Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

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MisterGuyMan
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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:55 pm

Darkprince410 wrote: 1/2) It's not an impossible double standard, especially in the second entry, which can only logically be read as all being about Majin Buu in general. No specifics to be discerned amongst what is said, just very generalized statements that fit Buu entirely.

3) The DBS manga can easily be interpreted, and more logically so, as again speaking of Buu in general. Buu is the mightiest enemy overall at the time, and his actions throughout the arc brought the Earth's population to the brink of extinction, and Goku eventually defeated him with the Genki Dama. Since it's all still the same Buu, from the Pure Evil Buu to Pure Buu, it cannot be extracted from what else is said to pinpoint that it is referring just to Pure Buu.

4) I addressed this in our last argument on the matter. It's a Toei-ism, and they've skewed Goku's personal feats to extremes many times before when it doesn't coincide with what Toriyama wrote or established.

5) And said article is contradicted by Toriyama (the whole "Bibidi created Buu" bit that the article put out). Since this is a retcon from the manga, any source citing it afterward is of questionable veracity at best.

I don't know where you're coming from with me taking a double standard when it comes to statements based on context to determine specific forms of Buu or not, because the statements I've been using establish themselves based on exact time. Rou Kaioushin says Goku and Gohan can't beat "this current Majin Buu", meaning Gotenks Buu (the Buu at the time). Goku says he and Vegeta have weakened Buu considerably, but are still no match for him is in response to Vegeta saying for them to escape right then, after having reverted Buu to regular Evil Buu. Again, setting in stone exactly which Buu is being referred to. There's no vagueness about it because the context is clearly there. In your examples though, again, everything can be interpreted to be Buu in general, and, in turn, allows for Evil Buu to be stronger and perfectly fit the entire narrative of Pure Buu being a weaker Buu overall, and perfect for Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who was weaker than Gohan and Gotenks.
1. You're proving my point. Goku defeating Buu logically CANNOT be about Maijin Buu in general. It's SPECIFICALLY about one and only one Buu. That's the impossible double standard. Even when an excerpt specifies one very specific version of Buu, you just ignore how it and talk about Buu in general. Then we also have to ignore how Daizenshuu says Goku is fellow strongest with some one as he salutes Kid Buu. We don't need to interprete the Daiz text because the text itself answers any ambiguity in another excerpt.

2. The DBS manga can no longer be interpreted any way to have Gohan stronger than Goku or Kid Buu anymore. This Goku/Buuhan scan is specific to the DBS manga and it's published by VJump, the publication that releases the DBS manga. VJump is also owned by Shueisha, owner the DB manga rights.

3. You're relying on an Ad Honimem fallacy. "Toei did it therefore they're wrong." That's your general argument. It doesn't actually matter if Toei did it because Toriyama recognizes the DBS anime (and also the manga) as continuations of his story. So even if you dislike how Toei handles the material, their material still counts. And dismissing it as a Toei thing also doesn't change the fact that the anime in this instance is merely agreeing with what Daizenshuu said decades earlier and what the DBS manga is saying now.

4. This isn't an issue because all the scan is doing is citing the manga. The manga said Bibidi created Buu so that's what it's saying. And these kinds of arguments never hold much weight anyway. Your argument is "This source made a mistake therefore we can dismiss anything else it might have said." That's an impossible standard. Einstein made mistakes. Darwin made mistakes. So using this kind of logic, Relativity and Evolution are questionable at best.

The impossible double standard is actually readily apparent. Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. That's specific context. It can only be talking about Kid Buu. Using your own words, Goku defeating Buu is "setting in stone exactly which Buu is being referred to." You read that as "Buu in general" when it can't get any more clear than that. So why are you allowed to use context to specify specific verisons of Buu but somehow "Gokud defeated Buu" can be used to describe every Buu ever? That's the double standard. You get to specify which Buu. No one else can. Same applies to Goku saluting Kid Buu as his fellow strongest. Doesn't count. Why?

As already mentioned for your other points, Old Kaio Shin never sees Goku fight and when Goku says he can't beat Super Buu, he's not at full power and he has multiple disadvantages. By contrast the scan in VJump just confirms that for the DBS manga, specifically mentions Buuhan and Goku being on par. That's specific right? The anime ToP arc specifcally establishes that the Genki Dama must be stronger than Gohan which puts Kid Buu above Gohan as well. That's very specific too. Daiz has a picture of Goku saying his feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest. That specifically talking about Goku being one of two strongest. There's no way to get around that either. And all those are very clearly stated and they're all reiterations of what is stated in the Kid Buu saga of the OG manga. That's the strength of my argument. I can tell you what I think until I'm blue in the face but the fact that the manga guide and both DBS versions confirm what I believe is what makes my argument all the more compelling. Like it or not, this is the official narrative.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:29 am

If Goku is now apparently over twice as powerful as SS3 Gotenks, but his SS2 is equal to Majin Vegeta, then shouldn't SS2 Majin Vegeta be massively more powerful than SS Gotenks? Instead of the power being like this:


Boohan>Bootenks>>Gohan>SS3 Gotenks>=Super Boo>>>SS3 Goku>=Fat Boo>=SS Gotenks>>>>Majin Vegeta

Like I thought it was, if SS3 Goku is equal to Boohan, wouldn't Majin Vegeta be really close to Fat Boo? Wouldn't it look like this now:

SS3 Goku=Boohan>Bootenks>>Gohan>SS3 Gotenks>=Super Boo>>Majin Vegeta>=Fat Boo>=SS Gotenks

?

