Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by coola » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:51 pm

Polish translation was little different,

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he (Bibbidi) considred his creation to be complete...in short, thats true quintessential of evil, most dangerous form of Boo?…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…first, most dangerous form of Boo, not limited by absorption, no self control, pure evil…”

From what i understand there, Kid Boo was not as strong as Super Buu, but more dangerous ones, you could try and negotiate with Super Buu, Pure Buu just wanted to destroy...

I think he is stronger than Evil Buu, again, bsaed on Polish translation "1st (Fat) Buu was no match for new Buu, after seperation his new half took away more than half of his energy". Evil Buu had more than half power of Majin Buu, and Vegeta managed to put decent fight against Majin Buu, while fighting with Kid Buu he said "So fast and heavy blows, how Kakarotto managed to fight him?"
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by TobyS » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:46 pm

The proof is the implicit fact that they are willing to fight him. That's how we know Kid is weaker than Evil Buu. If you can't read between the lines for a comic meant for japanese ten year old boys in the 90's that's on you.

Gohan donated GENKI to the GENKI dama, not his entire ki. Regardless the ball obviously did have the strength to kill him, because it did kill him, Goku was just too weak to push it into him. an axe can cut down a tree but not if the users arms are too tired to swing it.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:07 pm

If you pay attention, it's not really supported by the story by any means. Pretty much every statement about Pure Boo compared to his fellow versions implies he's far outmatched by Super Boo and his variations.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“


As the fight proceeds, only Vegeta is expressed to have underestimated Boo, with Vegeta actually claiming Goku has the power to do such, and Goku agrees, but admits his own pride and the drawbacks of Super Saiyan 3 hold him back from such. That also covers the part of Goku's training. He clearly cannot gain any more power as it's stated he hit his limits, so from that point onwards he'd be focusing on perfecting the SSJ3 transformation.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for a bit
Vegeta: “…Heh…You never intended to switch out, even from the beginning. Don’t spout such transparent lies…You knew…That I’d be killed at once.”
Goku: “Huh!? N-no, that’s not it…”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Don’t try sparing my feelings…The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”


Granted you did argue Goku would heigthen his power by charging a Kamehameha, but there's a vital problem: Where would Goku take power from? The Kamehameha is described as merely condensing one's latent energy in a point and then firing it. Given how Goku has drawn his power to it's limits with the Super Saiyan 3 transformation, there's no more power to drawn from, and Goku's Kamehameha is not going to be any strong than his own power.

Yamcha: “The ‘Kamehameha’…! It’s Muten Roshi’s grand technique, which is said to condense the latent energy within his b-body, and fire it out in one burst…! To think that I’d be able to see it with my own eyes…!”
Daizenshuu 7's Technique Dictionary wrote:Description: The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time.
This is also supported within guidebooks; Daizenshuu 7 describes Pure Boo as somewhat stronger than Fat Boo (Who Goku could fight evenly with) and Dragon Ball Forever

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:04 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Except Burter was proven to be outclassed by Goku and Goku equally fighting Kid Buu backs up his statement. Proof and action go hand in hand.
give me the quote where Goku's saying he's fighting Toe to Toe. Goku told Vegeta he's not holding back and after gathering ki for a minute he came to the conclusion it's not enough and then pushed his limits even more. Gathering ki thing here is same as Piccolo's Makankosappo.
...
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”
Miracles wrote:Wrong again...The only reason why Goku fought Gotenks Buu was to stall for Gohan to look for the patora. So he could fuse with him and beat Gotenks Buu. Again you aren't paying attention to the story.
Unless you saw Goku go ssj3 to save his life near Evil Boo its pointless assumption since in manga Goku said that to make Vegeta fuse and his confidence to fight pure Boo is not something which should be taken into account since he instantly admitted he was trying to act cool. Which puts both him and Evil Boo in same boat.
Wrong again, we have Kakarot directly state Evil Buu will kill him and Vegeta. But you say he is "in the same boat as Evil Buu?" Lol, That means you are using headcanon, contradicting the story.. Then you say Goku's statement about being confident in fighting Kid Buu alone shouldn't be taken into account cause he was trying to act cool? LOL, that means Goku's confidence about fighting Kid Buu was proven SINCE he was able to fight Kid Buu on a equal playing field and even showed off Super Saiyan three while acting cool by doing it. The fact that he could of possibly wiped Kid Buu out with his full power ki is more proof he was on a level playing field with Kid Buu but he outright states it's not the case with Evil Buu.
Miracles wrote:See...You are contradicting the story...Kid Buu's Ki did not shoot up from Evil Buu. Kakarot and Vegeta already proved that as stated above. So that means the absorption quote was strictly concerning the Kaioshin Kid Buu absorbed which in turn lowered his power compared to his pure kid buu state.

Then, why didn't Goku who always uses the term "ki" never mentioned it? He instantly did that when Evil Boo reverted to base, he was the one asking Vegeta on Boo's ki going down then why didn't he mentioned it? When did Goku and Vegeta proved that? according to your logic Second Form Cell > Perfect Cell since Vegeta told Cell that he doesn't seem to get powerful in Perfect form. Kaioshin ki can't power up Boo as implied by Dabra who never took Ki of Kaioshins even though he was planning to send henchmen to take ki from vastly inferior fodder humans. South Kaioshin can't be as strong as Pure Boo as well otherwise, you are contradicting the the Legend of Z Sword and how no one has ever lifted it. Kaioshin ki can not add, Boo can't access Ki of someone who's not inside him, he was just transforming in reverse and if you read the lines, Kaioshin never implied that South Kaioshin powered him up, it's your headcanon.

Kaioshin absorption was concerning the Kai's Kid Buu absorbed. The flashback showed only the Kai's and the text only compared Kid Buu to his absorption of the two Kai's. If Kid Buu's power increased Goku wouldn't have been confident to fight Kid Buu head up and he did equally unlike being scared of Evil Buu. You better reread the text.
No, he never pointed that out. Boo can't get powerful by divine ki and that's what Dabra said when he said he can't take Kaioshin ki but others are still option. There's no flashback in manga to begin with only expositions and 2 new pictures, that's it. Also you aren't making sense with your statement, Goku on the contrary loves fighting strong guys. Why does he enter to fight final form Freeza and Cell? Why does he enter to fight Vegeta? It's the same thing of desire and battle hunger, Toriyama already stated it both in manga and interviews. He wanted to fight one on one because unlike Gohan-Boo, he now can go all out without having to worry for saving the kids and can use ssj3 as much as he can now that he wanted to fight with his own powers. No, he wasn't scared 4 of the 5 faces in those panels were Gag faces, like someone trying to goof around, i am sorry that's not how we interpret fear when he's making comedic faces. Even if he went to fight Evil Boo and was outclassed he would be in same pinch as with Pure Boo. Also stop with the Headcanons of Boo ki decreasing when no one said so, Goku's desire to test his powers is his main trait. With Evil Boo he said all that to convince Vegeta and guess what he did before that? He noted fall in Evil Boo ki and instantly said that. Everytime he noticed fall in Ki he remarked about that, it's what you say is true then why didn't he said it explicitly that Pure Boo ki is weak enough when it's supposedly his cause of relief? Contrary to your claim, his reply was right after Vegeta laughing at Pure Boo's size. Why was he judging his attack by its size in next panels? Why didn't he go ssj3 to stop it? Because he knows he can't and in original he says that "because things are dangerous but Boo ain't merged" as the reason for not merging and what happened afterwards? "Potara was the right choice, i tried to act too cool", none of his statements inside Evil Boo have anything to do with it when character admits his inferiority.
I never stated South Kaioshin powered Kid Buu up. I have been stating the direct opposite which is what Kaioshin stated. That the absorbed Kaioshin Buu's [Buff Buu and fat Buu] were WEAKER than Kid Buu. This is why Kaioshin said his power increased after expelling the absorption of those two Kai's. The entire subject was concerning kid Buu in relation to those absorption of the Kai's only. This is why Goku felt he could fight Kid Buu and not be able to fight Evil Buu cause he told us the Ki difference when he noted that evil Buu would outright kill him. He never stated this for Kid Buu. The power difference was proven when Goku fought Kid Buu head up [even stated that he could wipe him out with full ki] but said he would be no match for Evil Buu. You are not paying attention. Stop using headcanon.

Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu. Canon fact.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:57 am

Darkprince410 wrote: Do you think that Goku would have judged Buu solely on his size if his ki was even higher than someone that he had admitted, only a few minutes beforehand, was someone far too strong for him and Vegeta to fight, and that they'd die if they attempted to do so? That'd be extremely out of character for him to do so, not to mention just illogical in general. For Vegeta? Sure, and with what he says, it's undeniable that he was speaking of Buu's physical size, but with Goku, it'd make no sense, and there's nothing to support that he was doing so. Even though both of them admit later that Buu is doing better than what they may have initially anticipated, that doesn't change that Goku's reaction to him implies a power drop, otherwise there's no logical reason that he'd act confident in any way given his previous fears regarding Evil Buu.

In terms of planet exploding, it is a big concern if they're not ready for it and aren't able to stop the individual in time. Look at Freeza in Super. In his final form, weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, yet he blew up the Earth within inches of Vegeta and wiped out everyone except those that Whis had shielded. Therein lies what I'm saying as far as Vegeta's potential fear. What if none of the Z Senshi are around when the evil Buu forms again, and he goes and blows up the Earth immediately upon forming. Everyone is therefore dead and the universe is doomed. That fits Vegeta's fears perfectly well without having Buu need to be more powerful than Gohan or Gotenks for it to happen. Likewise, as said, all that Goku's comment says is that he wants to prepare so that even if it is up to him and Vegeta to fight again, they'll be ready. He isn't excluding Gohan or Gotenks in the mix (and his "worse comes to worst" comment can be taken as being about them), just that he's wanting to be prepared, alongside Vegeta, to be able to fight Buu one-on-one should he appear in the future.

And no, the Genki Dama only uses genki, even with the Super Genki Dama. Sometimes, it gets shortened to ki when being discussed, but it is always just genki being actually collected. Goku specifically cries out for everyone's genki when he was collecting it to use against Buu. Even when it came to the regular Genki Dama during the Saiyan and Freeza arc, sometimes the word ki was used instead of genki, but it was still just genki being collected.
Gag faces ≠ fear, even Seiyuu and Toei Animation understood that scene that's why Nozawa uses comedic tone as if he's not serious. And with Gohan-Boo, his main priority wasn't to kill Boo but to go inside him and free his sons but here in final battle its clear what he's going for and not he doesn't need to hold back ssj3 anymore which he was trying to do in entire arc. If you're taking Goku's statement in Boo at face value than you have to admit Goku = Vegeta since that's what he said on RoSaT. So you are telling me, Goku would not tell Vegeta about ki drop of a creature he has been keeping his eyes on? Again the funny thing is it's your vague interpretation because no one mentioned ki drop. Neither Saiyans nor gods literally no one did that, even though whenever Evil Boo ki dropped it increased they notified the people. Goku's reaction to Pure Boo is in reply to Vegeta, it's clear. Saiyans can act reckless, it's evident by things they did before and underestimating a threat is pretty normal.

No, that doesn't make sense. Evil Boo was chaotic as well like laughing for no reason, killing a random person or screaming for no reason and getting angry. Even Gotenks-Boo was trying to destroy the planet so i don't know how destroying planets makes Pure Boo dangerous. First of all, there's no reason Goku or anyone can't sense fluctuations in Boo considering Goku was able to sense the ki of Evil Boo from Kaioshin realm and with his Teleport Technique he can reach anywhere in seconds so there's no reason to fear and on top of that Goku said that they should train so that they can take him on one-on-one in worst case scenario and he never mentions anything like he's not including Gohan so assumptions are headcanon here. His worst case scenario is in reply to to Vegeta saying that another Pure Boo will emerge.

No, "Genki Dama" is not even a thing, it's a pun on "Denki Gama" which means electric rice cooker. "Genki" can be used interchangeably with "Ki". There is nothing such as "Genki" in us, we all have "Ki". "Genki deska" is used to ask for a health of someone. You are telling me the Rocks and plants have "Genki"? That doesn't even make sense. It's Ki which Goku collects in his sphere. Traditional Genki Dama only took a little bit of Ki but here Vegeta asked them to give all and its evident when we see a man fall on his knees after giving it and many left exhausted and not being able to stand for sometime. Even Kibitoshin wasn't able to teleport due to giving his Ki so Genki Dama always takes ki and that's why after giving the ki characters are exhausted for a while.
Miracles wrote: ...
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”


Who are the ones fighting him? Only Goku and Vegeta were the alive warriors and Vegeta thinks Goku is the only one who can fight him. If you're taking statements out of context then Goku > Gohan since either way Vegeta was seeing their battle from Afterlife and knew everything that happened.
Miracles wrote: Wrong again, we have Kakarot directly state Evil Buu will kill him and Vegeta. But you say he is "in the same boat as Evil Buu?" Lol, That means you are using headcanon, contradicting the story.. Then you say Goku's statement about being confident in fighting Kid Buu alone shouldn't be taken into account cause he was trying to act cool? LOL, that means Goku's confidence about fighting Kid Buu was proven SINCE he was able to fight Kid Buu on a equal playing field and even showed off Super Saiyan three while acting cool by doing it. The fact that he could of possibly wiped Kid Buu out with his full power ki is more proof he was on a level playing field with Kid Buu but he outright states it's not the case with Evil Buu.

Never said he's in same boat but to Goku, fusion is better option than using ssj3 as he has said earlier that he wanted to beat Fat Boo by fusing with Gohan or Vegeta only to later say that he could have killed him alone. Maybe we are reading different mangas but Goku states that Pure Boo was having fun and toying with him and on top of that came back by regeneration even if Goku fires 2 Kamehamehas. Him collecting ki for a minute is similar to Piccolo's Makankosappo and what does Goku realizes? He kept on saying "this is still not enough to wipe him" which means this was never gonna happen. He himself admitted that he tried to show off way too much and potara was better option and Vegeta was thinking Goku's holding back with Pure Boo to spare his feelings but Goku says he's trying to kill him but Pure Boo wasn't giving any chances and now he was thinking of gathering ki full power like what Cell was trying to do with Gohan but it was all supposed to be meaningless since Goku was heat of the moment currently and trying to do what he can but Pure Boo was at one point winning even after taking Universal Genki Dama, if Goku hadn't cheated with Porunga wish in the last second.


Miracles wrote:I never stated South Kaioshin powered Kid Buu up. I have been stating the direct opposite which is what Kaioshin stated. That the absorbed Kaioshin Buu's [Buff Buu and fat Buu] were WEAKER than Kid Buu. This is why Kaioshin said his power increased after expelling the absorption of those two Kai's. The entire subject was concerning kid Buu in relation to those absorption of the Kai's only. This is why Goku felt he could fight Kid Buu and not be able to fight Evil Buu cause he told us the Ki difference when he noted that evil Buu would outright kill him. He never stated this for Kid Buu. The power difference was proven when Goku fought Kid Buu head up [even stated that he could wipe him out with full ki] but said he would be no match for Evil Buu. You are not paying attention. Stop using headcanon.

Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu. Canon fact.
You twisted everything there, it's a fact in manga that Buff Boo > Evil Boo and without any evidence of someone commenting on ki you can't say otherwise. So even Buff Boo is weaker than Pure Boo he's far above Evil Boo. You just supported me there :D :D :D.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:If you pay attention, it's not really supported by the story by any means. Pretty much every statement about Pure Boo compared to his fellow versions implies he's far outmatched by Super Boo and his variations.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“


As the fight proceeds, only Vegeta is expressed to have underestimated Boo, with Vegeta actually claiming Goku has the power to do such, and Goku agrees, but admits his own pride and the drawbacks of Super Saiyan 3 hold him back from such. That also covers the part of Goku's training. He clearly cannot gain any more power as it's stated he hit his limits, so from that point onwards he'd be focusing on perfecting the SSJ3 transformation.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for a bit
Vegeta: “…Heh…You never intended to switch out, even from the beginning. Don’t spout such transparent lies…You knew…That I’d be killed at once.”
Goku: “Huh!? N-no, that’s not it…”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Don’t try sparing my feelings…The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”


Granted you did argue Goku would heigthen his power by charging a Kamehameha, but there's a vital problem: Where would Goku take power from? The Kamehameha is described as merely condensing one's latent energy in a point and then firing it. Given how Goku has drawn his power to it's limits with the Super Saiyan 3 transformation, there's no more power to drawn from, and Goku's Kamehameha is not going to be any strong than his own power.

Yamcha: “The ‘Kamehameha’…! It’s Muten Roshi’s grand technique, which is said to condense the latent energy within his b-body, and fire it out in one burst…! To think that I’d be able to see it with my own eyes…!”
Daizenshuu 7's Technique Dictionary wrote:Description: The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time.
This is also supported within guidebooks; Daizenshuu 7 describes Pure Boo as somewhat stronger than Fat Boo (Who Goku could fight evenly with) and Dragon Ball Forever

Image
That was the point, Vegeta thought it will work for better but you really think he will get even weaker than Good Boo?

Goku wanting to obliterate Boo has got nothing to do with him being stronger but similar to how Piccolo wanted to gather enough ki to kill Raditz and asking someone else to distract Boo, that's it.

These same guides imply that Evil Boo is just little stronger than Fat Boo and Pure Boo being the strongest unfused Boo btw.
TobyS wrote:The proof is the implicit fact that they are willing to fight him. That's how we know Kid is weaker than Evil Buu. If you can't read between the lines for a comic meant for japanese ten year old boys in the 90's that's on you.

Gohan donated GENKI to the GENKI dama, not his entire ki. Regardless the ball obviously did have the strength to kill him, because it did kill him, Goku was just too weak to push it into him. an axe can cut down a tree but not if the users arms are too tired to swing it.
Nope, you are just taking into account one thing and not other. Kaioshins are angry at Goku for refusing potara, Goku regret refusing potara and Kaioshin know more about Boo than Goku. Who's right?

Yea so for your narrative to work they would not bring an easy solution to Kaioshin planet and want to risk everything on Genki Dama? No one including Piccolo or Old Kaioshin recommends Gohan to one shot Boo but are giving their two cents on Genki Dama plan? Vegeta thought Gohan and Gotenks won't be a help and upon Pure Boo discovering Genki Dama saying "this is the end for us", everyone from Earth, Namek, Afterlife is praying for Genki Dama to work but no one points out the supposedly stronger than Gohan can do the job? Vegeta is willing to get himself smashed to pulp by Boo just to stall pure boo to not look at Genki Dama and later asks Goku to fire it to take both him and Pure Boo out but not wanting easy Victory? Everyone acting like the Universe will be doomed if Genki Dama fails even though Gohan is there? Goku calling earthlings "stupid bastards" for not giving him ki and saying how the earth will be destroyed even though his strong son can one shot boo?
Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”

Look, Elder Kaioshin has shown that he takes Boo seriously, he powered up Boo and he gave Potara and he has been shown giving his 2 cents on plan. He knows Gohan and he powered him up and felt his ki, he recommended potara instantly when he saw Pure Boo. There's no reason for him acting like the last hope is gone if Gohan was above Pure Boo. Dende has shown how sharp he is, he recommended really good ideas and saw Gohan in battle, if Gohan is above Pure Boo he should have recommended him.

coola wrote:Polish translation was little different,

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he (Bibbidi) considred his creation to be complete...in short, thats true quintessential of evil, most dangerous form of Boo?…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…first, most dangerous form of Boo, not limited by absorption, no self control, pure evil…”

From what i understand there, Kid Boo was not as strong as Super Buu, but more dangerous ones, you could try and negotiate with Super Buu, Pure Buu just wanted to destroy...

I think he is stronger than Evil Buu, again, bsaed on Polish translation "1st (Fat) Buu was no match for new Buu, after seperation his new half took away more than half of his energy". Evil Buu had more than half power of Majin Buu, and Vegeta managed to put decent fight against Majin Buu, while fighting with Kid Buu he said "So fast and heavy blows, how Kakarotto managed to fight him?"
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


It's like this in herms translation of original and even Anime (DBZ episode 277)

Boo without any Kaioshin influences on his soul is at his most powerful. This is stated in the mangas. Both in the original japanese manga, and the Viz too. Evil Boo had Kaioshin influences, as soon as they were removed, his ki is stated to become stronger and the result of this is Pure Boo. Literally, Evil Boo (Super boo) minus all kais results in Pure Boo.

Chubby Boo does represent both Kaioshins, as when he is removed, Boo returns to his original form that has no one absorbed. Disconnecting Good Boo = disconnecting BOTH South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin. It's impossible for Boo to be accessing his South Kaioshin-absorbed ki because South Kaioshin is no longer connected. The ki that began increasing from Super Boo's ki when fat Boo was removed was Kid Boo's ki all along, as that is literally the only ki left in Boo's system.
Also that thing about "no he's just dangerous and not strong" is just wrong. Did Gotenks-Boo listened to Goku? Did Evil Boo stopped from eating everyone on Heavenly Realm? Evil Boo is also hard to reason with like how he doesn't like to wait for Gotenks to show up and goes inside either way and read through Piccolo's schemes of stalling him. Gotenks-Boo wanted to destroy earth too for fun so that argument of chaotic makes no sense. Elder Kaioshin was mostly implying that Pure Boo is strongest unfused Boo. Why is an opponent difficult in DBZ? Because of power. Final Form Freeza is difficult to beat, Perfect Cell is difficult to beat, the Difficult in DBZ is proportionate to Power. The whole narrative doesn't even make sense with Gohan being above Boo but people taking his name but not calling him then thinking if genki Dama fails its the end and elder Kaioshin who made Gohan stronger not calling him, it's nonsense this way.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:01 am

Ripper 30 wrote:The whole narrative doesn't even make sense with Gohan being above Boo but people taking his name but not calling him then thinking if genki Dama fails its the end and elder Kaioshin who made Gohan stronger not calling him, it's nonsense this way.
Yeah, the best argument you could make in defense of Pure Boo in the story is the final clash with Goku. In another way, Goku implying Evil Boo is stronger than him only makes sense if he Goku is excluding SS3 or power wasn’t the decisive factor in Pure Boo’s superiority.

After thinking about it, I believe the story makes sense if Pure Boo ended up being the opposite of what Goku and Vegeta were trying to achieve and they were blinded by the accomplishment of shrinking Boo. Anyway, his powerlevel could have been supressed to the same level Boo had when he appeared for the first time, since Vegeta thought he had a chance against him in both situations.

