Zamasu's level of power

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:24 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
this was explicitly stated
Where?
Sure, Goku might have got a base form upgrade after the ritual, but nothing SHOWN suggests he kept that power... not STABLY.
We are shown situations both where he's extremely powerful in Base and others where he's normally powerful, same with Vegeta.
I was referring to the fact that it was explicitly stated multiple times that SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG by the end of BoG. And no, we are not given any indication to believe that he lost that power, in fact the Whis training sequence very heavily implies otherwise.

You're going to have to give examples of when his Base isn't portrayed as that powerful.
Sometimes Goku and Vegeta are written as Beyond God in their Base Form(cfr. Copy-Vegeta), others they are written as normally powerful(cfr. Future Trunks but also ToP
)

How does being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks imply he is beyond God? How does the sequence fighting Future Trunks imply that he isnt as strong as he was portrayed in BoG?

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:57 am

One thing is for certain. Even if Goku and Vegeta were SBGs (and I think that they were in the entirety of Super) many of their opponents were given absurd power-ups to keep up with the main characters. Because, if we treated them as SBGs with all this training and the additional forms of God and Blue, they would reck everyone below Toppo's level in the ToP in a fashion similar to that of Jiren.

Ultimately, the plot brings forth the requirements for someone's power. Unfortunately, that is a double-edged knife.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:52 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:57 am
One thing is for certain. Even if Goku and Vegeta were SBGs (and I think that they were in the entirety of Super) many of their opponents were given absurd power-ups to keep up with the main characters. Because, if we treated them as SBGs with all this training and the additional forms of God and Blue, they would reck everyone below Toppo's level in the ToP in a fashion similar to that of Jiren.

Ultimately, the plot brings forth the requirements for someone's power. Unfortunately, that is a double-edged knife.
You realize that "Saiyan Beyond God" refers to God Ki in their Base form right? That has never been the case in DBS. It only applied to the RoF movie.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:43 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:52 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:57 am
One thing is for certain. Even if Goku and Vegeta were SBGs (and I think that they were in the entirety of Super) many of their opponents were given absurd power-ups to keep up with the main characters. Because, if we treated them as SBGs with all this training and the additional forms of God and Blue, they would reck everyone below Toppo's level in the ToP in a fashion similar to that of Jiren.

Ultimately, the plot brings forth the requirements for someone's power. Unfortunately, that is a double-edged knife.
You realize that "Saiyan Beyond God" refers to God Ki in their Base form right? That has never been the case in DBS. It only applied to the RoF movie.
Indeed, I am aware of that. However, from my point of view god ki was never the case. The way I understand SBG is different. After reverting from SSJG and after training with Whis, Goku and Vegeta were taught how to not let their ki "leak" from their bodies, in order to boost their powers. Due to their godly training, Goku and Vegeta were a le to absorb a specific quantity of god ki, but not enough to be considered gods. Besides, even in the movie when Goku went Blue, Krillin said that he couldn't read his power anymore, suggesting that while in "Base" Goku didn't utilize god ki.

Basically, a Saiyan Beyond God has some "god essence" within him. That means that they have absorbed enough god ki so they can get a boost in their overall and Base power, without becoming full-fledged deities. Should they achieve that, they would acquire a "Base" form similar to Toppo's powered-up state from the manga, known as the "Aura of a God", which would translate into a Base form with 100% god ki, basically a SSJG in Base, but without the same power. SSJG still has a "multiplier".
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:00 pm

Grand Marshall 1 wrote:Indeed, I am aware of that. However, from my point of view god ki was never the case.
This isn't a matter of point of view. When the "Saiyan Beyond God" state was introduced it was literally described as "having the power of a God without changing form." Considering that the words "ki" and "power" are interchangeable in this series, it was definitely referring to God Ki.