Isn't there a statement in the manga saying that they thought SS1 Gotenks had a chance to beat either Fat Boo or Super Boo? Because, SS1 Goku and SS1 Vegeta would be stronger than SS1 Gotenks, and SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta would be more than twice as powerful as SS1 Gotenks. If we're going by this, then Majin Vegeta should actually be able to beat Fat Boo and hold off Super Boo for a time.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:37 am

MisterGuyMan wrote:1. You're proving my point. Goku defeating Buu logically CANNOT be about Maijin Buu in general. It's SPECIFICALLY about one and only one Buu. That's the impossible double standard. Even when an excerpt specifies one very specific version of Buu, you just ignore how it and talk about Buu in general. Then we also have to ignore how Daizenshuu says Goku is fellow strongest with some one as he salutes Kid Buu. We don't need to interprete the Daiz text because the text itself answers any ambiguity in another excerpt.
No, because in the very same sentence, it is saying that the younger generation failed to accomplish what Goku ended up doing (i.e. destroying Buu), thus it is speaking of Buu in general. You say that the sentence is talking about different points, but it's all talking about the same chain of events involving the same Buu. As for the fellow strongest, a weakened and tired Super Saiyan Goku is now the strongest? If he's acknowledging Pure Buu as the fellow strongest (by your reasoning), then he is the fellow strongest at that very point, meaning he was stronger as a weakened regular Super Saiyan than he was a Super Saiyan 3 earlier.
2. The DBS manga can no longer be interpreted any way to have Gohan stronger than Goku or Kid Buu anymore. This Goku/Buuhan scan is specific to the DBS manga and it's published by VJump, the publication that releases the DBS manga. VJump is also owned by Shueisha, owner the DB manga rights.
By this reasoning, we have to dismiss the DBS manga entirely. The V-Jump article contains faulty information, and therefore the article is of dubious accuracy. If you're adhering that much to the relationship between the V-Jump article and the DBS manga, then the manga is of similar dubious accuracy.
4. This isn't an issue because all the scan is doing is citing the manga. The manga said Bibidi created Buu so that's what it's saying. And these kinds of arguments never hold much weight anyway. Your argument is "This source made a mistake therefore we can dismiss anything else it might have said." That's an impossible standard. Einstein made mistakes. Darwin made mistakes. So using this kind of logic, Relativity and Evolution are questionable at best.
It immediately puts it into question though. If you have an article or some other piece of work that starts off with an inaccurate fact, what reason would one have to accept the rest of the article blindly? It loses credibility in the situation that it's in.
The impossible double standard is actually readily apparent. Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. That's specific context. It can only be talking about Kid Buu. Using your own words, Goku defeating Buu is "setting in stone exactly which Buu is being referred to." You read that as "Buu in general" when it can't get any more clear than that. So why are you allowed to use context to specify specific verisons of Buu but somehow "Gokud defeated Buu" can be used to describe every Buu ever? That's the double standard. You get to specify which Buu. No one else can. Same applies to Goku saluting Kid Buu as his fellow strongest. Doesn't count. Why?
Because, as pointed out many times before, it speaks of Goku succeeding in doing what the younger generation failed to do. Since they did not fight Pure Buu, then that means that it has to be speaking of Buu in general. The sentence is all about Buu in general, not broken up into multiple sections as you've described it.
As already mentioned for your other points, Old Kaio Shin never sees Goku fight and when Goku says he can't beat Super Buu, he's not at full power and he has multiple disadvantages. By contrast the scan in VJump just confirms that for the DBS manga, specifically mentions Buuhan and Goku being on par. That's specific right? The anime ToP arc specifcally establishes that the Genki Dama must be stronger than Gohan which puts Kid Buu above Gohan as well. That's very specific too. Daiz has a picture of Goku saying his feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest. That specifically talking about Goku being one of two strongest. There's no way to get around that either. And all those are very clearly stated and they're all reiterations of what is stated in the Kid Buu saga of the OG manga. That's the strength of my argument. I can tell you what I think until I'm blue in the face but the fact that the manga guide and both DBS versions confirm what I believe is what makes my argument all the more compelling. Like it or not, this is the official narrative.
Goku accepts it without question though, and he knows the limits of his power, meaning he realizes he can't beat Gotenks Buu. When Goku says he can't defeat Evil Buu, he's speaking of once they escape and reach normal size. He already knows Evil Buu's strength from before they even went into him (having sensed it from Kaioushin's planet) and he knows his limits, so there are no "disadvantages" in play.

V-Jump article is of dubious accuracy given it starts with faulty information. If we're going by databook guides and pictures associated with it, Dragon Ball Forever (a manga guide) establishes that all removed absorptions weakened Buu, and it shows Vegeta removing Mr. Buu for the illustration of this fact. Therefore, that removal of Mr. Buu weakened Buu, and that's supported by Goku's comment on the matter upon seeing Pure Buu.

There's far more concrete information supporting Pure Buu being among the weakest of the Buus than there is for him being the strongest

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Dagon » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:05 am

theherodjl wrote: But if we're seriously going to justify V Jump's claim on SSJ3 Goku = Boohan then I just subscribe to the idea that Goku gained a lot more power from being brought back to life. Its worth noting that Vegeta tried fighting Pure Boo in base form after being wished back to life so maybe there's some kind of bullshit reasoning that full blood Saiyans receive Zenkais from returning from the dead.
On the one hand we got Dragon Box booklets saying Vegeta in episode 268 powered up by "returning to life," however he wasn't actually "alive" yet, he simply returned to the living world via baba. He wasn't revived until the fight with Kid Buu. As for fighting in base form, he had already fought Kid Buu before so he would be low on energy. His base form fight was worse of a beatdown than his SSJ2 fight.

