Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:11 pm

Darkprince410 wrote: It doesn't matter that Rou Kaioushin hadn't seen Goku fight. The fact remains that Goku acknowledged it and accepted it at face value, thus it holds weight. Goku is only stated to be the only one who could defeat Pure Buu when it was just him and Vegeta available to fight, and Gohan only donated genki, not his total ki, so his actual capacity against Buu isn't expressed by what his genki could do against Buu.
It matters because you were citing Old Kaio's statement as evidence and if he never witnessed Goku, he's not reliable. And if we're going with what Goku says now, then he also never corrects Vegeta when he says he's the only one who can fight him. Goku flat out says everyone will die without Satan and Good Buu meaning the Genki Dama after the fight and during the fight he says Gohan's power isn't enough when he donates. Then after 10 years of extra training he tells Fat Buu to fix the tournament seeding because he wants all his power against Uub. These are all later statements from Goku. Daizenshuu further elaborates on his mentality. It says his feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest and it says Goku waited for a rematch with Buu above all others. It says elsewhere that he lives to fight the strongest. If we're going with Goku perspectives then it's stacked in favor of Kid Buu.
I'm not citing obsolete information at all. The Daizenshuu speaks of Buu in general, not Pure Buu specifically, the DBS anime and manga are vague at best, and Kai only supports it because it retains the anime's filler content on the matter. Nothing in the original manga (which still holds the most weight) supports Pure Buu being stronger than Evil Buu.
All your pieces of evidence are over 24 years old. And I cite the original manga as well. You cite Super Buu saga information. I cite Kid Buu saga information which is later. And the big difference here is that when I make claims about what the Kid Buu saga is telling us, I can also cite Daizenshuu, the official Manga guide, to collaborate. And DBS anime/manga now collaborate what Daiz is saying too. You can argue with me as to what the Manga is saying but it's not just me at this point. You're arguing the past quarter century of DB information.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:52 am

MisterGuyMan wrote: And if we're going with what Goku says now, then he also never corrects Vegeta when he says he's the only one who can fight him. Goku flat out says everyone will die without Satan and Good Buu meaning the Genki Dama after the fight and during the fight he says Gohan's power isn't enough when he donates. Then after 10 years of extra training he tells Fat Buu to fix the tournament seeding because he wants all his power against Uub. These are all later statements from Goku. Daizenshuu further elaborates on his mentality. It says his feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest and it says Goku waited for a rematch with Buu above all others. It says elsewhere that he lives to fight the strongest. If we're going with Goku perspectives then it's stacked in favor of Kid Buu.
1) Out of the two fighters available to fight Buu, yes, he was the only one of the two that could. Vegeta couldn't, and that was it out of their options at the time.

2) Everyone would have died if it hadn't been for them before the Genki Dama was even an option, because if it hadn't been for Mr. Satan causing Buu to be expelled, then Vegeta would have been killed, then Goku (who couldn't hold Ssj3), and so on. There was nothing about Goku's statement that says that it was in regards to the Genki Dama.

3) Gohan only donated genki, so that's not remotely telling about how he could have done if he had fought Buu normally. What he donated was only a portion of his total strength.

4) Fellow strongest, meaning Buu himself. It's all the same Buu. From Evil Buu to Gotenks Buu to Gohan Buu and so on, it's all the same Buu.
All your pieces of evidence are over 24 years old. And I cite the original manga as well. You cite Super Buu saga information. I cite Kid Buu saga information which is later. And the big difference here is that when I make claims about what the Kid Buu saga is telling us, I can also cite Daizenshuu, the official Manga guide, to collaborate. And DBS anime/manga now collaborate what Daiz is saying too. You can argue with me as to what the Manga is saying but it's not just me at this point. You're arguing the past quarter century of DB information.
And nothing in the Pure Buu part of the story contradicts Evil Buu being stronger. Nothing. The Daizenshuu's information is both vague (speaking of Buu in general) and also skewed by filler content in the anime. Nothing in the DBS anime/manga says Pure Buu is the strongest (what you've shown as evidence doesn't say as such), and this current V-Jump article is already contradicted by Toriyama's statements, as it says that Bibidi created Buu, when Toriyama established that he didn't. Since that information is faulty, then that puts everything else into question as well. And since the Gohan Buu = Super Saiyan 3 Goku is contradictory to established fact anyway, there's no reason to give it any weight at all.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Regarder » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:04 am

