ruler9871 wrote:There is no way Kid Buu could be the strongest. That just makes zero sense.
1. SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu fought on an even level. Goku even stated he could wipe him out with his full power. He NEVER implies this with any version of Super Buu.
2. The only time Buu explicitly gets weaker from absorption is when he absorded the Grand Supreme Kai. Every other time he got stronger. Shin said that Buu got stronger after absorbing the South Supreme Kai, automatically disqualifing Kid Buu from being the strongest Buu.
3. SSJ1 Gotenks (even before going into the Rosat) is shown to be equal or stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Since he could easily beat Fat Buu in just SSJ1 while Goku could only do this in SSJ3. Gotenks would later further surpass Goku after going into the Rosat, then even more after unlocking SSJ3 himself and fighting Base Super Buu on an even level.
So the idea that Kid Buu is stronger than any other version of Buu (except the Fat one) is stupid.
What are you talking about? Goku never implied he's fighting on par, on the contrary he commented on him coming back from everything Goku does and how Pure Boo was lollygagging the entire time. What more implications you want?
Goku told he needs to collect Ki for 1 minute to wipe him out similar to Makankosappo where one collects ki which is enough to kill a person and the other distracts the villain. How does that make Goku or Piccolo stronger than the villain? You are clearly missing the point of Goku with Evil Boo, please revisit that portion again. He was trying to make the situation convenient enough to leave Vegeta with no option but fusion dance. Toriyama literally used gag faces in those parts. But either way we found out that Goku would still be in similar pinch as Pure Boo because here he admits that he was trying to act cool and potara was the better option. So it totally makes your point moot since he admitted he tried to show off. Even in end part, Goku admits that they all need to train enough to fight him incase he comes out again which not only proves that he admitted his inferiority to him but also Gohan isn't strong enough otherwise he won't say that and similar to Cell arc ending say "we always have Gohan to take care" but unlike Cell arc there is no implications that Gohan is anywhere near Pure Boo let alone strongest.
2) seriously? Are you using made up statements to further your arguments? I have checked this part in like 3-4 languages and no where does it mention anything like that, here is Herms translation :
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…
”Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
3) no he's not shown to be equal to Goku when Goku by his own admittance was never using full power with Fat Boo to begin with as Piccolo instantly noticed. Also, Goku told he could have confidently obliterated Fat Boo in ssj3 after lying that he don't know, so why are you taking his statement with Evil Boo killing them at face value if he has shown that he's always uncomfortable or has to lie with ssj3 as a form? Did Goku say Gotenks surpassed him in ssj3? No, even in anime version when Kaioshin asked who was stronger, Goku never replied.
Jack Bz wrote:I thought the whole point of Pure Boo's conception was Toriyama coming up with a reason for Goku and Vegeta to be able to even put up a fight against Boo, as there was no way to write Goku and Vegeta fighting Super Boo that wasn't a one-sided onslaught.
It's undeniable that when Boo turns into the buff version when fat boo is removed, Goku and Vegeta are worried, but then that turns to relief once Pure Boo is formed. Sure, they underestimated him in the end, but not drastically. There's absolutely a sense that the playing field has been levelled.
Goku was trying to persuade Vegeta to fuse because fusion is much better option than using ssj3 in living realm where he has shown reluctance to use it on multiple occasions. Remember when Goku goes to Heavenly Realm and told everyone that he was planning to fuse with either Gohan or Vegeta to take down Boo, why would he say that when he has ssj3? Remember when he thought Gotenks can beat Boo even though he has ssj3? Why would he lie to Piccolo that he can't beat Boo when he has ssj3? It has all got to do with that form. Goku in that entire arc was trying to avoid it until he had no option left.
Then why would Vegeta the ssj2 feel he can take Boo on? If not underestimating him? Why would toriyama magically not make any of character be it Vegeta, Goku, dende, Kibitoshin or Old Kaioshin talk about ki going down? When everytime this happens atleast one character would talk about ki. He mentioned the term ki in the Manga before and after this so if he was weakened they should say it considering its Dragon Ball, using the term Ki is not difficult thing.
Also, notice how Vegeta hardly shows any fear of Evil Boo when talking about blasting out but Vegeta first talks about how they are weaker then scold him of destroying potara (gag face) then (with gag face) tell how's there's one other way but Vegeta already figured it out and then Goku shows another gag impression, which means he was trying to make it convenient enough for Vegeta to ask Goku for fusion dance. Even when Evil Boo tried to fight him, Goku doesn't even go ssj3, why? If he's so scared as you say why won't he use it?
Also when Vegeta is taking hits from Pure Boo, we already see how much the playing field has been leveled
same with Goku even before experiencing the power drain with one minute charging of Ki admitting he was showing off too much and he should have used Potara. That's Toriyama's way of making an OP plot device like Potara dissappear since they were driven in a corner now.
People do not understand the strength of each Buu cause they are not reading the statements IN context. For example...
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
I see the OP missed the fact that Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu one-on-one cause of the fact that he ain't merged anymore. Do you know what that means? That not only includes Gotenks Buu and Mystic Buu but the Evil Buu who also absorbed fat Buu. More proof of that from this statement here...
