Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
p-hyvo wrote: Wait, potara's multiplier wasn't in daizenshuu 7 together with ssj's multiplier?
No. Daizenshuu 7 assembled powerlevels but not multipliers. Super Exciting Guides are the source for the multipliers. The old 50-fold Super Saiyan boost doesn’t come from Daizenshuu books too. I assume the newer SEG simply took the powerlevel of Super Saiyan Goku and Base Goku and divided, thus implying a 50-fold boost.
OK then
I'm not good in associating things to where they come from Lol.
Anyway, even that x50 multiplier isn't OK for me.
I think it's gave without enough thinking.

To a non practical/ inexpert eye it could feat, but I think there are this problems :

1) goku, when he turned ssj, was injuried, so anyway the result wouldn't be 150 but less plus, a x1,25 difference between him and freezer would have been too much mathematically speaking to have a clash like that as a result, it would have been much more one sided to goku's favor that how it is with that difference.

2) goku had a rage boost in that moment, so , admitting that that x50 is OK, to be right it needs not to be the normal /smooth multiplier for everyone, but the rage boosted one, invalidating the ssj = x50 thing.

Intact, for cell saga I simply follow toriyama and what he said in an interview, using the x10 multiplier, and in buu saga I use a x4 multiplier for ssj , that makes everything run incredibly smoothly,combining all the things as they should be without forcing anything in my opinion

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:52 pm

Bullza wrote:Which is completely meaningless, it has no bearing on any official material that's been released, it was an old behind the scenes comment and nothing more. Even comments that are made in actual interviews hold little merit, this is someone who said that you can't become a Kaioshin, you just get born as one....then it turned out you can become a Kaioshin by being given a green Potara.

If it's not something that was actually said in the movie or series itself then it doesn't matter.
Toriyama didn't contradict himself about the Kaioshins, or at least not in the respect that you are implying that he did. You never necessarily had to be born as a Kaioshin, it was just that people who were born of the shinjin race were the only ones that could become Shinjin. Toriyama just gave the new added material that you need to officially become a Kaioshin, and the potara represents that. Zamasu is clearly the same race as Universe 7's Kaioshin,(or shin as we know him) so it contradicts nothing.

And yes, Toriyama's word holds the highest authority in this franchise. He doesn't have this arbitrary, strange expiration date on his word. He's prone to retcon things sometimes, but until he retcons it, things that he has explicitly said, are assumed to remain true.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:03 pm

Miracles wrote:The dream was only Super Saiyan god would be able to amuse Beerus, nothing else.
No, now that's your head canon. He dreamt about Super Saiyan God and nothing else but nothing suggests that only that would amuse him.
Your question is irrelevant concerning the facts.
No you're dodging the question because you know it'll contradict you. They're all facts.

Beerus being a couple hundred million years old is a fact.

Beerus requiring 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku in Battle of Gods is a fact.

Beerus being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken times 20 is a fact.

Their only being 2 years between Battle of Gods and the Tournament of Power is a fact.

So I'll ask again, did Beerus gain many multiple times the amount of power in a couple years that he did in a couple hundrrd million years? It's not a trick question, you either think he did or he didn't.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:29 pm

Bullza wrote:
Miracles wrote:The dream was only Super Saiyan god would be able to amuse Beerus, nothing else.
No, now that's your head canon. He dreamt about Super Saiyan God and nothing else but nothing suggests that only that would amuse him.
Your question is irrelevant concerning the facts.
No you're dodging the question because you know it'll contradict you. They're all facts.

Beerus being a couple hundred million years old is a fact.

Beerus requiring 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku in Battle of Gods is a fact.

Beerus being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken times 20 is a fact.

Their only being 2 years between Battle of Gods and the Tournament of Power is a fact.

So I'll ask again, did Beerus gain many multiple times the amount of power in a couple years that he did in a couple hundrrd million years? It's not a trick question, you either think he did or he didn't.
Your question and any answer is not canon, seeing as how no one knows the numbers of growth. A vain proposal by you. Just like your illogical stand about fusion possibly being greater than god when god was the ONLY candidate mentioned to be an arch rival to Beerus. Can you show me where Fusion was stated to "entertain" Beerus or be an "arch rival" to him? Seeing as how a fusion in Gotenks was completely laughed at By Beerus and Goku didn't even attempt to fight Beerus with it. So it doesn't matter if Beerus put god in the L column with a fusion, the point is, god was stated to be more of a challenge [the only opponent] as his "rival" and "amusement" and it was.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:07 am

Miracles wrote:Your question and any answer is not canon, seeing as how no one knows the numbers of growth.
You're still dodging the question. You don't want to acknowledge that Beerus' strength was retconned heavily since Battle of Gods, which everyone knows to be the case, because by doing so you acknowledge that something that Toriyama once stated no longer applies now.