As for the topic, I can deal with Goku progressively powering up throughout the Buu Arc, but to say Buuhan = SSJ3 Goku or Ultimate Gohan = SSJ3 Goku as Goku's power level stood at the start of the arc, is ridiculous.
1. Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than he is.
2. When Super Buu emerges for the first time, his power is greater than Fat Buu, and this is his suppressed level.
3. Trunks says base Gotenks will be an even match for this suppressed Super Buu. They didn't know he was suppressed but that level is still above Fat Buu and they say normal Gotenks will match him.
4. SSJ3 Goku could have killed fat Buu but he did have a bit of trouble. It wasn't an absolute no-sell, so they are somewhat rivals at least.
5. Fat Buu is far above SSJ2 Vegeta and thus SSJ2 Goku from the beginning of the arc. Thus he's somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku.
6. Combine the above and you could come to the conclusion that as their powers stood in the first half of the arc, SSJ3 Goku, Suppressed Super Buu, and post-RoSaT base Gotenks are all in the same ballpark.
7. Then on top of that, Gotenks turns SSJ3 and matches Super Buu. I believe some guidebooks state they had equal powers. This would mean Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are in the realm of about 400x SSJ3 Goku from the start of the arc, perhaps more.

So please tell me how Goku rose in power by so much throughout the arc. He could have possibly increased by being revived by Old Kai, but even then he doesn't dare fight even base form Super Buu without fusion. So if you want to say SSJ3 Goku > base Super Buu, then you will need to accept that this wasn't possible until after Super Buu turned into Kid Buu.
I'd go as far as to say SSJ3 Goku at the start of Battle of Gods could possibly equal Buuhan but the narrative requires SSJ3 Goku be weaker than Buuhan when Buuhan is actually active.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:28 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:No, because in the very same sentence, it is saying that the younger generation failed to accomplish what Goku ended up doing (i.e. destroying Buu), thus it is speaking of Buu in general. You say that the sentence is talking about different points, but it's all talking about the same chain of events involving the same Buu. As for the fellow strongest, a weakened and tired Super Saiyan Goku is now the strongest? If he's acknowledging Pure Buu as the fellow strongest (by your reasoning), then he is the fellow strongest at that very point, meaning he was stronger as a weakened regular Super Saiyan than he was a Super Saiyan 3 earlier.
Your entire first argument is based on bad logic inherently. This morning I wanted to get a red car but in the end I bought a blue car. So using your logic I cannot be referring to different cars because I talk about cars "in the very same sentence." That argument makes zero sense. Sentences have parts. Sentences can have separate clauses and those clauses can refer to different nouns. "Goku defeated Buu" refers to one noun in one clause. "Goku wanted the next generation to beat Buu" refers to anouth noun in a different clause. Your argument is entirely based on a wrong understanding of grammar.

Your second argument is also faulty because it's just comparing Kid Buu and Goku as fellow strongest. Obviously normal SS Goku is nowhere near Kid Buu levels so your interpretation isn't what it's trying to say. And if you want a third source from Daizenshuu then it says Goku waits for Kid Buu above all else so it's not talking about the exhausted Goku because Goku wants a full fight.
By this reasoning, we have to dismiss the DBS manga entirely. The V-Jump article contains faulty information, and therefore the article is of dubious accuracy. If you're adhering that much to the relationship between the V-Jump article and the DBS manga, then the manga is of similar dubious accuracy.
No we don't. This is an either/or fallacy on your part. "If a source has one piece of faulty information then the entire source can be dismissed on all points." That's your argument. And the original manga won't pass this test either so stop trying to hold this impossible standard. All the VJump article is guilty of is citing the original manga here which is a point in its favor because it was the original manga that said Bibidi created Buu.
It immediately puts it into question though. If you have an article or some other piece of work that starts off with an inaccurate fact, what reason would one have to accept the rest of the article blindly? It loses credibility in the situation that it's in.
So we can dismiss the original manga then because it starts with a piece of information that is wrong:
Image
That's from the first chapter of DB. Shen Long isn't the god of all dragons since Parunga and the Super Dragon Balls are stronger and he can't grant any wish. So using your logic, the entire manga, is questionable as a source. This is an impossible standard you're using. I could also discard anything you say because I'm sure, as an imperfect human, you have made mistakes too.
Because, as pointed out many times before, it speaks of Goku succeeding in doing what the younger generation failed to do. Since they did not fight Pure Buu, then that means that it has to be speaking of Buu in general. The sentence is all about Buu in general, not broken up into multiple sections as you've described it.
You can keep pointing this out but your point is still based on erroneous assumptions about grammar. Different clauses in different parts of a sentence can and do refer to different nouns. Your entire argument hinges on the faulty assumption that a noun has to be the same each time it's used. That's just wrong. Here's an example that proves my point:
This morning I wanted to get a red car but in the end I bought a blue car.
Goku accepts it without question though, and he knows the limits of his power, meaning he realizes he can't beat Gotenks Buu. When Goku says he can't defeat Evil Buu, he's speaking of once they escape and reach normal size. He already knows Evil Buu's strength from before they even went into him (having sensed it from Kaioushin's planet) and he knows his limits, so there are no "disadvantages" in play.
If you want to cite Goku as an all knowing source then Goku himself says earlier that Buu's power is like a lie. He also has no idea if he'll return to normal size and never indicates any level of suspicion that he will regain his size. Finally, even if they go out and are able to fight Buu, Buu's can still just reabsorb everyone anyway which you keep ignoring. I proved that this was a concern for the Saiyans first and foremost because they opted to save everyone rather than destroy Buu as Vegito and the first thing they did after escaping was to hide everyone.
V-Jump article is of dubious accuracy given it starts with faulty information. If we're going by databook guides and pictures associated with it, Dragon Ball Forever (a manga guide) establishes that all removed absorptions weakened Buu, and it shows Vegeta removing Mr. Buu for the illustration of this fact. Therefore, that removal of Mr. Buu weakened Buu, and that's supported by Goku's comment on the matter upon seeing Pure Buu.
That interpretation is wrong though because removing Fat Buu resulted in an immediate power increase on to Buff Buu. A simpler interpretation is that removing people from Buuhan weakened Buu and that picture would fall under that time frame. And there's also the issue about how Daizenshuu specifically names Toriyama as the author and I'm citing what is the official manga guide. I'm not saying all guides are the same here. I'm citing the official guide as recognized by Toriyama.
There's far more concrete information supporting Pure Buu being among the weakest of the Buus than there is for him being the strongest
No there isn't. The original manga can be interpreted to support Goku and Kid Buu being the clear strongest. You just refuse to acknowledge that such a narrative is possible. That's fine because at this point it's your interpretation vs mine and we're just fine. The difference is that my interpretation is now reinforced by by Daizenshuu and both versions of DBS in clear and undeniable ways. All you can do is try to dismiss them as sources but, again, you're just a fan so if you dislike them, your opinion as a fan, just like mine, doesn't carry weight.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:32 am

