Zamasu's level of power

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:10 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Vertical wrote:Just a reminder to those who care: Zamasu was scouted for the position of Kaioshin, not born into it as he would have been if he were born of a golden Shin-jin fruit. As such, his "prodigy" status should be measured against similar members of his species: The lower ranking Kaio's (like U7's Kaioken-creator, North Kaio).
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Now, South Supreme Kai was powerful, but I doubt that he was at a SSJ3 level. Perhaps he was, but he was on a low level. Maximum SSJ2 would be my guess. Anyway, Zamasu should fall between him and the supressed Grand Supreme Kai. I am still not certain if Zamasu is stronger to the South Supreme Kai and thats where I need your help!
South Supreme Kai was likely about as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.
Only Shin-jin are able to be Kaioshin, but I don't believe it is predetermined. He's clearly the same race(Shinjin) as of Kaioshin in universe 7.
If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.

Could it be a production error? When Zamasu was introduced, could it be that he was the North Supreme Kai of U10 and simply became an apprentice to Gowasu, the "Grand" Supreme Kai of U10? It sounds far fetched, but why having different hierarchy structures among the gods for each and every universe?
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: I would like to see where Zamasu is placed in comparison to U7's Supreme Kais. The Goku that faced Zamasu has been training for years (count the Hyperbolic Time Chamber as well), has gained god level training by an angel and he has absorbed some god ki in his base, subsequently making him far stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart.
it is assumed that no supreme kai could have drawn the sword Z that only gohan ssj could have taken from the earth. Zamasu was able to fight against an SSJ2 then he is superior to all of them.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:45 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Vertical wrote:Just a reminder to those who care: Zamasu was scouted for the position of Kaioshin, not born into it as he would have been if he were born of a golden Shin-jin fruit. As such, his "prodigy" status should be measured against similar members of his species: The lower ranking Kaio's (like U7's Kaioken-creator, North Kaio).


South Supreme Kai was likely about as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.
Only Shin-jin are able to be Kaioshin, but I don't believe it is predetermined. He's clearly the same race(Shinjin) as of Kaioshin in universe 7.
If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.

Could it be a production error? When Zamasu was introduced, could it be that he was the North Supreme Kai of U10 and simply became an apprentice to Gowasu, the "Grand" Supreme Kai of U10? It sounds far fetched, but why having different hierarchy structures among the gods for each and every universe?
I honestly don't know what you are trying to say

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Only Shin-jin are able to be Kaioshin, but I don't believe it is predetermined. He's clearly the same race(Shinjin) as of Kaioshin in universe 7.
If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.

Could it be a production error? When Zamasu was introduced, could it be that he was the North Supreme Kai of U10 and simply became an apprentice to Gowasu, the "Grand" Supreme Kai of U10? It sounds far fetched, but why having different hierarchy structures among the gods for each and every universe?
I honestly don't know what you are trying to say
What I am questioning is why Zamasu was a Kai.

Do the regular Kais look like the Supreme ones? Despite being of the same species, the Kais lack some characteristics (like a nose for example) in contrast to the Supreme Kais. So much so, that I am not even sure if they are both Sinjins.

If Zamasu shared similarities with Shin (an example for his appearance), then he should have been a Supreme Kai Apprentice all along. But if he shared similarities with King Kai, the South Kai or the other Kais, then he should hold the respective position.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Vertical » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:40 pm

PFM18 wrote:Only Shin-jin are able to be Kaioshin, but I don't believe it is predetermined. He's clearly the same race(Shinjin) as of Kaioshin in universe 7.
Both Kaioshin and Kaio are Shin-jin. They are both born of fruit from the same tree.

Those born of the rare golden fruit become Kaioshin by default. They are special. Zamasu was not born of golden fruit. He earned a chance at the position through his martial prowess and power.

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.
As above, both Kaioshin and Kaio are Shin-jin. One is considered fit to overlook the entire universe and be ranked as the highest deity simply by being born a certain way, while the other is not.

