Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

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Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:09 am

If that’s the case, then there’s a whole different way to interpret the Boo saga’s convoluted power scaling, which I don’t want to write an entire novel explaining what I think.
Obviously this is referring to SSJ3 Goku Boo arc since SSJ3 Goku in Super is saiyan beyond god realm now.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Lionel » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:24 am

Something about a V-Jump scan, yes. I know what you're referring to.
Personally, I put about as much stock into it as I do Vegeta having a power level of 250,000 from his second to last zenkai on Namek. I normally try to respect and incorporate their information because it can be valuable, but in instances like this where their publications flagrantly contradict the source canon material, my opinion is to side against what they're suggesting.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:07 pm

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:If that’s the case, then there’s a whole different way to interpret the Boo saga’s convoluted power scaling, which I don’t want to write an entire novel explaining what I think.
I think it can be very simple. Goku never tried to fight at full power, so he didn’t believe he could beat Boo on his own. Of course, he also underestimated the energy consumption of SS3.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:30 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:If that’s the case, then there’s a whole different way to interpret the Boo saga’s convoluted power scaling, which I don’t want to write an entire novel explaining what I think.
I think it can be very simple. Goku never tried to fight at full power, so he didn’t believe he could beat Boo on his own. Of course, he also underestimated the energy consumption of SS3.
How can this even make sense when Gotenks exists?

This new info implies Base Goku >> Base Gotenks...

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:51 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:If that’s the case, then there’s a whole different way to interpret the Boo saga’s convoluted power scaling, which I don’t want to write an entire novel explaining what I think.
I think it can be very simple. Goku never tried to fight at full power, so he didn’t believe he could beat Boo on his own. Of course, he also underestimated the energy consumption of SS3.
How can this even make sense when Gotenks exists?

This new info implies Base Goku >> Base Gotenks...
So, they decided to make Goku stronger than Gotenks.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:15 am

Hugo Boss wrote: So, they decided to make Goku stronger than Gotenks.
But that conflicts with the manga.

Hell, even Goku says flat out he is weaker than Evil Boo.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:34 am

Can it be anymore silly than the power boosts 17, Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan, and even a Roshi got in Super. 17 died when kid Buu destroyed earth...what power boost allowed him to rival a god of destruction.
Everyone goes “meh” at the idea of Toriyama logic. But lose their shit over TOEI logic. So what if Goku > Gohan and Gotenks in Boo arc.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:57 am

Promotional material says dumb stuff all the time.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Can it be anymore silly than the power boosts 17, Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan, and even a Roshi got in Super. 17 died when kid Buu destroyed earth...what power boost allowed him to rival a god of destruction.
Everyone goes “meh” at the idea of Toriyama logic. But lose their shit over TOEI logic.
But every power boost you just listed was Toei-only, comparing the Toei anime to the comparatively more Toriyama-supervised manga.

-17 is not on par with a God of Destruction in the manga, he's slightly stronger than SS3 Goku. Still a huge jump, but nowhere near as improbable (the manga also explains he's been training with Cell Juniors for some 13 years which makes it a little more logical).

-Krillin, Piccolo, and Roshi are never noted to have gotten significantly stronger, despite training for quite a while.

-Gohan's a "maybe", since we don't actually know for sure how much stronger he was compared to his Z self.

Your point would have been better served bringing up Freeza; but even then that wouldn't really be a valid comparison to the idea that Goku is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan in the Buu arc (he isn't).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by RedShift » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:04 am

Not that I'm a regular on this board, but I put next to no stock into anything SeththeProgrammer says/does/claims. Super Saiyan 3 was introduced & discarded too quickly with no real fleshing out. Goku had only done the transformation a couple times before his encounter with Majin Buu and he had never actually used it in a fight. He also grossly underestimated the ki consumption of the form. In the manga Goku goes full blast against Kid Buu and can't win due to stamina drain and Majin Buu's regeneration, while the anime says Goku let things drag on so Vegeta could have a go at Kid Buu.

Anyways, I do not believe for a second that Gotenks was significantly more powerful than SSj3 Goku was. Gotenks gets bodied by Fat Buu in base form, and when he screws around against Super Buu in the room of Spirit and TIme with some special attacks he does zero lasting damage against Super Buu and is in no way in command of the fight - Super Buu seems to be bored and humoring him. When Gotenks goes SSj3 he has a clear advantage but is still not dominating Super Buu... Goku did not go close to all-out against Fat Buu. Even if you consider SSj3 Gotenks & SSj3 Goku on similar(ish) levels in overall ability (read: even if Gotenks was stronger, Goku is a WAY better fighter with more experience) it makes no sense for Goku to be equal to Buuhan given the context of what happens in the manga and/or anime... As far as SSj3 Goku being equal to Ultimate Gohan... Maybe some sort of hypothetical situation where Goku was still dead and went to his absolute max until he ran out of gas? Besides that I would say that's just factually wrong.

