Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

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Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:29 am

Why do many people believe that Evil Boo was stronger than Pure Boo? When the narrative is trying to tell totally different thing. When Goku and Vegeta detached Good Boo from inside of Evil Boo, there's a rise in Ki. Goku and Vegeta sure think he's manageable but did they really based him from ki? Even Vegeta the person who got killed by Majin Boo thought he can take on him, isn't that him underestimating him? Because when he actually fought him he realized how outclassed he is. Goku's comment about them being able to manage something like this, was in reply to Vegeta's remarks on His size. To make my point more clear, Toriyama intentionally kept showing Kibitoshin's worried face in contrast to Goku and Vegeta's happy faces in Same page. If someone thinks that Kibitoshin is worrying due to the PTSD he may have with Pure Boo, no that's not it. He was shown dancing around with Old Kaioshin after Seeing Evil Boo revert to his base without absorptions, there's no reason for him to fret over if he thinks that Boo has became weak. Not only that, but right after Goku and Vegeta show confidence in dealing with Boo, the very next Page we see Kibitoshin telling the backstory of Pure Boo and Kaioshins.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s) …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
Think about it, why would Toriyama first Make Goku tell Vegeta that Evil Boo ki is rising then make Kaioshin react in totally opposite way compared to Goku and Vegeta and then make Kibitoshin give exposition on the whole Story and mention decrease in power?

How's that not enough to tell That Pure Boo is above Evil Boo? Goku and Vegeta clearly prove that they both underestimated Boo.


Their reactions to his blast is something else, i don't expect these reactions from someone who just now thought they maybe able to manage something :
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”

The reason why Goku wants to Fight Pure Boo one-on-one is not because of Ki going down, it's the same reason he wanted to fight Vegeta and Final Form Freeza alone. It's his desire to test his powers and warrior pride of fighting Unfused character without fusion, otherwise in the entire manga why would they not make a comment on Pure Boo's ki going down when they made comments on ki everytime:
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Notice how old Kaioshins want him to use potara so badly and screams at him and calls him out. Kibitoshin has given up on telling them anything at this point because they never listened to him earlier before Boo was revived and it's same thing here. Goku never implied any fall in Boo's ki like something say "Don't worry his ki is way lower than what it was when we were inside him", there is hardly a mention of Power here. On the contrary, Goku mentioned "Dangerously" factor and even then he's trying to come up with a Plan while Pure Boo is destroying planets.

Also, here Pure Boo sensed Them and then reached them which means he has the abilities of a martial artist and it's very very likely that when he first appeared on earth He was suppressing his Ki, i think it should be obvious, so it's not like Goku and Vegeta judged him based on his size, Pure Boo has shown these skills related to Ki. It's typical Toriyama gag of atleast one character mocking the final form of being weak and other correcting them or reacting opposite of it. Kuririn did it with Freeza (don't tell me Kuririn can't sense ki) only to be corrected by Piccolo, Vegeta tried to do that (don't tell me Vegeta can't sense ki) only to be corrected by Cell when he went right through him. It's same thing here, Kaioshin is reacting totally opposite to Goku-Vegeta and then goes on giving backstory on him and mentioning "Power". Which means Good Boo inside Evil Boo was Kaioshin influence from both Grand and South Kaioshin. And no, Boo can't access Southern Kaioshin absorbed ki because he's detached from the body so that skyrocketing ki has to be of Pure Boo. Remember How Evil Boo reverts to weaker forms the instant someone is detached from inside? When Goku and Vegeta detached the kids and Piccolo he changes instantly and drops ki instantly. Whereas here, it skyrocketed and turns into a drawn out transformations which is typical Toriyama for villain Transformation.

This is after Goku and Vegeta finally see Pure Boo in action and their conclusion :
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he needs to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.6
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed by Boo]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”


When people talk about Goku saying he's no match for Evil Boo, Goku actually uses "we" as if he's not even considering Ssj3 and he says that mainly to persuade Vegeta to fuse. If one try to read them in order, Goku first notices how fusion achieved by dancing is still working inside Boo's body (unlike Potara magic) when he saw Goten and Trunks then he realized that with Fusion there is still a chance. After he made the comment of them both not being a match for Evil Boo, Vegeta asks what does he mean then Goku called him out for destroying potara, then he tried to tell him about fusion like a Surefire way to kill Boo based on Vegeta not knowing about it "but there's another way" but Vegeta replied with him knowing fusion which surprised Goku. Notice the gag faces Goku makes here, it's hard to believe he really was that afraid but we know for a fact that with ssj3 Goku always had unwillingness to use it or not and always preferred fusion over it. He tells similar lie to Kuririn and then Piccolo about not being a match for Chubby Boo (before Separation) but later he admits that he could have beaten him. And incase, Goku went to fight him and Evil Boo was far above Goku like he said then the scenario with him would definitely play out the same as with Pure Boo.

Goku saying he needs to gather enough ki for a minute is same as Piccolo's Makankosappo, it's not that Goku is above Pure Boo but to wipe Boo out he thought he atleast required Ki gathered for 60 seconds. We already saw characters producing ki blasts far stronger than them like with Piccolo's Makankosappo vs Raditz or Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho against Cell. It's not different here.

Also, it's clearly implied that Gohan was no match for Pure Boo alone, Goku wanted both Gotenks and Gohan to fight at the very least and he was just trying to guess what Vegeta was upto.
Goku : “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”



The way it's worded highly implies both are required to manage something against Boo.

Vegeta would never prefer unnecessary risky solution if Gohan is enough. Gohan couldn't beat Pure Boo, otherwise, if Gohan was strong enough, Goku would have found Vegeta's idea stupid and wouldn't have agreed.
Goku also recommended Gotenks, we all know his Time Limit for ssj3 is 5 minutes so calling him is completely unnecessary unless it's absolutely necessary, we have already seen how naive Gotenks is as a warrior. So if Goku wanted Gotenks, Gohan, Vegeta, Good Boo to fight together to take Pure Boo down then it totally makes my point clear. Narrative-wise Goku didn't know how to finish Boo so he was guessing that Vegeta is trying to gather as much strong warriors as possible but after Vegeta told Goku that he's going to take every ounce of ki from everyone, Goku was happy with his plan which means Pure Boo is way above Gohan.