I think interpreting it to mean that the amount of extra power he gained was on par with SS3 makes a lot more sense than saying that SS3 Goku is as strong as Buuhan, because all that means is that SS3 Goku or at least max power SS3 Goku is equal to Gohan. If the latter is true, it completely ruins the story because then there's absolutely zero need to do what they thought was a permanent fusion. Goku's internal thoughts are all "Shit! I might have to fuse with Dende or Satan!", not "Shit! I might have to go all out with SS3!". In the manga when he goes SS3 against even Gotenks Buu he's shitting himself, so it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Even in the anime he's getting his ass kicked and telling Gohan to hurry up so it can't make sense even in the anime continuity.

If SS3 is equal to Gohan then that makes more sense. It still means Goku was bullshitting a bit when scared of Super Buu, but you can at least chalk that up to extenuating factors and things not being quite so dire at that point for him to have to do it and risk max power SS3 when they have the option to reduce his power instead. However, the scene with Buuhan is totally different; if Goku doesn't decide to fight at that point, he might have to fuse forever with someone he thinks might make him weaker. There's no internal question of whether SS3 is enough. Thankfully, "gained power on par with SS3" can be interpreted in one of two ways.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:32 am

A couple things to consider first off I consider it absurd to put goku in buuhans class... I can however put him in between super Buu and buupiccolo ... All right anyways i always found goku's reaction to seeing Gotenks ss3 by telling the supreme Kai that he could do it too curious. He acts as if Gotenks is in the same class as him powerwise. The second thing is the anime filler where Goku briefly fights Buutenks . I could maybe see this goku fights him for a few minutes before Buu gains a tremendous advantage and kills goku

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:39 am

Darkprince410 wrote: 1) Out of the two fighters available to fight Buu, yes, he was the only one of the two that could. Vegeta couldn't, and that was it out of their options at the time.
Vegeta is the one who said it and he's a dead person so purely by context we know being dead isn't it an obstacle. Secondly Goku was also dead just a few minutes ago too. Thirdly Vegeta wishes everyone back to life. There any number of ways Gohan can fight Kid Buu and the very people in this conversation are aware of multiple ways to do so.

And again, If you dislike how I'm presenting this narrative then check the official Manga guide and both versions of DBS. They corroborate this narrative. Daiz says Goku is fellow strongest with Kid Buu. DBS anime tells us Goku is the strongest Saiyan and the strongest after Buu was defeated and it confirms the OP nature of the Genki Dama. DBS manga starts with a recap of how only the Genki Dama could stop Kid Buu and now we have this VJump scan. Even the BoG movie has everyone at their strongest and Vegeta only surpassed Goku when Bulma gets slapped. This is not just my interpretation. It's repeated and corroborated time and time again.
3) Gohan only donated genki, so that's not remotely telling about how he could have done if he had fought Buu normally. What he donated was only a portion of his total strength.
Kid Buu deflecting the Universal Genki Dama shows us he would deflect anything from Gohan because Gohan can't generate anywhere near that level of power by himself.
4) Fellow strongest, meaning Buu himself. It's all the same Buu. From Evil Buu to Gotenks Buu to Gohan Buu and so on, it's all the same Buu.
It's not. Goku salutes Kid Buu as a guy who fought everyone by himself and still went the distance. Goku by contrast views Super Buu as a cheat that resorted to unfair tactics like absorption. He also never salutes Fat Buu in this way even though he's lying down right there. That section of Daizenshuu is dedicated to the destruction of Buu and in that section only one Buu is destroyed and Fat Buu is still alive. You can't deny that it's identifying Kid Buu specifically because it's literally identifying him by mentioning specific details.