Super Saiyan 3 has the exact same problem that Freeza's Golden form did at it's introduction. Except the writers/Akira Toriyama chose to have Frieza master the transformation to become practical, while Super Saiyan 3 was discarded immediately to make way for the SSjG and SSjB to launch a new series and sell merchandise. I have no doubt that the energy consumption of SSj3 could be mitigated substantially if Goku actually spent a significant amount of time training with the form (aka Cell saga), but when you're packing god-forms at all time there's no reason to bother where the series is now. It would take some sort of contrived situation where the God forms aren't available for such a thing to be necessary... and at that point the cast can just bring Broly along to effortlessly paste anything that isn't a God of Destruction.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:28 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Promotional material says dumb stuff all the time.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Can it be anymore silly than the power boosts 17, Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan, and even a Roshi got in Super. 17 died when kid Buu destroyed earth...what power boost allowed him to rival a god of destruction.
Everyone goes “meh” at the idea of Toriyama logic. But lose their shit over TOEI logic.
But every power boost you just listed was Toei-only, comparing the Toei anime to the comparatively more Toriyama-supervised manga.

-17 is not on par with a God of Destruction in the manga, he's slightly stronger than SS3 Goku. Still a huge jump, but nowhere near as improbable (the manga also explains he's been training with Cell Juniors for some 13 years which makes it a little more logical).

-Krillin, Piccolo, and Roshi are never noted to have gotten significantly stronger, despite training for quite a while.

-Gohan's a "maybe", since we don't actually know for sure how much stronger he was compared to his Z self.

Your point would have been better served bringing up Freeza; but even then that wouldn't really be a valid comparison to the idea that Goku is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan in the Buu arc (he isn't).

When people say that Toriyama has been more involved with the manga, is false.

He does art corrections and at times when necessary lore corrections.
Manga is purely illustrated, so of course it’s going to be edited by Toriyama.
they ignore the wave of interviews regarding the tournament of power which the anime staff clearly states just how involved Toriyama is with the anime.
Also, Toriyama has never named Toyotaro his successor.

No mater how you justify it, Roshi put up a fight regardless of being far weaker which means he’d at least have to be Boo saga tier right?

I forgot to bring up Freeza.

And 17 up against Saiyan beyond god SSJ3? Not as bad, but still bad.

Promotional material can’t be considered? I’m sure it’s worth more than arguments on here.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:13 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote: When people say that Toriyama has been more involved with the manga, is false.
It's not. He checks every chapter of the manga but doesn't even read the anime's scripts before they're sent out for production.
He does art corrections and at times when necessary lore corrections.
Manga is purely illustrated, so of course it’s going to be edited by Toriyama.
He doesn't just do art corrections; he draws entire pages, adds dialogue, and overall gets very picky about what goes in while occasionally contributing significant bits himself.
they ignore the wave of interviews regarding the tournament of power which the anime staff clearly states just how involved Toriyama is with the anime.
Which is actually very little, as they describe it. He pretty much just gives them the outline (same outline he gives Toyotaro) and that's it. You even have Nakamura openly speculating about Toriyama's intentions with the outline (like what Jiren's personality was even supposed to be or what Krillin's role in the ToP was going to be) because apparently Toriyama never actually told him.
No mater how you justify it, Roshi put up a fight regardless of being far weaker which means he’d at least have to be Boo saga tier right?
Roshi didn't put up a fight against anyone.
Promotional material can’t be considered? I’m sure it’s worth more than arguments on here.
It's worth roughly nothing.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:31 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote: Promotional material can’t be considered? I’m sure it’s worth more than arguments on here.
It's worth roughly nothing.
Agreed. I could never take unbacked statements like this seriously, when it comes from a faceless goon, who might as well have put their own ideas into it, because I really don't expect the editors to seriously fact check such a specific line.
If it came from someone with a name attached, I think it'd be worth listening to.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:18 am

