Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

[p-hyvo]

Simple explanation :
God has been retconned a long ago. The multiplier now is not the same as it was when it came arount (not the same at the ritual god)

So, it is more like this :
Ritual god>>>base fusions>>>>mastered god(retconned)

[PFM18]

Simple explanation :
God has been retconned a long ago. The multiplier now is not the same as it was when it came arount (not the same at the ritual god)

So, it is more like this :
Ritual god>>>base fusions>>>>mastered god(retconned)

It doesn't have to be a retcon. It's just that the SSG that they achieved on their own, has a lesser multiplier.

[Bullza]

There is nothing that contradicts this. Nowhere was it stated that a single super saiyan god > fusion with god powers in the story. The purpose of introducing god was to show it was the greatest thing that came before it [The purpose of Yammauro's quote from Toriyama] in order To open a whole new world for Goku. Anything else is headcannon.

But none of this stuff happened anyway. A Saiyan God never became a match for Beerus, they aren't his arch rivals, whether he had him in a bind or not, Beerus is around the same margin of strength as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito now and Super Saiyan God isn't remotely comparable to Beerus. It including Fusion is fine because at the time he'd only be capable of at best Super Saiyan 3 Vegito so that wouldn't be a match for him either.

Goku knew that Fusion wasn't going to be good enough. He knew nothing about Super Saiyan God so naturally seeking it out would automatically make for better odds.

So sure Super Saiyan God almost surely was introduced to be better than anything before it, at a time when the story may not have continued at all but it did and now we have Super and them showing on multiple occasions that Fusion gives a better boost than God Forms.

It was shown in the manga, shown in the anime with both Kefla and Vegito and now it's been shown again in the movie. These things are clear cut and recent. The Battle of Gods thing is ambiguous and severely out of date.

[Miracles]

There is nothing that contradicts this. Nowhere was it stated that a single super saiyan god > fusion with god powers in the story. The purpose of introducing god was to show it was the greatest thing that came before it [The purpose of Yammauro's quote from Toriyama] in order To open a whole new world for Goku. Anything else is headcannon.

But none of this stuff happened anyway. A Saiyan God never became a match for Beerus, they aren't his arch rivals, whether he had him in a bind or not, Beerus is around the same margin of strength as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito now and Super Saiyan God isn't remotely comparable to Beerus. It including Fusion is fine because at the time he'd only be capable of at best Super Saiyan 3 Vegito so that wouldn't be a match for him either.

Goku knew that Fusion wasn't going to be good enough. He knew nothing about Super Saiyan God so naturally seeking it out would automatically make for better odds.

So sure Super Saiyan God almost surely was introduced to be better than anything before it, at a time when the story may not have continued at all but it did and now we have Super and them showing on multiple occasions that Fusion gives a better boost than God Forms.

It was shown in the manga, shown in the anime with both Kefla and Vegito and now it's been shown again in the movie. These things are clear cut and recent. The Battle of Gods thing is ambiguous and severely out of date.

You need to differentiate, Back in BOG Super Saiyan god > godless fusion.

Afterward, fusion with god modes > Super Saiyan god.

There is no retcon or BOG being out of date or no contradiction. It's saying god powers are the cream of the crop. So naturally a god fusion will be > single Saiyan god later in the story.

[p-hyvo]

Simple explanation :
God has been retconned a long ago. The multiplier now is not the same as it was when it came arount (not the same at the ritual god)

So, it is more like this :
Ritual god>>>base fusions>>>>mastered god(retconned)

It doesn't have to be a retcon. It's just that the SSG that they achieved on their own, has a lesser multiplier.

I see it more as a retcon.
That's the explanation I've always given to myself actually

[Bullza]

Afterward, fusion with god modes > Super Saiyan god.

But Fusion isn't just above Super Saiyan God with it's God forms, it's already above that with just it's Base form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I hate to admit it, but Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro may have no idea what they're doing.

[TobyS]

So it only makes sense if we assume they got a permanent power up after the god ritual and base Gogeta benefits from their higher potentials.

I don't really buy either of those things though.

I thought we collectively let go of the absorbed god power into base thing long ago.

And the fact that they can now red and blue should only benefit Gogeta red and blue imo. The other forms should be relative.

