Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

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Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by TobyS » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:18 pm

So base/SS1 Gogeta does better against Broly than God Goku. Yet In BoG Goku speculates that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus and doesn't suggest fusion again after getting SSGod...

Is this an inconsistency?

Going by manga logic here not anime... (Broly movie fits both)

If we are assuming goku didn't “absorb god into base”
or whatever, Vegeta and Goku saying they are about at their limit when they enter the Roat. And most gains come from mastering blue.... there shouldn't be a base Gogeta able to beat a hypothetical SS3 Vegito should there... The amount stronger the base saiyans would have to overcome like 400 times....

You see where I'm confused?
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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:25 pm

The only explanation is fusion is based off of the users full power, not their base form. So since Goku and Vegeta can go god mode, that means base Gogeta becomes stronger, as base form fusions may always be stronger than the max power of the people fusing. For example base Vegeto being stronger than ssj3 Goku in the buu saga.
Or you could just Go with the battle of god movie, then RoF movie, and then start from the U6 arc of the manga, and then it could make sense.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:42 pm

TobyS wrote:So base/SS1 Gogeta does better against Broly than God Goku. Yet In BoG Goku speculates that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus and doesn't suggest fusion again after getting SSGod...

Is this an inconsistency?

Going by manga logic here not anime... (Broly movie fits both)

If we are assuming goku didn't “absorb god into base”
or whatever, Vegeta and Goku saying they are about at their limit when they enter the Roat. And most gains come from mastering blue.... there shouldn't be a base Gogeta able to beat a hypothetical SS3 Vegito should there... The amount stronger the base saiyans would have to overcome like 400 times....

You see where I'm confused?
The manga has no dialogue where Goku says that fusion would not be enough to defeat Beerus. Rather, that was only stated in the anime and BoG movie. Furthermore, you have to understand that Goku and Vegeta are getting stronger and stronger after each arc. The SSJ Vegito in the BoG arc would be much weaker compared to an equivalent SSJ Vegito post-ToP. The movie actually showed Base Gogeta doing better than even SSB Goku, forget SSG. It's still unknown what the fusion formula is and how it's calculated apart from Vados's words. All we know is that during the Buu saga, Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku and that's stated in the Daizenshuu 7. Now, fast forward to the present and Base Gogeta > SSB Goku. The pattern I'm seeing here is that the Base Fusion always exceeds the individual's max capacity.

If we go by Vados, who said that the fusion is tens of times stronger than the sum of the parts, then (A+B)x10 where A and B should represent the individual's max. The question then arises is - is there a difference between fusing as Super Saiyans vs fusing in base? Fusing as Super Saiyans result in a being that's already in Super Saiyan and can't power down into base. This is what Elder Kaioshin said in the Buu saga and why he advised Goku to fuse in base. In DBS, we've seen two fusions in which the fusees were already transformed before the fusion - Kefla and Merged Zamasu. Kefla was a fusion of BSSJ Kale and SSJ Caulifla, so the result should have been a transformed BSSJ Kefla which is what the manga showed. In the anime, we see a Base Kefla. Merged Zamasu was a fusion of SSR Black and Zamasu which resulted in a spiky white haired Merged Zamasu who remained looking like that always (implying he can't power down). It also means that fusing while transformed probably yields a weaker fusion than fusing as base.

So if we do go by the movie and anime, where SSG > SSJ3 Vegito (hypothetical), then that is because that Vegito is one without god ki. A base Vegito by contrast in the Zamasu arc would be then stronger than SSB Goku because the individuals in the fusion would both have god ki present. At the same time, it doesn't mean that Goku "absorbed SSG into base" because that would mean base Goku = SSG Goku and since they are distinct transformations with a huge power gap, it's not the case. So basically, I think that the fusion takes into consideration the two fusees' bodies maximum.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:13 pm

Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod
How did you come with this statement again? Goku never mentioned nor went SSJ3 as Vegetto. If something, he meant SSJ Vegetto.

Anyway, yes it's weird that base Gogeta does a lot better than SSJB Goku/Vegeta if SSJG alone was meant to be stronger than SSJ Vegetto.
Unless base fusion is indeed so strong and what Goku lacked against Beerus was more connected to god ki rather than pure power. But it's still bullshit because in official media SSJB is mostly presented as at least equal to SSJ4 which itself had boost about equal to hypothetical GT SSJ Vegetto. So SSJB Goku/Vegeta should be still at least equal to SSJ Gogeta. I consider this to be big failure made by either TOEI or Toriyama, whoever planned base Gogeta to be already that powerful in Broly.