dbgtFO wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote: Promotional material can’t be considered? I’m sure it’s worth more than arguments on here.
It's worth roughly nothing.
Agreed. I could never take unbacked statements like this seriously, when it comes from a faceless goon, who might as well have put their own ideas into it, because I really don't expect the editors to seriously fact check such a specific line.
If it came from someone with a name attached, I think it'd be worth listening to.
Yes, I think we all get the idea. Goku said he was weaker than Gotenks and Base Super Boo. It was also made clear that he was no match for all other forms and concluded that he could handle Kid Boo. But I think what some people get at is the other interpretation said above from Hugo Boss "I think it can be very simple. Goku never tried to fight at full power, so he didn’t believe he could beat Boo on his own. Of course, he also underestimated the energy consumption of SS3." Then after that, he overestimates it during the fight with Kid boo because he's now in a living body. It's possible that when Goku confessed that he could have beaten Fat boo all along, he was also indirectly stating he was a lot stronger than he thought and therefore could have beaten Super boo as well. Possibly validating SSJ3 Goku = Boohan. Perhaps it was retconned the moment he confirmed that, because Toriyama changed his mind and wanted to make Goku the hero again, and given the pattern of the rest of the series, the hero has always been the strongest. Then in DB Super BOG Arc we have Vegeta restating what he said during the fight with Boo and after he defeated him he became #1.

But then again, It also appears the V Jump quote may have been misinterpreted. It's awkwardly phrased but says that "Boo gained power, a power being Gohan which is on par with SSJ3 Goku" therefore the quote was referring to SSJ3 Goku = Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:22 am

It's worth noting that Herms translated it the same way:
Image

I'm firmly in the Kid Buu > every unfused character camp and if you rereadad the manga, all the content more than implies that Kid Buu was intended to be the strongest by the end. There are convenient excuses for Goku hiding his power throughout. An easy narrative is that Goku never wanted to beat Buu since he was dead. Then when he's revived his goal was to save everyone first so he needed Fusion. Once inside, he was underpowered and couldn't stop Super Buu from just re-absorbing everyone.

The alternative narrative makes little sense. So supposedly Gohan and Gotenks could beat Kid Buu but no one bothers to mention this even though everyone is already throwing in their two cents into the Genki Dama plan. We have an excuse for Vegeta but no one else and everyone loves to point out how stupid this or that plan is in Buu saga. Gohan and the kids donating to the Genki Dama with it still almost failing is a good indicator of what the narrative intent is supposed to be.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:37 am

MisterGuyMan wrote: I'm firmly in the Kid Buu > every unfused character camp and if you rereadad the manga, all the content more than implies that Kid Buu was intended to be the strongest by the end. There are convenient excuses for Goku hiding his power throughout. An easy narrative is that Goku never wanted to beat Buu since he was dead. Then when he's revived his goal was to save everyone first so he needed Fusion. Once inside, he was underpowered and couldn't stop Super Buu from just re-absorbing everyone.

The alternative narrative makes little sense. So supposedly Gohan and Gotenks could beat Kid Buu but no one bothers to mention this even though everyone is already throwing in their two cents into the Genki Dama plan. We have an excuse for Vegeta but no one else and everyone loves to point out how stupid this or that plan is in Buu saga. Gohan and the kids donating to the Genki Dama with it still almost failing is a good indicator of what the narrative intent is supposed to be.
Goku not wanting to beat Buu only is a factor when it came to him being dead. Afterward, there's no indication that beating Buu wasn't his intention if it presented itself or that saving everyone first was his goal all along. Likewise, there's no indication that Goku was underpowered while inside the regular Evil Buu, and his statement about him and Vegeta standing no chance against Evil Buu (and that they'd need to fuse again) was in regards to them leaving his body, thus even if they were underpowered inside him, they'd be normal strength outside. Goku's statement regarding him and Vegeta needing to fuse again trumps anything supporting Pure Buu being the strongest, because there's just no way around what Goku is saying about it.

Goku brought up Gohan and Gotenks immediately after Vegeta mentioned restoring the Earth and reviving its population, and then acts bewildered why Vegeta would want to use the Genki Dama when it hadn't worked in the past. Likewise, Gohan and the boys donating doesn't say anything about the intent, as the Genki Dama only draws upon one element of ki, not the entirety of it, so Gohan could be miles ahead of Pure Buu and still not have enough genki (the element that is drawn upon) to beat Buu.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Lionel » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:26 pm

Image

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”