Again, Goku was never a match for Pure Boo, he himself realized that he's far outclassed by Pure Boo that's why he thinks he needs to train to catch up.
Goku : “And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”


This proves that Goku thinks no one is enough to deal with Pure Boo and if he thought Gohan was enough, he would not even say this but say something like "don't worry we already have Gohan to deal with him incase the monster emerges again".

Also in an interview, Toriyama told how the final forms of his villains are least dangerous looking and shorter compared to previous forms. Infact, in an interview the interviewer directly asked him with the example of Pure Boo being the strongest and he said yes and answered it.

Maybe he's not as strong as Gohan-Boo but what i can assure is he's definitely stronger than Evil Boo and he wrote the whole final battle on Kaioshin realm with this in mind, otherwise nothing makes sense, then worrying about universe getting doomed if Genki Dama doesn't work doesn't make sense, Goku calling earth person fools for being ignorant and saying the earth will get destroyed again makes no sense if Gohan is there, everyone giving their ki from Afterlife, Kaioshin realm, Namek, Earth, etc. and praying that Genki Dama works doesn't make sense, Kaio or Piccolo or Old Kaioshin not calling out Goku for not asking his supposedly "stronger than Pure Boo" for help doesn't make sense, Vegeta fearing that Pure Boo will emerge again from Good Boo one day doesn't make sense if Gohan was strong enough to kill Pure Boo, literally, it's like wanting the Boo arc climax to look awful, if one thinks Evil Boo > Pure Boo, when Toriyama is better author than that.
Last edited by Ripper 30 on Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by theherodjl » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:34 am

Oh joy, another "which Boo is the strongest Boo forever & ever?" thread.:clap:
I think we should all agree that Pure Boo & Pure Evil Boo are power-equals since Goku admitted that both of them were too strong for him & Vegeta to handle, he said so himself about Pure Evil Boo while they were inside Boo's body and then later again when Goku realized that even SSJ3 cannot defeat Pure Boo so easily. Pure Evil Boo is simply more reserved while Pure Boo is utterly reckless, debate over as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:54 am

theherodjl wrote:Oh joy, another "which Boo is the strongest Boo forever & ever?" thread.:clap:
I think we should all agree that Pure Boo & Pure Evil Boo are power-equals since Goku admitted that both of them were too strong for him & Vegeta to handle, he said so himself about Pure Evil Boo while they were inside Boo's body and then later again when Goku realized that even SSJ3 cannot defeat Pure Boo so easily. Pure Evil Boo is simply more reserved while Pure Boo is utterly reckless, debate over as far as I'm concerned.
Nope, two things :

1) Goku notes that his ki was rising While Evil Boo was in middle of transforming into Next form.

2) Kibitoshin outright uses "lower his power through absorptions" which means taking fat boo the source of Kaioshin means Boo gets his unrestricted power back.

Again it's like these two panels are overlooked as they were put there for nothing when in reality that's how Toriyama shows the powerscaling.

Absorbing Saiyans = Increase in power

Absorbing Kaioshins = power loss due to influence of goodness which somehow lowers the powers


Even Dabra states that they can't use Kaioshin ki to revive Boo, how is that not proof of Kaioshin powers not working with Majin powers?

Fusion dance is a different technique from Metamorans(right spelling?) but potara is exclusively Kaioshin technique and after absorbing Gotenks the fusion never disappeared but guess what? The moment Vegetto removes the barrier they diffuse then they even comment about atmosphere. DBS can retcon shit as usual but this is another proof of Kaioshin powers not working with Majin powers.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:07 am