It's not really open to interpretation. There's either God Ki, or not God Ki. Goku has God Ki in RoF, nobody could sense him, but in the RoF arc in Super, he is sensed and everyone is shocked when they can't sense him in SSB.
Besides, even in the movie when Goku went Blue, Krillin said that he couldn't read his power anymore, suggesting that while in "Base" Goku didn't utilize god ki.
That's not true. That scene doesn't appear in the movie at all, it is only in the DBS anime. In the movie, they don't screen towards the peanut gallery at all during that sequence.
Basically, a Saiyan Beyond God has some "god essence" within him. That means that they have absorbed enough god ki so they can get a boost in their overall and Base power, without becoming full-fledged deities. Should they achieve that, they would acquire a "Base" form similar to Toppo's powered-up state from the manga, known as the "Aura of a God", which would translate into a Base form with 100% god ki, basically a SSJG in Base, but without the same power. SSJG still has a "multiplier".
No offense, but this is all head canon and isn't' really supported.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:24 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:00 pm
Grand Marshall 1 wrote:Indeed, I am aware of that. However, from my point of view god ki was never the case.
This isn't a matter of point of view. When the "Saiyan Beyond God" state was introduced it was literally described as "having the power of a God without changing form." Considering that the words "ki" and "power" are interchangeable in this series, it was definitely referring to God Ki.

It's not really open to interpretation. There's either God Ki, or not God Ki. Goku has God Ki in RoF, nobody could sense him, but in the RoF arc in Super, he is sensed and everyone is shocked when they can't sense him in SSB.
Besides, even in the movie when Goku went Blue, Krillin said that he couldn't read his power anymore, suggesting that while in "Base" Goku didn't utilize god ki.
That's not true. That scene doesn't appear in the movie at all, it is only in the DBS anime. In the movie, they don't screen towards the peanut gallery at all during that sequence.
Basically, a Saiyan Beyond God has some "god essence" within him. That means that they have absorbed enough god ki so they can get a boost in their overall and Base power, without becoming full-fledged deities. Should they achieve that, they would acquire a "Base" form similar to Toppo's powered-up state from the manga, known as the "Aura of a God", which would translate into a Base form with 100% god ki, basically a SSJG in Base, but without the same power. SSJG still has a "multiplier".
No offense, but this is all head canon and isn't' really supported.
No offense taken. Indeed most of these are my opinion. To be honest I didn't remember if it was stated in the movie or not (the Krillin part).

I simply want to form a more comprehensive view of the franchise. I try to back my arguments as much as possible, but not for making my head cannon, rather for establishing a solid perspective for anything going on with the series.

Besides, sometimes the fanbase affects you and if something spreads between fans, you too, might adopt it as "official". Which is probably how I got the "god essence" part going on. Nonetheless, in my theory SBG would only be a 20 times boost on the user's base. Nothing important for Dragon Ball, but of course, nothing official either.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3118
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:00 pm
This isn't a matter of point of view. When the "Saiyan Beyond God" state was introduced it was literally described as "having the power of a God without changing form." Considering that the words "ki" and "power" are interchangeable in this series, it was definitely referring to God Ki.

It's not really open to interpretation. There's either God Ki, or not God Ki. Goku has God Ki in RoF, nobody could sense him, but in the RoF arc in Super, he is sensed and everyone is shocked when they can't sense him in SSB.
There is nothing supporting “Base” Goku having God ki that time. The pamphlet was referring to the form’s powerlevel.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 pm
PFM18 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:00 pm
This isn't a matter of point of view. When the "Saiyan Beyond God" state was introduced it was literally described as "having the power of a God without changing form." Considering that the words "ki" and "power" are interchangeable in this series, it was definitely referring to God Ki.

It's not really open to interpretation. There's either God Ki, or not God Ki. Goku has God Ki in RoF, nobody could sense him, but in the RoF arc in Super, he is sensed and everyone is shocked when they can't sense him in SSB.
There is nothing supporting “Base” Goku having God ki that time. The pamphlet was referring to the form’s powerlevel.
No, the verbatim that was used clearly referred to God Ki, as I already explained earlier. The fact that this is a Base form with God Ki is what necessitated giving the "form" a name in the first place. Why would they use a new form name to describe Goku just being stronger? That's insane. Why would nobody have sensed Base Goku in the RoF movie? Why would there be a scene where people comment on THEN being unable to sense Goku be exclusive to the anime? (Why wouldn't they also comment in the movie that Goku had become unable to be sensed.) All signs are pointing to, and supporting that Goku's Base had God Ki in the movie but not following that point. Not that any other signs are really needed when the promotional material plainly says it anyway.

