Character interactions are stale

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Doctor.
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Character interactions are stale

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Think about this for a second: how many times have you seen Goku and Vegeta team-up? How many times have you seen Gohan and Piccolo sacrifice themselves for each-other and show how their emotional bond? How many times have you seen Roshi lecture Goku and Kuririn?

The ToP had some unorthodox dynamics (Vegeta + Roshi, for example), but not enough. Now with the Broly movie, the series is back to the old Goku + Vegeta dynamic again, now with extra Freeza. Why don't we see characters making new bonds with a character they haven't interacted with much anymore? The original series wasn't very creative with this either, in all fairness, but it set the foundation that Super should now diverge from instead of sticking to it rigorously.

How about we see Vegeta and Piccolo team up? Those two characters have criminally been underused in tandem in spite of their potential chemistry. Or how about... Trunks and Tenshinhan or some weird match-up like that? And I don't mean these characters should just fight together, but also form a new bond and gain a new understanding and respect for each-other.
Last edited by Doctor. on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by theherodjl » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:21 pm

DB characters can only interact if fighting or the need for training occurs because they seem to be very antisocial with one another without either, almost as if responding to conflict is the only thing they all have in common. Just look at Goku, how often does he visit or call his 'friends' on a peaceful, ordinary day?
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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:40 pm

That would be nice. However it requires doing something new, which means putting effort in for new interactions. And they dont care about that, because the same Goku + Vegeta reluctant team up sells so they dont want to do anything else.

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Regarder » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:42 pm

I feel like the Vegeta and Goku relationship is interesting because we've got to see a Vegeta that is comfortable hanging around Goku now that he's mellowed out enough. In the original manga there's no way he would have ever trained with him but now he does. Obviously there's only so far you can take that before you need to do something else, but it's still been interesting so far even if the character development is all on the Vegeta side. Not that this is a problem since Goku has always fit that trope where he is the central character who doesn't change much and the story dynamics are about how other characters revolve around him and how he changes them.

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:54 pm

I definitely feel that staleness in regards to Goku and Vegeta. They've been circling the same beats since the end of the Boo arc, but with none of Vegeta's end of arc acceptance that actually made said dynamic interesting.

Broly just plays the same old beat all over: they don't want to team up, but they have to team up. I'm just so tired of this. The manga version of the Tournament of Power made it seem like Vegeta was FINALLY going back to his end of Boo arc self when he chose to team up with Goku, but it was ruined in the very next chapter by playing it as straight as ever. Modern Dragon Ball just likes to move in circles.
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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:37 am

the alliances of goku and piccolo or vegeta were for convenience and used to increase the tension in the team to say it that way and were more dedicated to beating the bad guy but after a while they were friends and it was becoming constant but in general are only goku and vegeta.
I guess that's the reason why I like the power tournament in anime version there are many interesting interactions
gohan and obuni
Goku and caulifla
caulifla and kale
goku, 18 and 17
piccolo and saonel and pirina
hit and the saiyans of U6
piccolo and 17 a scene
18 and krillin
roshi and vegeta
vegeta and cabba probably the first friend who has made vegeta on his own

although I would have liked it if we had one of vegeta and tien shinhan something that did not happen sadly

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Regarder » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:40 am

OhHiRenan wrote:I definitely feel that staleness in regards to Goku and Vegeta. They've been circling the same beats since the end of the Boo arc, but with none of Vegeta's end of arc acceptance that actually made said dynamic interesting.

Broly just plays the same old beat all over: they don't want to team up, but they have to team up. I'm just so tired of this. The manga version of the Tournament of Power made it seem like Vegeta was FINALLY going back to his end of Boo arc self when he chose to team up with Goku, but it was ruined in the very next chapter by playing it as straight as ever. Modern Dragon Ball just likes to move in circles.
I don't see how it lacks the acceptance of Vegeta. Vegeta isn't reluctant to team up with Goku anymore, at least in principle going beyond the Saiyan love of 1 on 1 fights. They're practically buddies now to the extent that someone like Vegeta can have a buddy*. During the Buu arc they were forced to team up and interact but Vegeta was still fairly standoffish from Goku in general because he saw him as an enemy who had humiliated him, and he had to gradually get over that. Now, since Super, they've been training together regularly, and they do that in the Broly movie too. In the Broly movie
Saiyan Arc: Vegeta is an outright villain.
Frieza Arc: Vegeta is a villain teaming up with the heroes
Cell Arc: Vegeta begins his transition towards the grey area and is mainly interested in surpassing Kakkarot who he hates for humiliating him.
Buu Arc: Vegeta still resents Kakkarot and faces conflict between his growing softness due to having a family and his desire to get back at Kakkarot for the insult to his pride, with his main character arc resolving in him trying to right the wrongs he commited, and finally coming to accept that Kakkarot is Number One.
BoG, RF, Super, Broly: Vegeta and Goku's relationship shifts towards more of a friendly rivalry with Vegeta still wanting to surpass Goku but no longer holding the hatred he had for him during the previous material.

