Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

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Miracles
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:24 pm

People do not understand the strength of each Buu cause they are not reading the statements IN context. For example...
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
I see the OP missed the fact that Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu one-on-one cause of the fact that he ain't merged anymore. Do you know what that means? That not only includes Gotenks Buu and Mystic Buu but the Evil Buu who also absorbed fat Buu. More proof of that from this statement here...
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Goku stated Buu's power has dropped AFTER taking away Gohan, Gotenks, etc from inside of Buu. Guess which Buu he was referring to? The one that was shown and that was Evil Buu...The one who fought Gotenks. DESPITE bringing him back to this form, Goku still said he and Vegeta would be killed. This is the reason why Mystic Gohan was brought in to handle this Buu earlier.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu's absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.

The rest of your quotes have no bearing on the comparison of Kidd Buu's power to other Buu's....Therefore the hierarchy of each Buu is clear... Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu [Evil Buu] > Kid Buu > Fat Buu.
Last edited by Miracles on Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:26 pm

Miracles wrote:People do not understand the strength of each Buu cause they are not reading the statements IN context. For example...
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
I see the OP missed the fact that Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu one-on-one cause of the fact that he ain't merged anymore. Do you know what that means? That not only includes Gotenks Buu and Mystic Buu but the Evil Buu who also absorbed fat Buu. More proof of that from this statement here...
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Goku stated Buu's power has dropped AFTER taking away Gohan, Gotenks etc from inside of Buu. Guess which Buu he was referring to? The one that was shown and that was Evil Buu...The one who fought Gotenks. DESPITE bringing him back to this form Goku still said he and Vegeta would be killed. This is the reason why Mystic Gohan was brought in to handle this Buu.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.

The rest of your quotes have no bearing on the comparison of Kidd Buu's power to other Buu's....Therefore the hierarchy of each Buu is clear... Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu [Evil Buu] > Kid Buu > Fat Buu.


I couldn't have said it better my self.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Jack Bz » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:18 pm

I thought the whole point of Pure Boo's conception was Toriyama coming up with a reason for Goku and Vegeta to be able to even put up a fight against Boo, as there was no way to write Goku and Vegeta fighting Super Boo that wasn't a one-sided onslaught.

It's undeniable that when Boo turns into the buff version when fat boo is removed, Goku and Vegeta are worried, but then that turns to relief once Pure Boo is formed. Sure, they underestimated him in the end, but not drastically. There's absolutely a sense that the playing field has been levelled.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by kuartus4 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:34 pm

Pantalones wrote: And then as soon as Kid Buu turns up he's all "yeah, we did it, we can handle him now!"... and it's not just a statement that can be brushed off as Goku underestimating Kid Buu, it's shown, because shortly after that statement Goku proceeds to fight him evenly using SSj3, only failing to defeat him because he underestimated just how much the SSj3 form drained his energy when used in a living body.
They clearly did underestimate kid buu. Initially even Vegeta also thought he could take kid buu. Even expressing disappointment that Goku won the chance to fight him first. Yet after watching him fight:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.6
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”

Goku also expressed a similar sentiment .

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Note that this is before he becomes cognizant of the form's power drain.

Also something interesting. Vegeta expresses that Goku is stronger than he had thought in the quote above. Recall that ssj3 Goku's power could instantly be felt from earth all the way to the kaioshin realm. And recall that Goku used the form when Gotenks Buu attacked him. At this point in time Vegeta had his body back in the afterlife and should have felt ssj3 Goku's power already. Putting this together and it seems like Ssj3 Goku vs Kid Buu is stronger than before. It seems completely illogical but maybe he was holding back his power. Or perhaps he just got a random hax from Toriyama for the final fight.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:54 am

ruler9871 wrote:There is no way Kid Buu could be the strongest. That just makes zero sense.

1. SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu fought on an even level. Goku even stated he could wipe him out with his full power. He NEVER implies this with any version of Super Buu.

2. The only time Buu explicitly gets weaker from absorption is when he absorded the Grand Supreme Kai. Every other time he got stronger. Shin said that Buu got stronger after absorbing the South Supreme Kai, automatically disqualifing Kid Buu from being the strongest Buu.

3. SSJ1 Gotenks (even before going into the Rosat) is shown to be equal or stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Since he could easily beat Fat Buu in just SSJ1 while Goku could only do this in SSJ3. Gotenks would later further surpass Goku after going into the Rosat, then even more after unlocking SSJ3 himself and fighting Base Super Buu on an even level.

So the idea that Kid Buu is stronger than any other version of Buu (except the Fat one) is stupid.
What are you talking about? Goku never implied he's fighting on par, on the contrary he commented on him coming back from everything Goku does and how Pure Boo was lollygagging the entire time. What more implications you want?
Goku told he needs to collect Ki for 1 minute to wipe him out similar to Makankosappo where one collects ki which is enough to kill a person and the other distracts the villain. How does that make Goku or Piccolo stronger than the villain? You are clearly missing the point of Goku with Evil Boo, please revisit that portion again. He was trying to make the situation convenient enough to leave Vegeta with no option but fusion dance. Toriyama literally used gag faces in those parts. But either way we found out that Goku would still be in similar pinch as Pure Boo because here he admits that he was trying to act cool and potara was the better option. So it totally makes your point moot since he admitted he tried to show off. Even in end part, Goku admits that they all need to train enough to fight him incase he comes out again which not only proves that he admitted his inferiority to him but also Gohan isn't strong enough otherwise he won't say that and similar to Cell arc ending say "we always have Gohan to take care" but unlike Cell arc there is no implications that Gohan is anywhere near Pure Boo let alone strongest.
2) seriously? Are you using made up statements to further your arguments? I have checked this part in like 3-4 languages and no where does it mention anything like that, here is Herms translation :

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…
”Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


3) no he's not shown to be equal to Goku when Goku by his own admittance was never using full power with Fat Boo to begin with as Piccolo instantly noticed. Also, Goku told he could have confidently obliterated Fat Boo in ssj3 after lying that he don't know, so why are you taking his statement with Evil Boo killing them at face value if he has shown that he's always uncomfortable or has to lie with ssj3 as a form? Did Goku say Gotenks surpassed him in ssj3? No, even in anime version when Kaioshin asked who was stronger, Goku never replied.
Jack Bz wrote:I thought the whole point of Pure Boo's conception was Toriyama coming up with a reason for Goku and Vegeta to be able to even put up a fight against Boo, as there was no way to write Goku and Vegeta fighting Super Boo that wasn't a one-sided onslaught.