The physical differences are minor. Perhaps Zamasu is simply a "handsome" Kaio... and golden fruit Shin-jin are all "beautiful" by default.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:15 am

The singular thing about Zamasu is indeed the fact that he earned the chance to train as a Supreme Kai despite being amongst the "lesser Kais". This proves that he truly was gifted and a genius. I dare say that, even before becoming Goku Black, even before fusing into Fused Zamasu, and even before merging with the cosmos, he was already the most powerful Kai in history. He was just an apprentice and yet he was literally stronger than most if not every Supreme Kai. That's unprecedented.

Obviously compared to a Saiyan like Goku or even Vegeta, or to a Destroyer, Present Zamasu ultimately is the weakest, but his strength truly was legendary for a Kai. When Shin was an apprentice, he didn't even have a fraction of Zamasu's strength as an apprentice.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:56 pm

Vertical wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.
As above, both Kaioshin and Kaio are Shin-jin. One is considered fit to overlook the entire universe and be ranked as the highest deity simply by being born a certain way, while the other is not.

The physical differences are minor. Perhaps Zamasu is simply a "handsome" Kaio... and golden fruit Shin-jin are all "beautiful" by default.
Hmmm, so are you suggesting that it was just a random event? I can accept that I guess...
SupremeKai25 wrote:The singular thing about Zamasu is indeed the fact that he earned the chance to train as a Supreme Kai despite being amongst the "lesser Kais". This proves that he truly was gifted and a genius. I dare say that, even before becoming Goku Black, even before fusing into Fused Zamasu, and even before merging with the cosmos, he was already the most powerful Kai in history. He was just an apprentice and yet he was literally stronger than most if not every Supreme Kai. That's unprecedented.

Obviously compared to a Saiyan like Goku or even Vegeta, or to a Destroyer, Present Zamasu ultimately is the weakest, but his strength truly was legendary for a Kai. When Shin was an apprentice, he didn't even have a fraction of Zamasu's strength as an apprentice.
I am inclined to believe that you are correct. Well, Zamasu is clearly much more unique than what we (at least I) had in mind. Good thing I created this thread. Nonetheless, I would like to know, do you think that Zamasu could be stronger than the South Supreme Kai at peak power? If yes, could Zamasu be above even than the Grand Supreme Kai, at his maximum potential?
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:05 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Vertical wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.
As above, both Kaioshin and Kaio are Shin-jin. One is considered fit to overlook the entire universe and be ranked as the highest deity simply by being born a certain way, while the other is not.

The physical differences are minor. Perhaps Zamasu is simply a "handsome" Kaio... and golden fruit Shin-jin are all "beautiful" by default.
Hmmm, so are you suggesting that it was just a random event? I can accept that I guess...
SupremeKai25 wrote:The singular thing about Zamasu is indeed the fact that he earned the chance to train as a Supreme Kai despite being amongst the "lesser Kais". This proves that he truly was gifted and a genius. I dare say that, even before becoming Goku Black, even before fusing into Fused Zamasu, and even before merging with the cosmos, he was already the most powerful Kai in history. He was just an apprentice and yet he was literally stronger than most if not every Supreme Kai. That's unprecedented.

Obviously compared to a Saiyan like Goku or even Vegeta, or to a Destroyer, Present Zamasu ultimately is the weakest, but his strength truly was legendary for a Kai. When Shin was an apprentice, he didn't even have a fraction of Zamasu's strength as an apprentice.
I am inclined to believe that you are correct. Well, Zamasu is clearly much more unique than what we (at least I) had in mind. Good thing I created this thread. Nonetheless, I would like to know, do you think that Zamasu could be stronger than the South Supreme Kai at peak power? If yes, could Zamasu be above even than the Grand Supreme Kai, at his maximum potential?
Indeeed he is. Shin even stated in the manga that Zamasu's skills and abilities were almost certainly peerless in comparison to those of all the Supreme Kais from the remaining twelve universes. And he was just an apprentice and lower Kai, not even a fully-fledged Supreme Kai.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:33 pm

One thing I like to point out is that present Zamasu lost his duel with Goku because his mind wasnt in the fight 100%. He even says so himself in a later episode.

So, Zamasu is close if not equal to SS2 Goku and that makes him over 100 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who was already stronger than the South and Grand Kaioshins.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:In the anime :
Present Zamasu is as strong as Goku SSJ.
Future Zamasu seems to be as strong as Goku SSJB (which makes no sense), but it's there.