Why is it the fandom and various DB media have been able to identify specific versions of Buu for decades but you're apparently insisting that we can't identify Kid Buu specifically here? That's a serious question because you're using a double standard. What do we need to do to specify a specific version of Buu? Having a picture of Goku saluting him isn't enough. Saying Goku defeated him isn't enough. Putting an entire section in Daiz about how he was destroyed by a Genki Dama isn't enough. You just refuse to acknowledge anything the specifies Buu but you're fine if it identifies any other version of Buu elsewhere. That's a double standard.
And nothing in the Pure Buu part of the story contradicts Evil Buu being stronger. Nothing. The Daizenshuu's information is both vague (speaking of Buu in general) and also skewed by filler content in the anime. Nothing in the DBS anime/manga says Pure Buu is the strongest (what you've shown as evidence doesn't say as such), and this current V-Jump article is already contradicted by Toriyama's statements, as it says that Bibidi created Buu, when Toriyama established that he didn't. Since that information is faulty, then that puts everything else into question as well. And since the Gohan Buu = Super Saiyan 3 Goku is contradictory to established fact anyway, there's no reason to give it any weight at all.
First of all I'm citing Daizenshuu's manga guide so filler information need not apply. Second of all the VJump article is merely repeating the Bibidi information from the manga so there's no problem because the original manga is wrong there too.

And yes, there *is* evidence in the Kid Buu saga but you refuse to acknowledge it. I've explained that evidence multiple times now and you keep saying it doesn't exist. I say everyone ignore Gohan. I say only Goku can fight Kid Buu. I point out that the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power isn't enough. I point out the Universal Genki Dama can be deflected by Kid Buu. I point out Goku saying without Satan and Good Buu everyone dies. I point out how Goku trains for 10 years and still wants his full power agains Uub.

Your answer to all those pieces don't count or don't mean what I say they do. To be blunt that's just your opinion and we're both just random fan's. You can say they don't mean what I say they mean but in the end, your opinion carries no weigh. That's why I cite Daizenshuu, the official Manga guide. So if I say it means something, you can ignore me. If you say it means something I can ignore you. But the official Manga guide carries more weight than you and I. It's not a matter of your opinion at this point. This is further emphasized with how BoG, DBS manga, DBS anime and even Kai all reinforce the Kid Buu and Goku narrative.

If you say the manga never said something but the official Manga guide, DBS manga, DBS anime, BoG and Kai all say otherwise, who should we believe? You or all those sources? To be blunt it's your opinion against 25 years of additional information.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:55 am

MisterGuyMan wrote:Your answer to all those pieces don't count or don't mean what I say they do. To be blunt that's just your opinion and we're both just random fan's. You can say they don't mean what I say they mean but in the end, your opinion carries no weigh. That's why I cite Daizenshuu, the official Manga guide. So if I say it means something, you can ignore me. If you say it means something I can ignore you. But the official Manga guide carries more weight than you and I. It's not a matter of your opinion at this point. This is further emphasized with how BoG, DBS manga, DBS anime and even Kai all reinforce the Kid Buu and Goku narrative.
It's not a matter of my opinion though. It's a matter of your interpretations of vague statements within the Daizenshuu, the DBS manga and anime, etc all in comparison to concrete statements within the manga discounting your points. I've readily established why the points you bring up aren't valid in supporting Pure Buu being stronger (both in this situation and the last), while you've not given valid reason to discount the statements I brought proving that he was weaker. Your "discrediting" them has been that your interpretations of things said/done later mean that the earlier ones don't hold weight, when my interpretation of those exact same things allow Pure Buu to still be weaker and there be no contradiction outside of what happens within filler content or related to filler content.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Speedster » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:15 pm

V-Jump [February 2019]
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079579748899016705
HERMS TRANSLATION
The Grant Kaioshin was ruler of the four Kaioshins who used to exist. However, he was absorbed by Bibidi’s creation, Majin Buu. Even now he remains inside Majin Buu, and it seems the Galactic Patrol need his power…

MAJIN BUU’S ABSORPTION ABILITY
Majin Buu (first appearance): He has a relatively gentle personality due to absorbing Grand Kaioshin, but acts childishly.
Majin Buu (Piccolo, Gotenks absorbed): He powers up by gaining Piccolo’s intelligence and Gotenks’ strength! He can also now fight strategically.
Majin Buu (Son Gohan absorbed): He catches Gohan off-guard and absorbs him, gaining power on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. His clothing also changes into a dougi-style.
As far as the above translation is concerned the statement is ambiguous as there can be two interpretations:
1. Buu, by absorbing Mystic Gohan, gained enough power to reach the level of SSJ3 Goku. In other words, Buuhan=SSJ3 Goku
2. Buu, by absorbing Mystic Gohan, gained (added) power that was equal/equivalent to that of SSJ3 Goku. In other words Mystic Gohan=SSJ3 Goku