And no, Boo can't access Southern Kaioshin absorbed ki because he's detached from the body so that skyrocketing ki has to be of Pure Boo. Remember How Evil Boo reverts to weaker forms the instant someone is detached from inside? When Goku and Vegeta detached the kids and Piccolo he changes instantly and drops ki instantly. Whereas here, it skyrocketed and turns into a drawn out transformations which is typical Toriyama for villain Transformation.
For starters, he doesn't change instantly upon things changing in his body. We see that, when Fusion ends, it's an instantaneous separation, but when Gotenks de-fused inside Buu, it took a number of seconds for Buu's body to transform as a result. Likewise, it's specifically said that the bulky, muscle-bound version of Buu that appears briefly is from his absorption of South Kaioushin, so despite not having him in his body anymore, his body still reacted as if it was in there during the regression between Evil Buu and Pure Buu. His influence is therefore relevant to the narrative of what happened, and fits both the explanation of Buu's absorptions and the temporary ki increase that was noted.
When people talk about Goku saying he's no match for Evil Boo, Goku actually uses "we" as if he's not even considering Ssj3 and he says that mainly to persuade Vegeta to fuse. If one try to read them in order, Goku first notices how fusion achieved by dancing is still working inside Boo's body (unlike Potara magic) when he saw Goten and Trunks then he realized that with Fusion there is still a chance. After he made the comment of them both not being a match for Evil Boo, Vegeta asks what does he mean then Goku called him out for destroying potara, then he tried to tell him about fusion like a Surefire way to kill Boo based on Vegeta not knowing about it "but there's another way" but Vegeta replied with him knowing fusion which surprised Goku. Notice the gag faces Goku makes here, it's hard to believe he really was that afraid but we know for a fact that with ssj3 Goku always had unwillingness to use it or not and always preferred fusion over it. He tells similar lie to Kuririn and then Piccolo about not being a match for Chubby Boo (before Separation) but later he admits that he could have beaten him. And incase, Goku went to fight him and Evil Boo was far above Goku like he said then the scenario with him would definitely play out the same as with Pure Boo.
Nothing about what Goku said about being no match for Evil Buu suggests that he wasn't considering Super Saiyan 3. Saying "we" simply means the two of them together couldn't beat Buu, not that he'd only go at Buu with the same form that Vegeta tried to or anything like that. Goku had a reason for not defeating Fat Buu, and his lying to Kuririn and Piccolo was based around this reasoning. That reason (that he didn't feel he should be protecting the Earth as a dead man) was invalid at the point that he was talking to Vegeta about fusing, and he wasn't unwilling to use Super Saiyan 3 at the time because he wasn't aware of its limitations with a living person. None of the reasons Goku would refrain from using Super Saiyan 3 were in play at the time that he was insisting that they fuse instead. As for gag faces, I don't recall a single face he made that I'd remotely consider a "gag face".
Vegeta would never prefer unnecessary risky solution if Gohan is enough.
That's clearly not the case. He gave his reason for wanting to use the Genki Dama, and that's the only thing we can extrapolate as his reason for doing so. Not that he didn't think Gohan could handle it or anything of the sort, just that he wanted Earth to take care of its own problems for once rather than having them protect it. Having Gohan or Gotenks fight would be the exact opposite of what he's proposing, so that's why he rejected Goku's notion.
This proves that Goku thinks no one is enough to deal with Pure Boo and if he thought Gohan was enough, he would not even say this but say something like "don't worry we already have Gohan to deal with him incase the monster emerges again".
No it doesn't. It literally just says that he wants to make sure that he and Vegeta will be ready in case they were to ever need to fight that Buu again in the future. He even prefaces it in the sentence beforehand. "And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again.", which can arguably be "If Gohan or Gotenks isn't around, we can just fight again", thus his following line is just saying for them to train so that if they have to go up against Buu one-on-one (i.e. no one helping), they'll not lose.
2) Kibitoshin outright uses "lower his power through absorptions" which means taking fat boo the source of Kaioshin means Boo gets his unrestricted power back.
Through absorption is the only definitive thing we can take from it. There's no plural in Japanese, which is why it was written as absorption, since the line could be taken as either. However, if you go by context, it's clear that it was just the Dai Kaioushin that did influence him negatively, because Kibitoshin says that Buu was still pure evil until absorbing the Dai Kaioushin changed him, meaning that absorbing South Kaioushin didn't affect his evil nature at all.

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:19 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
And no, Boo can't access Southern Kaioshin absorbed ki because he's detached from the body so that skyrocketing ki has to be of Pure Boo. Remember How Evil Boo reverts to weaker forms the instant someone is detached from inside? When Goku and Vegeta detached the kids and Piccolo he changes instantly and drops ki instantly. Whereas here, it skyrocketed and turns into a drawn out transformations which is typical Toriyama for villain Transformation.
For starters, he doesn't change instantly upon things changing in his body. We see that, when Fusion ends, it's an instantaneous separation, but when Gotenks de-fused inside Buu, it took a number of seconds for Buu's body to transform as a result. Likewise, it's specifically said that the bulky, muscle-bound version of Buu that appears briefly is from his absorption of South Kaioushin, so despite not having him in his body anymore, his body still reacted as if it was in there during the regression between Evil Buu and Pure Buu. His influence is therefore relevant to the narrative of what happened, and fits both the explanation of Buu's absorptions and the temporary ki increase that was noted.

Again in the Manga there's no mention of decrease in ki. If anything all we can assume is Southern Kaioshin had no power up in Kid Boo because if there is any fluctuation in Dragon Ball, there's no way the charactersm won't say so. Don't you think it's strange that they would not talk about that? I don't think so, no one is stopping toriyama from not talking about ki decreasing, and it's not like they stopped using term "ki" in Dragon Ball at that point because in final battle they do talk about Kis of various characters. Also, no, in Manga it's not a pause at all. One Panel Bootenks and next Boocolo.
It makes no sense to mention increase in ki then imply it decreased, what was the purpose? Which writer would power down the villain who's battle is called "Battle for the fate of the universe"? What Toriyama implied was unlike Saiyans, Kaioshin lowered his power, if not then please link me a line where they say south Kaioshin powered him and that The Pure Boo ki was lower than Evil Boo.


Nothing about what Goku said about being no match for Evil Buu suggests that he wasn't considering Super Saiyan 3. Saying "we" simply means the two of them together couldn't beat Buu, not that he'd only go at Buu with the same form that Vegeta tried to or anything like that. Goku had a reason for not defeating Fat Buu, and his lying to Kuririn and Piccolo was based around this reasoning. That reason (that he didn't feel he should be protecting the Earth as a dead man) was invalid at the point that he was talking to Vegeta about fusing, and he wasn't unwilling to use Super Saiyan 3 at the time because he wasn't aware of its limitations with a living person. None of the reasons Goku would refrain from using Super Saiyan 3 were in play at the time that he was insisting that they fuse instead. As for gag faces, I don't recall a single face he made that I'd remotely consider a "gag face".

Again if you're talking about "no reason to lie" he doesn't have any reason to lie to Piccolo, Piccolo sensed it that's why he was the one who asked him. Piccolo is a sharp one and that's exactly why he doubted that Goku wasn't trying near Fat Boo. Please re-read the section, i don't know about you but he clearly is making gag faces when talking about crushing potara and then trying to find opportunity to tell Vegeta about Fusion dance as "this can save us". I don't think it's lie but Goku already shows unwillingness in this arc to use ssj3 until he fights the Pure Boo himself. If he was really that terrified he should not make gag faces, even when Evil Boo came inside, why isn't he trying ssj3 like he did with Gotenks-Boo? When Goku's running away from Gohan-Boo that's called terrified not the Evil Boo situation. It's not like Goku to not even try to fight an unfused form. What does he tell Kuririn and Piccolo on Kami's Lookout? He told that he originally planned to do Fusion dance with Gohan or Vegeta to take down Boo even though he has Ssj3, do you see how he just wasn't willing to use ssj3 until it's last resort? His conversation with Evil Boo hardly looked like someone scared, why doesn't he go ssj3 then?




