Was Cell's core really a plothole?

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Regarder
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Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Regarder » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:56 pm

It seems to be taken as a plothole because he gets his upper half blown up by Goku and then still regenerates even though it's supposed to be inside his head, but the thing is, when we learn about his core, it's after his entire body detonates, so how can it really be? We are clearly shown that the core is ridiculously super durable. You might say, yeah, but even still, it should have been blown away by Goku's Kamehameha, but then his body wasn't blown very far by a planet busting Kamehameha that had to be aimed away from the ground, so it's easy for me to imagine that his core survived and fell down near his body and then combined when regenerating.

Either way, the main assumption is that the Kamehameha hit it AND DESTROYED IT because it was in his head, but that's only based on "Kamehameha strong, core weak", which is debunked by him being blown to smithereens and the core being unharmed. It took Gohan's SS2 power in a huge Kamehameha pushing his own Kamehameha back at him in order to destroy that thing and stop Cell from regenerating.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:00 pm

It could be that he can freely move it around inside his body, like Elder Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho.
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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Galan007 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:08 pm

Perhaps his core only 'activates' when there's nothing left of his physical body to regenerate from?

Dunno, never has quite made sense to me.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:06 am

So as long as we're guessing as to how Cell regenerated despite his clump being destroyed, perhaps his clump only came to be after Goku destroyed the top part of his body? It would make some sense since we never heard anything about such a silly plot device until Cell brings it up after his regeneration from self-destructing.
Its like this; Cell's body examined the damage dealt to it upon receiving Goku's kamehameha and concluded that another such blast could eliminate the entirety of it's being. Therefore, Cell's body programmed a rather tough clump of genetic material to grow within his head so that another large attack wouldn't completely destroy him.
I imagine that the supposed "perfect being" would only improve upon running into conflict.
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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Lukmendes » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:14 am

If the core wasn't destroyed by the kamehameha, it should've healed by itself somewhere else, not from his legs, so it's really just a plot hole.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:02 am

Given the information we're offered as far as how the nucleus works and the location Cell gave us, then it does stand as a plot hole. Unless the nucleus just "happened" to fall right into Cell's lower torso and he regenerated that way, then the nucleus should have been destroyed by the blast, and even if it hadn't been, then Cell should have regenerated from it and not from the lower body.

My own personal head canon to it is that, due to his insect genetic material, he has a number of nerve bundles along his body that act like autonomic brains for some basic functions if disconnected from the main brain (explaining how a wasp's body can walk around, fly, attempt to sting, etc for an extended period of time if the head is removed). These bundles are essentially back up nuclei of sorts, and work to regenerate the body if the main nucleus is destroyed or severed from the rest of the body. This would also go to explain how Cell's torso could right itself right before regenerating.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:03 am

I think there may be another way around it, although it definitely falls into head canon. I think this solution is that if the core is destroyed, it can be regrown so long as a good amount of the body remains (such as the legs, as happened with Goku's Warp Kamehameha). If almost all of the body is destroyed, however, the core must survive in order for it to regenerate. Does that make sense?

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Desassina » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:58 am

It's a plot hole, but you can try to work around it by saying that, when he regenerated, the core moved from somewhere in the middle to his head, because we see the latter showing up from his waist during regeneration. I wouldn't use it as an argument in discussion though. It's only a personal thing to make me go through it.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:26 am

Regarder wrote:It seems to be taken as a plothole because he gets his upper half blown up by Goku and then still regenerates even though it's supposed to be inside his head, but the thing is, when we learn about his core, it's after his entire body detonates, so how can it really be? We are clearly shown that the core is ridiculously super durable. You might say, yeah, but even still, it should have been blown away by Goku's Kamehameha, but then his body wasn't blown very far by a planet busting Kamehameha that had to be aimed away from the ground, so it's easy for me to imagine that his core survived and fell down near his body and then combined when regenerating.

Either way, the main assumption is that the Kamehameha hit it AND DESTROYED IT because it was in his head, but that's only based on "Kamehameha strong, core weak", which is debunked by him being blown to smithereens and the core being unharmed. It took Gohan's SS2 power in a huge Kamehameha pushing his own Kamehameha back at him in order to destroy that thing and stop Cell from regenerating.
Agreed. The plot hole claimers use a fallacy to claim it as such, stating that since his head was destroyed, that must mean ALL of its contents were as well, but that's nonsense. The only thing questionable is the details, because you do have to ask, if the nucleus just landed next to his body and attached itself to it and then regenerated or if it was attached throughout all of it and thus regenerated with the rest of the body, instead of making a new one.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Cetra » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:48 am