Gogeta should need at least SSJ2 to surpass SSJB Goku and Vegeta.
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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:36 pm

I don’t think it’s anything to be fussy about. Super Saiyan God and Fusion were both power-ups way way above Goku’s strength, so it might be difficult to guess which one is stronger, even by counting his experience. He had to try at least Super Saiyan God to have an idea, but even so they are realms difficult to compare, from an in-universe standpoint. Out of universe, the franchise just didn’t bother to confirm it until this movie came out.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 pm

Couple possible explanations

1.) The base power of fusion is dependent on max power of fusees (this assumes good compatability)

So base vegetto/gogeta (z) > ssj3 goku (z)

Base vegetto/gogeta(super) > god/blue goku/vegeta



2.) The boost from potara/metamoran is the same its always been but ssg AFTER BoG, is only a small amount stronger than ssj3.

So lets say potara boosts power by 10,000 fold

Now lets say ssg is only say 5 times stronger than ssj3 so its about 2,000 times multiplier

so base fusion > ssg

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:18 pm

dragon boss z wrote:The only explanation is fusion is based off of the users full power, not their base form.
This, basically. Merely attaining Super Saiyan God would improve the power of the fusion. I thought this was common sense even…
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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:25 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:The only explanation is fusion is based off of the users full power, not their base form.
This, basically. Merely attaining Super Saiyan God would improve the power of the fusion. I thought this was common sense even…
It's "common sense" in the sense that it is a popular belief that has been held based on what we've seen, but it isn't as though this is something that was ever explicitly stated or anything else.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:17 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod
How did you come with this statement again? Goku never mentioned nor went SSJ3 as Vegetto. If something, he meant SSJ Vegetto.
He simply said that fusing with Vegeta would prove to likely not be effective against Beerus, and that logically would mean the best that Vegetto could offer, which would be Super Saiyan 3.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:29 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod
How did you come with this statement again? Goku never mentioned nor went SSJ3 as Vegetto. If something, he meant SSJ Vegetto.
He simply said that fusing with Vegeta would prove to likely not be effective against Beerus, and that logically would mean the best that Vegetto could offer, which would be Super Saiyan 3.
They never went SSJ3 as Vegetto so Goku don't know how strong they would become and if it would be enough to beat Beerus. The only comparison he had was Vegetto SSJ and that was even his (slightly) weaker version from Buu saga. You can't say SSJG being stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from BoG is a fact. It's just a theory. Also, in this case it wasn't only about raw power but also god ki which was needed for Goku's attacks to be effective against Beerus.
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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:41 pm

We don't know that Vegeta could attain SSJ3 at the beginning of Super. Technically, we don't know if he can achieve it at all if there's more to it than "have this power level". So it would've been SSJ2 Vegetto, most likely, but even then probably only SSJ.

Getting stronger doesn't just mean access to new transformations, it means your base power increases proportionally as well.
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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:25 pm

My working theory right now is that the base of a Fusion between two individuals is based on how well they compliment each other AND the potential both have.

For example, Gotenks has a lot of potential from Goten and Trunks. However, the 2 of them don't compliment each other well, so they don't hit the potential cap of their Super Saiyan forms as the starting point for their base; a similar thing happened with Merged Zamasu, since he just fused with himself essentially.

Vegito and Gogeta, on the other hand, are composed of Goku and Vegeta who have great shared potential AND compliment each other well. Thus, their resultant fusion equals the max potential the two of them together could achieve and is boosted further, matching their max potential together. For example, when Vegito first showed up, even though Vegeta didn't know how to turn SS3, he still had high potential and complimented Goku so well that Vegito ended up as strong as that level.

Similarly, Gogeta now has that going for him, but the ceiling of potential has risen now that Goku and Vegeta have access to SSB, meaning that their resulting Fusion has that potential cap as the starting point.

In essence, the potential cap that the 2 fusees have together serves as the starting base for the ensuing Fusion character if the 2 compliment each other well.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:11 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: Also, in this case it wasn't only about raw power but also god ki which was needed for Goku's attacks to be effective against Beerus.
This is also just a theory. Being blunt, it's a pretty bad one. This has never been implied, and instead the only implication that SSJG brought with it was the huge increase in power was what made it useful. Jiren and Broly haven't got god ki, yet they can both most definitely defeat some of the GoD, and for some people they could possibly defeat them all. God ki gives Saiyans a great boost, but outside of that it does nothing, which is actually where the balls been dropped for me.