It's undeniable that when Boo turns into the buff version when fat boo is removed, Goku and Vegeta are worried, but then that turns to relief once Pure Boo is formed. Sure, they underestimated him in the end, but not drastically. There's absolutely a sense that the playing field has been levelled.


Goku was trying to persuade Vegeta to fuse because fusion is much better option than using ssj3 in living realm where he has shown reluctance to use it on multiple occasions. Remember when Goku goes to Heavenly Realm and told everyone that he was planning to fuse with either Gohan or Vegeta to take down Boo, why would he say that when he has ssj3? Remember when he thought Gotenks can beat Boo even though he has ssj3? Why would he lie to Piccolo that he can't beat Boo when he has ssj3? It has all got to do with that form. Goku in that entire arc was trying to avoid it until he had no option left.

Then why would Vegeta the ssj2 feel he can take Boo on? If not underestimating him? Why would toriyama magically not make any of character be it Vegeta, Goku, dende, Kibitoshin or Old Kaioshin talk about ki going down? When everytime this happens atleast one character would talk about ki. He mentioned the term ki in the Manga before and after this so if he was weakened they should say it considering its Dragon Ball, using the term Ki is not difficult thing.
Also, notice how Vegeta hardly shows any fear of Evil Boo when talking about blasting out but Vegeta first talks about how they are weaker then scold him of destroying potara (gag face) then (with gag face) tell how's there's one other way but Vegeta already figured it out and then Goku shows another gag impression, which means he was trying to make it convenient enough for Vegeta to ask Goku for fusion dance. Even when Evil Boo tried to fight him, Goku doesn't even go ssj3, why? If he's so scared as you say why won't he use it?
Also when Vegeta is taking hits from Pure Boo, we already see how much the playing field has been leveled :D same with Goku even before experiencing the power drain with one minute charging of Ki admitting he was showing off too much and he should have used Potara. That's Toriyama's way of making an OP plot device like Potara dissappear since they were driven in a corner now.
Miracles wrote:People do not understand the strength of each Buu cause they are not reading the statements IN context. For example...
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”


I see the OP missed the fact that Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu one-on-one cause of the fact that he ain't merged anymore. Do you know what that means? That not only includes Gotenks Buu and Mystic Buu but the Evil Buu who also absorbed fat Buu. More proof of that from this statement here...

Then why does Goku say he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets? Why is he not talking about decrease in ki? Again this is DBZ, atleast one character always mentions decrease in ki. Okay answer this, when Goku after he gets up from battle with Majin Vegeta gets to Room of Spirit and Time, why did he told them he was planning to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to take Boo Down when he has ssj3? Because it's same thing here, he has already shown reluctance towards using ssj3 and is more than happy to use fusion everytime, it's same here. And when he's trying to tell they are no match for Evil Boo he's trying to persuade him to fuse, i am sorry but no one would make gag faces when so scared like Goku made in that section whereas with Pure Boo fight after he knew he was driven into a corner he hardly made a gag face and this time was dead serious.
Miracles wrote:
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku stated Buu's power has dropped AFTER taking away Gohan, Gotenks, etc from inside of Buu. Guess which Buu he was referring to? The one that was shown and that was Evil Buu...The one who fought Gotenks. DESPITE bringing him back to this form, Goku still said he and Vegeta would be killed. This is the reason why Mystic Gohan was brought in to handle this Buu earlier.

Again, it's because of reluctance to use ssj3 and option of fusion, Goku already implied to Kuririn and Piccolo that he was planning to use fusion dance even though he has ssj3. It's same thing here. Explain why Goku doesn't go ssj3 to fight Evil Boo inside if he's that worried?
Miracles wrote:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu's absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.

The rest of your quotes have no bearing on the comparison of Kidd Buu's power to other Buu's....Therefore the hierarchy of each Buu is clear... Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu [Evil Buu] > Kid Buu > Fat Buu.

So you will ignore the "Lower his Power" line, how i see is Kaioshin telling about Pure Boo getting his old power which was restricted by absorptions back and there's no reason for him to go from dancing after seeing Evil Boo to getting scared after seeing Pure Boo if he weakened. There's no reason for him to mention about drop in power due to absorptions for no reason other than powerscaling Pure Boo above Evil Boo.

Yea Vegeta will want to take a risky solution over easy victory and will force himself to not only beg to humans to give energy but take a solid beating from villain to stall Goku for an attack which never worked and the Whole universe will pin their hopes on Genki Dama but not want Gohan to one shot Boo? Piccolo and Kaio have shown the habit of pointing out Goku if he does anything wrong but here he will not do anything? Piccolo who saw Gohan in action will not say anything and base his hopes on an attack which always failed, everyone is happy with risky solution but not asking for Gohan? Vegeta told he's taking as much ki as possible that's why everyone who give it start panting, you are telling me Gohan would hold back from giving his Ki?

Nothing in your powerscaling equations make sense since you are basing off one statement Goku made inside Evil Boo and ignoring Kaioshin implying power thing.

theherodjl wrote:
Pantalones wrote:
Why do many people believe that Evil Boo was stronger than Pure Boo?


Because Goku spent Super Buu's entire existence avoiding him and admitting outright that he couldn't win against that form of Buu.


Somehow, this fact is simply unacceptable for various head canons. The argument is that Pure Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo but that he also must arbitrarily be enough of a threat that fusion is required to defeat him. Meanwhile, Goku crushes the Potara when contemplating fighting Pure Boo with it; Goku would have to be utterly insane to do something like that even if you account for Goku maybe having powered up in the interim. The fusion dance was also nixed as an option against the alleged "strongest Boo" in favor of a full power blast so the conclusion should be obvious.