In the manga :
Present Zamasu owns Kibito and Shin says that he will be the most talented Kaio Shin.
Future Zamasu is less stronger than Future Trunks.

and that's about it.
I think there are severl factors to explain why Anime F. Zamasu is so strong. Firstly Goku said Zamasu had the potential to be a rival to Beerus one day, much like Goku himself. So if he kept up his training he could have gotten a lot stronger over time. There are also other factors such how much time has passed since he joined Black and what did he get up to during his downtime while purging other planets. Plus it’s possible his immortal body allows him allows him to draw out a greater amount of power since he no longer fears hurting himself and is mostly indifferent, or getting off on, the pain.
How strong is Merged Zamasu?

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by BrolyKale » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:32 pm

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:In the anime :
Present Zamasu is as strong as Goku SSJ.
Future Zamasu seems to be as strong as Goku SSJB (which makes no sense), but it's there.

In the manga :
Present Zamasu owns Kibito and Shin says that he will be the most talented Kaio Shin.
Future Zamasu is less stronger than Future Trunks.

and that's about it.
I think there are severl factors to explain why Anime F. Zamasu is so strong. Firstly Goku said Zamasu had the potential to be a rival to Beerus one day, much like Goku himself. So if he kept up his training he could have gotten a lot stronger over time. There are also other factors such how much time has passed since he joined Black and what did he get up to during his downtime while purging other planets. Plus it’s possible his immortal body allows him allows him to draw out a greater amount of power since he no longer fears hurting himself and is mostly indifferent, or getting off on, the pain.
How strong is Merged Zamasu?
In the anime he is around SSJB level and in the manga he is less stronger than Vegetto SSJB.
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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:31 pm

Soo, zamasu.
Anime present zamasu was in between post God ssj2 goku, so he would stomp easily all of z and half of gt at least speaking of raw power. Future zamasu is considerable at least low ssg tier, maybe ssj3 tier.
Manga zamasu Is different.
The only feat we have from present zamasu ion the manga is beating kibito, thing that even base buu saga vegeta would have done with ease. So, being super, he's maybe rusty base gohan tier. Future zamasu is low ssj3 tier , considering goku was stomping him in God and said that trunks would have been enough to beat him. Let's say God goku >>ussj2 trunks>ssj3 goku >future zamasu>>>>>base goku>>>>>rusty gohan >present zamasu in the manga
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:26 pm

Present Zamasu had trouble with Kibito and regarded him as "amazingly strong"; he was also surprised anyone could be stronger than "you guys", referring to Kibito and Kaioshin. We know from Daizenshuu 7 that Kibito could "give a difficult fight to" base Gohan from the Buu arc. So Zamasu should be about that strong.

Future Zamasu was stronger after 20 years, but not by a whole lot and was still not much by the standards of any relevant fighter from Perfect Cell and onward. He admitted that he was far weaker than Goku, who didn't deem anything beyond first-stage Super Saiyan as necessary to deal with him. He was probably around SS Goku's power, since he was able to hurt him with his blows after using paralysis, but anything beyond that would crush him like a bug; Goku said that Trunks alone would have easily defeated him without help from Black, the same Trunks that barely a year ago had trouble with Dabra.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:00 pm

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:In the anime :
Present Zamasu is as strong as Goku SSJ.
Future Zamasu seems to be as strong as Goku SSJB (which makes no sense), but it's there.

In the manga :
Present Zamasu owns Kibito and Shin says that he will be the most talented Kaio Shin.
Future Zamasu is less stronger than Future Trunks.

and that's about it.
I think there are severl factors to explain why Anime F. Zamasu is so strong. Firstly Goku said Zamasu had the potential to be a rival to Beerus one day, much like Goku himself. So if he kept up his training he could have gotten a lot stronger over time. There are also other factors such how much time has passed since he joined Black and what did he get up to during his downtime while purging other planets. Plus it’s possible his immortal body allows him allows him to draw out a greater amount of power since he no longer fears hurting himself and is mostly indifferent, or getting off on, the pain.
How strong is Merged Zamasu?
Regular one is Blue Kaioken [2-10?] tier.