So, we could possibly explain away Goku’s remark and assume he is leveling himself with Vegeta.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:30 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:The whole narrative doesn't even make sense with Gohan being above Boo but people taking his name but not calling him then thinking if genki Dama fails its the end and elder Kaioshin who made Gohan stronger not calling him, it's nonsense this way.
Yeah, the best argument you could make in defense of Pure Boo in the story is the final clash with Goku. In another way, Goku implying Evil Boo is stronger than him only makes sense if he Goku is excluding SS3 or power wasn’t the decisive factor in Pure Boo’s superiority.

After thinking about it, I believe the story makes sense if Pure Boo ended up being the opposite of what Goku and Vegeta were trying to achieve and they were blinded by the accomplishment of shrinking Boo. Anyway, his powerlevel could have been supressed to the same level Boo had when he appeared for the first time, since Vegeta thought he had a chance against him in both situations.

So, we could possibly explain away Goku’s remark and assume he is leveling himself with Vegeta.
This is no different from Saiyan arc where Goku goes in to face final enemy, loses and then is reliant on help from others. If people take just one statement Goku made inside Evil Boo then they should not ignore many other claims which support the claim of Pure Boo being the strongest unfused character. Goku was confident that Gohan can beat Piccolo-Boo alone but with Pure Boo he was guessing that Vegeta plans to bring Gohan and Gotenks to join them in fighting Pure Boo. I think that alone says it all. Along with how, Taking out Good Boo results in instant Ki increase which characters comment about and no one mentioned that it decreased. When had that ever happened? We all know how Evil Boo ki goes down the moment Piccolo and the kids are detached and in a POP he reverts to base Evil Boo form but here it goes up after removing it. On top of that Kaioshin told that Boo lowered his power through absorptions and he was happy with seeing Gohan-Boo revert to Base Evil Boo form but literally starting sweating by seeing Pure Boo.
Which means that ki which was rising was blocked power of Pure Boo and Kaioshin wasn't fretting over nothing, he knew that Vegeta screwed up again by detaching the Good Boo and Elder Kaioshin definitely meant the "Strongest unfused Boo" by "The first most difficult Boo" because in DBZ power is everything especially in Z Part. Cell in Perfect form > Anyone and he's the most difficult opponent because of power. People use the argument of Kid Boo only being dangerous because he destroys planets, which is not that good of an argument since Super Boo brutally kills a man by filling him by going inside his body and then exploding him from inside and in Gotenks-Boo form trying to destroy the earth for lols. I wish Toriyama had just used "Strongest" there to make it apparent, even anime mirrors his intention. Everything flows properly this way then assuming Gohan was always above Pure Boo and Toriyama nerfed the villain. Why can't he just nerf Gohan and bring a stronger form? This is Toriyama who likes the concept of strongest not looking the bulkiest after all and loves to go against expectations of viewers. Look at the character design of Omni King for example and his power, it's same with Pure Boo.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:10 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote: ...
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”


Who are the ones fighting him? Only Goku and Vegeta were the alive warriors and Vegeta thinks Goku is the only one who can fight him. If you're taking statements out of context then Goku > Gohan since either way Vegeta was seeing their battle from Afterlife and knew everything that happened.
None of that changes the fact that Vegeta's statement was proven by action that Goku fought Kid Buu toe-to-toe.
Miracles wrote: Wrong again, we have Kakarot directly state Evil Buu will kill him and Vegeta. But you say he is "in the same boat as Evil Buu?" Lol, That means you are using headcanon, contradicting the story.. Then you say Goku's statement about being confident in fighting Kid Buu alone shouldn't be taken into account cause he was trying to act cool? LOL, that means Goku's confidence about fighting Kid Buu was proven SINCE he was able to fight Kid Buu on a equal playing field and even showed off Super Saiyan three while acting cool by doing it. The fact that he could of possibly wiped Kid Buu out with his full power ki is more proof he was on a level playing field with Kid Buu but he outright states it's not the case with Evil Buu.
Never said he's in same boat but to Goku, fusion is better option than using ssj3 as he has said earlier that he wanted to beat Fat Boo by fusing with Gohan or Vegeta only to later say that he could have killed him alone. Maybe we are reading different mangas but Goku states that Pure Boo was having fun and toying with him and on top of that came back by regeneration even if Goku fires 2 Kamehamehas. Him collecting ki for a minute is similar to Piccolo's Makankosappo and what does Goku realizes? He kept on saying "this is still not enough to wipe him" which means this was never gonna happen. He himself admitted that he tried to show off way too much and potara was better option and Vegeta was thinking Goku's holding back with Pure Boo to spare his feelings but Goku says he's trying to kill him but Pure Boo wasn't giving any chances and now he was thinking of gathering ki full power like what Cell was trying to do with Gohan but it was all supposed to be meaningless since Goku was heat of the moment currently and trying to do what he can but Pure Boo was at one point winning even after taking Universal Genki Dama, if Goku hadn't cheated with Porunga wish in the last second.
Again, you can continue to write meaningless paragraphs about what you think statements mean. However none of it changes the fact that Goku said and did NOT engage Evil Buu but engaged Kid Buu and put up a fight. Statements and action > your opinion.
Miracles wrote:I never stated South Kaioshin powered Kid Buu up. I have been stating the direct opposite which is what Kaioshin stated. That the absorbed Kaioshin Buu's [Buff Buu and fat Buu] were WEAKER than Kid Buu. This is why Kaioshin said his power increased after expelling the absorption of those two Kai's. The entire subject was concerning kid Buu in relation to those absorption of the Kai's only. This is why Goku felt he could fight Kid Buu and not be able to fight Evil Buu cause he told us the Ki difference when he noted that evil Buu would outright kill him. He never stated this for Kid Buu. The power difference was proven when Goku fought Kid Buu head up [even stated that he could wipe him out with full ki] but said he would be no match for Evil Buu. You are not paying attention. Stop using headcanon.

Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu. Canon fact.

You twisted everything there, it's a fact in manga that Buff Boo > Evil Boo and without any evidence of someone commenting on ki you can't say otherwise. So even Buff Boo is weaker than Pure Boo he's far above Evil Boo. You just supported me there :D :D :D.
Wrong again, it was stated by Kaioshin that buff buu was weaker than kid Buu. Who was stated/shown to be weaker than evil Buu. It's impossible for Buff Buu > Evil Buu.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:09 pm

Miracles wrote: None of that changes the fact that Vegeta's statement was proven by action that Goku fought Kid Buu toe-to-toe.