That's clearly not the case. He gave his reason for wanting to use the Genki Dama, and that's the only thing we can extrapolate as his reason for doing so. Not that he didn't think Gohan could handle it or anything of the sort, just that he wanted Earth to take care of its own problems for once rather than having them protect it. Having Gohan or Gotenks fight would be the exact opposite of what he's proposing, so that's why he rejected Goku's notion.
He saw whole Fusion and ssj3 thing from afterlife, he shared mind and body with Goku so its not like he doesn't know about Gohan and Gotenks. Wait, aren't you twisting the words? He just said "No", and it's not "Gohan or Gotenks fight", it's "Gohan *and* Gotenks". We use "or" when talking about either solution but "and" means both are needed which means Gohan by himself wasn't enough and even that wasn't a plan, that was Goku guessing Vegeta's plan. First of all, you are adding your own theory into the Manga when he didn't say a single thing about "calling them would be exact opposite of what i am proposing", Vegeta isn't that dumb considering he's out of his angst phase from Cell arc and is a good guy that's why halo vanished. He won't choose Genki Dama over help from boys if he knew either of those boys are enough. And if Gohan was enough to kill Pure Boo then Goku would call him out for not using Gohan but after Vegeta talked about taking as much Ki as they can from earthlings, Goku was happy which means Kid Boo is weaker than Gohan otherwise Goku who's all about giving his sons spotlight would not try to use a risky technique which never worked. Vegeta would not beg the earth people and take beatings from Pure Boo to stall for Goku if one Gohan is enough, no one would.





No it doesn't. It literally just says that he wants to make sure that he and Vegeta will be ready in case they were to ever need to fight that Buu again in the future. He even prefaces it in the sentence beforehand. "And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again.", which can arguably be "If Gohan or Gotenks isn't around, we can just fight again", thus his following line is just saying for them to train so that if they have to go up against Buu one-on-one (i.e. no one helping), they'll not lose.

Wait, what? Why would he forget his two sons and Vegeta's son as if they don't exist for just one sentence? No he meant everyone. Also, how are your assumptions coming out from so less text? You are adding your own theories, because by "worse comes to worse" he means Pure Boo getting reborn from Good Boo that's it. No, unless you can give the proof of him talking about a situation where his son is magically out of the planet whom he can't track by Teleporting.




Through absorption is the only definitive thing we can take from it. There's no plural in Japanese, which is why it was written as absorption, since the line could be taken as either. However, if you go by context, it's clear that it was just the Dai Kaioushin that did influence him negatively, because Kibitoshin says that Buu was still pure evil until absorbing the Dai Kaioushin changed him, meaning that absorbing South Kaioushin didn't affect his evil nature at all.

But he never talked about power, unless you give a proof of Southern Kaioshin for no reason powering him up then the implications are, Good Boo = both Kaioshin's influence. If south Kaioshin was strong enough, the Z sword would be already pulled out.

Why would Toriyama write "Lower his power through absorptions" if not for powerscaling? Why would toriyama make Goku remark about increase in Boo ki only for it to go down in next panel? What's that? But if you think like this, it was the Power which the absorptions were holding then it makes sense that why it skyrocketed and the reaction of Kaioshin going from happy after seeing Evil Boo to scared after seeing Pure Boo?
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Kaboom » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:07 am

Maybe Pure Boo being strongest would be better in some narrative ways, but that's simply not what we're actually shown and told. The rest of the entire arc beforehand doesn't allow for it to be possible. That entire middle Fusion-and-Gohan portion of the arc contains far too many direct statements and power comparisons establishing them all as far stronger than Goku, which in order for Pure Boo to be strongest would all have to be either ignored or explained away via some very direct word-of-god input.

Darkprince has already covered some of the more specific logic- and translation-based bits, so I won't get in-depth with that. But all in all, I say it's no coincidence that in the original, actually-coherent version of the story, Pure Boo was never actually said to be "strongest," and instead only had other traits outlining him as "most troublesome." It's almost as if, whaddya know, Toriyama decided halfway through the whole Fusion sub-arc that he wanted to have Goku and Vegeta save the day, but knew he'd made Boo too strong for them in the process of fighting Gotenks and Gohan. So he had to finagle a way for Boo to get a power downgrade so Goku and Vegeta could actually fight him, but also make Boo still be a bigger threat than the stronger forms for the sake of an appropriate high-stakes final battle. So instead of being told "original-form Boo is strongest" we get told "original-form Boo is pure destructive evil with no restraint." It all clicks together in exactly the type of convenient, writing-by-the-seat-of-your-pants way you'd expect from Toriyama.

Also, the statements about Boo going from "he's too strong for us" as Evil Boo and "isn't he getting stronger" as Buff Boo, but then switching to "yeah, we can take him now" and "you can beat him with SS3, Kakarrot" as Pure Boo... those ARE the oh-so-elusive statements indicating that Boo's ki/power decreased. Goku and Vegeta aren't so senseless that they'd suddenly forget how to sense ki and only judge Boo by his size. If they go from saying, "we're boned without Fusion" to saying "alrighty, let's 1v1 this beeyotch," then that means Boo got weaker.


As a side-note, I've been thinking about it a bit lately, and I think the only real way for Goku and Pure Boo to be strongest in the end is if Goku was somehow incapable of using his full SS3 power for most of the arc, and knew it. If that was the case, then he'd leave Fat Boo to the kids because he's not sure he can summon enough SS3 power to do the job himself. Based on that, he'd insist on Fusion with Vegeta later, because Evil Boo is even stronger than Fat Boo and he knows he can't do the job with his impaired SS3. Then finally against even-stronger Pure Boo, Goku can finally use his full SS3 power because he's back in the afterlife, but using it in a living body drains him too quickly instead.