And that's what you're going off of here, that whatever he says is set in stone and absolute forever.
Just like your illogical stand about fusion possibly being greater than god when god was the ONLY candidate mentioned to be an arch rival to Beerus.
See this where you're going wrong. Just because Super Saiyan God was the only thing he dreamt about doesn't mean it was the only thing that could have rivalled him.

Gotenks is entirely irrelevant because he doesn't even remotely compare to Vegito. Going by the anime Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is a chump compared to Base Vegito so he wasn't even worth bringing up.

The rest of what you said also doesn't really apply because I already said that for the time Battle of Gods came out, Super Saiyan God most likely was intended to be stronger than Fusion. That was something I'd been saying for many years.

I'm saying that with what we now know in 2019, years after Battle of Gods came out, that the information we believed might not necessarily be the case.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:44 am

Bullza wrote:
Miracles wrote:Your question and any answer is not canon, seeing as how no one knows the numbers of growth.
You're still dodging the question. You don't want to acknowledge that Beerus' strength was retconned heavily since Battle of Gods, which everyone knows to be the case, because by doing so you acknowledge that something that Toriyama once stated no longer applies now.

And that's what you're going off of here, that whatever he says is set in stone and absolute forever.
Just like your illogical stand about fusion possibly being greater than god when god was the ONLY candidate mentioned to be an arch rival to Beerus.
See this where you're going wrong. Just because Super Saiyan God was the only thing he dreamt about doesn't mean it was the only thing that could have rivalled him.

Gotenks is entirely irrelevant because he doesn't even remotely compare to Vegito. Going by the anime Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is a chump compared to Base Vegito so he wasn't even worth bringing up.

The rest of what you said also doesn't really apply because I already said that for the time Battle of Gods came out, Super Saiyan God most likely was intended to be stronger than Fusion. That was something I'd been saying for many years.

I'm saying that with what we now know in 2019, years after Battle of Gods came out, that the information we believed might not necessarily be the case.
No, Super Saiyan god wasn't just the only thing Beerus dreamed about. It was also the ONLY candidate mentioned/prophesied by the Oracle fish to give him a challenge. Show me where fusion was mentioned to even give Beerus a challenge like god? Oh right, it wasn't. That's just your headcannon. Cause Gotenks got his heart stomped out of him. Fusion was dismissed and was never stated to give Beerus a challenge like god. Also the question you asked does not prove Beerus power was RETCONED. How could Beerus power be changed when it was never established or said he will stay stagnate ever? You are reaching on all cylinders at an attempt to make your assumptions look possible, when they aren't.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:25 am

Miracles wrote:No, Super Saiyan god wasn't just the only thing Beerus dreamed about. It was also the ONLY candidate mentioned/prophesied by the Oracle fish to give him a challenge.
No that's not what the fish said. It said that an arch rival would appear in 39 years, it didn't say anything else and because Beerus had dreamt about a Super Saiyan God he put two and two together.

That doesn't mean that Super Saiyan Vegito couldn't have put a better fight.
Also the question you asked does not prove Beerus power was RETCONED. How could Beerus power be changed when it was never established or said he will stay stagnate ever?
Then why aren't you answering it? I never said his power didn't change or stagnated. I asked you if Beerus' power multiplied many times over in a 2 year period which included several months worth of sleep.

That's not a confusing question. You either think that it did or it didn't. You don't need to talk circles around my question, it's just a simple one for you to answer.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:06 am

With regards to the question, Goku and Vegeta have not only gotten a lot strong overall, but they've closed the gap, so to speak, on SSG.

Makes sense, really. Learning how to use that power on their own made them stronger as a whole, but the level itself didn't change.

