So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:02 am

If we're going by the anime continuity then Jiren is inarguably stronger than Broly. Jiren's power was stated to be considerably above that of any ki previously sensed by Vegeta and Kaioshin in EP109, which would include both Fused Zamasu (who put up a much better fight against SSB Vegetto than Broly did against SSB Gogeta) and Beerus (who cut loose against Champa twice, and who full-power LSS Broly was only "maybe" stronger than). Then he powered up considerably when preparing to fight UI-O Goku. Then he got substantially stronger than before when he became Jiren Sin Camisa, enough to clearly overpower MUI Goku who was styling all over him moments earlier. At that point he should be multi folds above the likes of Beerus, while Broly shouldn't be.

Though this film doesn't appear to be in that continuity given the absence of anime-only power-ups like Vegeta's sparkly form, plus manga-only things like SSG Vegeta and Time Lag showing up. Not to mention other minor things like the Gods of Destruction being present when Goku has a flashback about strong fighters he saw (when he never saw them fight in the anime) while Anilaza is absent (despite being stronger than SSB in the anime, and stronger than Dyspo, who was in the flashback).

If we're going by the manga continuity it's more ambiguous. Jiren is only stated to be stronger than Vermoud there, presumably at his full power rather than his suppressed level; but Vermoud performed rather well in the GoD exhibition match and Beerus was unable to break out of his energy spheres (while Liquiir could, despite being unable to harm Vermoud) so manga Jiren should still be stronger than Beerus, especially since he also appears to get stronger during the tournament. Albeit, not to the extent of his anime counterpart. That should, bare minimum, put him around the same power level as Broly. And Jiren, judging by his fight with MUI in both versions, is considerably more skilled than Broly, a berserker who never fought a peer opponent in his life, so at remotely similar levels of power he should have the edge.

There's not much to directly compare them off of beyond that and the occasional magazine ad with obviously nonsense statements like "Broly is the strongest ever." I'd say that they both occupy that same power range of "probably stronger than Beerus." And that if one if stronger than the other, it's not by a whole lot.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:39 am

The movie does not clearly take place in either continuity. It is in "Toriyama's continuity." SSG is not exclusive to the manga, Goku used it in the anime, and Vegeta has it in the anime, so there's really no manga-only elements to the movie at all. There's no Completed SSB, so the medium-exclusive forms from both mediums don't appear. It isn't any more anime than it is manga.

With that being said, there's a giant plethora of materials that state Broly to to be their strongest foe yet. Regardless of continuity or medium, Broly is stronger than Jiren.

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:58 am

PFM18 wrote:The movie does not clearly take place in either continuity. It is in "Toriyama's continuity." SSG is not exclusive to the manga, Goku used it in the anime, and Vegeta has it in the anime, so there's really no manga-only elements to the movie at all. There's no Completed SSB, so the medium-exclusive forms from both mediums don't appear. It isn't any more anime than it is manga.

With that being said, there's a giant plethora of materials that state Broly to to be their strongest foe yet. Regardless of continuity or medium, Broly is stronger than Jiren.
If that’s the case, that would severely cheapen the significance of Ultra Instinct. Still, has Toriyama ever said anything about how Broly and Jiren compare to another?

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by Rebel_Yeh » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:22 am

WittyUsername wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The movie does not clearly take place in either continuity. It is in "Toriyama's continuity." SSG is not exclusive to the manga, Goku used it in the anime, and Vegeta has it in the anime, so there's really no manga-only elements to the movie at all. There's no Completed SSB, so the medium-exclusive forms from both mediums don't appear. It isn't any more anime than it is manga.

With that being said, there's a giant plethora of materials that state Broly to to be their strongest foe yet. Regardless of continuity or medium, Broly is stronger than Jiren.
If that’s the case, that would severely cheapen the significance of Ultra Instinct. Still, has Toriyama ever said anything about how Broly and Jiren compare to another?
No, nothing from Toriyama himself. But Jiren should be able to defeat Broly. He went toe-to-toe with Ultra Instinct Goku, who should be able to defeat SSB Gogeta, who defeated Broly. Although SSB Gogeta is probably stronger, Ultra Instinct would enable Goku to have better reflexes and defeat SSB Gogeta. It’s probably the same for Broly and Jiren. Broly’s strength is greater than Jiren’s, but Jiren is the better fighter.

So Ultra Instinct Goku > SSB Gogeta
And Jiren > Broly

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:19 am

Rebel_Yeh wrote: Ultra Instinct Goku, who should be able to defeat SSB Gogeta
why, though? We don't have direct comparisons, nor anything resembling enough of a indirect comparison to compare them.