But even something like that, as effectively as it might "fix" things, has no actual evidence for it. If we're meant to think that such a thing was going on without the story actually saying so, it'd have to come directly from Toriyama in a Q&A or something. And even then it still wouldn't quite line up with all that we're shown and told, and some stuff would still have to be ignored or hand-waved.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by PFM18 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:12 am

At the end of the day, us fans have determined that Super Boo>Pure Boo because of Goku's fear of Super Boo when leaving his body, but I don't think that the story ever actually explicitly compares them. It's really never made apparent how most of these characters in that arc compare, even if fans have come up with ways to ascertain who ranks where. Pure Boo is the stated to be the "most dangerous", but it is never specifically addressed where each one compares to the other in terms of power. Ultimately, it is just a giant train wreck and I don't think the comparison was really given much mind when it was originally being written.

The Buu arc is just so bad. Worst arc in the main continuity of this franchise. (aka not including GT)

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by theherodjl » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:18 am

Kaboom wrote:Maybe Pure Boo being strongest would be better in some narrative ways, but that's simply not what we're actually shown and told. The rest of the entire arc beforehand doesn't allow for it to be possible. There's far too many direct statements and power comparisons which would all have to be either ignored or explained away via some very direct word-of-god input.

I don't think it's a coincidence that in the original, actually-coherent story, Pure Boo was never actually said to be "strongest," and instead only had other traits outlining him as "most troublesome."

Also, the statements about Boo going from "he's too strong for us" as Evil Boo and "isn't he getting stronger" as Buff Boo, but then switching to "yeah, we can take him now" and "you can beat him with SS3, Kakarrot" as Pure Boo... those ARE the oh-so-elusive statements indicating that Boo's ki/power decreased. Goku and Vegeta aren't so senseless that they'd suddenly forget how to sense ki and only judge Boo by his size. If they go from saying, "we're boned without Fusion" to saying "alrighty, let's 1v1 this beeyotch," then that means Boo got weaker.
Think this thread should just be locked? Although It hasn't gotten out of hand...yet, I'm willing to bet that we're going to see a very long back & forth series of replies that will only end when one person decides that they just cannot continue anymore. I'm not implying the OP is doing anything bad but rather this very topic is one that has been talked to death for twenty years and cannot be analyzed anymore than it already has as there has been no new material added to it.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Kaboom » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:23 am

theherodjl wrote:Think this thread should just be locked?
No, there's no reason to lock it. But I'll be keeping a close eye on it to make sure the discussion doesn't get toxic, so don't worry.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:29 pm

Kaboom wrote:Maybe Pure Boo being strongest would be better in some narrative ways, but that's simply not what we're actually shown and told. The rest of the entire arc beforehand doesn't allow for it to be possible. That entire middle Fusion-and-Gohan portion of the arc contains far too many direct statements and power comparisons establishing them all as far stronger than Goku, which in order for Pure Boo to be strongest would all have to be either ignored or explained away via some very direct word-of-god input.

Darkprince has already covered some of the more specific logic- and translation-based bits, so I won't get in-depth with that. But all in all, I say it's no coincidence that in the original, actually-coherent version of the story, Pure Boo was never actually said to be "strongest," and instead only had other traits outlining him as "most troublesome." It's almost as if, whaddya know, Toriyama decided halfway through the whole Fusion sub-arc that he wanted to have Goku and Vegeta save the day, but knew he'd made Boo too strong for them in the process of fighting Gotenks and Gohan. So he had to finagle a way for Boo to get a power downgrade so Goku and Vegeta could actually fight him, but also make Boo still be a bigger threat than the stronger forms for the sake of an appropriate high-stakes final battle. So instead of being told "original-form Boo is strongest" we get told "original-form Boo is pure destructive evil with no restraint." It all clicks together in exactly the type of convenient, writing-by-the-seat-of-your-pants way you'd expect from Toriyama.

Also, the statements about Boo going from "he's too strong for us" as Evil Boo and "isn't he getting stronger" as Buff Boo, but then switching to "yeah, we can take him now" and "you can beat him with SS3, Kakarrot" as Pure Boo... those ARE the oh-so-elusive statements indicating that Boo's ki/power decreased. Goku and Vegeta aren't so senseless that they'd suddenly forget how to sense ki and only judge Boo by his size. If they go from saying, "we're boned without Fusion" to saying "alrighty, let's 1v1 this beeyotch," then that means Boo got weaker.


As a side-note, I've been thinking about it a bit lately, and I think the only real way for Goku and Pure Boo to be strongest in the end is if Goku was somehow incapable of using his full SS3 power for most of the arc, and knew it. If that was the case, then he'd leave Fat Boo to the kids because he's not sure he can summon enough SS3 power to do the job himself. Based on that, he'd insist on Fusion with Vegeta later, because Evil Boo is even stronger than Fat Boo and he knows he can't do the job with his impaired SS3. Then finally against even-stronger Pure Boo, Goku can finally use his full SS3 power because he's back in the afterlife, but using it in a living body drains him too quickly instead.