Yea taking things out of context is such a fair thing, Vegeta was thinking Goku is holding back for him and he can finish him off if fighting earnestly.
Miracles wrote:
Again, you can continue to write meaningless paragraphs about what you think statements mean. However none of it changes the fact that Goku said and did NOT engage Evil Buu but engaged Kid Buu and put up a fight. Statements and action > your opinion.
Goku thought Gohan can handle Piccolo-Boo but wanted Gohan and Gotenks to join them in fighting Boo, yea ignore that.
Miracles wrote: Wrong again, it was stated by Kaioshin that buff buu was weaker than kid Buu. Who was stated/shown to be weaker than evil Buu. It's impossible for Buff Buu > Evil Buu.
Lol no, Pure Boo was never stated to be weaker than Evil Boo in manga. They never ever commented on Pure Boo's ki being weaker than before other than your vague interpretations, the only time they did was after he was obliterated by Genki Dama. It was stated by manga itself that Buff Boo was stronger than Evil Boo so you are supporting me.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:20 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: None of that changes the fact that Vegeta's statement was proven by action that Goku fought Kid Buu toe-to-toe.
Yea taking things out of context is such a fair thing, Vegeta was thinking Goku is holding back for him and he can finish him off if fighting earnestly.
What you just stated does not disprove the fact that Goku was said to be able to fight kid buu on a level playing field. Which he did.
Again, you can continue to write meaningless paragraphs about what you think statements mean. However none of it changes the fact that Goku said and did NOT engage Evil Buu but engaged Kid Buu and put up a fight. Statements and action > your opinion. Goku thought Gohan can handle Piccolo-Boo but wanted Gohan and Gotenks to join them in fighting Boo, yea ignore that.
This doesn't disprove Goku's statements and action about not wanting to fight Evil Buu but wanting and showed that he could fight Kid Buu. Trying to discredit Goku isn't going to work for you when he was proven not guilty here.
Miracles wrote: Wrong again, it was stated by Kaioshin that buff buu was weaker than kid Buu. Who was stated/shown to be weaker than evil Buu. It's impossible for Buff Buu > Evil Buu.
Lol no, Pure Boo was never stated to be weaker than Evil Boo in manga. They never ever commented on Pure Boo's ki being weaker than before other than your vague interpretations, the only time they did was after he was obliterated by Genki Dama. It was stated by manga itself that Buff Boo was stronger than Evil Boo so you are supporting me.
Goku outright said Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. He wanted to fuse against Super Buu but wanted to fight Kid Buu one on one and DID just that. Super Buu > Kid Buu...
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Regarder » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:46 pm

I really think the "We did it" line already mentioned is the clincher and adding in loads of other arguments is just going off into the weeds and obscuring things with ambiguous maybes. There's no need to argue for anything else but for or against that line, because if "we did it" means anything at all it should correspond to what their actual goal was, which was lowering Boo's power. What does "we did it" mean, but "we successfully lowered Boo's power as we've been trying for ages". If anything, the fact that they comment on the Buff Boo (who is later outright stated to be a product of South Kaioshin absorption) and his higher ki clarifies what "it" is meant to be, as it's all part of the same scene. It's part of a double fake out where first their plan appears to fail because Boo is becoming stronger, then he turns again, and suddenly "we did it" (necessarily meaning his ki must have dropped) and then we find that's another fake out, because then Pure Boo decides to destroy the planet instead of fighting them, meaning so much for their plan.

The only way they can say "we did it" and Boo's ki remains the same as the Buff form or even higher is if they suddenly decided on that moment to stop feeling for his ki, even though they've been feeling it the entire time in line with their goal of weakening it. What else makes sense here? It really is the clincher.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:52 pm

Like I said in my first post, Goku going from "[Evil Boo] is too strong and will kill us for sure" to "yeah, we can take [Pure Boo]" barely one chapter later... that IS the supposedly elusive "Pure Boo is now weaker than Evil Boo" statement.

When <Character A> definitively states that <Character B> is too strong for them, but then shows themselves able to fight <Character C> evenly, then that means <Character C> is weaker than <Character B>.

The only way it could get more direct is by actually writing "Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo" on a wooden plank and nailing it to your forehead.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:43 pm

Kaboom wrote:Like I said in my first post, Goku going from "[Evil Boo] is too strong and will kill us for sure" to "yeah, we can take [Pure Boo]" barely one chapter later... that IS the supposedly elusive "Pure Boo is now weaker than Evil Boo" statement.

When <Character A> definitively states that <Character B> is too strong for them, but then shows themselves able to fight <Character C> evenly, then that means <Character C> is weaker than <Character B>.

The only way it could get more direct is by actually writing "Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo" on a wooden plank and nailing it to your forehead.
That makes sense. Though, what bugs me is that in the same sentence Goku says Evil Boo is too strong for them, he doesn’t seem to imply his strength is very different from Vegeta. People have been using Goku’s remarks as a basis even to gauge Gotenks’ strength and, for me, it doesn’t seem the story decided how strong Goku was until the very end. Anyway, I agree the sentence in question can imply Goku knows really well his own strength, so I concede on that.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by TobyS » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:21 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Like I said in my first post, Goku going from "[Evil Boo] is too strong and will kill us for sure" to "yeah, we can take [Pure Boo]" barely one chapter later... that IS the supposedly elusive "Pure Boo is now weaker than Evil Boo" statement.

When <Character A> definitively states that <Character B> is too strong for them, but then shows themselves able to fight <Character C> evenly, then that means <Character C> is weaker than <Character B>.

The only way it could get more direct is by actually writing "Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo" on a wooden plank and nailing it to your forehead.
That makes sense. Though, what bugs me is that in the same sentence Goku says Evil Boo is too strong for them, he doesn’t seem to imply his strength is very different from Vegeta. People have been using Goku’s remarks as a basis even to gauge Gotenks’ strength and, for me, it doesn’t seem the story decided how strong Goku was until the very end. Anyway, I agree the sentence in question can imply Goku knows really well his own strength, so I concede on that.
I always took this to mean Goku is refering to Goku and Vegeta collectivly, no reason to assume he's putting them on an equal par, just listing them as the people who are ready to fight. He is saying Buu is stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta, instead of just one of them.

Vegeta already knows about SS3, he calls Goku on having it before they use the potara, so he has no reason to be saying "SS3 > Evil Buu > SS2 Goku+SS2 Vegeta."
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:56 pm

TobyS wrote:I always took this to mean Goku is refering to Goku and Vegeta collectivly, no reason to assume he's putting them on an equal par, just listing them as the people who are ready to fight. He is saying Buu is stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta, instead of just one of them.

Vegeta already knows about SS3, he calls Goku on having it before they use the potara, so he has no reason to be saying "SS3 > Evil Buu > SS2 Goku+SS2 Vegeta."
Fair enough. Though, as I said in the earlier post, it could be that the story hadn’t decided at that point in which level SS3 Goku would fit or Pure Boo held back to a level Goku could fight without looking helpless. I’m more inclined to believe in the first option.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:05 am

Kaboom wrote:Like I said in my first post, Goku going from "[Evil Boo] is too strong and will kill us for sure" to "yeah, we can take [Pure Boo]" barely one chapter later... that IS the supposedly elusive "Pure Boo is now weaker than Evil Boo" statement.

When <Character A> definitively states that <Character B> is too strong for them, but then shows themselves able to fight <Character C> evenly, then that means <Character C> is weaker than <Character B>.

The only way it could get more direct is by actually writing "Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo" on a wooden plank and nailing it to your forehead.
You sure its too soon to close this? Nothing more can be stated that hasn't already been said.
We've got all the lines about Pure Evil Boo being objectively stronger but its still "No, Pure Boo can still be stronger because (subjective reasoning)!" for the sake of arguing.
Does this topic need to go on for 3 or more pages just so the same points can be reiterated in subtle ways to match the incessant tone?
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:49 am

Gag faces ≠ fear, even Seiyuu and Toei Animation understood that scene that's why Nozawa uses comedic tone as if he's not serious. And with Gohan-Boo, his main priority wasn't to kill Boo but to go inside him and free his sons but here in final battle its clear what he's going for and not he doesn't need to hold back ssj3 anymore which he was trying to do in entire arc. If you're taking Goku's statement in Boo at face value than you have to admit Goku = Vegeta since that's what he said on RoSaT. So you are telling me, Goku would not tell Vegeta about ki drop of a creature he has been keeping his eyes on? Again the funny thing is it's your vague interpretation because no one mentioned ki drop. Neither Saiyans nor gods literally no one did that, even though whenever Evil Boo ki dropped it increased they notified the people. Goku's reaction to Pure Boo is in reply to Vegeta, it's clear. Saiyans can act reckless, it's evident by things they did before and underestimating a threat is pretty normal.

