So.. Jiren or Broly, who is stronger?

[WittyUsername]

He hasn't said it himself, but I would imagine among these several statements that were made throughout the different materials, at least one of them consulted Toriyama before saying it.

It just seems like it would render UI moot if that’s true. Why make UI into this incredible transformation/technique that even the Gods can’t fully master, and that Goku can’t even use at will, if it can easily be surpassed by a Super Saiyan Blue fusion?

Because it can be an incredible transformation/technique that is beyond what the Gods are capable of, while simultaneously being inferior to a Blue fusion? I mean, fusions have always been brokenly overpowered.

But then why even make UI something that Goku can’t use at will? That would suggest that it’s supposed to be something special that can only be used under the right conditions, whereas fusion can be done at any point.

[Miracles]

To ask this question completely shows that one doesn't know Dragonball story. Opponents are stronger than the last. People assume just cause Goku didn't use Ultra Instinct somehow makes Broly weaker. However, Even if Goku used Ultra Instinct against Broly it would be a stronger version previously used in the TOP against Jiren. Instead a fusion was used against a single opponent, wow that speaks incredible volumes for a foe of Goku and Vegeta's.

So Freeza and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus?

Besides, doesn’t the movie take place shortly after the ToP? Would Goku and Vegeta have really made any tremendous gains in that time?

I don't know the time frame between the TOP and the Broly saga as I didn't see the movie yet. All we know is that Goku and Vegeta are still stronger then their TOP counterparts.

As for Beerus he was introduced from jumpstreet as Goku's goal. So he is the final obstacle, his intro set him up as the strongest. Everyone after him is weaker, despite facing weaker opponents, Goku and Vegeta do get significantly stronger, facing Freeza, Hit, Zamas Jiren, Broly, now it's Moro, eventually all this ladder climbing leads us back to Beerus, the touchdown marker.

[Champa The Destroyer]

If there's a statement saying that Broly was possibly stronger than Beerus, then doesn't that put Broly around MUI Goku (Initial)? That would put MUI Goku (Angry) and Jiren (limit broken) as still above him. However, judging by Broly's rapid power increase, I think he could beat both of them individually, though he would take a beating and it would take a bit for him to get stronger.

So, if we're asking who's stronger but the end of the Broly movie? I would say Jiren, but who would win in the fight? Imo Broly would, he's not too monstrously below Jiren and his rapid power increase is just too much.

[WittyUsername]

To ask this question completely shows that one doesn't know Dragonball story. Opponents are stronger than the last. People assume just cause Goku didn't use Ultra Instinct somehow makes Broly weaker. However, Even if Goku used Ultra Instinct against Broly it would be a stronger version previously used in the TOP against Jiren. Instead a fusion was used against a single opponent, wow that speaks incredible volumes for a foe of Goku and Vegeta's.

So Freeza and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus?

Besides, doesn’t the movie take place shortly after the ToP? Would Goku and Vegeta have really made any tremendous gains in that time?

I don't know the time frame between the TOP and the Broly saga as I didn't see the movie yet. All we know is that Goku and Vegeta are still stronger then their TOP counterparts.

As for Beerus he was introduced from jumpstreet as Goku's goal. So he is the final obstacle, his intro set him up as the strongest. Everyone after him is weaker, despite facing weaker opponents, Goku and Vegeta do get significantly stronger, facing Freeza, Hit, Zamas Jiren, Broly, now it's Moro, eventually all this ladder climbing leads us back to Beerus, the touchdown marker.

If that’s what they’re going for, I don’t see why Jiren was established as being as powerful as he was. Jiren was already stated to be on par with the Gods of Destruction. If Beerus is that much stronger than all the other Gods, what was even the point of that exhibition match in the manga? Beerus was badly injured by the end of that fight, and it was implied that Vermoud (the guy who’s weaker than Jiren) would’ve won the match if the Grand Priest hadn’t intervened. It just seems like a stretch to assume that Beerus is several times more powerful than Vermoud.

[Miracles]

So Freeza and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus?

Besides, doesn’t the movie take place shortly after the ToP? Would Goku and Vegeta have really made any tremendous gains in that time?

I don't know the time frame between the TOP and the Broly saga as I didn't see the movie yet. All we know is that Goku and Vegeta are still stronger then their TOP counterparts.

As for Beerus he was introduced from jumpstreet as Goku's goal. So he is the final obstacle, his intro set him up as the strongest. Everyone after him is weaker, despite facing weaker opponents, Goku and Vegeta do get significantly stronger, facing Freeza, Hit, Zamas Jiren, Broly, now it's Moro, eventually all this ladder climbing leads us back to Beerus, the touchdown marker.