Okay if we are taking that one statement on face value then Goku could not have beaten Boo since he mentioned that 3 times to Piccolo, not once but 3 times. But what happened on Kaioshin realm? He told he won't hold back and told the truth. Goku was being insane, that was the point, haven't you noticed old Kaioshin point that out and what does Goku say after sparing a little with boo? Was it "good thing i crushed the potara since i can handle him because his ki from back then is weak" or "I should have used potara, i tried to act cool and show off too much, I thought thing would go better than this"

Also, Goku admitted his inferiority in end part of the arc where he told that everyone needs to train incase another monster emerges and they will be able to take him one on one. It's right there, see you all statements are from goku not wanting to fight or wanting to fight. Whereas my statements are from Manga panels where they first talk about Evil Boo ki rising then in next pages Kaioshin talks about Boo lowering his power due to absorptions and anyone looking at this objectively will see that he meant that after detaching Fat Boo who is the influence of 2 Kaioshins, the ki which goes up is Pure Boo's, why? Because there is no South Kaioshin anymore and we sure know for a fact that he lowered his power by absorbing gods, so what does this imply? This implies that the old power which was blocked due to God influence was now unrestricted. We sure know for a fact that Dabra implied that Kaioshin ki won't help them in powering up Boo's revival otherwise why would he count them out personally when there plan was to collect energy from normal people in Tenkaichi Budokai and most are obviously weaker than Kaioshin.

I have multiple proofs from Manga. You stick to one statement Goku made. We sure know that Goku likes to test his power with final strongest threats like Vegeta, Freeza and Perfect Cell. Was Goku stronger than Vegeta who came back after not only taking Goku's Kaio Ken times 3,Kamehameha but even Genki Dama ? Was Goku stronger than Freeza in Base Form? Was Goku stronger than Perfect Cell? Toriyama made Goku fight Pure Boo because that's what Goku always does with final threats. Notice how Goku is not talking about drop in Pure Boo's Power but either way i have given my proof. Even Toriyama till now Remembers that Pure Boo was strongest unfused Boo atleast, he talks about Goku wanting to face opponents one on one and he even says "if you remember that line Goku told to Majin Boo" which means you can't apply "Toriyama forgot" here since he still remembered final fight he wrote.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:13 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote:People do not understand the strength of each Buu cause they are not reading the statements IN context. For example...
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
I see the OP missed the fact that Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu one-on-one cause of the fact that he ain't merged anymore. Do you know what that means? That not only includes Gotenks Buu and Mystic Buu but the Evil Buu who also absorbed fat Buu. More proof of that from this statement here...

Then why does Goku say he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets? Why is he not talking about decrease in ki? Again this is DBZ, atleast one character always mentions decrease in ki. Okay answer this, when Goku after he gets up from battle with Majin Vegeta gets to Room of Spirit and Time, why did he told them he was planning to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to take Boo Down when he has ssj3? Because it's same thing here, he has already shown reluctance towards using ssj3 and is more than happy to use fusion everytime, it's same here. And when he's trying to tell they are no match for Evil Boo he's trying to persuade him to fuse, i am sorry but no one would make gag faces when so scared like Goku made in that section whereas with Pure Boo fight after he knew he was driven into a corner he hardly made a gag face and this time was dead serious.
Goku stated they "will manage something" AFTER telling Kaioshin they will fight Kid Buu head up. That means they will manage physically beating Buu and they did. But Goku outright stated Evil Buu will straight up kill them. Again you are taking things out of context.
Miracles wrote:
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku stated Buu's power has dropped AFTER taking away Gohan, Gotenks, etc from inside of Buu. Guess which Buu he was referring to? The one that was shown and that was Evil Buu...The one who fought Gotenks. DESPITE bringing him back to this form, Goku still said he and Vegeta would be killed. This is the reason why Mystic Gohan was brought in to handle this Buu earlier.

Again, it's because of reluctance to use ssj3 and option of fusion, Goku already implied to Kuririn and Piccolo that he was planning to use fusion dance even though he has ssj3. It's same thing here. Explain why Goku doesn't go ssj3 to fight Evil Boo inside if he's that worried?
Again, that's cause Goku already stated that Evil Buu would KILL him and Vegeta both. That includes SSJ3. It isn't the same when he chose to defeat Fat Buu with fusion. That's cause he was already dead and wanted the next generation to defeat Buu. Plus, Unlike against Evil Buu, Goku stated he could probably beat Fat Buu with SSJ3 but outright states Evil Buu will kill him and Vegeta both. How you can conclude these scenarios are the same shows again another out of context line by you.
Miracles wrote:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu's absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.

The rest of your quotes have no bearing on the comparison of Kidd Buu's power to other Buu's....Therefore the hierarchy of each Buu is clear... Mystic Buu > Gotenks Buu > Super Buu [Evil Buu] > Kid Buu > Fat Buu.
So you will ignore the "Lower his Power" line, how i see is Kaioshin telling about Pure Boo getting his old power which was restricted by absorptions back and there's no reason for him to go from dancing after seeing Evil Boo to getting scared after seeing Pure Boo if he weakened. There's no reason for him to mention about drop in power due to absorptions for no reason other than powerscaling Pure Boo above Evil Boo.

Yea Vegeta will want to take a risky solution over easy victory and will force himself to not only beg to humans to give energy but take a solid beating from villain to stall Goku for an attack which never worked and the Whole universe will pin their hopes on Genki Dama but not want Gohan to one shot Boo? Piccolo and Kaio have shown the habit of pointing out Goku if he does anything wrong but here he will not do anything? Piccolo who saw Gohan in action will not say anything and base his hopes on an attack which always failed, everyone is happy with risky solution but not asking for Gohan? Vegeta told he's taking as much ki as possible that's why everyone who give it start panting, you are telling me Gohan would hold back from giving his Ki?

Nothing in your powerscaling equations make sense since you are basing off one statement Goku made inside Evil Boo and ignoring Kaioshin implying power thing.