However, it seems that a perfect Fusion does still yield the same massive boost over its fusees, and with SSG's power being their own now, it seems this proportional boost can overtake SSG and even match up to SSB.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:01 pm

Bullza wrote:
Miracles wrote:No, Super Saiyan god wasn't just the only thing Beerus dreamed about. It was also the ONLY candidate mentioned/prophesied by the Oracle fish to give him a challenge.
No that's not what the fish said. It said that an arch rival would appear in 39 years, it didn't say anything else and because Beerus had dreamt about a Super Saiyan God he put two and two together.

That doesn't mean that Super Saiyan Vegito couldn't have put a better fight.
Stop using headcannon. Arch rival pushed Beerus to use nearly 70% of his power. If Vegetto could of put up a better fight it would have said so but the story didn't. Your Gotenks fusion failed. God was only mentioned to "amuse" Beerus.
Also the question you asked does not prove Beerus power was RETCONED. How could Beerus power be changed when it was never established or said he will stay stagnate ever?

Then why aren't you answering it? I never said his power didn't change or stagnated. I asked you if Beerus' power multiplied many times over in a 2 year period which included several months worth of sleep.

That's not a confusing question. You either think that it did or it didn't. You don't need to talk circles around my question, it's just a simple one for you to answer.
Cause I don't headcannon like you. There is no retcon. You aren't proving anything with meaningless assumptions.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:31 pm

Why I’m still seeing this “headcanon” word being used in a powerlevel discussion? Since when opinions became a version of canon that only exist in fans’ imagination?

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:00 am

Miracles wrote:Arch rival pushed Beerus to use nearly 70% of his power. If Vegetto could of put up a better fight it would have said so but the story didn't.
You're still making assumptions. They never said that Vegito would have put up a better or worse fight. The only thing we know is that it wouldn't have been enough to beat Beerus just like Super Saiyan God wasn't.

Anything else is an assumption. Gotenks is also worthless, I don't even know why you're even attempting to use him as any kind of a point, he was pathetic.
Cause I don't headcannon like you.
I didn't ask if you do or do not. I asked you if Beerus' power multiplied in a couple of years. Why are you so afraid to answer the question?

I already know what you're answer is so why not just say it rather than keep dodging?

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:53 am

Bullza wrote:
Miracles wrote:Arch rival pushed Beerus to use nearly 70% of his power. If Vegetto could of put up a better fight it would have said so but the story didn't.
You're still making assumptions. They never said that Vegito would have put up a better or worse fight. The only thing we know is that it wouldn't have been enough to beat Beerus just like Super Saiyan God wasn't.

Anything else is an assumption. Gotenks is also worthless, I don't even know why you're even attempting to use him as any kind of a point, he was pathetic.
Cause I don't headcannon like you.
I didn't ask if you do or do not. I asked you if Beerus' power multiplied in a couple of years. Why are you so afraid to answer the question?

I already know what you're answer is so why not just say it rather than keep dodging?
No one knows how much Beerus grew nor did we ever see his full power. So no one can answer such a question truthfully cause it will be headcannon.
Just like it's headcannon with you pretending it's a toss up who is stronger between god and fusion Even tho Toriyama said god surpasses everything, quoted by Yamamuro.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:19 am

Miracles wrote: No one knows how much Beerus grew nor did we ever see his full power. So no one can answer such a question truthfully cause it will be headcannon.
Just like it's headcannon with you pretending it's a toss up who is stronger between god and fusion Even tho Toriyama said god surpasses everything, quoted by Yamamuro.
I think you mean “headcanon”. Either way, I don’t understand how this discussion has anything to do with headcanon.

Obviously, Beerus using 70% of his full power doesn’t jive well with him being superior to a form stronger than SSG, which can be strengthened 20 times, unless he is using some special place like RoSaT. So, even if Toriyama imagined that it shouldn’t exist that much of a gap between Beerus and SSG, his vision is outdated.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Bullza » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:16 pm

Miracles wrote:No one knows how much Beerus grew nor did we ever see his full power. So no one can answer such a question truthfully cause it will be headcannon.
Of course nobody knows, I'm just asking you, in your opinion, do you think Beerus' power multiplied many times over in 2 years. Is that something that you think the series intended to be the case?
Just like it's headcannon with you pretending it's a toss up who is stronger between god and fusion.
That's not what head canon is. I'm not making up any tales for the series. Beerus had a dream about fighting Super Saiyan God Goku and that was the arch rival that the Oracle Fish said would appear in 39 years.