If that’s what they’re going for, I don’t see why Jiren was established as being as powerful as he was. Jiren was already stated to be on par with the Gods of Destruction. If Beerus is that much stronger than all the other Gods, what was even the point of that exhibition match in the manga? Beerus was badly injured by the end of that fight, and it was implied that Vermoud (the guy who’s weaker than Jiren) would’ve won the match if the Grand Priest hadn’t intervened. It just seems like a stretch to assume that Beerus is several times more powerful than Vermoud.

You hold a popular fan thought but it's not factual. Beerus and Quitela were implied to be the strongest of the gods of destruction narration wise in the manga. Beerus out shined ALL the gods, including Belmond, who couldn't even touch or keep up with Beerus at the start of the match. No where was it stated/shown in anime or manga that Jiren or Belmond is on Beerus level. That crown goes to Quitela only [manga]. While belmond has been surpassed by a mortal in Jiren that is forgotten about by Broly power. While the narration has Beerus still the strongest, as it has the last current foe in Broly compared to him with doubts. Beerus is still waiting at the top where the story always had him.

[WittyUsername]

I don't know the time frame between the TOP and the Broly saga as I didn't see the movie yet. All we know is that Goku and Vegeta are still stronger then their TOP counterparts.

As for Beerus he was introduced from jumpstreet as Goku's goal. So he is the final obstacle, his intro set him up as the strongest. Everyone after him is weaker, despite facing weaker opponents, Goku and Vegeta do get significantly stronger, facing Freeza, Hit, Zamas Jiren, Broly, now it's Moro, eventually all this ladder climbing leads us back to Beerus, the touchdown marker.

If that’s what they’re going for, I don’t see why Jiren was established as being as powerful as he was. Jiren was already stated to be on par with the Gods of Destruction. If Beerus is that much stronger than all the other Gods, what was even the point of that exhibition match in the manga? Beerus was badly injured by the end of that fight, and it was implied that Vermoud (the guy who’s weaker than Jiren) would’ve won the match if the Grand Priest hadn’t intervened. It just seems like a stretch to assume that Beerus is several times more powerful than Vermoud.

You hold a popular fan thought but it's not factual. Beerus and Quitela were implied to be the strongest of the gods of destruction narration wise in the manga. Beerus out shined ALL the gods, including Belmond, who couldn't even touch or keep up with Beerus at the start of the match. No where was it stated/shown in anime or manga that Jiren or Belmond is on Beerus level. That crown goes to Quitela only [manga]. While belmond has been surpassed by a mortal in Jiren that is forgotten about by Broly power. While the narration has Beerus still the strongest, as it has the last current foe in Broly compared to him with doubts. Beerus is still waiting at the top where the story always had him.

It’s been a while since I read that chapter, but I don’t recall Beerus significantly outclassing any of the other gods in that match. Again, he was badly beaten up by the end of the match, while Vermoud wasn’t injured in the slightest. You could try to argue that’s only because he faked unconsciousness at the very end, except that Vermoud was shown taking part in the fighting earlier. He even appeared to outclass many of the other gods, such as Liquiir, so regardless of whether or not he’s stronger than Beerus, he certainly doesn’t appear to be one of the weaker Gods of Destruction. I’m not saying he is stronger than Beerus, but the manga certainly didn’t give a clear answer one way or the other. If anything, the manga seemed to intentionally leave it vague.

[Steven Bloodriver]

if anything, they might have been WEAKER than vs Jiren, as against Jiren they were breaking through their limits the whole time

Yes but once you break your limits, it sticks [other than UI]

Then why didn't we see Vegeta's evolved SSJB form in the movie?

Perhaps Son Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta had been using the Complete Super Saiyan Blue during Dragon Ball Super: Broly as a possible reason for why Super Saiyan Blue: 20X Kaioken and Beyond Super Saiyan Blue are not used at all in the events of the movie's battles showcasing the False Super Saiyan 4 form, the Super Saiyan form, and the Legendary Super Saiyan form of the titular Broly. Or a more likely reason as to why not include the SSJB: 20X Kaioken and BSSJB forms, would be because if Vegeta had the time to master his Beyond Super Saiyan Blue form, he would have simply transformed into the Beyond Super Saiyan Blue form right when his Super Saiyan God form had proved to not be enough against FSSJ4 Broly and would have made this knock-off of Super Saiyan 4 his bitch.

Probably even managing to break enough of Broly’s bones to force the latter right out of False Super Saiyan 4 before the likes of Broly could have become stronger than he already was through his growing hatred of being nothing more than a Slave and Beyond Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta would have finished him and the rest of the Frieza Force with a single move from his vast arsenal such as the Super God Big Bang Attack.