But even something like that, as effectively as it might "fix" things, has no actual evidence for it. If we're meant to think that such a thing was going on without the story actually saying so, it'd have to come directly from Toriyama in a Q&A or something. And even then it still wouldn't quite line up with all that we're shown and told, and some stuff would still have to be ignored or hand-waved.
I don't think Toriyama would make Goku comment on Boo's ki going up only to downgrade him in the next page, it doesn't make sense for Pure Boo to be a downgrade version of Evil Boo considering the final encounter is the fight where "Fight for the Fate of Universe". There's no way Pure Boo got a boost from Southern Kaioshin when it's established that Kaioshin Powers don't Power up or atleast don't have any effect in a good way on Boo otherwise Dabra would not count Kibito and Kaioshin out. These things happen one after another:
Goku comments on Evil Boo ki increasing -> Goku and Vegeta not even saying we can beat him but "Look he's shrunk" and "we did it. This way we might be able to manage something". Pretty sure, the "This way" is his height, otherwise Vegeta won't use the word used for shrinking in RRA arc. In Dragon Ball the fluctuations in power is ALWAYS told through Ki or Battle Power going down or Up, yet Vegeta uses the word "shrunk" which had no mention of "Ki" in it. Even after this fight they use "Ki" term constantly so it's pretty clear that they were judging him off his size, after all he went from a giant monster to a tiny kid, coupled with Toriyama making final form of villains looking slimmer and small. Then in that same Page where Goku and Vegeta mock him, we see Kaioshin 's terror filled face and he then not only tells his backstory but mentioned that there was power which was getting blocked due to absorptions and in Japanese there is no plural for that word so its not like Toriyama can invent a plural for it when it's clear that Kaioshin won't Power-up him. Also, Goku told Old Kaioshin that he's fighting him because of warrior code and this isn't their style and also that Boo was unfused. I am pretty sure, if Goku was forced to Fight Evil Boo he would be in similar position. Goku's decision to not use potara was never due to Pure Boo being weak but because he wanted to fight him one-on-one like he tried to do with Saiyan arc Vegeta or Freeza or Cell, it's a trend to make Goku fight final most powerful threat. Goku himself admits he was trying to show off and explicitly mentioned the solution "Potara" so i don't know how Pure Boo situation should be considered different from Evil Boo when in both situations Goku is driven into corner and here Goku admits that he screwed up big time,Vegeta too mentioned that he underestimated Boo. The way Goku recommended Gohan and Gotenks hardly proves otherwise since Goku still thought that Gohan needed to fight together with Gotenks to manage something, which totally makes the Evil Boo > Pure Boo argument moot.
If Pure Boo was weaker than Evil Boo then Goku would say, "you want Gohan to defeat him now" then Toriyama would make Vegeta say "no he screwed up ones already, I dont want him to get absorbed again" that's how it should have been if Gohan was enough but Goku thought Vegeta wants both of them to help them in fighting Boo.

Also, they take Ki not Genki, in Japanese version Goku starts with term genki but even he starts saying ki. With Vegeta's "take as much ki as you want to" its pretty clear that it's Ki. Goku managed to collect Power to damage Vegeta enough in Saiyan arc even though it was plants. We even see Gohan giving his Ki and i don't think he will hold back either. It makes no sense for Pure Boo to be weaker than Evil Boo atleast.

One can still say Gohan-Boo is strongest but that's because he took Gohan in him, Pure Boo can still be strongest Unfused Boo and i am sure that's what Toriyama's vision was. The looks on Kaioshin after seeing Base Evil Boo and Pure Boo are opposite, he won't stop celebrating just because he saw the face of the nightmare. The implication in manga of most dangerous is of, Pure Boo being best among unfused Boos


Your theory is not wrong at all, Goku mentioned to Piccolo about ssj3 being best in afterlife and him from the start planning to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to fight boo so i don't think it's forced, he had issues with ssj3 until he was back in afterlife.

If you look at it this way, the scaling makes sense :
Pure Boo > Evil Boo > Majin Boo
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:39 pm

PFM18 wrote:At the end of the day, us fans have determined that Super Boo>Pure Boo because of Goku's fear of Super Boo when leaving his body, but I don't think that the story ever actually explicitly compares them. It's really never made apparent how most of these characters in that arc compare, even if fans have come up with ways to ascertain who ranks where. Pure Boo is the stated to be the "most dangerous", but it is never specifically addressed where each one compares to the other in terms of power. Ultimately, it is just a giant train wreck and I don't think the comparison was really given much mind when it was originally being written.

The Buu arc is just so bad. Worst arc in the main continuity of this franchise. (aka not including GT)
Disagree, in manga its more than evident that After Separation of Good Boo that Ki only went up and never went down. Then Kibitoshin explains "lower his power through absorptions", i don't know why fandom ignores it. Wait, Viz manga never mentions decrease in power and in FUNimation Z dub, ssj3 Goku told that he was holding back while fighting Boo because of Vegeta and could have destroyed Pure Boo initially when he was fresh and now he needs to gather enough power to kill him, see?
These little things add up to create confusion.

It has its flaws but I don't think these mistranslations should be overlooked when this arc is deemed bad. I think it's pretty simple scaling, even the interviewer in 2007 interview asks this question of final most powerful forms looking less threatening with the example of Pure Boo and Toriyama answered it.


It's just bad reputation of Boo arc as a whole in west due to not making Gohan Protagonist, the BIG DUB CHANGE i mentioned, misinformation among Fandom and these all things add up to unnecessary confusion dub Fandom mostly.
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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:02 pm

PFM18 wrote:At the end of the day, us fans have determined that Super Boo>Pure Boo because of Goku's fear of Super Boo when leaving his body, but I don't think that the story ever actually explicitly compares them. It's really never made apparent how most of these characters in that arc compare, even if fans have come up with ways to ascertain who ranks where. Pure Boo is the stated to be the "most dangerous", but it is never specifically addressed where each one compares to the other in terms of power. Ultimately, it is just a giant train wreck and I don't think the comparison was really given much mind when it was originally being written.

The Buu arc is just so bad. Worst arc in the main continuity of this franchise. (aka not including GT)
The Android/Cell arcs, the Pilaf arc and most of Super (except the Black arc) is easily worse than the Buu saga overall.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:11 pm

There is no way Kid Buu could be the strongest. That just makes zero sense.

1. SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu fought on an even level. Goku even stated he could wipe him out with his full power. He NEVER implies this with any version of Super Buu.

2. The only time Buu explicitly gets weaker from absorption is when he absorded the Grand Supreme Kai. Every other time he got stronger. Shin said that Buu got stronger after absorbing the South Supreme Kai, automatically disqualifing Kid Buu from being the strongest Buu.

3. SSJ1 Gotenks (even before going into the Rosat) is shown to be equal or stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Since he could easily beat Fat Buu in just SSJ1 while Goku could only do this in SSJ3. Gotenks would later further surpass Goku after going into the Rosat, then even more after unlocking SSJ3 himself and fighting Base Super Buu on an even level.