User avatar
Darkprince410
I Live Here
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:01 am

Vertical wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:40 pm
PFM18 wrote:Only Shin-jin are able to be Kaioshin, but I don't believe it is predetermined. He's clearly the same race(Shinjin) as of Kaioshin in universe 7.
Both Kaioshin and Kaio are Shin-jin. They are both born of fruit from the same tree.

Those born of the rare golden fruit become Kaioshin by default. They are special. Zamasu was not born of golden fruit. He earned a chance at the position through his martial prowess and power.

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:If so, please help me understand why the heck was Zamasu a Kai. If he was a Shinjin meant to become a Supreme Kai, why did he fill that role? As a species, the Shinjin that are Kais have a great number of differences with the Supreme Kai ones.
As above, both Kaioshin and Kaio are Shin-jin. One is considered fit to overlook the entire universe and be ranked as the highest deity simply by being born a certain way, while the other is not.

The physical differences are minor. Perhaps Zamasu is simply a "handsome" Kaio... and golden fruit Shin-jin are all "beautiful" by default.
I think it's a lot simpler than you guys are making it out to be. Here is exactly what Toriyama said on the matter:
Inside the big ball I mentioned before, there is a planet, called the World Core [Kaishin-sei] where the Kaiō are born and raised. It’s a world like a gigantic Planet Kaiō, and Kaiō-sama and his peers are born as Core People [Shin-jin] from the fruit of the World Core’s giant World Tree [Kaiju]. The planet’s population is about 80. Core People are neither male nor female, and their average lifespan is said to be about 75,000 years. At a castle that’s like a school, they learn a variety of things, and live an easygoing life; however, if a Kaiō dies on one of the Kaiō Planets, the next Kaiō is chosen from among them by lottery. However, a Kaiōshin is chosen only from Core People who are born from a special golden fruit, which rarely occurs. In addition, there are occasionally delinquent Core People with evil hearts; these ones fall under the Makaiō.
What I gathered from it, and what I see explains it the simplest, is this. Those born from the regular fruit can only become Kaiou. Kaioushin can only be chosen from those born from a golden fruit. However, nothing says that a Shin-jin burn from a golden fruit can't become a Kaiou. It doesn't say that those from the golden fruit have to become a Kaioushin, just that only those born from a golden fruit can become one.

So I see it something like this. Zamasu was born from a golden fruit, but none of the Kaioushin positions were open, so he took a position as U10's North Kaiou position. Then he accepted the position of Gowasu's apprentice when Gowasu started aiming toward retirement, being possibly the only Shin-jin available for the position due to being born from a golden fruit.
PFM18 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:41 pm


No, the verbatim that was used clearly referred to God Ki, as I already explained earlier. The fact that this is a Base form with God Ki is what necessitated giving the "form" a name in the first place. Why would they use a new form name to describe Goku just being stronger? That's insane. Why would nobody have sensed Base Goku in the RoF movie? Why would there be a scene where people comment on THEN being unable to sense Goku be exclusive to the anime? (Why wouldn't they also comment in the movie that Goku had become unable to be sensed.) All signs are pointing to, and supporting that Goku's Base had God Ki in the movie but not following that point. Not that any other signs are really needed when the promotional material plainly says it anyway.
The thing is though is that it's only given a name in Dragon Ball Heroes, and thus the excuse could be just to have another card to put out. It's not like there's information from Volume F or anything else suggesting that Goku and Vegeta had god ki possessing base form. If it weren't for the card, there'd be nothing within the story indicating or suggesting that Goku was in anything other than a normal ki base form. Likewise, you ask why did they have a scene in the anime pointing out that people couldn't sense his ki anymore, but nothing like that in the movie. My counter is this. Why is there not a scene in the movie of people pointing out they can't sense Goku's ki at all in his base? Or that he appears far stronger than what they can sense from him? I mean, he fought Freeza in his base form, and they can sense Freeza's strength well enough. If Goku was using god ki to fight so well, then to the likes of Gohan and the others, it'd be him fighting on par with Freeza without putting out near as much ki (if any at all) as Freeza is.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3118
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:01 am