You are still taking things out of context. The Kaioshin power statement was addressed. Kaioshin was talking about Buu absorbing the TWO Kaioshin in the past when Babdidi's dad was controlling him. That absorption line was related to the flashback ONLY. Not when Buu absorbed Gohan and Gotenks. Kid Buu's natural state is stronger than the absorbed South Kaio [Buff Buu] and Dai Kai [Fat Buu]. Which in turn caused his heart to change and not be as evil. That's what Kaioshin stated.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:49 am

Miracles wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote:People do not understand the strength of each Buu cause they are not reading the statements IN context. For example...



I see the OP missed the fact that Goku wanted to fight Kid Buu one-on-one cause of the fact that he ain't merged anymore. Do you know what that means? That not only includes Gotenks Buu and Mystic Buu but the Evil Buu who also absorbed fat Buu. More proof of that from this statement here...

Then why does Goku say he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets? Why is he not talking about decrease in ki? Again this is DBZ, atleast one character always mentions decrease in ki. Okay answer this, when Goku after he gets up from battle with Majin Vegeta gets to Room of Spirit and Time, why did he told them he was planning to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to take Boo Down when he has ssj3? Because it's same thing here, he has already shown reluctance towards using ssj3 and is more than happy to use fusion everytime, it's same here. And when he's trying to tell they are no match for Evil Boo he's trying to persuade him to fuse, i am sorry but no one would make gag faces when so scared like Goku made in that section whereas with Pure Boo fight after he knew he was driven into a corner he hardly made a gag face and this time was dead serious.
Goku stated they "will manage something" AFTER telling Kaioshin they will fight Kid Buu head up. That means they will manage physically beating Buu and they did. But Goku outright stated Evil Buu will straight up kill them. Again you are taking things out of context.

Yet Goku never states the ki dropping, why? After fighting Boo on the contrary he states that Pure Boo was having fun and he comes back no matter what he does and regrets not taking potara because he was showing off. So its same thing here, if he went to fight with Evil Boo it would turn out the same. Also what? No they didn't manage anything until Satan and Good Boo came in to help. They were going to get killed due to their overconfidence. Even in the end Goku admits that he needs to train to catch up to him incase he emerges out of Good Boo again.
Miracles wrote: Again, that's cause Goku already stated that Evil Buu would KILL him and Vegeta both. That includes SSJ3. It isn't the same when he chose to defeat Fat Buu with fusion. That's cause he was already dead and wanted the next generation to defeat Buu. Plus, Unlike against Evil Buu, Goku stated he could probably beat Fat Buu with SSJ3 but outright states Evil Buu will kill him and Vegeta both. How you can conclude these scenarios are the same shows again another out of context line by you


No, he hardly uses ssj3 in that arc other than stalling Majin Boo for trunks or somehow fighting Gotenks-Boo. Goku states he will he killed by Evil Boo BEFORE he stated that he could have taken Fat Boo out. Why doesn't Goku go ssj3 near Evil Boo like he did near Gotenks-Boo? Why should not he if he's so afraid as you say?
Miracles wrote:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu's absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.

Yet he mentions "Lowering Power through absorption" since Japanese term doesn't have a plural and he can't be referring to just one because South Kaioshin isn't as strong to give Pure Boo power up if he was strong then Z sword should have been lifted. Again, no reason to use
"Power" at this point of the story if not telling the audience about his power rising from Evil Boo without Kaioshin influence.
You are still taking things out of context. The Kaioshin power statement was addressed. Kaioshin was talking about Buu absorbing the TWO Kaioshin in the past when Babdidi's dad was controlling him. That absorption line was related to the flashback ONLY. Not when Buu absorbed Gohan and Gotenks. Kid Buu's natural state is stronger than the absorbed South Kaio [Buff Buu] and Dai Kai [Fat Buu]. Which in turn caused his heart to change and not be as evil. That's what Kaioshin stated.


No, wait, what are you talking about? That statement about lowering his power through absorption is referring to flashback and i never said it was with Gotenks or Gohan. What i am telling is its clearly telling us that with Good Boo out, he no longer is restricted in tapping his full power which was lowered due to God influence that's why his ki skyrocketed the moment Vegeta detached Good Boo. If you think the increase in ki is due to South Kaioshin then you are wrong since there is no one connected in his body, it was Boo's untapped power for years since he absorbed the Gods. That's why Kaioshin was terrified after seeing Pure Boo even though he was celebrating with Evil Boo because Kaioshin isn't a battle Hungry Saiyan, he knows the whole thing and along with Old Kaioshin he was keeping an eye on the battle all along. Goku loves fighting one on one, with Vegeta he was still on Earth and he already told Piccolo about how he's used to ssj3 on Afterlife more than earth. He acted on his battle hunger and regretted not chosing Potara, never ever implied "Gohan could have done it". Even when he's trying to guess Vegeta's plan he's like "you want Gohan and Gotenks to Help us in fighting Boo". See here, the way its worded nowhere its hinted that either is enough on contrary it means, Goku, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegeta and Fat Boo will have to join forces to take down Boo. Nothing you say lines up with the story.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:17 am