No, that doesn't make sense. Evil Boo was chaotic as well like laughing for no reason, killing a random person or screaming for no reason and getting angry. Even Gotenks-Boo was trying to destroy the planet so i don't know how destroying planets makes Pure Boo dangerous. First of all, there's no reason Goku or anyone can't sense fluctuations in Boo considering Goku was able to sense the ki of Evil Boo from Kaioshin realm and with his Teleport Technique he can reach anywhere in seconds so there's no reason to fear and on top of that Goku said that they should train so that they can take him on one-on-one in worst case scenario and he never mentions anything like he's not including Gohan so assumptions are headcanon here. His worst case scenario is in reply to to Vegeta saying that another Pure Boo will emerge.

No, "Genki Dama" is not even a thing, it's a pun on "Denki Gama" which means electric rice cooker. "Genki" can be used interchangeably with "Ki". There is nothing such as "Genki" in us, we all have "Ki". "Genki deska" is used to ask for a health of someone. You are telling me the Rocks and plants have "Genki"? That doesn't even make sense. It's Ki which Goku collects in his sphere. Traditional Genki Dama only took a little bit of Ki but here Vegeta asked them to give all and its evident when we see a man fall on his knees after giving it and many left exhausted and not being able to stand for sometime. Even Kibitoshin wasn't able to teleport due to giving his Ki so Genki Dama always takes ki and that's why after giving the ki characters are exhausted for a while.
Gag faces aren't fearful faces. Gag faces are indications of joking around or lying, and there's no reason to assume Goku was lying at any point about it. Why would Goku need to tell Vegeta about a ki drop that he probably assumed Vegeta would have also sensed. The fact remains that Goku went from saying he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu (with no indication or suggestion that he was lying. As you yourself would say, any suggestion to the contrary is "headcanon"), and then felt confident that they could manage something against Pure Buu, even maintaining he could defeat him at full power up until the very end of his ability to hold the Super Saiyan 3 form.

The other Buus could be reasoned with to an extent. From Fat Buu onward, they all had a desire to fight strong opponents, and enjoyed doing so enough to wait around or seek them out specifically. With Pure Buu, that wasn't the case. Goku even commented on that, saying that Buu tried blowing up the planet without warning, and then Vegeta tried coaxing him into fighting instead, but to no effect. He jumped to destroy the planet immediately, and even with the two of them right there, it was a close call on Vegeta's part to have deflected the first one in time. So, Vegeta's fear of Buu reappearing could, again, be very much related to that. If he's willing to go, without warning, and blow up the planet immediately, then who's to say that he wouldn't try that again, and if they weren't immediately around, then that could mean the end of the planet and them. As for Goku's response, it's just as headcanon to assume that he's saying that the worst case scenario is just about Vegeta fearing Buu reappearing.

It doesn't matter what it's a pun of. In the Dragon Ball universe, it is something, and Toriyama established that, in the Dragon Ball universe, genki is it's own special thing and isn't just ki. It's one single element that makes up ki, so no matter whether or not it exists in the real world, in the Dragon Ball universe we have to accept it as being how Toriyama described it. As such, the Genki Dama draws on that single element, not the entirety of ki, and given that Kaiou specifically says that rocks and plants can donate to the Genki Dama, then somehow they have genki. Saying otherwise is contradicting what Toriyama established, so the Genki Dama draws on genki, and therefore Gohan's donation of genki wasn't enough to defeat Buu, not the entirety of his ki.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:31 am

Miracles wrote: What you just stated does not disprove the fact that Goku was said to be able to fight kid buu on a level playing field. Which he did.

That means stronger than Gohan as well, it's not like Gohan was forgotten by Vegeta since he saw everything from afterlife.
his doesn't disprove Goku's statements and action about not wanting to fight Evil Buu but wanting and showed that he could fight Kid Buu. Trying to discredit Goku isn't going to work for you when he was proven not guilty here.

Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta when his ssj3 is enough to beat fat boo. Taking one statement on face value and ignoring several evidences which don't support that statement doesn't mean anything.
Miracles wrote: Goku outright said Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. He wanted to fuse against Super Buu but wanted to fight Kid Buu one on one and DID just that. Super Buu > Kid Buu...
Goku outright says that if Vegeta wasn't able to match Fat boo then he can't as well since according to him, they are on par.
Yea, Goku SSJ3 = Vegeta SSJ2

Darkprince410 wrote:
Gag faces ≠ fear, even Seiyuu and Toei Animation understood that scene that's why Nozawa uses comedic tone as if he's not serious. And with Gohan-Boo, his main priority wasn't to kill Boo but to go inside him and free his sons but here in final battle its clear what he's going for and not he doesn't need to hold back ssj3 anymore which he was trying to do in entire arc. If you're taking Goku's statement in Boo at face value than you have to admit Goku = Vegeta since that's what he said on RoSaT. So you are telling me, Goku would not tell Vegeta about ki drop of a creature he has been keeping his eyes on? Again the funny thing is it's your vague interpretation because no one mentioned ki drop. Neither Saiyans nor gods literally no one did that, even though whenever Evil Boo ki dropped it increased they notified the people. Goku's reaction to Pure Boo is in reply to Vegeta, it's clear. Saiyans can act reckless, it's evident by things they did before and underestimating a threat is pretty normal.

No, that doesn't make sense. Evil Boo was chaotic as well like laughing for no reason, killing a random person or screaming for no reason and getting angry. Even Gotenks-Boo was trying to destroy the planet so i don't know how destroying planets makes Pure Boo dangerous. First of all, there's no reason Goku or anyone can't sense fluctuations in Boo considering Goku was able to sense the ki of Evil Boo from Kaioshin realm and with his Teleport Technique he can reach anywhere in seconds so there's no reason to fear and on top of that Goku said that they should train so that they can take him on one-on-one in worst case scenario and he never mentions anything like he's not including Gohan so assumptions are headcanon here. His worst case scenario is in reply to to Vegeta saying that another Pure Boo will emerge.

No, "Genki Dama" is not even a thing, it's a pun on "Denki Gama" which means electric rice cooker. "Genki" can be used interchangeably with "Ki". There is nothing such as "Genki" in us, we all have "Ki". "Genki deska" is used to ask for a health of someone. You are telling me the Rocks and plants have "Genki"? That doesn't even make sense. It's Ki which Goku collects in his sphere. Traditional Genki Dama only took a little bit of Ki but here Vegeta asked them to give all and its evident when we see a man fall on his knees after giving it and many left exhausted and not being able to stand for sometime. Even Kibitoshin wasn't able to teleport due to giving his Ki so Genki Dama always takes ki and that's why after giving the ki characters are exhausted for a while.
Gag faces aren't fearful faces. Gag faces are indications of joking around or lying, and there's no reason to assume Goku was lying at any point about it. Why would Goku need to tell Vegeta about a ki drop that he probably assumed Vegeta would have also sensed. The fact remains that Goku went from saying he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu (with no indication or suggestion that he was lying. As you yourself would say, any suggestion to the contrary is "headcanon"), and then felt confident that they could manage something against Pure Buu, even maintaining he could defeat him at full power up until the very end of his ability to hold the Super Saiyan 3 form.

The other Buus could be reasoned with to an extent. From Fat Buu onward, they all had a desire to fight strong opponents, and enjoyed doing so enough to wait around or seek them out specifically. With Pure Buu, that wasn't the case. Goku even commented on that, saying that Buu tried blowing up the planet without warning, and then Vegeta tried coaxing him into fighting instead, but to no effect. He jumped to destroy the planet immediately, and even with the two of them right there, it was a close call on Vegeta's part to have deflected the first one in time. So, Vegeta's fear of Buu reappearing could, again, be very much related to that. If he's willing to go, without warning, and blow up the planet immediately, then who's to say that he wouldn't try that again, and if they weren't immediately around, then that could mean the end of the planet and them. As for Goku's response, it's just as headcanon to assume that he's saying that the worst case scenario is just about Vegeta fearing Buu reappearing.