PFM18 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:41 pm
the verbatim that was used clearly referred to God Ki, as I already explained earlier.
It’s talking about power, the same verbatim Beerus used to tell that Goku didn’t lost SSGod power despite the form’s time limit expiring. The only forms that have God ki are SSGod and SSBlue.

User avatar
DragonBallFan
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:34 am

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by DragonBallFan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:47 am

Zamasu is pure of heart, he believed he was doing something for the greater good, he saw mortals as evil creatures, in a way, he's a villain to Son and Vegeta, but to the audience he can be seen as some what of a protagonist, it depends on what kind of view you have and which kind of lenses you want to look at it through. People say he's evil, but how come? Frieza murdered people without caring, he doesn't have a goal except to make others suffer before him. Zamasu on the other hand believes he's doing this for the greater good, he's 'cleansing' the universe of what he sees as 'evil'. You've got to try look at it through his eyes.

I guess it's kind of similar to how Gogeta was in a way the villain of DBS: Broly and Broly was the protagonist.

User avatar
DragonBallFan
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:34 am

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by DragonBallFan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:02 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:28 pm
Now, Trunks managed to kill Dabura but couldn't save Shin, therefore Trunks being somewhere around Gohan and Majin Vegeta, wouldn't have lasted long against any Majin Buu... one year later he had his share of zenkais and some training with Vegeta, that would place him around what? SS3 Goku from Z? I'm taking this huge leap because in the manga he was a match for Goku(I know we can't reconciliate anime and manga) but I don't dare taking Trunks from slightly above Dabura to stomping Gotenks ss3 just from zenkais and a spar with Vegeta. And if SS2 Trunks being Kid Buu or Super Buu tier(if we go a little crazy) "defeated" Future Zamasu, then Present Zamasu, 20 years ago Zamasu, should be around that as well.
I'd say Future Trunks would be way stronger than Z SSJ3 Son, for the reason that when he fort Son in his SSJ2 form against SSJ3, he pushed him back and scared him into going God for a split second, that's very impressive there, I'd say if I were to rate his power, it'd go like this:


Future Trunks(DBS Manga) = 15 - 16

Vegito = 10

Buuhan = 5

,Just because he landed a few hits on Black in the manga as well, but was quickly overwhelmed, I doubt Z Vegito would have done much against Black at that time, especially which he had the zenkais and accessed his version of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:44 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:The thing is though is that it's only given a name in Dragon Ball Heroes, and thus the excuse could be just to have another card to put out.
No, that's wrong. It was first given a name in the promotional material for the RoF movie several years ago. The name was just recently used again in Heroes, but it wasn't the first use of that name. It was given in a promotional pamphlet for the RoF movie where they described this new "form" and it's relation to the new state of SSGSS.
Why is there not a scene in the movie of people pointing out they can't sense Goku's ki at all in his base? Or that he appears far stronger than what they can sense from him? I mean, he fought Freeza in his base form, and they can sense Freeza's strength well enough. If Goku was using god ki to fight so well, then to the likes of Gohan and the others, it'd be him fighting on par with Freeza without putting out near as much ki (if any at all) as Freeza is.
That's simply not how God Ki works. It isn't that he isn't "putting out as much ki" it''s that they can't sense his ki whatsoever. Sure, given what is said in the promotional material, it's strange they don't explicitly comment that they can't sense him in Base, but they still ultimately NEVER sense him in Base in the movie, never comment about being unable to sense him now in SSB, and then in the anime adaptation both of those things are very clearly and intentionally changed. Then we see normal golden SSJ in the next arc, which further corroborates this. Because "Saiyan Beyond God" was supposed to be a state that would invalidate and replace the previous forms. The premise of SSB being "God Ki+SSJ" stayed the same, but the other SSJ's were still accessed because they didn't access God Ki int their Base.
Hugo Boss wrote: It’s talking about power, the same verbatim Beerus used to tell that Goku didn’t lost SSGod power despite the form’s time limit expiring. The only forms that have God ki are SSGod and SSBlue.
It wasn't the same verbatim at all. In BoG Beerus stressed that Goku had just "made that power his own" clearly referring to the level of power and not the type of ki itself. In the promotional material it is described as "the power of a God without changing form." This clearly referencing the fact that prior to this point it was impossible to use God Ki, "without changing form", considering that SSG was required to utilize God Ki before.