Goku and Vegeta’s actions are somewhat forgiveable if they thought SS2 would be able to manage something against Pure Boo. It should be remembered that Goku’s SS3 was still a work in progress, he was very reluctant about using it, possibly influencing in the assessment about his own strength. Finally, to answer the question, it seems that Toriyama wanted to level Boo with Goku and Vegeta, but ultimately the editorial staff might have got the impression that the final form of a villain is the strongest, reproducing this sentiment on the anime and even supplemental publications, like the recent V-Jump comment on Gohan-Boo being on par with SS3 Goku.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:43 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Goku and Vegeta’s actions are somewhat forgiveable if they thought SS2 would be able to manage something against Pure Boo. It should be remembered that Goku’s SS3 was still a work in progress, he was very reluctant about using it, possibly influencing in the assessment about his own strength. Finally, to answer the question, it seems that Toriyama wanted to level Boo with Goku and Vegeta, but ultimately the editorial staff might have got the impression that the final form of a villain is the strongest, reproducing this sentiment on the anime and even supplemental publications, like the recent V-Jump comment on Gohan-Boo being on par with SS3 Goku.
See, the thing is the argument of Pure Boo ki being lower than Evil Boo is completely fan rumour. In the Manga, which scales everything by the term "Ki", there's no mention of Pure Boo ki being weaker than anyone or his Old Transformation. On top of that, From a story point of view what's the point of Buff Boo? It makes no sense that the villain would get stronger just for him to get weaker(in 2 pages :D). Buff Boo was just to show how much weaker the Kaioshins made Pure Boo and to make the heroes and readers go " oh crap he's big!! Oh wait he's small" just like with Freeza and Cell where their second last Forms were bigger than final. Also, on the next page Kaioshin literally ends his sentence with "Lower power through absorptions" and what do you think Vegeta did just now? He detached the Kaioshin influence. Vegeta is known for making things worse, this is no different. It was clear when i checked herms translations that Pure Boo was strongest Unfused Boo atleast. Toriyama just chose "Troublesome" instead of "Strongest", i think everything about narrative points that way. Otherwise Goku and Vegeta would get Gohan to finish Boo now that both were worn out from fighting Boo, but Vegeta was willing to take hits from Pure Boo if it buys Goku time and then asked him to take both him and Boo Down with Genki Dama when he wasn't able to move. And also, Goku never ever implied Gohan or Gotenks is enough, he wanted to both of them to help them fight which means them working in team to take him down or if Goku was counting himself and Vegeta out then atleast both trying to fight together and find a way to kill them, which actually makes Genki Dama better solution. The only one implied to be able to take down Pure Boo alone was Vegetto, that's it.

Toriyama had complete freedom in Boo arc btw and he already told how he likes to draw shortest characters to be most dangerous since he loves going against expectations of viewers, he says the same thing in an interview where interviewer asked him with Pure Boo in his final form as an example about strongest. V Jump forgot things. Even in DBS Manga first chapter and even at the start of new arc it strongly implies Pure Boo is strongest.
Last edited by Ripper 30 on Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:12 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
Then why does Goku say he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets? Why is he not talking about decrease in ki? Again this is DBZ, atleast one character always mentions decrease in ki. Okay answer this, when Goku after he gets up from battle with Majin Vegeta gets to Room of Spirit and Time, why did he told them he was planning to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to take Boo Down when he has ssj3? Because it's same thing here, he has already shown reluctance towards using ssj3 and is more than happy to use fusion everytime, it's same here. And when he's trying to tell they are no match for Evil Boo he's trying to persuade him to fuse, i am sorry but no one would make gag faces when so scared like Goku made in that section whereas with Pure Boo fight after he knew he was driven into a corner he hardly made a gag face and this time was dead serious.
Goku stated they "will manage something" AFTER telling Kaioshin they will fight Kid Buu head up. That means they will manage physically beating Buu and they did. But Goku outright stated Evil Buu will straight up kill them. Again you are taking things out of context.

Yet Goku never states the ki dropping, why? After fighting Boo on the contrary he states that Pure Boo was having fun and he comes back no matter what he does and regrets not taking potara because he was showing off. So its same thing here, if he went to fight with Evil Boo it would turn out the same. Also what? No they didn't manage anything until Satan and Good Boo came in to help. They were going to get killed due to their overconfidence. Even in the end Goku admits that he needs to train to catch up to him incase he emerges out of Good Boo again.
Goku outright said they can manage something against Kid Buu unlike evil buu. BTW, Goku only ASKED if Kid Buu's ki is increasing. Then when Kid Buu shows up, Kakarot gets happy and says they can manage something against Kid Buu. Unlike when he said that he and Vegeta will outright get killed by Evil Buu. THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE. More proof of this, is when Goku fought kid Buu evenly with SSJ3. That is not the same fact that he said Evil Buu will outright kill him. It just proves that Goku had a chance to win against Kid Buu and NOT Evil Buu. What is it that you aren't getting? Stop ignoring the story for your own narration.
Miracles wrote: Again, that's cause Goku already stated that Evil Buu would KILL him and Vegeta both. That includes SSJ3. It isn't the same when he chose to defeat Fat Buu with fusion. That's cause he was already dead and wanted the next generation to defeat Buu. Plus, Unlike against Evil Buu, Goku stated he could probably beat Fat Buu with SSJ3 but outright states Evil Buu will kill him and Vegeta both. How you can conclude these scenarios are the same shows again another out of context line by you


No, he hardly uses ssj3 in that arc other than stalling Majin Boo for trunks or somehow fighting Gotenks-Boo. Goku states he will he killed by Evil Boo BEFORE he stated that he could have taken Fat Boo out. Why doesn't Goku go ssj3 near Evil Boo like he did near Gotenks-Boo? Why should not he if he's so afraid as you say?
Goku STALLED for time against fat Buu and Gotenks Buu FOR fusion with SSJ3. He had NO answer for Evil Buu cause he and Vegeta already used Patora. So he didn't go out there with SSJ3 just to be killed by Evil Buu. It would be a waste of time. Yet against Kid Buu he was confident they could manage and even decided to fight him one on one just like he did against fat Buu because he COULD. Unlike Evil Buu...Again you aren't paying attention to the story.
Miracles wrote:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”


Do you know what the Kaioshins were referring to here as well? It was concerning the backstory of Kid Buu absorbing Dai Kai. His heart wasn't pure evil anymore. This was in no way a comparison to other Buu's absorbed forms but only concerning the Dai Kai he absorbed which turned him into fat Buu. Which in turn didn't make him all out evil.

Yet he mentions "Lowering Power through absorption" since Japanese term doesn't have a plural and he can't be referring to just one because South Kaioshin isn't as strong to give Pure Boo power up if he was strong then Z sword should have been lifted. Again, no reason to use
"Power" at this point of the story if not telling the audience about his power rising from Evil Boo without Kaioshin influence.

Look at the whole text...
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Pay attention to the context. The absorption word was general for the flashback only. Kaioshin absorption lowered kid buu's powers compared to fat buu and buff buu. Not evil Buu.
You are still taking things out of context. The Kaioshin power statement was addressed. Kaioshin was talking about Buu absorbing the TWO Kaioshin in the past when Babdidi's dad was controlling him. That absorption line was related to the flashback ONLY. Not when Buu absorbed Gohan and Gotenks. Kid Buu's natural state is stronger than the absorbed South Kaio [Buff Buu] and Dai Kai [Fat Buu]. Which in turn caused his heart to change and not be as evil. That's what Kaioshin stated.