Agreed. The plot hole claimers use a fallacy to claim it as such, stating that since his head was destroyed, that must mean ALL of its contents were as well, but that's nonsense. The only thing questionable is the details, because you do have to ask, if the nucleus just landed next to his body and attached itself to it and then regenerated or if it was attached throughout all of it and thus regenerated with the rest of the body, instead of making a new one.
When he regenerates straight out of his lower body then him not needing to regenerate from his head is simply the next logical conclusion, making the head core part a plothole. That people say "Oh, but it might have survived and fallen into the lower body area or landed next to it and attached itself" is mental gymnastics to justify it. It is not the next logical thing. "Mights" are no "It was".
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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Regarder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:35 am

Cetra wrote:
Agreed. The plot hole claimers use a fallacy to claim it as such, stating that since his head was destroyed, that must mean ALL of its contents were as well, but that's nonsense. The only thing questionable is the details, because you do have to ask, if the nucleus just landed next to his body and attached itself to it and then regenerated or if it was attached throughout all of it and thus regenerated with the rest of the body, instead of making a new one.
When he regenerates straight out of his lower body then him not needing to regenerate from his head is simply the next logical conclusion, making the head core part a plothole. That people say "Oh, but it might have survived and fallen into the lower body area or landed next to it and attached itself" is mental gymnastics to justify it. It is not the next logical thing. "Mights" are no "It was".
I'm from the school that says if there's any way out of a plothole at all, then that is the only thing remaining, no matter how unlikely seeming. A plothole is a logical contradiction, and since contradictions can't literally happen, this is one of the few cases where mental gymnastics are not only not a bad thing, but actually required. The next logical conclusion can't result in a plothole, because then it's not logical, because plotholes are illogical. It's not a logical conclusion if it results in an illogical operation. It's far more logical for the core to be strong and to have attached to his lower body, even if that seems strange, random, and unstated. Being that it is not contradictory in of itself and actually solves the contradiction that is a plothole, it is in fact the most logical conclusion, no matter how odd that seems superficially.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Cetra » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:41 am

Regarder wrote:
Cetra wrote:
Agreed. The plot hole claimers use a fallacy to claim it as such, stating that since his head was destroyed, that must mean ALL of its contents were as well, but that's nonsense. The only thing questionable is the details, because you do have to ask, if the nucleus just landed next to his body and attached itself to it and then regenerated or if it was attached throughout all of it and thus regenerated with the rest of the body, instead of making a new one.
When he regenerates straight out of his lower body then him not needing to regenerate from his head is simply the next logical conclusion, making the head core part a plothole. That people say "Oh, but it might have survived and fallen into the lower body area or landed next to it and attached itself" is mental gymnastics to justify it. It is not the next logical thing. "Mights" are no "It was".
I'm from the school that says if there's any way out of a plothole at all, then that is the only thing remaining, no matter how unlikely seeming. A plothole is a logical contradictions, and since contradictions can't literally happen, this is one of the few cases where mental gymnastics are not only not a bad thing, but actually required.
But Cell did not even know what happened until he regenerated from self-destruction. He was totally surprised. So even if we would "accept" your mental gymnastics it would still make no sense. Cell should be surprised after regenerating from the Kamehameha then as he never had an idea of such extreme things to be possible. We can say "well maybe he though the lower body was enough, well maybe he thought a toenail that he does not even have was enough" but it is too much of stuff that just did not happen. Those mental gymnastics are not required. A plothole is simply a plothole. It has to be accepted until it is fixed, if even.
Regarder wrote:The next logical conclusion can't result in a plothole
Yes, the next logical conclusion and a plothole are very and possibly well co-existing: Both rely on the existence of a logical calculus.

But you meant it in another way.

Anyway, re-phrased: An established fact contradicting an established other event being explained by something what one ASSUMES to be a logical conclusion even though there is no hint for this derivation leads to such problems. That is sloppy, contradictory and I can't believe that I am always using this word for this ridiculous show, unscientific. And made-up explanations that do not even have any evidence with actual ground to stand on or are not of axiomatic nature are no problem solvers.
Last edited by Cetra on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:53 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:45 am

His top was blasted off into nothingness, something tiny dropping out of his head onto his legs, while everything else was being blasted off into space by the force of a kamehameha is illogical. Even if the core was durable, it's tiny, if not destroyed it should've been sent into space.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by wolflonnie » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:06 am

I don't see what's the big deal.
Cell can regenerate as long as:

1) There is a portion of his body, and/or
2) The nucleous still exists.

Point 1 doesn't depend on point 2 and viceversa.
It's how it was presented that it's a bit confusing and gives you the impression that point 1 depends on point 2. But it's a false impression, simple as that.
You can interpret Cell's explanation as: "you though I exploded? Yeah too bad that little thing survived".