Or a worse case scenario would be Vegeta only resorting to his Beyond Super Saiyan Blue form upon witnessing the likes of Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku overwhelming False Super Saiyan 4 Broly enough to force the bastard Fourth Form Frieza to kill Paragus, the only Saiyan alive who still showed loyalty to the evil Frieza, which goes to show Frieza does not give a damn about anyone other than himself, or not if Frieza betraying himself is any indication, but back to the premise of this scenario, Frieza would have then wrongfully blame Son Goku, Vegeta, and Broly’s fights with each other for being the very cause of Paragus’ passing, which would in turn have sparked Broly’s transformation into a Demonic Super Saiyan and for a Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku to unleash the 20X Kaioken on top of his Super Saiyan Blue form, while Vegeta would have used his Beyond Super Saiyan Blue form in order to help SSGSS: 20X Kaioken Son Goku fight against the Demonic Super Warrior known as Broly in an increasingly difficult confrontation.

Which would have ended with another Beyond Super Saiyan Blue being born in Son Goku, as in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: 20X Kaioken Son Goku's repeated attempts in ascending by trying to force himself into awakening Ultra Instinct "Omen", the son of Bardock instead would have ascended into Beyond Super Saiyan Blue from being unable to correctly tap into the exact power he wanted. As Super Saiyan Broly trying to bulldoze him and Beyond Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta would have been enough of a distraction as to prevent the necessary amount of concentration needed for any inkling of Ultra Instinct, turning the tables on Super Saiyan Broly as the brutal berserker would get molly-whopped upon facing-off against two Beyond Super Saiyan Blues now, especially since Beyond Super Saiyan Blue would have made Son Goku be stronger than Vegeta, even when the two are in the same form.

With Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Son Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta combining their own techniques of Super God Kamehameha and Super God Galick Gun respectively, Super Saiyan Broly and Fourth Form Frieza would had been reduced to nothing but a pair of funny-looking blast shadows.

[Hugo Boss]

Then why didn't we see Vegeta's evolved SSJB form in the movie?

I guess Toriyama didn’t remember those break-limit forms or they were cut to give Gogeta more spotlight. My bet is that Vegeta could handle SS Broly with Beyond Blue while Goku could handle LSS Broly with Ultra Instinct.

[Koitsukai]

Watched the movie a couple of hours ago. I asked this question to some friends and there was no clear answer.
The producers did say that Broly was the strongest enemy ever, but I didn't see that in the movie. I saw him being stronger than dressed Jiren and Omen Goku, but I just don't see him being at the level of MUI Goku, naked Jiren and SSB Gogeta, I mean those guys are just out of this world, Broly was just so outclassed, I just didn't see Broly surpass veiny-head Jiren.
Freeza survived an hour, 60 full minutes of beating from SS Broly while just two blows from somewhat serious Jiren knocked the golden out of him and was out for 5 like episodes.

One could also take Vegito Blue into account, Shin stated that Jiren (ep109) was stronger than anyone before, meaning Zamasu and Vegito Blue would be dust against supressed Jiren. He then goes through like 3 more power ups, so even ToP Vegito Blue should be out the window or at best slightly weaker than dressed Jiren. I just don't see Goku and Vegeta getting that much stronger after the ToP to make their fusion go from not enough to deal with Jiren from e109 to being stronger than MUI Goku. We shouldn't forget just how unbelievably strong MUI. And then it got stronger, and faster, and stronger, and stronger. And it is so strong that he cannot access it anymore because its broken, and Jiren actually put up a fight against that.

Also, Goku at the end of the movie not telling Broly he is the strongest he ever fought and just ambiguosly placing him above Beerus(who was at least matched in the ToP several episodes before the finale) doesn't sell me Broly as the strongest either. Perfect moment to write him off as THE BIGGEST BADASS OF ALL TIME and nothing was truly said.

[apex_pretador]

Jiren is stronger, almost without a doubt.

• Broly fought Golden Freeza for like one hour if not more so, and Freeza was still conscious, still golden and still on his feet. In the end he was barely damaged. Before that, he gave Final form freeza a beatdown which made him smile.
  Jiren manhandled him and nearly killed him with a stray attack.
• A suppressed Jiren dominated KKx20 SSB Goku, a feat superior to anything Broly has ever done.
• Beerus was chilling in the sun while all the battle took place for hours, playing with baby bra, while he was freaking out in ToP every second. Sure his life was in danger there of erasure, but if Broly was really stronger than Beerus, Gogeta would be the strongest ki beerus ever sensed and would make him shit himself. But he was like oh, seems like kids are done playing.
  Sure, there is Goku's statement in the end, but it doesn't mean much since he doesn't know the full power of Beerus.
• SSB was shown to be superior to Broly in "base oozaru" form, and unless he is 100 times stronger than that in super saiyan form, which he isnt, there is no way he is superior to Jiren.
• In the end Goku and Freeza's words hinted at Broly not being several leagues above them. Sure he was stronger than any of them individually, but it was implied that all are capable of being in the same level.

