Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5695
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:01 pm

Let's say that the maximum output of the 17's power source is X Watts. Now if he trains and becomes 10 times stronger, suddenly his reactor can generate 10X Watts? How does that work? It's a mechanical device, how does it become more powerful just because he trained his organic body? And why not make the reactor that powerful to begin with? Why is there even a limit to the amount of energy it can generate per unit time, if it never runs out and can become more powerful?

This is not even getting into all of the issues with thermodynamics (the only other powers/techniques in the series that explicitly violate the first law of thermodynamics are divine powers like Hakai, the Super Dragonballs, Zeno's Erase ability, etc. Somehow Dr. Gero building a machine that does something similar stretches credibility).
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
RedRibbonSoldier#42
Regular
Posts: 710
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:37 am

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:32 pm

All Ki techniques violate conservation of energy. Physics just have to be ignored from the get go.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5695
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:56 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:All Ki techniques violate conservation of energy. Physics just have to be ignored from the get go.
If that was true then no one would ever get exhausted, and Hakai energy wouldn't be anything special.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Lionel » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:10 pm

Prior to Toriyama's interview comments and the developments in Super, I used to believe that the engines were the integral resource for the cyborgs' power -- not just with respect to stamina but their quantitative power, equivalent to ki, itself. But since we learned that the cyborgs have been genetically modified and can grow stronger, it's thrown everything out of order. Such a biological factor implies that their power originates from their organic biology, not the engines that were implanted. If this is so then the shutdown device shouldn't negate the threat they pose. It would only remove the infinite stamina factor.

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Tsufuru » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:43 pm

Toriyama cant make simple numbers add to each other.
do realy think he can make sense of how the androids work?
I'm not trying to insult him , but to be honest , he sometimes fails to make sense of the simpliest things.
when it comes to smart writing he is at the bottom.
he is lucky that his style and writing got other strength for it.

Vertical
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Vertical » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:07 am

There's 2 different systems in place:
1. Device that infinitely restores their stamina
2. Device(s) that enhances/multiplies their strength

The infinite stamina device could simply recharge [faster than it could ever be depleted] through various means... solar energy, thermal energy from the human body, gravity... whatever.

Then the other device(s) just enhances their strength by whatever means... meaning they can train and get stronger... and the enhancements multiply their strength as it grows

User avatar
Rubens
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 499
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:33 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Rubens » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:10 am

I've alway seen those reactors as something resembling batteries that store a type of energy equivalent to Ki, artificial ki of sorts, that are constantly full. I suppose if ki itself is some kind of latent universal energy, how do you even harness it? However that works, I think those "batteries" constantly produce and store this ki like energy. #19 seemed to be able to absorb natural ki and incorporate it into his own, so it's apparently possible to merge these two versions of ki (biological and artificial).

If the "androids" that are human based also had their bodies enhanced, their gainings in training will be largely superior compared to a regular human, so I guess their bodies play an important role regarding this "limitless feature". The reactor should have a limitation - I mean, Dr. Gero did try to supress 17 and 18's powers bit by bit until they were controllable, if I'm not mistaken - again, I assume it comes down to their altered physical bodies.
Lurking around here since 2014. Just an old fan who regained his passion for Dragon Ball since then.


Also a Berserk fan!

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Galan007 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:29 pm

Yeah, #17's reactor can simply auto-adjust from sub-Imperfect Cell output, to near-SSB output... cuz wildlife protector training, lol. Yes, I know the reactor is 'infinite' in the sense that it never depletes, but the notion that it can infinitely power #17, no matter how powerful he becomes, is pretty ridiculous.

It's like saying that a device capable of powering a light bulb forever can also power the sun forever. It's a massive stretch even by DB standards.

DragonBallFoodie
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:12 pm
Location: Zambia, Southern Africa

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:02 pm

Tony Stark made them, didn't he? So can Dr Gero.
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
A true hero goes beyond not the limits of power, but the limits that divide countries and people.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:17 pm

It wouldve been great if the Infinite energy core was the reason why 17 managed to become so powerful, but only if he managed to manipulate that part of his being to amp his human ki to insane levels. As it stands I can't quite understand what's going on with 17, I thought he should now be able to be sensed, and his energy that can be sensed would be around SSJG level. Of course that's not how it works, and he has somehow made his energy core stronger.
The heart may be weak. And sometimes it may even give in. But I've learned... that deep down there's a light that never goes out! -Sora

User avatar
Regarder
Regular
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:04 pm

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Regarder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:08 pm

Power and energy have always been mixed together in DB in a way that doesn't make much sense realistically.
How does that work? It's a mechanical device, how does it become more powerful just because he trained his organic body? And why not make the reactor that powerful to begin with? Why is there even a limit to the amount of energy it can generate per unit time, if it never runs out and can become more powerful?
The only thing I can think of (to give an in-universe explanation and not just say "it's fiction") is to say that the reactor always was that powerful, but it only gave 17 the energy at a rate (which is what power is) that his body could handle. When he trained he went beyond the level of the modifications that were making him stronger, and was able to handle using more power. 16 also shows this, since he was more powerful by virtue of being a true android and could thereby handle a higher amount of power from the reactor, but even still not so much that it wasn't worth building an additional bomb that could output more power than just blowing up the regular way. It could easily be that it's more difficult to make a machine or a fighter that can intelligently control the power than it is to make a sitting device strong enough to produce the power.

It's kind of like how Goku gets more and more powerful by learning to control higher amounts of ki without harming his body like Kaioken does. In fact the exact same problem can be rephrased for Goku, because even though he doesn't have infinite energy, he refills vast amounts of ki just by eating a lot and sleeping, so the DB universe must contain that ki somewhere already without it exploding everything, and that amount of ki just gets higher and higher as he unlocks stuff like Super Saiyan and then God and so on.

User avatar
Dagon
Banned
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:29 am

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Dagon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:48 am

17 and 18 were modified on the cellular level. Their power generation is tied to their biology, in a synthetically augmented way.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2033
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:30 am

Dagon wrote:17 and 18 were modified on the cellular level. Their power generation is tied to their biology, in a synthetically augmented way.
That is indeed correct. They don't have mechanical implants or anything, beyond those bombs they had in their chests.

The way I see it, their infinite energy is more in regards to their supply. While they can never run out of it, they have a limited output capacity. Through training, they can strengthen how much output of this energy they can handle whilst retaining the inexhaustible reserves.

Think of it like a lightbulb. Even if you have a theoretical unlimited energy grid, the bulb itself still has a limit to how bright it can be before burning itself out. The same principle applies to 17 and 18, only they can train themselves to increase this output capacity.

User avatar
Dagon
Banned
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 11:29 am

Re: Infinite energy reactors make no sense

Post by Dagon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:30 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: That is indeed correct. They don't have mechanical implants or anything, beyond those bombs they had in their chests.

The way I see it, their infinite energy is more in regards to their supply. While they can never run out of it, they have a limited output capacity. Through training, they can strengthen how much output of this energy they can handle whilst retaining the inexhaustible reserves.

Think of it like a lightbulb. Even if you have a theoretical unlimited energy grid, the bulb itself still has a limit to how bright it can be before burning itself out. The same principle applies to 17 and 18, only they can train themselves to increase this output capacity.
I agree completely.

Post Reply