This along with the entirety of the RoF movie corroborates that the form had God Ki, and the changes made in the RoF arc very clearly and intentionally distinguish between Goku's Base having God Ki in the movie but not in the anime adaptation arc.

But since you completely ignored the rest of my post that explained that, I'm going to repost it:
The fact that this is a Base form with God Ki is what necessitated giving the "form" a name in the first place. Why would they use a new form name to describe Goku just being stronger? That's insane. Why would nobody have sensed Base Goku in the RoF movie? Why would there be a scene where people comment on THEN being unable to sense Goku be exclusive to the anime? (Why wouldn't they also comment in the movie that Goku had become unable to be sensed.) All signs are pointing to, and supporting that Goku's Base had God Ki in the movie but not following that point. Not that any other signs are really needed when the promotional material plainly says it anyway.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3118
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:38 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:44 pm
It wasn't the same verbatim at all. In BoG Beerus stressed that Goku had just "made that power his own" clearly referring to the level of power and not the type of ki itself. In the promotional material it is described as "the power of a God without changing form." This clearly referencing the fact that prior to this point it was impossible to use God Ki, "without changing form", considering that SSG was required to utilize God Ki before.
Again, it’s talking about “power”. You are the one saying that power means two different things in those events.

User avatar
Darkprince410
I Live Here
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:51 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:44 pm
Darkprince410 wrote:The thing is though is that it's only given a name in Dragon Ball Heroes, and thus the excuse could be just to have another card to put out.
No, that's wrong. It was first given a name in the promotional material for the RoF movie several years ago. The name was just recently used again in Heroes, but it wasn't the first use of that name. It was given in a promotional pamphlet for the RoF movie where they described this new "form" and it's relation to the new state of SSGSS.
Why is there not a scene in the movie of people pointing out they can't sense Goku's ki at all in his base? Or that he appears far stronger than what they can sense from him? I mean, he fought Freeza in his base form, and they can sense Freeza's strength well enough. If Goku was using god ki to fight so well, then to the likes of Gohan and the others, it'd be him fighting on par with Freeza without putting out near as much ki (if any at all) as Freeza is.
That's simply not how God Ki works. It isn't that he isn't "putting out as much ki" it''s that they can't sense his ki whatsoever. Sure, given what is said in the promotional material, it's strange they don't explicitly comment that they can't sense him in Base, but they still ultimately NEVER sense him in Base in the movie, never comment about being unable to sense him now in SSB, and then in the anime adaptation both of those things are very clearly and intentionally changed. Then we see normal golden SSJ in the next arc, which further corroborates this. Because "Saiyan Beyond God" was supposed to be a state that would invalidate and replace the previous forms. The premise of SSB being "God Ki+SSJ" stayed the same, but the other SSJ's were still accessed because they didn't access God Ki int their Base.

You'll have to show this promotional material then, because none of the pamphlets or anything else promotional wise that I can remember from Revival of F ever called it that. "Saiyan Beyond God" was never used until Heroes as far as I can tell.