So the idea that Kid Buu is stronger than any other version of Buu (except the Fat one) is stupid.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by PFM18 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:At the end of the day, us fans have determined that Super Boo>Pure Boo because of Goku's fear of Super Boo when leaving his body, but I don't think that the story ever actually explicitly compares them. It's really never made apparent how most of these characters in that arc compare, even if fans have come up with ways to ascertain who ranks where. Pure Boo is the stated to be the "most dangerous", but it is never specifically addressed where each one compares to the other in terms of power. Ultimately, it is just a giant train wreck and I don't think the comparison was really given much mind when it was originally being written.

The Buu arc is just so bad. Worst arc in the main continuity of this franchise. (aka not including GT)
Disagree, in manga its more than evident that After Separation of Good Boo that Ki only went up and never went down. Then Kibitoshin explains "lower his power through absorptions", i don't know why fandom ignores it. Wait, Viz manga never mentions decrease in power and in FUNimation Z dub, ssj3 Goku told that he was holding back while fighting Boo because of Vegeta and could have destroyed Pure Boo initially when he was fresh and now he needs to gather enough power to kill him, see?
These little things add up to create confusion.

It has its flaws but I don't think these mistranslations should be overlooked when this arc is deemed bad. I think it's pretty simple scaling, even the interviewer in 2007 interview asks this question of final most powerful forms looking less threatening with the example of Pure Boo and Toriyama answered it.


It's just bad reputation of Boo arc as a whole in west due to not making Gohan Protagonist, the BIG DUB CHANGE i mentioned, misinformation among Fandom and these all things add up to unnecessary confusion dub Fandom mostly.
Don't the mistranslations just corroborate what you're saying though? That Buu never got weaker the entire time? The manga implies Super Boo>Pure Boo but the Daizenshuu among other supplementary materials IIRC, imply that Kid Buu>Buuhan.

The Buu arc's issues run much deeper than that regardless.

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by PFM18 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:20 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:At the end of the day, us fans have determined that Super Boo>Pure Boo because of Goku's fear of Super Boo when leaving his body, but I don't think that the story ever actually explicitly compares them. It's really never made apparent how most of these characters in that arc compare, even if fans have come up with ways to ascertain who ranks where. Pure Boo is the stated to be the "most dangerous", but it is never specifically addressed where each one compares to the other in terms of power. Ultimately, it is just a giant train wreck and I don't think the comparison was really given much mind when it was originally being written.

The Buu arc is just so bad. Worst arc in the main continuity of this franchise. (aka not including GT)
The Android/Cell arcs, the Pilaf arc and most of Super (except the Black arc) is easily worse than the Buu saga overall.
No, not really. The Buu arc is extremely, long while adding very little of value. It's length combined with the bad quality makes it an excruciating rewatch. A short bad arc>>>A long bad arc. And all of the arcs in question give you more "bang for your buck" in terms of value of that story than the Buu arc which is very lengthy but devoid but fairly devoid of anything substantive, making it an empty husk of an arc. The only arc in question that the Buu arc has an argument over, as far as I'm concerned, is the RoF arc. Everything else is better.

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:21 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:At the end of the day, us fans have determined that Super Boo>Pure Boo because of Goku's fear of Super Boo when leaving his body, but I don't think that the story ever actually explicitly compares them. It's really never made apparent how most of these characters in that arc compare, even if fans have come up with ways to ascertain who ranks where. Pure Boo is the stated to be the "most dangerous", but it is never specifically addressed where each one compares to the other in terms of power. Ultimately, it is just a giant train wreck and I don't think the comparison was really given much mind when it was originally being written.

The Buu arc is just so bad. Worst arc in the main continuity of this franchise. (aka not including GT)
The Android/Cell arcs, the Pilaf arc and most of Super (except the Black arc) is easily worse than the Buu saga overall.
No, not really. The Buu arc is extremely, long while adding very little of value. It's length combined with the bad quality makes it an excruciating rewatch. A short bad arc>>>A long bad arc. And all of the arcs in question give you more "bang for your buck" in terms of value of that story than the Buu arc which is very lengthy but devoid but fairly devoid of anything substantive, making it an empty husk of an arc. The only arc in question that the Buu arc has an argument over, as far as I'm concerned, is the RoF arc. Everything else is better.
And what exactly does the Android arc (with its numerous plot holes, retcons and characters acting stupid just to move the story), DBS BoG (which does everything worse than its movie version), the Pilaf arc (which is a whole lot of boring nothing) and RoF in general (which almost ruined Freeza's character, has zero tension at all despite not being a light-hearted story, has even more PIS, etc) have over the Buu saga (which had the best on average art design, 3 of the franchises greatest fights, the 2nd best written version of Goku and the best written version of Vegeta, etc)?
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by PFM18 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:32 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
The Android/Cell arcs, the Pilaf arc and most of Super (except the Black arc) is easily worse than the Buu saga overall.
No, not really. The Buu arc is extremely, long while adding very little of value. It's length combined with the bad quality makes it an excruciating rewatch. A short bad arc>>>A long bad arc. And all of the arcs in question give you more "bang for your buck" in terms of value of that story than the Buu arc which is very lengthy but devoid but fairly devoid of anything substantive, making it an empty husk of an arc. The only arc in question that the Buu arc has an argument over, as far as I'm concerned, is the RoF arc. Everything else is better.
And what exactly does the Android arc (with its numerous plot holes, retcons and characters acting stupid just to move the story), DBS BoG (which does everything worse than its movie version), the Pilaf arc (which is a whole lot of boring nothing) and RoF in general (which almost ruined Freeza's character, has zero tension at all despite not being a light-hearted story, has even more PIS, etc) have over the Buu saga (which had the best on average art design, 3 of the franchises greatest fights, the 2nd best written version of Goku and the best written version of Vegeta, etc)?
First and foremost, they don't have trash villains and don't introduce trash new characters. Buu is a terrible villain, is extremely boring, Gotenks is a character that induces "humor" in cases where it isn't organic or coherent, and that among other things, makes the arc feel very forced and strange.