Unless one uses SDBHeroes(arcade).

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:11 am

Does it really matter at this stage?

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Does it really matter at this stage?
well, yes.
Gogeta Blue is quite visibly stronger than Broly FP
but
Goku UI is just a little stronger than Jiren Limit Break

If Goku UI is stronger than Gogeta Blue, that means Jiren, too, is stronger than Broly, because the difference in power between Goku UI and Jiren LB is smaller than the difference between Gogeta Blue and Broly FP

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by Rebel_Yeh » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:25 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Does it really matter at this stage?
well, yes.
Gogeta Blue is quite visibly stronger than Broly FP
but
Goku UI is just a little stronger than Jiren Limit Break

If Goku UI is stronger than Gogeta Blue, that means Jiren, too, is stronger than Broly, because the difference in power between Goku UI and Jiren LB is smaller than the difference between Gogeta Blue and Broly FP
That’s probably correct. After all, the Supreme Kai stated that Jiren’s power was unlike any other foe previously encountered. He saw Fusion Zamasu. SSB Vegito is probably around SSB Gogeta’s power (though I’d have to say SSB Vegito would be marginally more powerful due to the Potaras having divine power as well as the fact that there is a 30 minute time limit on Gogeta’s fusion). Broly couldn’t even touch SSB Gogeta. Fusion Zamasu was able to get at least some shots in on SSB Vegito. So Fusion Zamasu should be above Broly in power, but below Jiren.

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:29 pm

Rebel_Yeh wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Does it really matter at this stage?
well, yes.
Gogeta Blue is quite visibly stronger than Broly FP
but
Goku UI is just a little stronger than Jiren Limit Break

If Goku UI is stronger than Gogeta Blue, that means Jiren, too, is stronger than Broly, because the difference in power between Goku UI and Jiren LB is smaller than the difference between Gogeta Blue and Broly FP
That’s probably correct. After all, the Supreme Kai stated that Jiren’s power was unlike any other foe previously encountered. He saw Fusion Zamasu. SSB Vegito is probably around SSB Gogeta’s power (though I’d have to say SSB Vegito would be marginally more powerful due to the Potaras having divine power as well as the fact that there is a 30 minute time limit on Gogeta’s fusion). Broly couldn’t even touch SSB Gogeta. Fusion Zamasu was able to get at least some shots in on SSB Vegito. So Fusion Zamasu should be above Broly in power, but below Jiren.
Goku and Vegeta are at fundamentally different levels of power during the match against Broly than they were against Jiren or Zamasu. So I don’t know why we compare Vegetto to Gogeta. Do we not take the released statement seriously that potara and fusion are equal either?

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by DSB » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:11 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Rebel_Yeh wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote: well, yes.
Gogeta Blue is quite visibly stronger than Broly FP
but
Goku UI is just a little stronger than Jiren Limit Break

If Goku UI is stronger than Gogeta Blue, that means Jiren, too, is stronger than Broly, because the difference in power between Goku UI and Jiren LB is smaller than the difference between Gogeta Blue and Broly FP
That’s probably correct. After all, the Supreme Kai stated that Jiren’s power was unlike any other foe previously encountered. He saw Fusion Zamasu. SSB Vegito is probably around SSB Gogeta’s power (though I’d have to say SSB Vegito would be marginally more powerful due to the Potaras having divine power as well as the fact that there is a 30 minute time limit on Gogeta’s fusion). Broly couldn’t even touch SSB Gogeta. Fusion Zamasu was able to get at least some shots in on SSB Vegito. So Fusion Zamasu should be above Broly in power, but below Jiren.
Goku and Vegeta are at fundamentally different levels of power during the match against Broly than they were against Jiren or Zamasu. So I don’t know why we compare Vegetto to Gogeta. Do we not take the released statement seriously that potara and fusion are equal either?

I heavily doubt Goku and Vegeta are much stronger in the movie than they were my the end of ToP vs Jiren.

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:43 pm

DSB wrote: I heavily doubt Goku and Vegeta are much stronger in the movie than they were my the end of ToP vs Jiren.
if anything, they might have been WEAKER than vs Jiren, as against Jiren they were breaking through their limits the whole time

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by DSB » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:09 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
DSB wrote: I heavily doubt Goku and Vegeta are much stronger in the movie than they were my the end of ToP vs Jiren.
if anything, they might have been WEAKER than vs Jiren, as against Jiren they were breaking through their limits the whole time
Yes but once you break your limits, it sticks [other than UI]

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:48 pm

DSB wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:
DSB wrote: I heavily doubt Goku and Vegeta are much stronger in the movie than they were my the end of ToP vs Jiren.
if anything, they might have been WEAKER than vs Jiren, as against Jiren they were breaking through their limits the whole time
Yes but once you break your limits, it sticks [other than UI]
Then why didn't we see Vegeta's evolved SSJB form in the movie?
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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm

DSB wrote:Yes but once you break your limits, it sticks [other than UI]
Source on this?
I mean, both UI and UI-Sign are quite the counter argument.