There's definitely been a shift in Vegeta's characterization since the Buu arc. He still has his natural grumpy personality, and his pride, but we get to see him banter with Goku in a way he didn't previously*. It's kind of more like a buddy cop dynamic now, which has been fun to see. We saw him find acceptance in the Buu arc, and now we've seen the consequences of that acceptance.

Obviously they need to do something else now and have some new element come in that shakes things up, but I really disagree that it's been the same beats as the end of the Buu arc up to now. There's been a shift that is subtle but important. If Goku and Vegeta being kinda-friends is the new status quo now just as was the case with previous foes (only on a much longer timescale), then the logical progression is that Vegeta goes the route Piccolo and Krillin have and is "replaced" with some new foe. However, Vegeta is so marketable that I do fear this won't actually happen.

There's really only two (or three) things that can happen:
1: Vegeta becomes a Piccolo and fades from the position alongside Goku, being "replaced" in turn with a new character.
or
2: Vegeta and Goku become actual enemies again for some unspecified reason.
or

...

3: Nothing changes. It's just this but forever.

1 is natural to what has happened with previous characters, but difficult, because you have to come up with a new character as interesting as Vegeta, whereas 2 is a bit more contrived, though still high risk, high reward; rubbish if they execute it wrong, great if they execute it right. The problem with the new element that shakes things up idea is that there isn't actually that much narrative freedom here given what has been established up to now.

One thing seems for sure to me: whether you are bored with the new character dynamics or not yet, I think they are going to continue for a long time yet. 3 seems likely to me. Goku and Vegeta are like Scorpion and Sub-Zero for Mortal Kombat. The marketability force demands it; option 3 is the easiest option that still allows them to make money while drawing things out for as long as possible.

*

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:25 am

Well, the ToP was the perfect opportunity for something like this because even if characters aren't in the spotlight as far as strength is concerned, in a 80 person battle royale, they could still excel. Unfortunately, we did not get some possible interesting character interactions like you mentioned Vegeta and Piccolo, or things like that. But like you also mentioned, Vegeta and Roshi was a new character interaction that was interesting to see. Now, I'm probably in the minority saying this, but I really enjoyed the interactions with Goku and Vegeta and their fighting together.

At this point, they absolutely need to go past the EoZ and start with new stories. Incorporate Uub in there, incorporate Teen Goten or Teen Trunks, and bring us out of that bubble of that 10-year gap.
OhHiRenan wrote: Broly just plays the same old beat all over: they don't want to team up, but they have to team up. I'm just so tired of this. The manga version of the Tournament of Power made it seem like Vegeta was FINALLY going back to his end of Boo arc self when he chose to team up with Goku, but it was ruined in the very next chapter by playing it as straight as ever. Modern Dragon Ball just likes to move in circles.
Again, if you thought that Vegeta's character arc ended with not wanting to surpass Goku anymore, then you simply misinterpreted it. He simply was able to admit it to himself that he was inferior at the time, and transitioned into more of a healthy rivalry than a destructive one. Vegeta didn't just give up on surpassing Goku. He doesn't give up. The last words in the manga are "some day I will surpass you Kakarot." Obviously, if he no longer cared about that, the dialogue would not exist. Before anyone says "THAT WAS ONLY IN THE KANZENBAN!!", that literally doesn't matter whatsoever. It holds no significance at all. Toriyama thought he needed to add that line, and if you got the impression that this dialogue didn't fit his character, you simply misinterpreted his character arc, because Toriyama sure as hell doesn't feel that way nor did he ever.

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Spider-Man » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:19 pm

I agree with you there I'm really getting tired of Gohan and Piccolo team up it is very stale and it suck that 17 and Piccolo didn't get that much interaction or not even team up in the ToP.

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:56 pm

I'm pretty over Goku and Vegeta as they are now. Their relationship in Resurrection F was actually somewhat fresh at the time, since it was the first time we'd seen them training together and they had this fun bickering chemistry. Mostly it was the way Vegeta's rivalry with Goku felt in line with his Buu saga development. I think we can chalk that up to Toriyama's skill at character writing since that banter didn't translate over to Super as often and ended up regressing by the Tournament of Power.

It's at the point now where any interaction those two have with characters other than each other is refreshing. We've mentioned Vegeta/Roshi, but there was also Goku/Android 17 and 18, Vegeta/Future Trunks, Goku/Gohan, Goku/Krillin, Goku/Caulifla and of course, Goku/Freeza. Even ones we'd seen before like Goku/Gohan felt like they had a different dynamic to them. More of that would be nice, it's why I find it so hard to care about stories that are just Goku/Vegeta with none of the ensemble cast. Broly works because it's more about Broly, his relationship with his father, Cheelai, Lemo, Freeza etc. Goku and Vegeta aren't the main focus.

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Re: Character interactions are stale

Post by Jamtia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:07 am

I would like to see different combinations other than Goku and Vegeta. We did get to see some interesting combinations in the ToP, and I think it should be expanded on.

I would love to see Vegeta actually working more with the other Z Fighters like Piccolo, Gohan, Tien. I think that could really add to his character. To me Goku is the same towards everyone, never really has had growth, or at least not in Super that much. But seeing him interact with 17 when they never met was great.

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