It doesn't matter what it's a pun of. In the Dragon Ball universe, it is something, and Toriyama established that, in the Dragon Ball universe, genki is it's own special thing and isn't just ki. It's one single element that makes up ki, so no matter whether or not it exists in the real world, in the Dragon Ball universe we have to accept it as being how Toriyama described it. As such, the Genki Dama draws on that single element, not the entirety of ki, and given that Kaiou specifically says that rocks and plants can donate to the Genki Dama, then somehow they have genki. Saying otherwise is contradicting what Toriyama established, so the Genki Dama draws on genki, and therefore Gohan's donation of genki wasn't enough to defeat Buu, not the entirety of his ki.
Why there's no reason? I have shown you evidence of why Goku was never interested in using ssj3 to fight someone in whole arc and either it was to stall for someone or quickly run away. He was always interested in using fusion over ssj3 and here it's same. Thinking he was trying to spare Vegeta's feelings by not using a form Vegeta was angry with him for not using in majin Vegeta battle makes sense. Even in Kaioshin realm, Vegeta is the one asking Goku to show him ssj3 and that's when Goku said "you sure". Even while fighting Pure Boo when Vegeta thought Goku's trying to spare his feelings, Goku's reply clearly shows that he has respect for Vegeta. I am not exactly saying lying but reluctance of using ssj3 since it's still work-in-progress for him and fusion is surer way to win. Again, he should have mentioned ki drop because that's what he was doing even in Evil Boo's body even though Vegeta can sense ki. It doesn't make sense for him to not mention the drop in Ki especially when it's source of his relief.
Goku never said he could defeat him at full power, he said if he wants to wipe him out he needs to charge ki for a minute only to find that it wasn't enough. It's the same thing as Makankosappo where one charges ki above the villain's number and then other person stalls him. If you seriously think Goku himself can pull an attack on the level of Universal Genki Dama then you're mistaken and either way Goku admits he needs to train to catch up which clearly means Goku admits his inferiority to Pure Boo. Even if you think he's confident of beating him at full power then it's no different from what Cell was trying to with Gohan and that doesn't guarantee anything.

Also, no, Evil Boo cannot be reasoned with that's why he never waits an hour for Piccolo and quickly wanted to get there. Pure Boo destroying planet isn't something special, Gotenks-Boo tried to do the same thing for lols. You are telling me that Goku's worst case scenario being that magically Gohan and Gotenks not being around is less headcanon then him talking about exactly what Vegeta was about Pure Boo appearing again?

No, Genki is Ki. That's why Goku can gather it from plants and animals because they have energy in general. The other two elements have of Ki are just mental thing and Genki is the only thing which is related to what traditionally the ki is. That's why Kibitoshin wasn't even able to teleport because he drained his ki and was exhausted from giving it. Same with other earthling. Vegeta said he's gonna push them to their limit and collect as much ki as he can, Gohan's picture is their so that means it had Gohan's energy and its clearly there for us to show that Gohan isn't enough otherwise they would not bother with Genki Dama and call him instantly. Your narrative makes no logical sense at all.

Kaboom wrote:Like I said in my first post, Goku going from "[Evil Boo] is too strong and will kill us for sure" to "yeah, we can take [Pure Boo]" barely one chapter later... that IS the supposedly elusive "Pure Boo is now weaker than Evil Boo" statement.

When <Character A> definitively states that <Character B> is too strong for them, but then shows themselves able to fight <Character C> evenly, then that means <Character C> is weaker than <Character B>.

The only way it could get more direct is by actually writing "Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo" on a wooden plank and nailing it to your forehead.
Then you have to also take Goku's "if Vegeta could not beat Boo, i can't since we were almost equal in strength"
Then you have to also take into account "I probably couldn't have beaten Boo".

Again, if Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo then, Tell me:

- Why didn't Goku mention any power drop whereas it's always the case in the entire manga ? Especially when it's supposed to be the source of his relief. Especially when he's keeping an eye on Ki fluctuations and instantly remarks about Evil Boo ki going smaller? Why doesn't he mention the Ki drop on Kaioshin realm then? Especially when his reason taking Pure Boo on alone is that factor?

- Why is Goku judging Boo's ball on its size, right after ?
- Why was Goku confident of Gohan being able to beat Piccolo-Boo ALONE. But thought Vegeta's plan is to bring Gohan and Gotenks so that they can help them in fighting Boo? I think this should be clear enough. You are basing things on one statement Goku made but ignore these interpretation of Goku's of who can defeat Boo. If Gohan was enough then Goku would say "you intend to bring Gohan to finish Boo for us". I feel Toriyama made it clear that Pure Boo was above everyone through many implications but i don't why everyone still sticks to one statement Goku made inside Boo considering at that time, Goku never told that the truth that he could have killed Fat Boo. We as an audience at that point are assuming Goku can't even beat fat boo and is too weak but on Kaioshin realm he's opening up to everyone that's why he starts with "to tell you the truth" .

Also it's extremely hypocritical to assume that when Elder Kaioshin said "This small Boo is the very first most difficult Boo", he never implied he's the strongest Boo but assume that when Goku and Vegeta thought they can manage something they meant ki drop even though there is literally no mention of this even though they use Ki term like usual, before and after that. Even though Boo's ki shooting up after taking out source of Kaioshin influence, the Fat boo clearly says something else about the statement Kibitoshin made on "lower the power through absorptions" and not bringing supposedly stronger Gohan to one shot boo or failing Genki Dama meaning end of world or Goku calling earthlings "stupid bastards" even though his supposedly stronger son is enough to kill Boo.

This is like unnecessarily making Boo arc climax look badly written when reading the Manga with correct translations shows that Pure Boo is strongest unfused villain ever.
Regarder wrote:I really think the "We did it" line already mentioned is the clincher and adding in loads of other arguments is just going off into the weeds and obscuring things with ambiguous maybes. There's no need to argue for anything else but for or against that line, because if "we did it" means anything at all it should correspond to what their actual goal was, which was lowering Boo's power. What does "we did it" mean, but "we successfully lowered Boo's power as we've been trying for ages". If anything, the fact that they comment on the Buff Boo (who is later outright stated to be a product of South Kaioshin absorption) and his higher ki clarifies what "it" is meant to be, as it's all part of the same scene. It's part of a double fake out where first their plan appears to fail because Boo is becoming stronger, then he turns again, and suddenly "we did it" (necessarily meaning his ki must have dropped) and then we find that's another fake out, because then Pure Boo decides to destroy the planet instead of fighting them, meaning so much for their plan.