How the BoG arc compares to it's movie version is irrelevant. It is it's own arc, and has it's own merit irrespective of the movie.(Not that it is actually worse than it's movie version either) I didn't say RoF was better, so you even mentioning it doesn't even make sense.

Goku really isn't written exceptionally well in the Buu arc. He's really especially moronic in that arc. Between him saving Satan over his children, and him just not dealing with the danger because he wants to pawn it off on the kids as though everything isn't at stake. Vegeta's character development in the arc is extremely overrated. Vegeta is written infinitely better in Super than the hBuu arc. The Buu arc doesn't even have close to any of the best fights. None of the fights in the arc are especially good/compelling.

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Re: Pure Boo being above Evil Boo (atleast without absorptions) makes way more sense narrative-wise

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:59 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
No, not really. The Buu arc is extremely, long while adding very little of value. It's length combined with the bad quality makes it an excruciating rewatch. A short bad arc>>>A long bad arc. And all of the arcs in question give you more "bang for your buck" in terms of value of that story than the Buu arc which is very lengthy but devoid but fairly devoid of anything substantive, making it an empty husk of an arc. The only arc in question that the Buu arc has an argument over, as far as I'm concerned, is the RoF arc. Everything else is better.
And what exactly does the Android arc (with its numerous plot holes, retcons and characters acting stupid just to move the story), DBS BoG (which does everything worse than its movie version), the Pilaf arc (which is a whole lot of boring nothing) and RoF in general (which almost ruined Freeza's character, has zero tension at all despite not being a light-hearted story, has even more PIS, etc) have over the Buu saga (which had the best on average art design, 3 of the franchises greatest fights, the 2nd best written version of Goku and the best written version of Vegeta, etc)?
First and foremost, they don't have trash villains and don't introduce trash new characters. Buu is a terrible villain, is extremely boring, Gotenks is a character that induces "humor" in cases where it isn't organic or coherent, and that among other things, makes the arc feel very forced and strange.

How the BoG arc compares to it's movie version is irrelevant. It is it's own arc, and has it's own merit irrespective of the movie.(Not that it is actually worse than it's movie version either) I didn't say RoF was better, so you even mentioning it doesn't even make sense.

Goku really isn't written exceptionally well in the Buu arc. He's really especially moronic in that arc. Between him saving Satan over his children, and him just not dealing with the danger because he wants to pawn it off on the kids as though everything isn't at stake. Vegeta's character development in the arc is extremely overrated. Vegeta is written infinitely better in Super than the hBuu arc. The Buu arc doesn't even have close to any of the best fights. None of the fights in the arc are especially good/compelling.
1. Fat Buu & Base Super Buu have more personality and menace to them than both Hit & Jiren.
2. Goku saved Mr. Satan over his kids because A) he was right in front of him, B) his instant transmission didn't work, so he couldn't reach them (and needed Shin to get him & Vegeta off the planet).
3. DBS Vegeta compared to Z Vegeta (especially the Buu arc) is a bland, boring, less badass, slightly-regressed version of his former self (still better than his GT version though). The only development of any kind he gets in Super is the Cabba stuff, and its only from 2nd half of the Black onward is when he becomes interesting and badass again.
4. The anime versions of Goku vs Majin Vegeta and Goku & Vegeta vs Kid Buu are easily both top 10 fights of the franchise, and Goku/Vegeta/Vegito vs Buuhan is a top 15 fight.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Pantalones
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Pantalones » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:19 pm

Why do many people believe that Evil Boo was stronger than Pure Boo?
Because Goku spent Super Buu's entire existence avoiding him and admitting outright that he couldn't win against that form of Buu.

And then as soon as Kid Buu turns up he's all "yeah, we did it, we can handle him now!"... and it's not just a statement that can be brushed off as Goku underestimating Kid Buu, it's shown, because shortly after that statement Goku proceeds to fight him evenly using SSj3, only failing to defeat him because he underestimated just how much the SSj3 form drained his energy when used in a living body (which he hadn't really done before.)

Goku could have beaten Kid Buu if SSj3 wasn't such an energy-hogging form. Goku couldn't have beaten Super Buu, period. Therefore, Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu.

The power level "chain" for this saga goes like Gohan > Super Buu ~= Gotenks > Goku = Kid Buu > Fat Buu > Vegeta. That much is very clear. The only really vague parts are how guys like Kibito-Kaioshin (too weak to help against Super Buu, sure... but how does he compare to the unfused Saiyans?), the Kaioshins that Buu absorbed (was either of them actually strong enough to fight Kid Buu on a semi-even level, or was it just their techniques that gave Buu some trouble?), and the skinny gray Buu (he had "most of Fat Buu's power"... so is that most of the power we saw him use against Vegeta and Goku? or did final rage before splitting, after Mr. Satan got shot, boost him well above that level, making the gray Buu possibly stronger than the Fat Buu that Vegeta and Goku fought?) fit in.

Literally the only things pointing toward Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu are some anime-only lines that made it sound like Kid Buu was the "most powerful" Buu rather than simply being the original and "most dangerous" or "most troublesome" due to his chaotic, violent nature (in addition to still being SSj3-level strong... so even though he wasn't quite as overwhelming as Super Buu, he was stronger than the fat Buu which Goku admitted he could've beaten if he hadn't already decided on wanting the next generation to do it instead.) Anime filler just complicates things. Going by the manga, it's very clear which Buu is the strongest.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:22 pm

Pantalones wrote:
Why do many people believe that Evil Boo was stronger than Pure Boo?
Because Goku spent Super Buu's entire existence avoiding him and admitting outright that he couldn't win against that form of Buu.
Somehow, this fact is simply unacceptable for various head canons. The argument is that Pure Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo but that he also must arbitrarily be enough of a threat that fusion is required to defeat him. Meanwhile, Goku crushes the Potara when contemplating fighting Pure Boo with it; Goku would have to be utterly insane to do something like that even if you account for Goku maybe having powered up in the interim. The fusion dance was also nixed as an option against the alleged "strongest Boo" in favor of a full power blast so the conclusion should be obvious.
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