That's what I mean though. If Goku had access to godly ki in his base form, and was using that to fight against Freeza, to those that aren't able to sense godly ki, it would seem to them like Goku isn't putting out as much ki as Freeza is, but somehow is fighting evenly with him. If Freeza were a 10, and Goku was using 50% godly ki, to the likes of Gohan and the others he'd be emitting ki half as strong as Freeza was, yet was equal to him, which seems like it'd warrant a mention.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:56 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:44 pm
Darkprince410 wrote:The thing is though is that it's only given a name in Dragon Ball Heroes, and thus the excuse could be just to have another card to put out.
No, that's wrong. It was first given a name in the promotional material for the RoF movie several years ago. The name was just recently used again in Heroes, but it wasn't the first use of that name. It was given in a promotional pamphlet for the RoF movie where they described this new "form" and it's relation to the new state of SSGSS.
Why is there not a scene in the movie of people pointing out they can't sense Goku's ki at all in his base? Or that he appears far stronger than what they can sense from him? I mean, he fought Freeza in his base form, and they can sense Freeza's strength well enough. If Goku was using god ki to fight so well, then to the likes of Gohan and the others, it'd be him fighting on par with Freeza without putting out near as much ki (if any at all) as Freeza is.
That's simply not how God Ki works. It isn't that he isn't "putting out as much ki" it''s that they can't sense his ki whatsoever. Sure, given what is said in the promotional material, it's strange they don't explicitly comment that they can't sense him in Base, but they still ultimately NEVER sense him in Base in the movie, never comment about being unable to sense him now in SSB, and then in the anime adaptation both of those things are very clearly and intentionally changed. Then we see normal golden SSJ in the next arc, which further corroborates this. Because "Saiyan Beyond God" was supposed to be a state that would invalidate and replace the previous forms. The premise of SSB being "God Ki+SSJ" stayed the same, but the other SSJ's were still accessed because they didn't access God Ki int their Base.
Hugo Boss wrote: It’s talking about power, the same verbatim Beerus used to tell that Goku didn’t lost SSGod power despite the form’s time limit expiring. The only forms that have God ki are SSGod and SSBlue.
It wasn't the same verbatim at all. In BoG Beerus stressed that Goku had just "made that power his own" clearly referring to the level of power and not the type of ki itself. In the promotional material it is described as "the power of a God without changing form." This clearly referencing the fact that prior to this point it was impossible to use God Ki, "without changing form", considering that SSG was required to utilize God Ki before.

This along with the entirety of the RoF movie corroborates that the form had God Ki, and the changes made in the RoF arc very clearly and intentionally distinguish between Goku's Base having God Ki in the movie but not in the anime adaptation arc.

But since you completely ignored the rest of my post that explained that, I'm going to repost it:
The fact that this is a Base form with God Ki is what necessitated giving the "form" a name in the first place. Why would they use a new form name to describe Goku just being stronger? That's insane. Why would nobody have sensed Base Goku in the RoF movie? Why would there be a scene where people comment on THEN being unable to sense Goku be exclusive to the anime? (Why wouldn't they also comment in the movie that Goku had become unable to be sensed.) All signs are pointing to, and supporting that Goku's Base had God Ki in the movie but not following that point. Not that any other signs are really needed when the promotional material plainly says it anyway.
So how would you explain the fight between Goku and Freeza in the anime? Freeza trained for months and he potentially reached a level reminiscent of the Namek Saga, with him being tens of times stronger than Base Goku. He even went 50% Final to ensure a swift victory.

However, Goku was able to counter while in "Base". If God ki absorbtion was a thing ONLY in the movie, then why did Beerus mention the SSJG merging with Goku's power in the respective arc?

I assure you that even after the training with Whis, Goku nor Vegeta would be able to match a trained 50% Final Freeza in Base that easily. Not to mention that Goku and Vegeta underwent the same training with Whis in the movie, with the anime simply showing us more of what they did while being there.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:06 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:38 pm
PFM18 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:44 pm
It wasn't the same verbatim at all. In BoG Beerus stressed that Goku had just "made that power his own" clearly referring to the level of power and not the type of ki itself. In the promotional material it is described as "the power of a God without changing form." This clearly referencing the fact that prior to this point it was impossible to use God Ki, "without changing form", considering that SSG was required to utilize God Ki before.
Again, it’s talking about “power”. You are the one saying that power means two different things in those events.
You do realize that the words "ki" and "power" are usually interchangeable right? As in, a scouter's "power level" is simply the ki reading at that particular time. The phrases "highest ki" and "most powerful" are used as synonyms as one another all the time.