Corrupted one is high GoD tier.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:15 pm

Anime Present Zamasu: Post-God ritual, Post Whis-training SSJ2 level
Anime Future Zamasu: At least a little stronger than RoF Golden Freeza
Anime Halo Merged Zamasu: Around Black arc SSBKKx10 Goku level
Anime Grotesque Merged Zamasu: Equal to Black SSB Vegito
Manga Present Zamasu: On par with Shin
Manga Future Zamasu: Buu arc SSJ2 level
Manga Merged Zamasu: Mastered SSB Goku level
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 pm

Present Zamasu: about SS2 strong.
Probably about Super\Perfect Cell strong, given he was still obviously weaker than a Goku who already surpassed Super Perfect Cell years before.
No reason to believe Zamasu Saga Goku SS2 is absurdly stronger than earlier SS2 incarnations.

Future Zamasu: more or less the same. Might have improved over the years of difference, but no reason to believe he became MUCH stronger.
He became immortal though, which probably let him use more power and be more reckless resulting in a greater resulting effective might

Fused Zamasu (manga): weaker than Complete\Kaioken Goku, but being immortal made him able to sustain the fight

Fused Zamasu (Halo): probably about Kaioken Goku

Fused Zamasu (Grotesque): obviously weaker than Vegetto Blue, but immortality kept him in the fight. Probably about Kaioken x10 Goku

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Saturnine » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:19 am

The problem with saying that base Goku and Vegeta are >>> all of Z in base is that they're using regular SSj forms constnatly, while RoF established that the only multiplier they can put on that OP state makes their hair blue. Blue should be 50x Saiyan Beyond God if you like, not regular SSj. That would make the power inflation slide even further towards complete insanity than it already has. Call it bias but there are out-of-universe hints that Saiyan Beyond God has been retired.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:36 pm

Saturnine wrote:The problem with saying that base Goku and Vegeta are >>> all of Z in base is that they're using regular SSj forms constnatly, while RoF established that the only multiplier they can put on that OP state makes their hair blue. Blue should be 50x Saiyan Beyond God if you like, not regular SSj. That would make the power inflation slide even further towards complete insanity than it already has. Call it bias but there are out-of-universe hints that Saiyan Beyond God has been retired.
Your kind of conflating Saiyan Beyond God and just having a really strong Base form. SBG was very clearly removed from Super and exclusive to the RoF movie. However, Goku's adaptation to the SSG power in BoG still happened and still applies in Super. In that case, Goku's SSJ was stronger than SSG was, so by extension his Base form is also extremely strong. Therefore, Goku and vegeta's Base form is very powerful but they are not inhibited from using the normal golden forms or gaining normal multipliers. In other words:

Goku SSJ(post-ritual)>BoG SSG>Base Goku(post-ritual)

and this was explicitly stated so it isn't really necessarily something that is disputable.

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:31 pm

this was explicitly stated
Where?
Sure, Goku might have got a base form upgrade after the ritual, but nothing SHOWN suggests he kept that power... not STABLY.
We are shown situations both where he's extremely powerful in Base and others where he's normally powerful, same with Vegeta.

Sometime Goku and Vegeta are written as Beyond God in their Base Form(cfr. Copy-Vegeta), others they are written as normally powerful(cfr. Future Trunks but also ToP)

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Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Saturnine » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:40 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
this was explicitly stated
Where?
Sure, Goku might have got a base form upgrade after the ritual, but nothing SHOWN suggests he kept that power... not STABLY.
We are shown situations both where he's extremely powerful in Base and others where he's normally powerful, same with Vegeta.

Sometime Goku and Vegeta are written as Beyond God in their Base Form(cfr. Copy-Vegeta), others they are written as normally powerful(cfr. Future Trunks but also ToP)
That is exactly what I'm noticing too, especially since the manga corroborates this. Of course I know the manga is a separate continuity and all, but the powerscaling hints inside it are actually quite welcome, such as establishing that SSj Blue is less than 10x stronger than SSj God. Such a framework would be much welcome in the anime too.

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