No, wait, what are you talking about? That statement about lowering his power through absorption is referring to flashback and i never said it was with Gotenks or Gohan. What i am telling is its clearly telling us that with Good Boo out, he no longer is restricted in tapping his full power which was lowered due to God influence that's why his ki skyrocketed the moment Vegeta detached Good Boo. If you think the increase in ki is due to South Kaioshin then you are wrong since there is no one connected in his body, it was Boo's untapped power for years since he absorbed the Gods. That's why Kaioshin was terrified after seeing Pure Boo even though he was celebrating with Evil Boo because Kaioshin isn't a battle Hungry Saiyan, he knows the whole thing and along with Old Kaioshin he was keeping an eye on the battle all along. Goku loves fighting one on one, with Vegeta he was still on Earth and he already told Piccolo about how he's used to ssj3 on Afterlife more than earth. He acted on his battle hunger and regretted not chosing Potara, never ever implied "Gohan could have done it". Even when he's trying to guess Vegeta's plan he's like "you want Gohan and Gotenks to Help us in fighting Boo". See here, the way its worded nowhere its hinted that either is enough on contrary it means, Goku, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegeta and Fat Boo will have to join forces to take down Boo. Nothing you say lines up with the story.

Again you aren't reading properly. Kid Buu's ki did not increase from Evil Buu. Kakarot ASKED if it was increasing but after kid buu showed up he said they could manage something. That means Kid Buu wasn't stronger thanEvil Buu whom Kakarot said would outright kill him. You are mixed up.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:35 am

Miracles wrote:Goku outright said they can manage something against Kid Buu unlike evil buu. BTW, Goku only ASKED if Kid Buu's ki is increasing. Then when Kid Buu shows up, Kakarot gets happy and says they can manage something against Kid Buu. Unlike when he said that he and Vegeta will outright get killed by Evil Buu. THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE. More proof of this, is when Goku fought kid Buu evenly with SSJ3. That is not the same fact that he said Evil Buu will outright kill him. It just proves that Goku had a chance to win against Kid Buu and NOT Evil Buu. What is it that you aren't getting? Stop ignoring the story for your own narration.


Goku outright says to Kuririn he was on par with Vegeta so if Vegeta can't do a thing, he can't as well. Goku right after fighting Boo told Piccolo he probably would have lost, only to say later he could have won. Wait, now you think he was just asking his ki is increasing but it was never increasing? :D :D, wait i will complete the story for you, Kid Boo shows up, Goku and Vegeta say they maybe able to manage something but everytime the sign of Kid Boo coming back were arising there was a fear on Kibitoshin face. I guess he has some private agenda with Bobbidi because he's celebrating after seeing Evil Boo but loses shit after seeing Pure Boo, it can't be just because he remembers him because there is no point in being scared of a form which just downgraded then the one he was celebrating with. First of all, Goku and Vegeta were shrunk in Boo's body and Goku was not counting his Full Power, why you may ask? Notice how he responds to Gotenks-Boo and notice how he responds to Evil Boo. His Top priority here was to save kids first and fusion was the best choice, unlike the battle with Pure Boo where he acknowledged that potara can do the job but he wants to do it his way. If you are just basing entire thing from one character statements then according to your Logic, Burter is the fastest in the universe

[
Miracles wrote:Goku STALLED for time against fat Buu and Gotenks Buu FOR fusion with SSJ3. He had NO answer for Evil Buu cause he and Vegeta already used Patora. So he didn't go out there with SSJ3 just to be killed by Evil Buu. It would be a waste of time. Yet against Kid Buu he was confident they could manage and even decided to fight him one on one just like he did against fat Buu because he COULD. Unlike Evil Buu...Again you aren't paying attention to the story.


So, Evil Boo >>>>> Gotenks-Boo since he atleast tried to fight Gotenks-Boo but never bothered with Evil Boo. The ssj3 was still work in progress for Goku and its a fact that he was trying to use fusion dance over it like when he told Kuririn that he planned to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to kill Boo even though he has ssj3 should be a proof of the fact that how much he was downplaying his ssj3. Plus, he already knew Vegeta was pissed off with his ssj3 so he has another reason to not use it if he has other option. You are making no sense, why would Goku not even try his strongest form if he knows he's gonna lose but try ssj? How does that make sense. If he like how Vegeta was with Pure Boo when he doesn't bother changing form and fighting in base because he knows the result then its different. It's either going full power or staying in base, Goku does neither of them. You still haven't mentioned any statement of Pure Boo being weaker than Evil Boo other than Goku's confidence thing which doesn't mean anything when the character admits he was trying to show off and potara was the right option.
Miracles wrote: Look at the whole text...
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Pay attention to the context. The absorption word was general for the flashback only. Kaioshin absorption lowered kid buu's powers compared to fat buu and buff buu. Not evil Buu.

You are again not making sense. If he says his power was lowered by absorptions and Vegeta did exactly opposite of that, which is, take out the source of absorptions then what will happen? Why is his ki shooting up instantly? He can't be accessing South Kaioshin absorbed ki because he's not in him anymore. Good Boo was the source of both Kaioshin powers so removing him will give his unrestricted power back. It's that simple. Why would his ki start shooting up suddenly? When Goku took out Piccolo and kids, in the next panels he reverted to Base form and ki drops immediately and Character remarks about ki dropping something no one did with Pure Boo.why would his Ki rise if South Kaioshin was powering him up? When he reverts from Gotenks-Boo to Piccolo-Boo, does his Ki rise again? If Pure Boo still has South Kaioshin ki then why doesn't he stay in that Buff form? See the story doesn't even go with how your narrative is suggesting.
Again you aren't reading properly. Kid Buu's ki did not increase from Evil Buu. Kakarot ASKED if it was increasing but after kid buu showed up he said they could manage something. That means Kid Buu wasn't stronger thanEvil Buu whom Kakarot said would outright kill him. You are mixed up.