Kaiohken, too: Goku wasn't able to use Kaiohken for a lot after the first time against Hit. This suggests limit breaking power-us don't stick
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Then why didn't we see Vegeta's evolved SSJB form in the movie?
We don't see Kaiohken, either. It's most likely a choice to kee the movie as simple as possible, with G&V going Base->SS->SSG->SSGSS

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:37 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The movie does not clearly take place in either continuity. It is in "Toriyama's continuity." SSG is not exclusive to the manga, Goku used it in the anime, and Vegeta has it in the anime, so there's really no manga-only elements to the movie at all. There's no Completed SSB, so the medium-exclusive forms from both mediums don't appear. It isn't any more anime than it is manga.

With that being said, there's a giant plethora of materials that state Broly to to be their strongest foe yet. Regardless of continuity or medium, Broly is stronger than Jiren.
If that’s the case, that would severely cheapen the significance of Ultra Instinct. Still, has Toriyama ever said anything about how Broly and Jiren compare to another?
He hasn't said it himself, but I would imagine among these several statements that were made throughout the different materials, at least one of them consulted Toriyama before saying it.

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by DSB » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:07 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
DSB wrote:Yes but once you break your limits, it sticks [other than UI]
Source on this?
I mean, both UI and UI-Sign are quite the counter argument.
Gohan IS the source. Also OG Super Saiyan. Cabba SSj2...

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:59 pm

PFM18 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The movie does not clearly take place in either continuity. It is in "Toriyama's continuity." SSG is not exclusive to the manga, Goku used it in the anime, and Vegeta has it in the anime, so there's really no manga-only elements to the movie at all. There's no Completed SSB, so the medium-exclusive forms from both mediums don't appear. It isn't any more anime than it is manga.

With that being said, there's a giant plethora of materials that state Broly to to be their strongest foe yet. Regardless of continuity or medium, Broly is stronger than Jiren.
If that’s the case, that would severely cheapen the significance of Ultra Instinct. Still, has Toriyama ever said anything about how Broly and Jiren compare to another?
He hasn't said it himself, but I would imagine among these several statements that were made throughout the different materials, at least one of them consulted Toriyama before saying it.
It just seems like it would render UI moot if that’s true. Why make UI into this incredible transformation/technique that even the Gods can’t fully master, and that Goku can’t even use at will, if it can easily be surpassed by a Super Saiyan Blue fusion?

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:28 pm

To ask this question completely shows that one doesn't know Dragonball story. Opponents are stronger than the last. People assume just cause Goku didn't use Ultra Instinct somehow makes Broly weaker. However, Even if Goku used Ultra Instinct against Broly it would be a stronger version previously used in the TOP against Jiren. Instead a fusion was used against a single opponent, wow that speaks incredible volumes for a foe of Goku and Vegeta's.

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:43 pm

Miracles wrote:To ask this question completely shows that one doesn't know Dragonball story. Opponents are stronger than the last. People assume just cause Goku didn't use Ultra Instinct somehow makes Broly weaker. However, Even if Goku used Ultra Instinct against Broly it would be a stronger version previously used in the TOP against Jiren. Instead a fusion was used against a single opponent, wow that speaks incredible volumes for a foe of Goku and Vegeta's.
So Freeza and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus?

Besides, doesn’t the movie take place shortly after the ToP? Would Goku and Vegeta have really made any tremendous gains in that time?

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Re: So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:37 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
If that’s the case, that would severely cheapen the significance of Ultra Instinct. Still, has Toriyama ever said anything about how Broly and Jiren compare to another?
He hasn't said it himself, but I would imagine among these several statements that were made throughout the different materials, at least one of them consulted Toriyama before saying it.
It just seems like it would render UI moot if that’s true. Why make UI into this incredible transformation/technique that even the Gods can’t fully master, and that Goku can’t even use at will, if it can easily be surpassed by a Super Saiyan Blue fusion?
Because it can be an incredible transformation/technique that is beyond what the Gods are capable of, while simultaneously being inferior to a Blue fusion? I mean, fusions have always been brokenly overpowered.

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