MisterGuyMan wrote:Your entire first argument is based on bad logic inherently. This morning I wanted to get a red car but in the end I bought a blue car. So using your logic I cannot be referring to different cars because I talk about cars "in the very same sentence." That argument makes zero sense. Sentences have parts. Sentences can have separate clauses and those clauses can refer to different nouns. "Goku defeated Buu" refers to one noun in one clause. "Goku wanted the next generation to beat Buu" refers to anouth noun in a different clause. Your argument is entirely based on a wrong understanding of grammar.
That doesn't work though, because the structure of the sentence is specifically saying that they failed to do what he succeeded in doing. Not two separate clauses, but one leading into and connecting to the other, as it is elaborating and establishing the entirety of the events. It's simple sentence structure, with the second clause explaining what the "problem" of the first clause was. Can the two clauses stand on their own? Yes, but the entire point of having them together is to have one supporting the other.
Your second argument is also faulty because it's just comparing Kid Buu and Goku as fellow strongest. Obviously normal SS Goku is nowhere near Kid Buu levels so your interpretation isn't what it's trying to say. And if you want a third source from Daizenshuu then it says Goku waits for Kid Buu above all else so it's not talking about the exhausted Goku because Goku wants a full fight.
You used the image accompanying it as proof of your interpretation, which is why I pointed out the faulty logic behind it.
No we don't. This is an either/or fallacy on your part. "If a source has one piece of faulty information then the entire source can be dismissed on all points." That's your argument. And the original manga won't pass this test either so stop trying to hold this impossible standard. All the VJump article is guilty of is citing the original manga here which is a point in its favor because it was the original manga that said Bibidi created Buu.
Internal consistency within the manga is different, because that's a matter of retcons. This however is a third-party source citing incorrect information (and since said article was published by the same company that also published the Twel-Buu Mysteries, which was the source of Toriyama's retcon to Buu's origin, there's no good reason for this error to have made it into the article)
You can keep pointing this out but your point is still based on erroneous assumptions about grammar. Different clauses in different parts of a sentence can and do refer to different nouns. Your entire argument hinges on the faulty assumption that a noun has to be the same each time it's used. That's just wrong. Here's an example that proves my point:
This morning I wanted to get a red car but in the end I bought a blue car.
As pointed out above, this doesn't work, because unlike your example, the two clauses in the statement in question are supporting and defining one another. The second clause is explaining what the "problem" of the first clause was about, not speaking of something entirely different.
If you want to cite Goku as an all knowing source then Goku himself says earlier that Buu's power is like a lie. He also has no idea if he'll return to normal size and never indicates any level of suspicion that he will regain his size. Finally, even if they go out and are able to fight Buu, Buu's can still just reabsorb everyone anyway which you keep ignoring. I proved that this was a concern for the Saiyans first and foremost because they opted to save everyone rather than destroy Buu as Vegito and the first thing they did after escaping was to hide everyone.
So, Goku is an all-knowing source when it supports you, but when it refutes you he's suddenly unreliable? Goku accepting that Rou Kaioushin believes he stands no chance against Gotenks Buu holds weight, because Goku knows how powerful he is, and since he didn't try to refute or argue against it, he must have realized that Rou Kaioushin was the truth. He never indicated or believed he wouldn't regain his size either, and while protecting the others may have been a concern for him, nothing about what he said in his reason for not wanting to escape suggested that. He simply said that he and Vegeta were no match for Buu's strength. Not "We can't safely protect the others" or anything along those lines, just "We can't win with him at his strength", even to the point that he was willing to fuse with Vegeta again using the Potara had that been an option.
That interpretation is wrong though because removing Fat Buu resulted in an immediate power increase on to Buff Buu. A simpler interpretation is that removing people from Buuhan weakened Buu and that picture would fall under that time frame. And there's also the issue about how Daizenshuu specifically names Toriyama as the author and I'm citing what is the official manga guide. I'm not saying all guides are the same here. I'm citing the official guide as recognized by Toriyama.
A temporary power increase followed by a noted decrease given Goku's comment on now being able to do something (when beforehand they could not). The entry just speaks of absorptions in general being removed, and that Buu became weakened as a result of them being removed. There's also the fact that the same databook also establishes Gohan Buu as the mightiest Majin, meaning Pure Buu can't. Toriyama never recognized the Daizenshuu as the "official guide" (not sure how you're coming to that conclusion), and the Daizenshuu only names him as the original author (as in the author of the story) not anything to do with the actual Daizenshuu volumes themselves.
No there isn't. The original manga can be interpreted to support Goku and Kid Buu being the clear strongest. You just refuse to acknowledge that such a narrative is possible. That's fine because at this point it's your interpretation vs mine and we're just fine. The difference is that my interpretation is now reinforced by by Daizenshuu and both versions of DBS in clear and undeniable ways. All you can do is try to dismiss them as sources but, again, you're just a fan so if you dislike them, your opinion as a fan, just like mine, doesn't carry weight.
Because what you're using as "reinforcement" is extremely vague and can easily be interpreted to have Pure Buu and Ssj3 Goku be weaker than Evil Buu and everything work fine. There's no concrete facts in the information you're using, while what I'm using isn't open to interpretation. Facts are facts.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 am