Personally, I have always supported that Kid Buu> regular Super Buu and that SSJ3 Goku is at least on par with Mystic Gohan and that the whole argument that was putting Mystic Gohan as leagues above SSJ3 Goku was a load of rubbish. So I have no issues at all with the interpretation no.2. However, even the first interpretation makes sense, especially considering that the anime flat out stated multiple times (and, yes, in Japanese) that kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu (episodes 279 and 280) and there is nothing really contradicting it. You can easily claim that SSJ3 Goku got stronger during his fight with kid Buu. That Goku, as per usual, broke his limits and pushed his SSJ3 to new levels, especially given that he wasn’t perfectly used to using that form and never actually pushed it that far before in a fight. After all, in Dragonball Super, against Beerus, Goku did push SSJG to higher and higher levels throughout the fight and even Toriyama said the following (source):
Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.
And this whole notion of Saiyans breaking their limits during tough fights and becoming stronger/improving while IN THE SAME FORM (not through a transformation) has been a recurrent theme in Dragonball Super. After Goku pushed SSJG to higher levels, we then had episode 39 where it was stated by Vegeta and Krillin that improving and getting stronger throughout a fight is a quality of the Saiyans that Goku has relied upon while facing more powerful foes in the past. It was demonstrated further with Ikari Trunks getting more powerful versus Black, Zamasu, Merged Zamasu and again in ToP with Goku keep improving and doing better with the same (or even lesser) forms against SSJ Kale, Kefla and a Jiren who kept increasing the level of power he was putting out, etc. Heck the whole Broly movie is about a Saiyan, who keeps rapidly increasing his power to match and surpass the power of his fighting opponents.

So all that argument by some people in the community that SSJ3 Goku’s power was fixed and constant throughout the entirety of the Buu arc, or that Goku can’t “magically” get stronger during the fight is thrown out of window both by the creator of the series himself as well as the entire series that followed the events of the Buu arc. What is more is that, even in the original manga, Toriyama made it quite clear that Goku was actually breaking his limits in order to go toe to toe against kid Buu – an opponent that moments earlier produced an attack that Goku flat out said that he and Vegeta couldn’t stop (and ran away from) and ended up destroying the Earth and killing their sons. Here is what Vegeta said in chapter 510 about Goku while watching Goku fighting kid Buu:
But, he’s different […] He doesn’t fight to win. He fights so that he absolutely won’t lose, continually overcoming his limits…!
So Vegeta says that Goku overcomes his limits and improves while fighting opponents who can push him to his very limits. It is not a stretch to say that Vegeta was actually witnessing that happening once again at that very moment i.e. Goku rose once again to the occasion, this time by pushing himself to new heights in order to go toe to toe against kid Buu.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:01 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:It's not a matter of my opinion though. It's a matter of your interpretations of vague statements within the Daizenshuu, the DBS manga and anime, etc all in comparison to concrete statements within the manga discounting your points. I've readily established why the points you bring up aren't valid in supporting Pure Buu being stronger (both in this situation and the last), while you've not given valid reason to discount the statements I brought proving that he was weaker. Your "discrediting" them has been that your interpretations of things said/done later mean that the earlier ones don't hold weight, when my interpretation of those exact same things allow Pure Buu to still be weaker and there be no contradiction outside of what happens within filler content or related to filler content.
No. You're outright ignoring later information. I say the Kid Buu saga establishes Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest. That's where we disagree. Where you go wrong though is that I support my narrative with clear and undeniable statements from other sources.

1. Daizenshuu outright labels Goku as fellow strongest with Kid Buu. Your only reply to this hinges on an impossible double standard where you are forced to argue that it's impossible to talk about a specific version of Buu even if we clearly identify the specific version. So what's vague about this? Goku is fellow strongest with some one at least and Gohan isn't even in the chapter let alone relevant to what's going on.

2. Daizenshuu also labels the version of Buu that Goku defeated as the strongest in the universe. You again rely on the same double standard where you allow yourself to specify which version of Buu can be identifie but no one else can. This isn't vague. It clear. You need to rely on an impossible double standard to try to dismiss it.

3. I argue Goku's statement after the fight establishes that the Genki Dama was the only thing that could stop Kid Buu. I cite the DBS manga which says Earth faced certain extinction except the Genki Dama saved it. That's not vague. It's spelled out clearly.

