God Ki. RoF the film doesn't address it one way or another. But, we are discussing Super anyway, aren't we? The state isnt named in either iteration, but clearly "exists" as we see Goku fight Freeza with it.
As the officiial name "Saiyan Beyond God" is described: It is "a God-like power without changing form" or "The power of a God without changing form." And since the words "ki" and "power" are interchangeable in this series, it is obviously referring to God Ki. And this makes sense, because a new name for their Base form wouldn't even make sense unless their was a new quality to it; in this case, God Ki. Now, this was only indicated in promotional material for RoF, and in the RoF movie, their Base forms were never sensed. In Super, people have no issue sensing their Base forms, therefore, the form does not exist in Super.

As far as fighting Freeza, there's no reason to think that isn't just Goku's Base form like it has been forever.
Also, Copy Vegeta uses it to body Gotenks.
Copy Vegeta uses his Base form to body Gotenks. Their Base forms are really strong.
In fact, the other name for the form is "God-like Saiyan."
That isn't "the other name for the form" that is just some garbage that Dragon Ball Wiki perpetuates. Unlike Saiyan Beyond God, it is not an official name of anything.
No one said "base is greater."
"absorbed into base" is clearly implying that their Base is stronger than SSG. So no, you are wrong about your claim that nobody is saying "Base is stronger."
but it's well above Buu Saga's SSJ3.
Yeah, obviously. That was never disputed. After the absorption stuff, Goku's Base makes Buu arc SSJ3 look like nothing.
Their was the argument made above that base in the ToP is = to Buu Saga base, and that is beyond ridiculous.
Yeah, it is beyond ridiculous, but I don't know why you are quoting me when you are talking about it. I didn't say it.

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by Onikage725 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:28 am

PFM18 wrote:]

Yeah, it is beyond ridiculous, but I don't know why you are quoting me when you are talking about it. I didn't say it.
I'm not going over for point with you about this anymore. I was replying to the guy above (and in the part referenced here was trying to explain that to you), who had responded to my initial response to the thread by challenging the idea that Roshi vs base Goku meant anything because Gokus base was no stronger than in Buu. You went in on my response to that. Whether you think it is because they can tap into a measure of their godly might, or simply raw training and ki control (two measures I allowed for, so, please check your own contextual grasp here), I was explaining how that was ridiculous but also showing how strong Goku in base was. Because, ultimately, the "why" isn't as important since the core discussion looks to scale Roshi.

And episode 13 is what people refer to as when Goku absorbed his God state. Because that's when it happened. It functioned weird in that ep, but was the bedrock for his later training and growth. I've literally never heard anyone say SBG was STRONGER. People say as strong, or a little weaker. Either way, your semantics on power = ki so any instance of one word means yadda yadda is irrelevant. In the Super anime, again being the iteration we are primarily discussing, the Whis training arc shows them learning to keep their ki inside without leaking. Raising their power to the God-like level, while also not being a God form (since we see time over they can be sensed, just as Goku could against Beerus). We seem to agree on this yet you want to argue, so I'm done on that point. You even see their power flare in this "God-like but not using God-ki" state and flash blue, their first indication of that form being possible.

Saiyan Beyond God/God-like Saiyan refers to a Saiyan who can raise his power to that comparable to a God without actually using God Ki or a Godly transformation. Goku Black even has a version of this. When at full power, the aura has more thickness and pressure than usual as a visual cue, but it's more a descriptive term than a form. The whole point is that it DOESN'T require transformation and that to attain it they master perfect ki control. The only reason people think it's a form is because it was named in a game. And games tend to treat every power up as a transformation.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:18 pm

The only reason people think it's a form is because it was named in a game.
No, that's incorrect. It first appeared in the RoF movie promotional material for the movie. It was very clearly referring to a Base form with God Ki. That name was re-used in a game years late.r

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Roshi would go pretty far. Might even solo. Dunno about Kuririn and Tenshinhan though, but they shouldn't fall far behind.
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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:43 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Roshi would go pretty far. Might even solo. Dunno about Kuririn and Tenshinhan though, but they shouldn't fall far behind.
Why do you say that?

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Re: How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:22 pm

PFM18 wrote:Why do you say that?
Not sure about the Anime, but the Manga has Roshi taking on Kahseral (Whose power is in Base Goku's league) and he implies he could've held his own with Frost as well. I just figure out Kuririn and Tenshinhan shouldn't fall that far behind from Roshi in terms of skill.
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