Darkprince410 wrote: That doesn't work though, because the structure of the sentence is specifically saying that they failed to do what he succeeded in doing. Not two separate clauses, but one leading into and connecting to the other, as it is elaborating and establishing the entirety of the events. It's simple sentence structure, with the second clause explaining what the "problem" of the first clause was. Can the two clauses stand on their own? Yes, but the entire point of having them together is to have one supporting the other.
No, it's two entirely seperate clauses. Two seperate clauses can lead and connect to each other. Two seperate clauses that connect to each other are grammatically allowed to refer to two different nouns. Here's a clear example:
Goku went to buy a red car. Goku tried to have the next generation solve this problem, but in the end he was the one who bought a car, which was blue.
I took the phrase in question and changed the nouns in question and the descriptions. See how structurally the sentence is the exact same? See how it can refer to two different nouns?

There's no getting around this. You're invented rules of grammar to reinforce your narrative. There is no rule that "clauses that are connected must refer to the same noun" or whatever you're trying to argue. I can't be any more blunt about this. This rule of grammar does not exist.
You used the image accompanying it as proof of your interpretation, which is why I pointed out the faulty logic behind it.
There's nothing faulty about it except you're intentionally interpreting it as a reference to an exhausted Goku when that interpretation isn't needed or even logical. Gohan was the strongest after the Cell Tournament even though everyone can acknowledge that Gohan was exhausted and didn't have the energy to fly after he beat Cell.

And it's proof of confirmation bias on your part. I posted the picture to show that Goku is fellow strongest. Your knee-jerk reaction is to interprete in a way that is wrong. So use logic here. Your interpretation must be wrong. Therefore, using process of elimination the picture can't be saying what you think it is. Do you really think it's saying SS Goku is fellow strongest? If not then you're being intellectually dishonest.
You used the image accompanying it as proof of your interpretation, which is why I pointed out the faulty logic behind it.
And you're relying on a very clear strawman fallacy to do it. You're inventing an argument no one said just to discredit it.
Internal consistency within the manga is different, because that's a matter of retcons. This however is a third-party source citing incorrect information (and since said article was published by the same company that also published the Twel-Buu Mysteries, which was the source of Toriyama's retcon to Buu's origin, there's no good reason for this error to have made it into the article)
You're just using a lot of words to justify your double standard. "Your sources have to be absolutely perfect in every way or else they can be discarded but my opinions and the manga don't fall under this impossible standard." That's your argument. Like it or not, your argument hinges on a double standard.

This is even more evident because the VJump scan is only wrong because it's citing what was clearly stated in the manga, ie that Bibidi created Buu. So if VJump is wrong then you can't hold a fit because the manga is wrong too. That's why relying on double standards are bad.
As pointed out above, this doesn't work, because unlike your example, the two clauses in the statement in question are supporting and defining one another. The second clause is explaining what the "problem" of the first clause was about, not speaking of something entirely different.
The clauses are related. Nothing in grammar says one clause has to define another's clause.
So, Goku is an all-knowing source when it supports you, but when it refutes you he's suddenly unreliable? Goku accepting that Rou Kaioushin believes he stands no chance against Gotenks Buu holds weight, because Goku knows how powerful he is, and since he didn't try to refute or argue against it, he must have realized that Rou Kaioushin was the truth. He never indicated or believed he wouldn't regain his size either, and while protecting the others may have been a concern for him, nothing about what he said in his reason for not wanting to escape suggested that. He simply said that he and Vegeta were no match for Buu's strength. Not "We can't safely protect the others" or anything along those lines, just "We can't win with him at his strength", even to the point that he was willing to fuse with Vegeta again using the Potara had that been an option.
Your problem is that you told all your assumptions as gospel without realizing it. Like it or not Goku HIMSELF says Buu's power is like a lie so his testimony is called into question here purely by his own words. And then you assume he must have known he'd regain his size because "he never indicated or believe he wouldn't regain his size." That's an absence of evidence fallacy. And finally of course they can't win with Buu's current strength because at the time they weren't at full power and they had severe handicaps. Handicaps count in fights against people that are stronger than you. These are all assumptions you can prove.