4. DBS manga unquestionably establishes in the ToP, that the Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan when 8 people who are all under SSB with only 3 exceptions, combine their power into a blast stronger than 20xSSB. This is a direct fact so you don't actually have an argument for this a far as I'm aware. This is not vague. It's very clearly established.

5. VJump publishes the DBS manga and it now establishes, regardless of how you read it, that Goku must be stronger than Super Buu. You just ignore this too. This is again not vague. It's spelled out clearly.

You're also misrepresenting my position. I'm not ignoring what happens in the Super Buu arcs. I interprete them differently. The difference is that I can cite other sources to reinforce my interpretation whereas you ignore all future sources that disagree with you. You say my sources are vague but read them yourself. There's no way to read Vjump's scan to conclude that Goku is weaker than Super Buu. Or to watch the ToP and think Gohan is stronger than a Genki Dama that he donates to. That's just you ignoring material.

And I'm sorry but your insistence that it's impossible to specify which Version of Buu we're talking about based on context makes no sense and is a blatant double standard. Anytime it helps you, statements apply to specific versions of Buu. Anytime it doesn't, you insist it's "Buu in general". That's a blatant double standard.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:47 pm

Idk some of the new stuff about 20 year old material is iffy ...I liked it better when super buu and Gotenks were more powerful than kid Buu Goku and fat buu

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:48 pm

Speedster wrote:You can easily claim that SSJ3 Goku got stronger during his fight with kid Buu.
It could be that too. Kinda fits with Toriyama’s thought about Saiyan potential. When Goku and Vegeta decided to fight on their own, that resolve made them stronger during the process. Though, Dragon Ball still goes back and forth on this matter, specially in this new movie.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Ssjcell » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:42 am

I have a lot of problems with this . First off it's wrong flat out and I can prove it ok buuhan is stronger than Gohan . How can good equal Gohan AND buuhan?
That doesn't make any sense proving how asinine this is. It's not even like buuhan is close to Gohan he is at least 2 times as strong probably stronger but why not be conservative it doesn't hurt my argument whatsoever. And come on Goku wouldn't fight super Buu on any level unless he was defending himself or the actual planet. Prove me wrong how does Goku equal both buuhan and Gohan it doesn't make any sense. This was like a dubhead who released this I know it's in Japanese but the only way this is explainable is someone watched the funi dub loved the line where Goku said Buu is twice as fast as he was before and book vscan. It's explainable like that but in universe it's impossible prove me wrong without circular logic I dare you.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:40 am

Ssjcell wrote:I have a lot of problems with this . First off it's wrong flat out and I can prove it ok buuhan is stronger than Gohan . How can good equal Gohan AND buuhan?
That doesn't make any sense proving how asinine this is. It's not even like buuhan is close to Gohan he is at least 2 times as strong probably stronger but why not be conservative it doesn't hurt my argument whatsoever. And come on Goku wouldn't fight super Buu on any level unless he was defending himself or the actual planet. Prove me wrong how does Goku equal both buuhan and Gohan it doesn't make any sense. This was like a dubhead who released this I know it's in Japanese but the only way this is explainable is someone watched the funi dub loved the line where Goku said Buu is twice as fast as he was before and book vscan. It's explainable like that but in universe it's impossible prove me wrong without circular logic I dare you.
I barely can read your post. If I understood correctly you want a proof that Goku is equal to Gohan-Boo? The original manga doesn’t touch this subject, but Toriyama has been repeatedly claiming that Saiyans can grow stronger in the middle of a fight. It’s possible that Goku didn’t test the limits of his SS3 power. The mindset of relying on fusions was holding him back too. Vegeta also began to fight for something else and that feeling consistently makes him stronger.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Ssjcell » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:06 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:I have a lot of problems with this . First off it's wrong flat out and I can prove it ok buuhan is stronger than Gohan . How can good equal Gohan AND buuhan?
That doesn't make any sense proving how asinine this is. It's not even like buuhan is close to Gohan he is at least 2 times as strong probably stronger but why not be conservative it doesn't hurt my argument whatsoever. And come on Goku wouldn't fight super Buu on any level unless he was defending himself or the actual planet. Prove me wrong how does Goku equal both buuhan and Gohan it doesn't make any sense. This was like a dubhead who released this I know it's in Japanese but the only way this is explainable is someone watched the funi dub loved the line where Goku said Buu is twice as fast as he was before and book vscan. It's explainable like that but in universe it's impossible prove me wrong without circular logic I dare you.
I barely can read your post. If I understood correctly you want a proof that Goku is equal to Gohan-Boo? The original manga doesn’t touch this subject, but Toriyama has been repeatedly claiming that Saiyans can grow stronger in the middle of a fight. It’s possible that Goku didn’t test the limits of his SS3 power. The mindset of relying on fusions was holding him back too. Vegeta also began to fight for something else and that feeling consistently makes him stronger.
The post is saying goku is equal to buuhan and Gohan which is impossible considering buuhan is much stronger. It invalidates the post and there were spelling errors cause of autocorrect.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:34 pm