Anyway, the argument that SSJ3 Vegetto was not enough against Beerus, and by extension being weaker than SSJG could work, as Goku came to that conclusion against a massively suppressed Beerus. In BoG upon achieving SSJG he did say that he never knew a world like SSJG existed, so it's possible that he wasn't talking about SSJ3 Vegetto at first, but it's very possible that SSJ3 Vegetto would still fall below that realm of power Goku was so amazed by. Though in all honesty for Goku to rule fusion out, which as we've seen in Super he never seems to unless he believes he's got a chance one on one, does imply that whatever Vegetto may have been capable of would fall short, so that should at least extend to SSJ2. BoG actually went one further, and Goku totally gave up on the fight with Beerus and tried to summon somebody else to fight. Truthfully it was quite strange seeing Goku ruling himself out, and even a fusion of himself. At that stage he decided that nothing he could do would be enough. Something we've never seen before, and may never see again.

Currently it seems that the Fusion uses the fusees maximum power as the base power, at the minimum.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by TobyS » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:43 am

Goku can go SS3, he has the knowledge how to and the power to do so.

Vegetto has Gokus knowledge of how to do so and FAR more than power than whatever minimum requirement there is.

But don't get too hung up on that, my main point is there's obviously a huge gap between base Gogeta and classic base veggito.

As someone who likes to lowball all characters to prevent immersion destroying power inflation shonen cancer this could create an inconsistency.

There's 3 solutions.

1. Goku and Vegeta really did that much stronger in base, even in the manga, even IF they didn't “absorb god in base”
2. Fusion is somehow based on “base is =\> max power of fusees” I don't think anything other than “current max power or current form x ‘unkown fusion multiplier’ ” makes sense to me but I'd prefer this to point 1.
3. Base Gogeta not getting instagibbed was not a Toriyama addition. Like his notes just said, they fuse and fight and toei wanked the base forms all on their own. Base doing too well is a toei thing...

I'll take a combo of 3 with 2 as a backup.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Dagon » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:03 pm

The SSJG form currently used by Goku and Vegeta is a different breed that the one that appeared from the SSJG ritual. The ritual gave an astounding amount of power but the "post-ritual" SSJG is a smaller gap from base to SSJG form. The power level is still greater than the ritual SSJG, but Goku and Vegeta's forms lower than SSJG have risen tremendously through both training and from Goku absorbing the initial SSJG power.

There is no inconsistency. It simply means Ikari form Broly and base Gogeta are above "current" SSJG Vegeta and Goku. If Gogeta were formed in the BoG arc then he'd not be anywhere close to the ritual SSJG power level, because his component parts, Goku and Vegeta, were much weaker back then.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm

Isn't Goku in this case an unreliable narrator? Like you said he just speculated it and not even giving it much thought either for that matter. You are over thinking this way too much.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:49 pm

It's true. The man himself, at that time, Toriyama even stated, Super Saiyan god is above anything before it. That includes fusion. If you look at BOG's narration, it was stated that only a Super Saiyan god will match Beerus.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:26 pm

It kinda seems that way but I'd probably argue that Base Gogeta would be above Super Saiyan God as well if even Base Kefla was.

Like most I thought Super Saiyan God Goku was meant to be above any version of Super Saiyan Vegito because why write off one method as not being good enough only to then use another method, a new method which took part in the battle instead?

But maybe that wasn't the case after all. Nothing specifically contradicts it because Super Saiyan God Goku also wasn't good enough to beat Beerus.

Between how Kefla was portrayed and now Gogeta then maybe Fusion was superior to the God Forms the whole time.
Miracles wrote:It's true. The man himself, at that time, Toriyama even stated, Super Saiyan god is above anything before it.
Did he? Where?

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:24 am

Bullza wrote:
Miracles wrote:It's true. The man himself, at that time, Toriyama even stated, Super Saiyan god is above anything before it.
Did he? Where?
Excuse me, it was Yamamuro who quoted Toriyama...

...I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape, but then illustrations with a completely different feel came back from Toriyama-sensei….

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -yamamuro/

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:39 am

Miracles wrote:Excuse me, it was Yamamuro who quoted Toriyama...

...I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape, but then illustrations with a completely different feel came back from Toriyama-sensei….

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -yamamuro/
How much does this even account for anything now? Toriyama said Whis was a 15, Beerus was a 10 and Goku was a 6.

That was obviously retconned away. This is just something that Toriyama happened to tell a member of staff, long before he'd even thought of any possible stories to come after ward.

Just in the material itself, all were told us that Fusion wouldn't be enough to to beat Beerus. Super Saiyan God wasn't enough either though.

Then between how powerful Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Gogeta are, both stronger than Super Saiyan Blue...then maybe this was how it always was.

Rather than overcomplicating it maybe Super Saiyan Vegito just was stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

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