That's why Daiz and DBS matter. The articulate why all your assumptions need not apply. You're a fan. Your assumptions don't count in the grand scheme of things. Toriyama authorized an official Manga guide laying out how Kid Buu and Goku were the strongest. Then he authorized two sequel series establishing the same thing. Your responses amount to you trying to argue how your interpretations take precedence over the officially recognized narratives found on Toriyama authorized works. It's not a battle you'll win.
A temporary power increase followed by a noted decrease given Goku's comment on now being able to do something (when beforehand they could not). The entry just speaks of absorptions in general being removed, and that Buu became weakened as a result of them being removed. There's also the fact that the same databook also establishes Gohan Buu as the mightiest Majin, meaning Pure Buu can't. Toriyama never recognized the Daizenshuu as the "official guide" (not sure how you're coming to that conclusion), and the Daizenshuu only names him as the original author (as in the author of the story) not anything to do with the actual Daizenshuu volumes themselves.
No. No power decrease is ever noted. None. Zero. Never. Ever.

Goku's and Vegeta's conversation about being able to do somethion ONLY outlines how they needed to hide everyone and how Kid Buu was physically a shrimp. That's it. No power decrease is mentioned anywhere. Compare that to how freeing Gohan, the kids and Piccolo is clearly stated to result in a power loss. My narrative is iron clad. Yours requires assumption. More importantly my narrative is backed up by a guide and two sequel series endorsed by Toriyama. So this guide and all my sources can agree. You're the only one insisting a contradiction exists and it doesnt have to.
Because what you're using as "reinforcement" is extremely vague and can easily be interpreted to have Pure Buu and Ssj3 Goku be weaker than Evil Buu and everything work fine. There's no concrete facts in the information you're using, while what I'm using isn't open to interpretation. Facts are facts.
This is an argument by assertion. You keep repeating how my arguments are vague while outright ignoring them.

1. ToP clearly establishes Gohan is weaker than a Genki Dama he donates to. This puts Kid Buu above Gohan CLEARLY.
2. Daiz says Goku is fellow strongest with some one. That CLEARLY means Goku at least has to be top two.
3. Daiz says the version of Buu defeated by Goku was the strongest in the universe. That's clearly established except if you invent rules of grammar that aren't actually valid. That's your only response to this one and it's not valid.
4. VJump scan says Goku is on par with Buuhan. At worst this CLEARLY puts Goku above Super Buu even if you take an alternate reading.

I repeat. There is nothing open to interpretation in those three and they each apply to the DBS anime, the original manga and the DBS manga respectively. They cannot be interpreted in any other way. They are not vague and each time you try to ignore their existence only to call them vague is intellectually dishonest on your part.

And those arent even half of the sources. I could cite more and they all agree with each other.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:26 am

MisterGuyMan wrote:There's no getting around this. You're invented rules of grammar to reinforce your narrative. There is no rule that "clauses that are connected must refer to the same noun" or whatever you're trying to argue. I can't be any more blunt about this. This rule of grammar does not exist.
I'm not "inventing" any grammar rules here. I'm merely going by what is clearly there to begin with. The second clause is supporting and defining the first, by explaining what the "problem" is in the first. Without the second clause, we're left without knowing what the problem being described in the first one is, just that it was a problem, but the second one then comes in and defines the first one. I'm not saying that clauses connected have to, just that clauses connected can and sometimes do, and in this case, it's clear that they're meant to.
You're just using a lot of words to justify your double standard. "Your sources have to be absolutely perfect in every way or else they can be discarded but my opinions and the manga don't fall under this impossible standard." That's your argument. Like it or not, your argument hinges on a double standard.
If you were to go and look up something, and one of the articles or entries you found started out with a piece of information that was knowingly outdated, even if it were once a fact, are you seriously going to say you're going to still accept everything else in that article without question? That'd be like saying you were looking something up about current world affairs and you found an article that kept referring to Russia as the USSR, even though the article was recently written. Are you not going to be skeptical as to the accuracy of the rest of the article because it made such a glaring mistake?
The clauses are related. Nothing in grammar says one clause has to define another's clause.
Nothing states that it HAS to, no, but it doesn't change that, in this case, it does.
Your problem is that you told all your assumptions as gospel without realizing it. Like it or not Goku HIMSELF says Buu's power is like a lie so his testimony is called into question here purely by his own words. And then you assume he must have known he'd regain his size because "he never indicated or believe he wouldn't regain his size." That's an absence of evidence fallacy. And finally of course they can't win with Buu's current strength because at the time they weren't at full power and they had severe handicaps. Handicaps count in fights against people that are stronger than you. These are all assumptions you can prove.
Except that, he later stated that he was lying about what he said in the same comments regarding Buu's power being "like a lie", so his statement there is again in question/doubt. However, there is nothing stating or otherwise suggesting that Goku's comment about he and Vegeta being no match for Buu's strength can be taken as other than face value. With no information suggesting otherwise, we cannot assume otherwise there. We can't assume "Oh, Goku only said that cause of so and so handicaps", because such handicaps weren't in play/wouldn't be in play or known when the statement was said.
That's why Daiz and DBS matter. The articulate why all your assumptions need not apply. You're a fan. Your assumptions don't count in the grand scheme of things. Toriyama authorized an official Manga guide laying out how Kid Buu and Goku were the strongest. Then he authorized two sequel series establishing the same thing. Your responses amount to you trying to argue how your interpretations take precedence over the officially recognized narratives found on Toriyama authorized works. It's not a battle you'll win.
He didn't authorize the Daizenshuu any more than he did any of the other databooks, so acting like one holds more weight than the other is faulty logic. Again, the Dragon Ball forever databook (published more recently than the Daizenshuu, by Shueisha, with the same level of authorization that the Daizenshuu has), refutes those assertions about Pure Buu being the strongest with facts that cannot be taken any other way (absorptions removed makes him weaker, Vegetto fought the mightiest Majin, etc).