MisterGuyMan wrote:
1. Daizenshuu outright labels Goku as fellow strongest with Kid Buu. Your only reply to this hinges on an impossible double standard where you are forced to argue that it's impossible to talk about a specific version of Buu even if we clearly identify the specific version. So what's vague about this? Goku is fellow strongest with some one at least and Gohan isn't even in the chapter let alone relevant to what's going on.

2. Daizenshuu also labels the version of Buu that Goku defeated as the strongest in the universe. You again rely on the same double standard where you allow yourself to specify which version of Buu can be identifie but no one else can. This isn't vague. It clear. You need to rely on an impossible double standard to try to dismiss it.

3. I argue Goku's statement after the fight establishes that the Genki Dama was the only thing that could stop Kid Buu. I cite the DBS manga which says Earth faced certain extinction except the Genki Dama saved it. That's not vague. It's spelled out clearly.

4. DBS manga unquestionably establishes in the ToP, that the Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan when 8 people who are all under SSB with only 3 exceptions, combine their power into a blast stronger than 20xSSB. This is a direct fact so you don't actually have an argument for this a far as I'm aware. This is not vague. It's very clearly established.

5. VJump publishes the DBS manga and it now establishes, regardless of how you read it, that Goku must be stronger than Super Buu. You just ignore this too. This is again not vague. It's spelled out clearly.

You're also misrepresenting my position. I'm not ignoring what happens in the Super Buu arcs. I interprete them differently. The difference is that I can cite other sources to reinforce my interpretation whereas you ignore all future sources that disagree with you. You say my sources are vague but read them yourself. There's no way to read Vjump's scan to conclude that Goku is weaker than Super Buu. Or to watch the ToP and think Gohan is stronger than a Genki Dama that he donates to. That's just you ignoring material.

And I'm sorry but your insistence that it's impossible to specify which Version of Buu we're talking about based on context makes no sense and is a blatant double standard. Anytime it helps you, statements apply to specific versions of Buu. Anytime it doesn't, you insist it's "Buu in general". That's a blatant double standard.
1/2) It's not an impossible double standard, especially in the second entry, which can only logically be read as all being about Majin Buu in general. No specifics to be discerned amongst what is said, just very generalized statements that fit Buu entirely.

3) The DBS manga can easily be interpreted, and more logically so, as again speaking of Buu in general. Buu is the mightiest enemy overall at the time, and his actions throughout the arc brought the Earth's population to the brink of extinction, and Goku eventually defeated him with the Genki Dama. Since it's all still the same Buu, from the Pure Evil Buu to Pure Buu, it cannot be extracted from what else is said to pinpoint that it is referring just to Pure Buu.

4) I addressed this in our last argument on the matter. It's a Toei-ism, and they've skewed Goku's personal feats to extremes many times before when it doesn't coincide with what Toriyama wrote or established.

5) And said article is contradicted by Toriyama (the whole "Bibidi created Buu" bit that the article put out). Since this is a retcon from the manga, any source citing it afterward is of questionable veracity at best.