I don't buy they got that much stronger normally on the manga continuity. There should be a gap between blue and a base fusion IMO. I don't think base Vegetto was that much stronger then SS3 Goku compared to how much stronger blue is compared to ss3 goku. The gap between god forms and Yellow is insane while manga veggetto couldn't handle buuhan in base...

Remind me I only saw the movie once.

As I recall, Vegeta fought Broly and cylced up through the forms as needed.

They switch and Goku does the same right?
So Base Goku fights a Broly that required Red from Vegeta?

I took this at the time as Broly calmed back down slightly between bouts but if you look at it alongside the base Gogeta stuff I think I'm gonna conclude it's just toei wanking the base saiyans and it wasn't a Toriyama instruction.

Was it announced there will be a Broly manga after all?
Who's writing it? I might just wait for that and see if it does it too.

I'm just gonna dismiss it as a toei mistake because none of your valiant efforts at explaining it work for me.

[Miracles]

Afterward, fusion with god modes > Super Saiyan god.

But Fusion isn't just above Super Saiyan God with it's God forms, it's already above that with just it's Base form.

Depends on the level of power. Back in BOG, god > fusion. As the story progress so did the characters, therefore fusion > single god. No contradiction just escalation.

[dbgtFO]

As I recall, Vegeta fought Broly and cylced up through the forms as needed.

They switch and Goku does the same right?
So Base Goku fights a Broly that required Red from Vegeta?

I took this at the time as Broly calmed back down slightly between bouts but if you look at it alongside the base Gogeta stuff I think I'm gonna conclude it's just toei wanking the base saiyans and it wasn't a Toriyama instruction.

Broly if anything got even more enraged before facing Goku, instead of being calmed down.
His fight with Vegeta was interrupted, before he had even fully transformed into his rage form and it's only, when he starts fighting Goku that his muscle mass increase and his hair stands on end, so yeah it's just typical Toei video game logic, not something to be excessively analyzed from a powerscaling perspective.

[ankokudaishogun]

it's just toei wanking the base saiyans and it wasn't a Toriyama instruction.

yeah, that's quite likely: they wanted shocase all the forms for both Goku and Vegeta and fuck all to coherence.

I guess we can play it as Broly is still learning, so he still was kind of of shit at fighting techniques and Goku learned his style from his battle with Vegeta, enabling him to initially out-skill Broly who, in turn, had to deal with Goku's style which was different from Vegeta's and forced him to learn again.

Kind of whathappened with Hit in the u6 tournament.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The thing with Broly is that his performance strongly implies that the gap between forms isn't as astronomically huge as once thought, which also helps feed into the camp (that includes myself) that base Goku and Vegeta are REALLY strong normally.

I mean, when base Broly is managing to keep up with base Vegeta, that's an achievement on HIS part; keeping up with SS Vegeta in base form is an achievement on HIS part. And really, I don't think anyone wants to buy into the idea that base Broly didn't surpass the likes of Piccolo or Majin Buu.

And as soon as he gains the power of an Oozaru in his base form, he can tank a direct punch from SSG Vegeta in an isolated incidence and overall showcase superior battle power in a prolonged fight. Paragus makes sure to mention that Broly's speed and agility when he's using his Oozaru Base form remain the same whilst gaining its strength; nothing indicates that the power of an Oozaru itself changed.

[Bullza]

Depends on the level of power. Back in BOG, god > fusion. As the story progress so did the characters, therefore fusion > single god. No contradiction just escalation.

But the God Forms grew more powerful just the same.

[Miracles]

Depends on the level of power. Back in BOG, god > fusion. As the story progress so did the characters, therefore fusion > single god. No contradiction just escalation.

But the God Forms grew more powerful just the same.

Yes, that means a single god will not be stronger than two gods merged. It's simple Dragonball power escalation plot point.

[Bullza]

Yes, that means a single god will not be stronger than two gods merged. It's simple Dragonball power escalation plot point.

Yeah obviously, a Super Saiyan God Fusion will be superior to a lone Super Saiyan God.

I'm talking about just the Base form. The Base Fusion is stronger than a Super Saiyan God. A Base Saiyan merged is stronger than a single God.

Not what people were led to believe in Battle of Gods.

[ZombieVito]

My working theory right now is that the base of a Fusion between two individuals is based on how well they compliment each other AND the potential both have.

For example, Gotenks has a lot of potential from Goten and Trunks. However, the 2 of them don't compliment each other well, so they don't hit the potential cap of their Super Saiyan forms as the starting point for their base; a similar thing happened with Merged Zamasu, since he just fused with himself essentially.