And, as said, nothing in the DBS manga or anime says that Pure Buu is the strongest, just Buu in general, which fits the narrative while still keeping Pure Buu near the weakest.
Goku's and Vegeta's conversation about being able to do somethion ONLY outlines how they needed to hide everyone and how Kid Buu was physically a shrimp. That's it. No power decrease is mentioned anywhere. Compare that to how freeing Gohan, the kids and Piccolo is clearly stated to result in a power loss. My narrative is iron clad. Yours requires assumption. More importantly my narrative is backed up by a guide and two sequel series endorsed by Toriyama. So this guide and all my sources can agree. You're the only one insisting a contradiction exists and it doesnt have to.
They had already hid everyone at the time that the statement was made, meaning that that wasn't on Goku's mind at all when making his comment, but for the shrimp part, while Vegeta definitely does state as much, do you really believe that Goku would judge Buu solely on his physical appearance if he was in any way stronger than what they had previously been sensing? He was absolutely panicked over how much stronger Evil Buu was than he and Vegeta, stated that Kaioushin Buu's ki was growing rather than shrinking, and then is suddenly elated when Pure Buu appears. The only logical way to interpret that is that he doesn't see Pure Buu as being as dangerous as either of the previous Buus, and unless you believe Goku would just be blinded to a higher ki level than what he had been sensing and fearing before, he's not going to just say that about someone based only on their physical appearance.
1. ToP clearly establishes Gohan is weaker than a Genki Dama he donates to. This puts Kid Buu above Gohan CLEARLY.
2. Daiz says Goku is fellow strongest with some one. That CLEARLY means Goku at least has to be top two.
3. Daiz says the version of Buu defeated by Goku was the strongest in the universe. That's clearly established except if you invent rules of grammar that aren't actually valid. That's your only response to this one and it's not valid.
4. VJump scan says Goku is on par with Buuhan. At worst this CLEARLY puts Goku above Super Buu even if you take an alternate reading.
All points that can and have been refuted or dismissed already.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Regarder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:04 pm

This entire situation is why when you have a story that depends on power escalation, power scaling actually is important (not fake fan powerlevels, but a clear and consistent power hierarchy by the author), and getting it wrong fucks up the story. Goku's actions are more or less forgiveable based on exactly how powerful he was in the Buu Saga. It's okay for him to think maybe he could beat the original Fat Buu if he tried, since we can chalk that up to him imagining if he didn't have the time limit. It's okay for him to say that he wanted the kids to have a go at saving the world, and waited for Gotenks and Gohan to have their turn before things turned truly dire, since we believe he was trying his hardest from the moment he stepped in.

However, to imagine that he could actually go toe to toe with Buuhan means he's actively pretending to be helpless even when it comes right down to all the kids failing and him being the last line of defense, having to pick between fusing with Dende or Mr.Satan, and then settling on what he thinks will be a permanent fusion with Vegeta. Kid Buu and Goku can be stronger than Super Buu and the story can still hold up, but Kid Buu and Goku being on par with Buuhan pushes it straight over the edge, and saps large portions of the arc of any tension or meaning. Goku has to either be an idiot who can't sense that his SS3 is about on par with Buuhan (and not the regular Goku ignorance but an idiot at fighting which he is not), or a super genius that predicted ahead of time that Vegeta would appear so they could fuse and then create a barrier to go inside Buu and rescue the kids. Hell, he has an internal monologue about the necessity of fusing, so he must have forgotten how strong SS3 is, and assuming Buuhan = SS3, ultimately the entire story then depends on Goku forgetting he's that strong, then suddenly remembering with absolutely zero comment about it.