I don't know where you're coming from with me taking a double standard when it comes to statements based on context to determine specific forms of Buu or not, because the statements I've been using establish themselves based on exact time. Rou Kaioushin says Goku and Gohan can't beat "this current Majin Buu", meaning Gotenks Buu (the Buu at the time). Goku says he and Vegeta have weakened Buu considerably, but are still no match for him is in response to Vegeta saying for them to escape right then, after having reverted Buu to regular Evil Buu. Again, setting in stone exactly which Buu is being referred to. There's no vagueness about it because the context is clearly there. In your examples though, again, everything can be interpreted to be Buu in general, and, in turn, allows for Evil Buu to be stronger and perfectly fit the entire narrative of Pure Buu being a weaker Buu overall, and perfect for Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who was weaker than Gohan and Gotenks.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Speedster » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:31 pm

Ssjcell wrote:The post is saying goku is equal to buuhan and Gohan which is impossible considering buuhan is much stronger.
You are clearly misunderstanding what is being discussed. Vjump doesn’t state that Buuhan=Gohan. It says that Buu, by absorbing Gohan, gained power equivalent to that of SSJ3 Goku. The wording is therefore not clear-cut. One person can interpret it as meaning that Buu, by absorbing Gohan, became as powerful as SSJ3 Goku (in which case it would mean that Buuhan=SSJ3 Goku) while another person can interpret it as meaning that Buu added to his own power, Mystic Gohan’s power that was equal to that of SSJ3 Goku (in other words it means Buuhan=Buucolo+SSJ3 Goku and since Buuhan=Buucolo+Mystic Gohan it follows that Mystic Gohan=SS3 Goku).

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:39 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Speedster wrote:You can easily claim that SSJ3 Goku got stronger during his fight with kid Buu.
It could be that too. Kinda fits with Toriyama’s thought about Saiyan potential. When Goku and Vegeta decided to fight on their own, that resolve made them stronger during the process. Though, Dragon Ball still goes back and forth on this matter, specially in this new movie.
Why are you attempting to retroactively connect recent information to 20-year old scenes that were clearly not drawn with that information in mind?

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Ssjcell » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Speedster wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:The post is saying goku is equal to buuhan and Gohan which is impossible considering buuhan is much stronger.
You are clearly misunderstanding what is being discussed. Vjump doesn’t state that Buuhan=Gohan. It says that Buu, by absorbing Gohan, gained power equivalent to that of SSJ3 Goku. The wording is therefore not clear-cut. One person can interpret it as meaning that Buu, by absorbing Gohan, became as powerful as SSJ3 Goku (in which case it would mean that Buuhan=SSJ3 Goku) while another person can interpret it as meaning that Buu added to his own power, Mystic Gohan’s power that was equal to that of SSJ3 Goku (in other words it means Buuhan=Buucolo+SSJ3 Goku and since Buuhan=Buucolo+Mystic Gohan it follows that Mystic Gohan=SS3 Goku).
Alright I can buy goku = Gohan but buuhan would shatter goku's world real fast , thanks for the explanation I guess

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:43 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Speedster wrote:You can easily claim that SSJ3 Goku got stronger during his fight with kid Buu.
It could be that too. Kinda fits with Toriyama’s thought about Saiyan potential. When Goku and Vegeta decided to fight on their own, that resolve made them stronger during the process. Though, Dragon Ball still goes back and forth on this matter, specially in this new movie.
Why are you attempting to retroactively connect recent information to 20-year old scenes that were clearly not drawn with that information in mind?
Because this is how they seemingly interpret their work now. Besides, how do you know he hadn’t already thought about it when crafting that scene?

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: It could be that too. Kinda fits with Toriyama’s thought about Saiyan potential. When Goku and Vegeta decided to fight on their own, that resolve made them stronger during the process. Though, Dragon Ball still goes back and forth on this matter, specially in this new movie.
Why are you attempting to retroactively connect recent information to 20-year old scenes that were clearly not drawn with that information in mind?
Because this is how they seemingly interpret their work now. Besides, how do you know he hadn’t already thought about it when crafting that scene?
Which doesn't matter if you're discussing the Boo arc in isolation.

I don't, which is why there's no point in discussing extra material and simply discuss the facts actually present in the manga.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:43 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Why are you attempting to retroactively connect recent information to 20-year old scenes that were clearly not drawn with that information in mind?
Because this is how they seemingly interpret their work now. Besides, how do you know he hadn’t already thought about it when crafting that scene?
Which doesn't matter if you're discussing the Boo arc in isolation.

I don't, which is why there's no point in discussing extra material and simply discuss the facts actually present in the manga.
That sounds like a death of the author approach, which I don't really subscribe to.

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