[Hulk10]

Jiren is stronger, almost without a doubt.

• Broly fought Golden Freeza for like one hour if not more so, and Freeza was still conscious, still golden and still on his feet. In the end he was barely damaged. Before that, he gave Final form freeza a beatdown which made him smile.
  Jiren manhandled him and nearly killed him with a stray attack.
• A suppressed Jiren dominated KKx20 SSB Goku, a feat superior to anything Broly has ever done.
• Beerus was chilling in the sun while all the battle took place for hours, playing with baby bra, while he was freaking out in ToP every second. Sure his life was in danger there of erasure, but if Broly was really stronger than Beerus, Gogeta would be the strongest ki beerus ever sensed and would make him shit himself. But he was like oh, seems like kids are done playing.
  Sure, there is Goku's statement in the end, but it doesn't mean much since he doesn't know the full power of Beerus.
• SSB was shown to be superior to Broly in "base oozaru" form, and unless he is 100 times stronger than that in super saiyan form, which he isnt, there is no way he is superior to Jiren.
• In the end Goku and Freeza's words hinted at Broly not being several leagues above them. Sure he was stronger than any of them individually, but it was implied that all are capable of being in the same level.

But even when fighting as a team they weren't able to damage him and it was only when they fused that they turned the tables on him. Also using feats is not the best way to compare characters.

[Berserker1921]

Jiren is still the most powerful antagonist in DB. Jiren was able to do the impossible. He was able to hit and almost defeat a technique that was said that no one could hit. On his own power alone.

However we can fully compare Broly and Jiren until Super comes back. When they redo the Broly saga, Broly will probably get a major power boost, similar to how Beerus did in BoG saga. We will see then who is truly stronger.

But with the new saga, dealing with Moro. It seems we might be dealing with a villain who isn’t as powerful as the GoDs. But uses hacks and intelligence to defeat his enemies. As seen in the newest manga issue.

[Cursed Lemon]

Lost in all this is that we didn't see Broly's final form fight anyone other than Gogeta.

[Coola Yagami]

Honestly hard to say since we never saw Broly fight against Ultra Instinct Goku, nor did we see Jiren fight against Gogeta. Kinda depends on which form you would think is stronger, but Broly might take this one.

[Hulk10]

Its impossible to answer this question right now so we will have to wait to find out the answer.

[RandomGuy96]

Heroes seems to treat Jiren as stronger, for what it's worth.

[Tsufuru]

As of now if we just go by feats, Jiren. Jiren was the only known mortal that a GoD could not beat. However this could just apply to Belmond only. Belmond is also hinted to be stronger than Beerus. Jiren shook an infinite realm while super suppressed. He curb stomped Ssjblue kkx20 Goku and SsjBE Vegeta with little to no effort. Freezing him in time did not affect him. This was also when he was greatly suppressed, mind you. Jiren’s powerwas greater than Goku with UI for sometime. Before Goku mastered it, of course. However even after that, he still fought evenly with Goku for a short while. He was able to hit and hurt the untouchable or apex power up. That’s impressive. And he gained all this power on his own. No help from the gods or angels.

*spoilers*

Broly is a prodigy. He went easily from idk ssj Vegeta level to a power equal or possibly above Beerus in a matter of hours. However in the movie, Goku or Vegeta do not use their newer forms. They do not use Kaioken, SsjBE, or even Ultra instinct when battling Broly. Now you can say this is a different canon and they’re Ssjblues are they’re greatests forms. But they mention or hint at UI. So the forms must have existed in this movie. However the two don’t decide to use it. So makes me think, that they didn’t feel the need too or possibly it was too taxing to use.

Either way, I feel Jiren is stronger then Broly for now. Of course if and when super returns. And this becomes a saga, in which they fix the power scaling. Then we can get a definitive answer then. But for now...

Jiren>Broly

going by feats is stupid no offense.
jiren shook the entire realm while broly didnt but broly and gogetas clash was so powerfull they fucked with logic and somehow went to a another dimension while jiren and UI goku didnt.
you cant tell who is stronger , the only way you could tell if jiren fought the same gogeta.
I'm pretty sure if the anime retells the broly movie , no doubt they will make broly>jiren.

[wolflonnie]

I believe they're intended to be equal, or Broly being a bit more powerful than Jiren.