Then why does Goku say he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets? Why is he not talking about decrease in ki? Again this is DBZ, atleast one character always mentions decrease in ki. Okay answer this, when Goku after he gets up from battle with Majin Vegeta gets to Room of Spirit and Time, why did he told them he was planning to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to take Boo Down when he has ssj3? Because it's same thing here, he has already shown reluctance towards using ssj3 and is more than happy to use fusion everytime, it's same here. And when he's trying to tell they are no match for Evil Boo he's trying to persuade him to fuse, i am sorry but no one would make gag faces when so scared like Goku made in that section whereas with Pure Boo fight after he knew he was driven into a corner he hardly made a gag face and this time was dead serious.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Goku stated Buu's power has dropped AFTER taking away Gohan, Gotenks, etc from inside of Buu. Guess which Buu he was referring to? The one that was shown and that was Evil Buu...The one who fought Gotenks. DESPITE bringing him back to this form, Goku still said he and Vegeta would be killed. This is the reason why Mystic Gohan was brought in to handle this Buu earlier.
Again, it's because of reluctance to use ssj3 and option of fusion, Goku already implied to Kuririn and Piccolo that he was planning to use fusion dance even though he has ssj3. It's same thing here. Explain why Goku doesn't go ssj3 to fight Evil Boo inside if he's that worried?
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu's absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.
The rest of your quotes have no bearing on the comparison of Kidd Buu's power to other Buu's....Therefore the hierarchy of each Buu is clear... Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu [Evil Buu] > Kid Buu > Fat Buu.
So you will ignore the "Lower his Power" line, how i see is Kaioshin telling about Pure Boo getting his old power which was restricted by absorptions back and there's no reason for him to go from dancing after seeing Evil Boo to getting scared after seeing Pure Boo if he weakened. There's no reason for him to mention about drop in power due to absorptions for no reason other than powerscaling Pure Boo above Evil Boo.
Yea Vegeta will want to take a risky solution over easy victory and will force himself to not only beg to humans to give energy but take a solid beating from villain to stall Goku for an attack which never worked and the Whole universe will pin their hopes on Genki Dama but not want Gohan to one shot Boo? Piccolo and Kaio have shown the habit of pointing out Goku if he does anything wrong but here he will not do anything? Piccolo who saw Gohan in action will not say anything and base his hopes on an attack which always failed, everyone is happy with risky solution but not asking for Gohan? Vegeta told he's taking as much ki as possible that's why everyone who give it start panting, you are telling me Gohan would hold back from giving his Ki?
Nothing in your powerscaling equations make sense since you are basing off one statement Goku made inside Evil Boo and ignoring Kaioshin implying power thing.
Why do many people believe that Evil Boo was stronger than Pure Boo?
Because Goku spent Super Buu's entire existence avoiding him and admitting outright that he couldn't win against that form of Buu.
Somehow, this fact is simply unacceptable for various head canons. The argument is that Pure Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo but that he also must arbitrarily be enough of a threat that fusion is required to defeat him. Meanwhile, Goku crushes the Potara when contemplating fighting Pure Boo with it; Goku would have to be utterly insane to do something like that even if you account for Goku maybe
having powered up in the interim. The fusion dance was also nixed as an option against the alleged "strongest Boo" in favor of a full power blast so the conclusion should be obvious.
Okay if we are taking that one statement on face value then Goku could not have beaten Boo since he mentioned that 3 times to Piccolo, not once but 3 times. But what happened on Kaioshin realm? He told he won't hold back and told the truth. Goku was being insane, that was the point, haven't you noticed old Kaioshin point that out and what does Goku say after sparing a little with boo? Was it "good thing i crushed the potara since i can handle him because his ki from back then is weak" or "I should have used potara, i tried to act cool and show off too much, I thought thing would go better than this"
Also, Goku admitted his inferiority in end part of the arc where he told that everyone needs to train incase another monster emerges and they will be able to take him one on one. It's right there, see you all statements are from goku not wanting to fight or wanting to fight. Whereas my statements are from Manga panels where they first talk about Evil Boo ki rising then in next pages Kaioshin talks about Boo lowering his power due to absorptions and anyone looking at this objectively will see that he meant that after detaching Fat Boo who is the influence of 2 Kaioshins, the ki which goes up is Pure Boo's, why? Because there is no South Kaioshin anymore and we sure know for a fact that he lowered his power by absorbing gods, so what does this imply? This implies that the old power which was blocked due to God influence was now unrestricted. We sure know for a fact that Dabra implied that Kaioshin ki won't help them in powering up Boo's revival otherwise why would he count them out personally when there plan was to collect energy from normal people in Tenkaichi Budokai and most are obviously weaker than Kaioshin.
I have multiple proofs from Manga. You stick to one statement Goku made. We sure know that Goku likes to test his power with final strongest threats like Vegeta, Freeza and Perfect Cell. Was Goku stronger than Vegeta who came back after not only taking Goku's Kaio Ken times 3,Kamehameha but even Genki Dama ? Was Goku stronger than Freeza in Base Form? Was Goku stronger than Perfect Cell? Toriyama made Goku fight Pure Boo because that's what Goku always does with final threats. Notice how Goku is not talking about drop in Pure Boo's Power but either way i have given my proof. Even Toriyama till now Remembers that Pure Boo was strongest unfused Boo atleast, he talks about Goku wanting to face opponents one on one and he even says "if you remember that line Goku told to Majin Boo" which means you can't apply "Toriyama forgot" here since he still remembered final fight he wrote.