So you think that panel was shown for nothing and Kaioshin telling how Boo's ki was lowered through absorption of the influence Vegeta just pulled out is nothing noteworthy. You are literally twisting things to fit your narrative :D :D :D. Goku saw it increasing that's why Goku was asking Vegeta and again, why do you think Akira is so scared to use the term "Ki" here even though he used the term "Ki" when Evil Boo reverted to base form. It's literally Headcanon of yours to assume his Ki went down when no one mentioned it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Again, Vegeta used a term they used back in RRA when Bulma shrunk herself with Micro Band, why would Toriyama use that term but not Ki? It's like you are going against the author's words. Toriyama loves to go against the expectations of viewers by making the most smallest looking designs the most strongest. Like Goku in RRA, Freeza Final Form from his 3rd form, etc. Even the interviewer asked him about the smallest being the mightiest with example of Pure Boo and Toriyama answered it. The appeal of Pure Boo is that he's the most strongest Unfused Boo but looks like a kid, even in DBS he does this with Omni King. Nothing in your narrative makes sense, according to you Gohan can beat Pure Boo yet Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to bring Gotenks and Gohan to help them in fighting Boo. Gohan can one shot Boo yet Vegeta choose a risky plan, then was ready to take beatings near death from Pure Boo while Goku gathers Genki and then when he was too hurt to get up, asking Goku to even take both him and Pure Boo down with Genki Dama? Old Kaioshin recommended potara to deal with Gotenks-Boo, powered up Gohan yet he won't recommend the supposedly "Stronger than Pure Boo" Gohan? Kaio and Piccolo are known for correcting the warriors by giving them advices and you are telling no one even telling him to bring Gohan makes sense? Goku is terrified that if he doesn't stop boo here the earth will again come close to destruction, why? Gohan is already there and seeing how Gotenks in ssj was able to take rounds of earth in no time, you can't tell me Gohan won't be quick enough to get where Boo is if he arrived since he's above ssj3 Gotenks. That's why, Goku worrying that if Boo isn't stopped here then everyone will be doomed makes no sense according your logic. If Gohan > Pure Boo, then why would Vegeta be terrified on thought of another Pure Boo emerging from inside of Good Boo if Gohan is enough? Why would Goku talk about training one-on-one incase he emerges next time? Did he just forgot his son? No, he isn't talking about just him and Vegeta he's talking about overall otherwise he would not say this if his Son was enough to kill Boo. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donating Ki and almost failing is really good indicator of the narrative, they even show Gohan's enthusiastic face while donating ki,so he was holding back?
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Miracles
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:24 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote:Goku outright said they can manage something against Kid Buu unlike evil buu. BTW, Goku only ASKED if Kid Buu's ki is increasing. Then when Kid Buu shows up, Kakarot gets happy and says they can manage something against Kid Buu. Unlike when he said that he and Vegeta will outright get killed by Evil Buu. THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE. More proof of this, is when Goku fought kid Buu evenly with SSJ3. That is not the same fact that he said Evil Buu will outright kill him. It just proves that Goku had a chance to win against Kid Buu and NOT Evil Buu. What is it that you aren't getting? Stop ignoring the story for your own narration.


Goku outright says to Kuririn he was on par with Vegeta so if Vegeta can't do a thing, he can't as well. Goku right after fighting Boo told Piccolo he probably would have lost, only to say later he could have won. Wait, now you think he was just asking his ki is increasing but it was never increasing? :D :D, wait i will complete the story for you, Kid Boo shows up, Goku and Vegeta say they maybe able to manage something but everytime the sign of Kid Boo coming back were arising there was a fear on Kibitoshin face. I guess he has some private agenda with Bobbidi because he's celebrating after seeing Evil Boo but loses shit after seeing Pure Boo, it can't be just because he remembers him because there is no point in being scared of a form which just downgraded then the one he was celebrating with. First of all, Goku and Vegeta were shrunk in Boo's body and Goku was not counting his Full Power, why you may ask? Notice how he responds to Gotenks-Boo and notice how he responds to Evil Boo. His Top priority here was to save kids first and fusion was the best choice, unlike the battle with Pure Boo where he acknowledged that potara can do the job but he wants to do it his way. If you are just basing entire thing from one character statements then according to your Logic, Burter is the fastest in the universe
Except Burter was proven to be outclassed by Goku and Goku equally fighting Kid Buu backs up his statement. Proof and action go hand in hand.
Miracles wrote:Goku STALLED for time against fat Buu and Gotenks Buu FOR fusion with SSJ3. He had NO answer for Evil Buu cause he and Vegeta already used Patora. So he didn't go out there with SSJ3 just to be killed by Evil Buu. It would be a waste of time. Yet against Kid Buu he was confident they could manage and even decided to fight him one on one just like he did against fat Buu because he COULD. Unlike Evil Buu...Again you aren't paying attention to the story.

So, Evil Boo >>>>> Gotenks-Boo since he atleast tried to fight Gotenks-Boo but never bothered with Evil Boo. The ssj3 was still work in progress for Goku and its a fact that he was trying to use fusion dance over it like when he told Kuririn that he planned to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta to kill Boo even though he has ssj3 should be a proof of the fact that how much he was downplaying his ssj3. Plus, he already knew Vegeta was pissed off with his ssj3 so he has another reason to not use it if he has other option. You are making no sense, why would Goku not even try his strongest form if he knows he's gonna lose but try ssj? How does that make sense. If he like how Vegeta was with Pure Boo when he doesn't bother changing form and fighting in base because he knows the result then its different. It's either going full power or staying in base, Goku does neither of them. You still haven't mentioned any statement of Pure Boo being weaker than Evil Boo other than Goku's confidence thing which doesn't mean anything when the character admits he was trying to show off and potara was the right option.
Wrong again...The only reason why Goku fought Gotenks Buu was to stall for Gohan to look for the patora. So he could fuse with him and beat Gotenks Buu. Again you aren't paying attention to the story.
Miracles wrote: Look at the whole text...
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Pay attention to the context. The absorption word was general for the flashback only. Kaioshin absorption lowered kid buu's powers compared to fat buu and buff buu. Not evil Buu.
You are again not making sense. If he says his power was lowered by absorptions and Vegeta did exactly opposite of that, which is, take out the source of absorptions then what will happen? Why is his ki shooting up instantly? He can't be accessing South Kaioshin absorbed ki because he's not in him anymore. Good Boo was the source of both Kaioshin powers so removing him will give his unrestricted power back. It's that simple. Why would his ki start shooting up suddenly? When Goku took out Piccolo and kids, in the next panels he reverted to Base form and ki drops immediately and Character remarks about ki dropping something no one did with Pure Boo.why would his Ki rise if South Kaioshin was powering him up? When he reverts from Gotenks-Boo to Piccolo-Boo, does his Ki rise again? If Pure Boo still has South Kaioshin ki then why doesn't he stay in that Buff form? See the story doesn't even go with how your narrative is suggesting.