That doesn't mean much else than that because he didn't dream about Super Saiyan Vegito.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: No one knows how much Beerus grew nor did we ever see his full power. So no one can answer such a question truthfully cause it will be headcannon.
Just like it's headcannon with you pretending it's a toss up who is stronger between god and fusion Even tho Toriyama said god surpasses everything, quoted by Yamamuro.
I think you mean “headcanon”. Either way, I don’t understand how this discussion has anything to do with headcanon.

Obviously, Beerus using 70% of his full power doesn’t jive well with him being superior to a form stronger than SSG, which can be strengthened 20 times, unless he is using some special place like RoSaT. So, even if Toriyama imagined that it shouldn’t exist that much of a gap between Beerus and SSG, his vision is outdated.
No, Toriyama's vision isn't outdated cause nothing contradicts it but headcanon. That's what the fandom is doing.
Bullza wrote:
Miracles wrote:No one knows how much Beerus grew nor did we ever see his full power. So no one can answer such a question truthfully cause it will be headcannon.
Of course nobody knows, I'm just asking you, in your opinion, do you think Beerus' power multiplied many times over in 2 years. Is that something that you think the series intended to be the case?
Just like it's headcannon with you pretending it's a toss up who is stronger between god and fusion.
That's not what head canon is. I'm not making up any tales for the series. Beerus had a dream about fighting Super Saiyan God Goku and that was the arch rival that the Oracle Fish said would appear in 39 years.

That doesn't mean much else than that because he didn't dream about Super Saiyan Vegito.
Yes, headcanon is you still trying to create a chance for fusion being better than god when the author and narrative didn't intend/hint for that to be the case at all. Considering the canon statements from Toriyama through Yamamurro saying "god surpasses everything" and the oracle fish stating god would be an "arch rival," to push Beerus to "nearly" 70%. THAT'S a SINGULAR opponent. That means fusion wasn't/isn't going to be an arch rival to Beerus and do better than god. If fusion would of been an actually rival to Beerus it would have said so but it didn't. You still trying to push fusion as a better possibility cause it didn't get a direct comparison is illogical and fanboyish at best despite Toriyama's direct description of god to Yamammuro and the story stating a lone ranger could rival Beerus. STILL you ignore outright statements cause they don't fit your headcanon. Like your irrelevant question has no bearing on the story so it's dismissed. Your feelings don't matter and you are just going to have to accept the facts that god > fusion back then.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:26 pm

Miracles wrote: No, Toriyama's vision isn't outdated cause nothing contradicts it but headcanon. That's what the fandom is doing.
Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:56 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: No, Toriyama's vision isn't outdated cause nothing contradicts it but headcanon. That's what the fandom is doing.
Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.
You see the bold. That's headcannon. The growth percentages are are not in the story therefore irrelevant.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:11 pm

Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: No, Toriyama's vision isn't outdated cause nothing contradicts it but headcanon. That's what the fandom is doing.
Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.
You see the bold. That's headcannon. The growth percentages are are not in the story therefore irrelevant.
SSB is demonstrably stronger than SSG, and he's just assuming that it must be at least as strong as SSG, which is undeniably true. That's about as basic of an assumption as possible.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:29 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.
You see the bold. That's headcannon. The growth percentages are are not in the story therefore irrelevant.
SSB is demonstrably stronger than SSG, and he's just assuming that it must be at least as strong as SSG, which is undeniably true. That's about as basic of an assumption as possible.
No one is denying the difference between red and blue. Claiming that "nearly to 70%" back in BOG is somehow negated by future events without any time period, power percentage and Beerus full power defined is headcanon. All we know is that all grow due to power inflation. Any specifics on these other than from the story is headcanon.

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Re: Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 am

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote: You see the bold. That's headcannon. The growth percentages are are not in the story therefore irrelevant.
SSB is demonstrably stronger than SSG, and he's just assuming that it must be at least as strong as SSG, which is undeniably true. That's about as basic of an assumption as possible.
No one is denying the difference between red and blue. Claiming that "nearly to 70%" back in BOG is somehow negated by future events without any time period, power percentage and Beerus full power defined is headcanon. All we know is that all grow due to power inflation. Any specifics on these other than from the story is headcanon.
He just explained how it is impossible to align it with the events. Additionally, it's never even stated in the actual anime/manga themselves, it was just in the movie they had retconned. It was left out for a reason, dude.

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