Vegito and Gogeta, on the other hand, are composed of Goku and Vegeta who have great shared potential AND compliment each other well. Thus, their resultant fusion equals the max potential the two of them together could achieve and is boosted further, matching their max potential together. For example, when Vegito first showed up, even though Vegeta didn't know how to turn SS3, he still had high potential and complimented Goku so well that Vegito ended up as strong as that level.

Similarly, Gogeta now has that going for him, but the ceiling of potential has risen now that Goku and Vegeta have access to SSB, meaning that their resulting Fusion has that potential cap as the starting point.

In essence, the potential cap that the 2 fusees have together serves as the starting base for the ensuing Fusion character if the 2 compliment each other well.

Now that you mentioned Merged Zamasu. He should be way more powerful since he's technically in Super Saiyan and his base should be stronger than Black yet he got overpowered by Kaioken Blue Goku (2? Or 10?).

I can also totally buy Goten and Trunks being incompatible. We do have evidence that Gotenks isn't that strong.

This theory is very solid IMO.

[Miracles]

Yes, that means a single god will not be stronger than two gods merged. It's simple Dragonball power escalation plot point.

Yeah obviously, a Super Saiyan God Fusion will be superior to a lone Super Saiyan God.

I'm talking about just the Base form. The Base Fusion is stronger than a Super Saiyan God. A Base Saiyan merged is stronger than a single God.

Not what people were led to believe in Battle of Gods.

BOG doesn't lead people to believe a god absorbed base fusion plus the merging/fused powers added boost is weaker than a single super Saiyan god.

As usual, that is the fandom's delusion.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My working theory right now is that the base of a Fusion between two individuals is based on how well they compliment each other AND the potential both have.

For example, Gotenks has a lot of potential from Goten and Trunks. However, the 2 of them don't compliment each other well, so they don't hit the potential cap of their Super Saiyan forms as the starting point for their base; a similar thing happened with Merged Zamasu, since he just fused with himself essentially.

Vegito and Gogeta, on the other hand, are composed of Goku and Vegeta who have great shared potential AND compliment each other well. Thus, their resultant fusion equals the max potential the two of them together could achieve and is boosted further, matching their max potential together. For example, when Vegito first showed up, even though Vegeta didn't know how to turn SS3, he still had high potential and complimented Goku so well that Vegito ended up as strong as that level.

Similarly, Gogeta now has that going for him, but the ceiling of potential has risen now that Goku and Vegeta have access to SSB, meaning that their resulting Fusion has that potential cap as the starting point.

In essence, the potential cap that the 2 fusees have together serves as the starting base for the ensuing Fusion character if the 2 compliment each other well.

Now that you mentioned Merged Zamasu. He should be way more powerful since he's technically in Super Saiyan and his base should be stronger than Black yet he got overpowered by Kaioken Blue Goku (2? Or 10?).

I can also totally buy Goten and Trunks being incompatible. We do have evidence that Gotenks isn't that strong.

This theory is very solid IMO.

It could also be that being fundamentally different species makes a Fusion worse, as well. While their souls were the same, Merged Zamasu's component bodies weren't both Saiyans like the prominent Saiyan Fusions like Gogeta and Gotenks.

Also, thank ya! Glad to see that other people are coming around to my cult way of thinking

[PFM18]

I can also totally buy Goten and Trunks being incompatible. We do have evidence that Gotenks isn't that strong.

Gotenks functions the same way. His Base is superior to the highest form of both of his fusees.

I think the most reasonable explanation for SSG>potara switching is because Goku already adapted to the SSG power and made it his own, in such a way that his SSJ was as strong as his SSG from moments prior and then surpassed it. When he was later able to tap into SSG, it didn't yield the same boost because his body had already adapted to the experience/absorbed the power. If it be completely ridiculous for Goku's SSG to still give the same boost because you'd have to assume that the "made the power his own" and "his body learned from that experience" means absolutely nothing and Goku's forms still function the same way. That's entirely irrational.

As for Base fusion>SSB, it just seems that the fusion's Base form is dependent on the max power of the fusees.

[ZombieVito]

Gotenks functions the same way. His Base is superior to the highest form of both of his fusees.

I disagree. We have a lot of evidence that he's not very strong.