The only way they can say "we did it" and Boo's ki remains the same as the Buff form or even higher is if they suddenly decided on that moment to stop feeling for his ki, even though they've been feeling it the entire time in line with their goal of weakening it. What else makes sense here? It really is the clincher.
South Kaioshin never powered up Boo, there's no implications like such. Kaioshin ki can't power up or help boo as Dabra explicitly said that they can't use Kaioshin's ki but others are option. That doesn't even make sense for Boo to access South Kaioshin absorbed ki when Fat Boo who's the influence of both Kaioshins is taken out and then it's mentioned that his power was lowered due to absorptions, something can't get more clearer than that. If you think that rise in Ki was due to South Kaioshin then he should have stayed in Buff form but no he kept on transforming and there was no mention of Ki decrease after that and Goku's "We did it" came right after Vegeta commenting on him turning into a shorty like a reply. You are just refusing to accept the things mentioned in manga and apply your own headcanons that Vegeta and Goku commented on his ki size but never mentioned it. Even though Goku does that, he commented on Freeza's size when he saw him first, characters do these things, Vegeta even after knowing how to sense ki remarked about Perfect Cell being smaller and not looking stronger, Goku and Vegeta aren't infallible characters and are also reckless Saiyans, Goku's face of regret for not chosing Potara and trying to finish Boo alone clearly talks about overconfidence. I mean he says it clearly that he tried to show off and look cool, which totally makes him laughing at Pure Boo earlier on meaningless. he even though can sense ki thought Freeza was bluffing with using half power, he fought Cell still was surprised when he saw Cell's power with Gohan. Ki can fluctuate, it can be supressed or increased. It's not a definitive thing. Goku going to fight Pure Boo alone is same as him going to fight Vegeta and Freeza alone knowing they are stronger. It's a trope of Toriyama to make him fight the strongest forms for desire to test his power. With Evil Boo there was the issue with saving kids first and not destroying earth but on Kaioshin realm he had nothing to lose and its all about one
-on-one testing his powers. Everything from Manga implies that Pure Boo > Evil Boo yet you only take 2-3 statements of Goku at face values while ignoring everything in that arc.
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Desassina
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Desassina » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:52 am

It's only an anime thing that the guides documented and was continued upon in DBS. Historically, people drew the opposite conclusion, and that was naturally by just reading. However, I must say that TOEI studios did their best to make Goku vs Pure Boo the strongest match until then, by crafting some good filler that could have been missed in the grand scheme of things. Let me give you an example: why didn't Goku use Super Saiyan 3 in Evil Boo's stomach? Vegeta already knew it, and that was when both of them got damaged trying to fight Gohan Boo (not a manga scene), lost their Super Saiyan forms before fusion and fought some more in his stomach (anime-only), which means that the energy wasn't there to pull off the highest transformation, and led to Dende healing them upon arriving at Kaioshin's planet (filler scene). Majin Boo arc's filler was quite good in adhering to the story layout, so as long as it was headed TOEI studios' direction, which then produced the movies where the strongest roles were reversed. There was a goal, regardless of what the author intended, and they adapted things their own way, because it was their adaptation, but not the original story. What has then been continued is the global awareness of the franchise, which cannot be separated into manga and anime only continuities, but addressed lightly by the medium that adheres to the one of the original story. Think about it this way: would Bryan Singer of FOX Movies' X-Men fame ignore anything introduced by the third and fourth movies that weren't directed by him? No, but he found a way to address them by directing Days of Future Past, and continuing it as his own franchise once more.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:18 am

Why there's no reason? I have shown you evidence of why Goku was never interested in using ssj3 to fight someone in whole arc and either it was to stall for someone or quickly run away. He was always interested in using fusion over ssj3 and here it's same. Thinking he was trying to spare Vegeta's feelings by not using a form Vegeta was angry with him for not using in majin Vegeta battle makes sense. Even in Kaioshin realm, Vegeta is the one asking Goku to show him ssj3 and that's when Goku said "you sure". Even while fighting Pure Boo when Vegeta thought Goku's trying to spare his feelings, Goku's reply clearly shows that he has respect for Vegeta. I am not exactly saying lying but reluctance of using ssj3 since it's still work-in-progress for him and fusion is surer way to win. Again, he should have mentioned ki drop because that's what he was doing even in Evil Boo's body even though Vegeta can sense ki. It doesn't make sense for him to not mention the drop in Ki especially when it's source of his relief.
Goku never said he could defeat him at full power, he said if he wants to wipe him out he needs to charge ki for a minute only to find that it wasn't enough. It's the same thing as Makankosappo where one charges ki above the villain's number and then other person stalls him. If you seriously think Goku himself can pull an attack on the level of Universal Genki Dama then you're mistaken and either way Goku admits he needs to train to catch up which clearly means Goku admits his inferiority to Pure Boo. Even if you think he's confident of beating him at full power then it's no different from what Cell was trying to with Gohan and that doesn't guarantee anything.

Also, no, Evil Boo cannot be reasoned with that's why he never waits an hour for Piccolo and quickly wanted to get there. Pure Boo destroying planet isn't something special, Gotenks-Boo tried to do the same thing for lols. You are telling me that Goku's worst case scenario being that magically Gohan and Gotenks not being around is less headcanon then him talking about exactly what Vegeta was about Pure Boo appearing again?

No, Genki is Ki. That's why Goku can gather it from plants and animals because they have energy in general. The other two elements have of Ki are just mental thing and Genki is the only thing which is related to what traditionally the ki is. That's why Kibitoshin wasn't even able to teleport because he drained his ki and was exhausted from giving it. Same with other earthling. Vegeta said he's gonna push them to their limit and collect as much ki as he can, Gohan's picture is their so that means it had Gohan's energy and its clearly there for us to show that Gohan isn't enough otherwise they would not bother with Genki Dama and call him instantly. Your narrative makes no logical sense at all.
And it's clear in those situations why Goku didn't want to use Super Saiyan 3. He was dead at the time and he knew that using it would burn through his time quickly, and in turn he wanted to save it for emergencies. He used it against Fat Buu because he had no alternative as far as stalling him, but even then he didn't want to actually kill him. As for the events on Kaioushin's planet, Goku still at least went Super Saiyan 3 against Buu, whereas he, by his own admission, was too scared to even try and fight Evil Buu. He knows Vegeta doesn't want to fuse with him, but remained adamant till the very end that it was the only way they had to defeat Evil Buu, yet, while admitting that the Potaras would make things easier, he still felt he could defeat Pure Buu on his own. Again, Goku's comment can readily imply that, because their entire reasoning for removing individuals inside Buu was to weaken him, and Goku comments, inside, that they're "almost there". Then, once they leave and Pure Buu fully forms, he excitedly comments "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something" That line is a direct correlation to what he said inside about being almost there with Evil Buu, but now they had succeeded, and thus indicating a power drop.

It doesn't change that Goku still believed he could have done it on his own, and yes, Goku did say he thought he could defeat him at full power, as the collecting ki was, by his own admission, to get him back to "full power".
Goku: “Just a little more…….!! Just a little bit more. Tough it out for me, Vegeta….!!”
Vegeta: “St…still not yet?...Hurry up…..!! I’ll be ki…..killed………..!!”
Goku: “Sh-shit…! It-it’s already over 1 minute, but…N-not yet! I still can’t wipe out Boo with this much…! [ ] …Da...Damn it……..!! …I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? He…he’ll be killed…..!!!”
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
He still believed he could take out Buu under his own power, but was too scared to even try to use it against Evil Buu, claiming that Buu would kill them.

Evil Buu still could be reasoned with more than Pure Buu could. Yes, he had a short temper and was hard to reason with, but he could still be reasoned with to an extent. Piccolo was able to at least make him consider waiting for an hour (even if he didn't succeed in getting him to wait the full time) as well as convince him to "kill all humans" first in hopes of stalling him out. All the other Buus could be reasoned with to some degree, while Pure Buu wasn't. This is established immediately, and fits Vegeta's fears of what a revived Buu might do perfectly well.

No, genki is not ki. Toriyama established this to be the case, so no matter what you may believe, genki is not just ki, but a single element of it. There are are more than three elements to ki as well, as he indicated that the three he mentioned were just examples and not the full list of it. Gohan gave the full extent of the genki he could donate, which was not enough to defeat Pure Buu, that's all that can be determined by the statements made and the nature of what the Genki Dama is. As for why they didn't bother just bringing Gohan up, again, that's been established. Vegeta wanted the people of the Earth to take care of their own problems. Any other reason is pure speculation with no evidence backing it up.

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