And again, the same verbatim was NOT used in both cases. in Beerus's case, he repeatedly emphasized that Goku had simply "made that power his own" which is completely different.
You'll have to show this promotional material then, because none of the pamphlets or anything else promotional wise that I can remember from Revival of F ever called it that. "Saiyan Beyond God" was never used until Heroes as far as I can tell.
I'll have to find it, I'll get back to you on that eventually.
That's what I mean though. If Goku had access to godly ki in his base form, and was using that to fight against Freeza, to those that aren't able to sense godly ki, it would seem to them like Goku isn't putting out as much ki as Freeza is, but somehow is fighting evenly with him. If Freeza were a 10, and Goku was using 50% godly ki, to the likes of Gohan and the others he'd be emitting ki half as strong as Freeza was, yet was equal to him, which seems like it'd warrant a mention
They wouldn't be able to sense Goku at all, and that concept wouldn't necessarily be foreign to them because of what happened with Super Saiyan God in the first place. When Goku was fighting Beerus as a SSG, nobody was worried that he wasn't putting out very much ki. Like I said, at worst, this is misleading in the movie, but EVERYTHING surrounding it corroborates the premise like I have already explained.
Grand Marshall 1 wrote: However, Goku was able to counter while in "Base". If God ki absorbtion was a thing ONLY in the movie, then why did Beerus mention the SSJG merging with Goku's power in the respective arc?
All I'm saying is the use of God Ki in Base form is exclusive to the RoF movie. That doesn't really change anything about what happened in BoG. As Beerus explained, Goku's body had learned from the experience of having that power, it adapted to it, made it his own, and merged it into himself. In other words, he just got a big power-up because he's a fighting genius. It's that simple. Once he dropped out of SSG, he was using normal ki again, and everybody could sense him again. He was using normal ki, unlike in Base in the RoF movie.

The only difference is that in the movie continuity, Goku and Vegeta learned how to harness God Ki in their time training with Whis in their Base form, and so turning SSJ would result in SSB. In the anime, Goku and Vegeta just got stronger in their training with Whis, and learned how to harness God Ki to use their God forms of SSG and SSB. And so, they were able to use their normal SSJ forms, they had the same Base form, and they had SSB by using the combination of SSJ and God Ki. Where as in the movie, they just had Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Blue. All of this is a result of the discrepancy of Goku and Vegeta learning how to use God Ki in their Base form when they trained with Whis.
I assure you that even after the training with Whis, Goku nor Vegeta would be able to match a trained 50% Final Freeza in Base that easily. Not to mention that Goku and Vegeta underwent the same training with Whis in the movie, with the anime simply showing us more of what they did while being there.
You assure me that based on what? What is preventing Goku and Vegeta's normal Base forms from becoming strong enough to fight Freeza in their Base form? Goku had adapted to SSG in such a way that his SSJ was stated to have surpassed his SSG form from moments prior. Obviously, his Base form must have gotten pretty damn strong if his SSJ was THAT strong. (Because they scale with each other) Vegeta matched that power by training with Whis for 6 months first. Then, they both train with Whis together for another 6 months.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3118
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Zamasu's level of power

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:19 am

PFM18 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:06 pm
You do realize that the words "ki" and "power" are usually interchangeable right? As in, a scouter's "power level" is simply the ki reading at that particular time. The phrases "highest ki" and "most powerful" are used as synonyms as one another all the time.

And again, the same verbatim was NOT used in both cases. in Beerus's case, he repeatedly emphasized that Goku had simply "made that power his own" which is completely different.
SSGod’s power is not necessarily God ki. Goku as a Super Saiyan with SSGod’s power could be felt by ordinary beings. The pamphlet simply said Goku acquired SSGod’s power without transforming into Super Saiyan. You are describing a plot point in the movie that doesn’t exist.

Post Reply