We have a direction confirmation from the manga itself that Gohan's potential exceeds everyone else's within the Z-fighters group. Goku made no attempts to discredit or argue against Vegeta's statement, suggesting he was in agreement. It's coincident with all of the acclaim that hybrid Saiyans have received since the earliest parts of the Saiyan arc. More to that point, we see Elder Kaioshin describe how his technique can not only release a fighter's dormant potential but also elevate it greatly past its limitations. Gohan is a recipient of this ritual and had his potential unleashed during the Buu arc. With this being the case, how in the world can Goku not only match Ultimate Gohan but the conglomerated super warrior that is Buuhan who took the powers of both Gohan and Super Buu, a being who is roughly in the same league, and combined them together? Manga should take precedence over supplementary material like guides, in my opinion.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by wolflonnie » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:18 pm

Sorry to say, but I always knew that the astronomical difference between Goku and Gotenks, Gohan and Buu was just some Internet myth :lol: never believed for a sec that SSJ3 Goku was like x400 weaker than freaking useless SSJ Gotenks just because of some Toriyama gag. Glad they confirmed it. Although me, I always thought that Goku was close-ish but not quite on par with them.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Lukmendes » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:30 pm

I can only imagine how terrible is must be to be a DB power scaller when shit like that comes out :lol:

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:44 pm

Reading this again it actually says that Gohan is on par with SS3 Goku not Boohan and that isn't that bad.

Gohan > Evil Boo = Gotenks > Goku can still be true even with that.

This would make Gotenks very weak but we do have that Daizenshuu tidbit that he never surpassed Vegeta until his RoSaT trip so it could fit.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:52 pm

Darkprince410 wrote: Goku not wanting to beat Buu only is a factor when it came to him being dead. Afterward, there's no indication that beating Buu wasn't his intention if it presented itself or that saving everyone first was his goal all along. Likewise, there's no indication that Goku was underpowered while inside the regular Evil Buu, and his statement about him and Vegeta standing no chance against Evil Buu (and that they'd need to fuse again) was in regards to them leaving his body, thus even if they were underpowered inside him, they'd be normal strength outside. Goku's statement regarding him and Vegeta needing to fuse again trumps anything supporting Pure Buu being the strongest, because there's just no way around what Goku is saying about it.
Vegito could have easily defeated Buu but opted to abuse him just so he could save everyone. So obviously saving everyone is preferable to just beating Buu and letting everyone die. But as a worst case scenario you can't prove it one way or another. That's the point. I could also use that logic to say that Goku notes that Buu's power is getting larger when they escape and there's no indication after that of it ever decreasing.

And yes, there is evidence Goku was underpowered. He says he'll make a big hole inside Buu, fails after firing a blast and Super Buu explains it's because they're so small.
Goku brought up Gohan and Gotenks immediately after Vegeta mentioned restoring the Earth and reviving its population, and then acts bewildered why Vegeta would want to use the Genki Dama when it hadn't worked in the past. Likewise, Gohan and the boys donating doesn't say anything about the intent, as the Genki Dama only draws upon one element of ki, not the entirety of it, so Gohan could be miles ahead of Pure Buu and still not have enough genki (the element that is drawn upon) to beat Buu.
Goku only says it's a bad idea before Vegeta explains that everyone will donate all their energy. After that King Kai is fully on board and so is Goku. Very obvious is how no one else ever mentions Gohan again. Old Kaio, King Kai, Kaio Shin, Piccolo, Dende and Gohan all have a part in fine tuning various plans to beat Buu, are all in constant mental communication, almost all complain about Saiyans when they make stupid plans and not one person says they should go with Gohan.

It should be clear that once Kid Buu appears, everything points to Kid Buu being stronger. The entire last fight only makes sense if he can beat Gohan. Daizenshuu supports this narrative in severa excerpts too. The second episode of DBS labels Goku the strongest only after Buu is defeated. The DBS manga says Earth was facing inevitable destruction except the Genki Dama. The anime version of the ToP shows us that Gohan donating to a Genki Dama multiplies is power. Now we have VJump magazine telling us that at least in the manga version of DBS Kid Buu is strongest of the unfused characters as well. Note that the DBS manga version is created first and foremost for VJump so now both versions of DBS agree at least on this point.

To emphasize the point the statement that Goku makes while inside Super Buu was in Chapter 508. That released 24 years ago! Since then we have the Kid Buu fight, Daizenshuu, the BoG movie, the DBS anime and the DBS manga all emphasizing the Kid Buu narrative. We might as well argue that Vegeta was stronger than Frieza in Saiyan Saga or Burtur was faster than Frieza on Namek if we're going to keep ignoring new informaiton.

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