The other thing is that having characters get much stronger during fighting, and not zenkai, transformations, and training is a much more recent Toriyama idea. The original manga very rarely deviates from characters needing to either get beat half to death to get stronger, train a lot, or find a new transformation to get stronger. He's also fairly explicit about when characters have got stronger, so it's a stretch to imagine Goku became so much stronger between refusing to fight Buuhan and then being able to fight Kid Buu, with absolutely zero commentry on this. He never even comments on this when he says he could have beaten Fat Buu, and the comparison is made as if he's the same power but didn't try to beat him, because he only needed to delay him.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by MisterGuyMan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:24 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:I'm not "inventing" any grammar rules here. I'm merely going by what is clearly there to begin with. The second clause is supporting and defining the first, by explaining what the "problem" is in the first. Without the second clause, we're left without knowing what the problem being described in the first one is, just that it was a problem, but the second one then comes in and defines the first one. I'm not saying that clauses connected have to, just that clauses connected can and sometimes do, and in this case, it's clear that they're meant to.
You're simply wrong. The second clause doesn't define the first clause. I quoted an example that illustrated why your rule for what clauses do is wrong:
Goku went to buy a red car. Goku tried to have the next generation solve this problem, but in the end he was the one who bought a car, which was blue.
The above example is modeled after the Daizenshuu statement and as you can clearly see, your "the second clause defines the first one" rule is not actually a thing. The second clause can refer to a different noun from the first. This is a basic grammar thing and you're arguing a losing argument.
If you were to go and look up something, and one of the articles or entries you found started out with a piece of information that was knowingly outdated, even if it were once a fact, are you seriously going to say you're going to still accept everything else in that article without question? That'd be like saying you were looking something up about current world affairs and you found an article that kept referring to Russia as the USSR, even though the article was recently written. Are you not going to be skeptical as to the accuracy of the rest of the article because it made such a glaring mistake?
You judge everything on its own merit. What you're describing is a pretty obvious Ad Hominem fallacy and a Poisoning the Well fallacy. If Einstein starts a speech with an obvious error that doesn't mean it's ok the dismiss the rest of the speech on the theory of Relativity. And in this case, the VJump article is reinforcing the same narrative that the Kid Buu saga of the manga, the official manga guide in Daizenshuu and the other version of DBS are reinforcing.
Nothing states that it HAS to, no, but it doesn't change that, in this case, it does.
So nothing says the second clause noun has to refer to the first clause's noun right? Well the second clause noun factually refers to the version of Buu that Goku defeated. See how you're applying a double standard? You're insisting that a made up rule for clause nouns has to apply here. Then you ignore the very clear and simply stated criteria that Goku defeated this version of Buu. Your clause rule isn't even a thing. My argument is stated inside the statement itself in clear terms. I don't see how you keep insisting on keeping your made up clause rule while ignoring what's clearly stated.
Except that, he later stated that he was lying about what he said in the same comments regarding Buu's power being "like a lie", so his statement there is again in question/doubt. However, there is nothing stating or otherwise suggesting that Goku's comment about he and Vegeta being no match for Buu's strength can be taken as other than face value. With no information suggesting otherwise, we cannot assume otherwise there. We can't assume "Oh, Goku only said that cause of so and so handicaps", because such handicaps weren't in play/wouldn't be in play or known when the statement was said.
He never said he was lying that Buu's strength was a lie. Goku just says he could have beaten Fat Buu. And Toriyama, years later, confirmed that Buu's power was unfathomable and that not even Buu knew his full power. So like it or not the "Buu's power is an unfathomable lie" is an actual thing.
He didn't authorize the Daizenshuu any more than he did any of the other databooks, so acting like one holds more weight than the other is faulty logic. Again, the Dragon Ball forever databook (published more recently than the Daizenshuu, by Shueisha, with the same level of authorization that the Daizenshuu has), refutes those assertions about Pure Buu being the strongest with facts that cannot be taken any other way (absorptions removed makes him weaker, Vegetto fought the mightiest Majin, etc).
This is wrong. Toriyama is listed as the author of Daizenshuu. He also admits in an interview that he would have used Daizenshuu as a guide had it been around when he was making the manga. So that's two obvious endorsements for Daizenshuu. It lists him as the author and he says it's good enough for supplementay material and reference.
And, as said, nothing in the DBS manga or anime says that Pure Buu is the strongest, just Buu in general, which fits the narrative while still keeping Pure Buu near the weakest.
This is objectively wrong. You're citing a rule for clauses that doesn't exist and one where you admit doesn't have to apply. I'm literally citing "Goku defeated Buu" to argue that the noun"Buu" refers to the one defeated by Goku... because that's what it says. Your made up rule that you admit doesnt have to apply cannot override what is clearly stated.
They had already hid everyone at the time that the statement was made, meaning that that wasn't on Goku's mind at all when making his comment, but for the shrimp part, while Vegeta definitely does state as much, do you really believe that Goku would judge Buu solely on his physical appearance if he was in any way stronger than what they had previously been sensing? He was absolutely panicked over how much stronger Evil Buu was than he and Vegeta, stated that Kaioushin Buu's ki was growing rather than shrinking, and then is suddenly elated when Pure Buu appears. The only logical way to interpret that is that he doesn't see Pure Buu as being as dangerous as either of the previous Buus, and unless you believe Goku would just be blinded to a higher ki level than what he had been sensing and fearing before, he's not going to just say that about someone based only on their physical appearance.
You're again arguing interpretation. Like it or not that conversation ONLY lists the following:
1. Hiding Everyone
2. Escaping
3. Buu's size
4. Buu's power increasing
Those are all the relevant statements in that conversation. I can interpret the conversation so that any of those things are reasons for "being able to do something" and my interpretation is 100% valid because it fits with what is explicitly stated. You can add additional meaning from earlier but you can't ignore what's outright stated in that conversation. And since my interpretation doesn't contradict official materials endorsed by Toriyama, my itnerpretation further holds additional weight whereas yours has obvious contradictions.

All points that can and have been refuted or dismissed already.
This is an argument by assertion fallacy. You have dismissed these points but these points are official and recognized by Toriyama. You are not. The reverse is more true. We can ignore anything you say because you're a random fan just like you can ignore me. Conversely, those sources you ignore have weight. I'll cite them again so you have an opportunity to respond because you have no authority to dismiss them:
1. ToP clearly establishes Gohan is weaker than a Genki Dama he donates to. This puts Kid Buu above Gohan CLEARLY.
2. Daiz says Goku is fellow strongest with some one. That CLEARLY means Goku at least has to be top two.
3. Daiz says the version of Buu defeated by Goku was the strongest in the universe. That's clearly established except if you invent rules of grammar that aren't actually valid. That's your only response to this one and it's not valid.
4. VJump scan says Goku is on par with Buuhan. At worst this CLEARLY puts Goku above Super Buu even if you take an alternate reading.

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Re: Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:27 am

I think Regarder just perfectly summed up the absurdity of this entire little notion from V-Jump. Since the thread has otherwise devolved into another pointless back-and-forth, I also think it's about time it came to an end before it gets worse.
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