So basically to kill Cell you have to obliterate his body and then make sure the nucleous is destroyed as well. Same principle as Buu really.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Lukmendes » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:36 am

wolflonnie wrote:I don't see what's the big deal.
Cell can regenerate as long as:

1) There is a portion of his body, and/or
2) The nucleous still exists.

Point 1 doesn't depend on point 2 and viceversa.
It's how it was presented that it's a bit confusing and gives you the impression that point 1 depends on point 2. But it's a false impression, simple as that.
You can interpret Cell's explanation as: "you though I exploded? Yeah too bad that little thing survived".

So basically to kill Cell you have to obliterate his body and then make sure the nucleous is destroyed as well. Same principle as Buu really.
The first one is a Funimation only line (Which also creates a contradiction, funnily enough), the way he worded it in the original after the self destruction points out that only the core of his head can regenerate him, it'd also be redundant anyways if he could just regenerate with any part of his body but then say "btw, I have some nucleus in my head that can do that too".

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:28 pm

Yes.

The mechanics surrounding Cell's core, with the information were given from Cell himself, make the circumstance of him regenerating after Goku's point black Kamehameha plothole.

Cell states he has a core in head that allows him to regenerate as long at it stays intact. The top half of his body had been previously destroyed by Goku, meaning he shouldn't be able to regenerate, but he still does. It's a fuck-up. And a major one at that.

But, hey, those the consequences that come with writing by the seat of your pants. :)

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:01 pm

wolflonnie wrote:I don't see what's the big deal.
Cell can regenerate as long as:

1) There is a portion of his body, and/or
2) The nucleous still exists.

Point 1 doesn't depend on point 2 and viceversa.
It's how it was presented that it's a bit confusing and gives you the impression that point 1 depends on point 2. But it's a false impression, simple as that.
You can interpret Cell's explanation as: "you though I exploded? Yeah too bad that little thing survived".

So basically to kill Cell you have to obliterate his body and then make sure the nucleous is destroyed as well. Same principle as Buu really.
Except that Cell's dialogue specifically says that he needs the nucleus to continue to regenerate.
Cell: “There’s a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn’t destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn’t calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…And I even managed to learn Son Goku’s Teleportation…So in short, I was able to return here, having become even more perfect. It seems that rather than defeat me, Son Goku has given me several presents.”
There's no two ways of looking at what he said, or any way of trying to explain it away from what is presented to us. Clump isn't destroyed = can regenerate. Clump is destroyed = cannot regenerate. Those are the only conditions ever actually established as to whether or not he could regenerate. Him being able to regenerate from a portion of his body, provided that piece doesn't include an intact nucleus, is contradictory to what he states.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Muffin Man » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:26 pm

The simplest and most logical resolution between what we see and what Cell says is that the nucleus is inside Super Perfect Cell's head but not inside Perfect Cell's head. Maybe the lack of Android 17 and 18 caused Super Perfect Cell to regenerate with an altered internal physiology.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:14 pm

Muffin Man wrote:The simplest and most logical resolution between what we see and what Cell says is that the nucleus is inside Super Perfect Cell's head but not inside Perfect Cell's head. Maybe the lack of Android 17 and 18 caused Super Perfect Cell to regenerate with an altered internal physiology.
I don't see that as a logical resolution, I see no reason why his core's location would have changed. And no, he didn't lose 17, he only lost 18.

It's just a plot hole. Plain and simple.

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Re: Was Cell's core really a plothole?

Post by Muffin Man » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:17 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Muffin Man wrote:The simplest and most logical resolution between what we see and what Cell says is that the nucleus is inside Super Perfect Cell's head but not inside Perfect Cell's head. Maybe the lack of Android 17 and 18 caused Super Perfect Cell to regenerate with an altered internal physiology.
I don't see that as a logical resolution, I see no reason why his core's location would have changed. And no, he didn't lose 17, he only lost 18.

It's just a plot hole. Plain and simple.

Cell states that the nucleus necessary for regeneration is located in his head, present tense. He never says that it was always in his head. Earlier we saw his head get destroyed, yet he regenerated, meaning his nucleus must not have been destroyed. Therefore, the only possible explanation is that his nucleus wasn't in his head at that particular time. It doesn't matter if that's an intuitive explanation. If it's the only possible explanation, then that's the best one to go with.

The only other option is to just shout "plothole" and completely abandon the make-pretend game we're playing that this is all in any way real, which is just no fun. Like, try to imagine that your TV is a window into another world, and that the stuff you're seeing is real. How would you explain what you see, in this case?

(The funny thing is that real life is full of things that people would call plotholes if they were part of a fictional story, but I digress...).

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