See...You are contradicting the story...Kid Buu's Ki did not shoot up from Evil Buu. Kakarot and Vegeta already proved that as stated above. So that means the absorption quote was strictly concerning the Kaioshin Kid Buu absorbed which in turn lowered his power compared to his pure kid buu state.
Again you aren't reading properly. Kid Buu's ki did not increase from Evil Buu. Kakarot ASKED if it was increasing but after kid buu showed up he said they could manage something. That means Kid Buu wasn't stronger thanEvil Buu whom Kakarot said would outright kill him. You are mixed up.
So you think that panel was shown for nothing and Kaioshin telling how Boo's ki was lowered through absorption of the influence Vegeta just pulled out is nothing noteworthy. You are literally twisting things to fit your narrative :D :D :D. Goku saw it increasing that's why Goku was asking Vegeta and again, why do you think Akira is so scared to use the term "Ki" here even though he used the term "Ki" when Evil Boo reverted to base form. It's literally Headcanon of yours to assume his Ki went down when no one mentioned it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Again, Vegeta used a term they used back in RRA when Bulma shrunk herself with Micro Band, why would Toriyama use that term but not Ki? It's like you are going against the author's words. Toriyama loves to go against the expectations of viewers by making the most smallest looking designs the most strongest. Like Goku in RRA, Freeza Final Form from his 3rd form, etc. Even the interviewer asked him about the smallest being the mightiest with example of Pure Boo and Toriyama answered it. The appeal of Pure Boo is that he's the most strongest Unfused Boo but looks like a kid, even in DBS he does this with Omni King. Nothing in your narrative makes sense, according to you Gohan can beat Pure Boo yet Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to bring Gotenks and Gohan to help them in fighting Boo. Gohan can one shot Boo yet Vegeta choose a risky plan, then was ready to take beatings near death from Pure Boo while Goku gathers Genki and then when he was too hurt to get up, asking Goku to even take both him and Pure Boo down with Genki Dama? Old Kaioshin recommended potara to deal with Gotenks-Boo, powered up Gohan yet he won't recommend the supposedly "Stronger than Pure Boo" Gohan? Kaio and Piccolo are known for correcting the warriors by giving them advices and you are telling no one even telling him to bring Gohan makes sense? Goku is terrified that if he doesn't stop boo here the earth will again come close to destruction, why? Gohan is already there and seeing how Gotenks in ssj was able to take rounds of earth in no time, you can't tell me Gohan won't be quick enough to get where Boo is if he arrived since he's above ssj3 Gotenks. That's why, Goku worrying that if Boo isn't stopped here then everyone will be doomed makes no sense according your logic. If Gohan > Pure Boo, then why would Vegeta be terrified on thought of another Pure Boo emerging from inside of Good Boo if Gohan is enough? Why would Goku talk about training one-on-one incase he emerges next time? Did he just forgot his son? No, he isn't talking about just him and Vegeta he's talking about overall otherwise he would not say this if his Son was enough to kill Boo. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donating Ki and almost failing is really good indicator of the narrative, they even show Gohan's enthusiastic face while donating ki,so he was holding back?

Kaioshin absorption was concerning the Kai's Kid Buu absorbed. The flashback showed only the Kai's and the text only compared Kid Buu to his absorption of the two Kai's. If Kid Buu's power increased Goku wouldn't have been confident to fight Kid Buu head up and he did equally unlike being scared of Evil Buu. You better reread the text.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 am

So you think that panel was shown for nothing and Kaioshin telling how Boo's ki was lowered through absorption of the influence Vegeta just pulled out is nothing noteworthy. You are literally twisting things to fit your narrative :D :D :D. Goku saw it increasing that's why Goku was asking Vegeta and again, why do you think Akira is so scared to use the term "Ki" here even though he used the term "Ki" when Evil Boo reverted to base form. It's literally Headcanon of yours to assume his Ki went down when no one mentioned it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Again, Vegeta used a term they used back in RRA when Bulma shrunk herself with Micro Band, why would Toriyama use that term but not Ki? It's like you are going against the author's words. Toriyama loves to go against the expectations of viewers by making the most smallest looking designs the most strongest. Like Goku in RRA, Freeza Final Form from his 3rd form, etc. Even the interviewer asked him about the smallest being the mightiest with example of Pure Boo and Toriyama answered it. The appeal of Pure Boo is that he's the most strongest Unfused Boo but looks like a kid, even in DBS he does this with Omni King. Nothing in your narrative makes sense, according to you Gohan can beat Pure Boo yet Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to bring Gotenks and Gohan to help them in fighting Boo. Gohan can one shot Boo yet Vegeta choose a risky plan, then was ready to take beatings near death from Pure Boo while Goku gathers Genki and then when he was too hurt to get up, asking Goku to even take both him and Pure Boo down with Genki Dama? Old Kaioshin recommended potara to deal with Gotenks-Boo, powered up Gohan yet he won't recommend the supposedly "Stronger than Pure Boo" Gohan? Kaio and Piccolo are known for correcting the warriors by giving them advices and you are telling no one even telling him to bring Gohan makes sense? Goku is terrified that if he doesn't stop boo here the earth will again come close to destruction, why? Gohan is already there and seeing how Gotenks in ssj was able to take rounds of earth in no time, you can't tell me Gohan won't be quick enough to get where Boo is if he arrived since he's above ssj3 Gotenks. That's why, Goku worrying that if Boo isn't stopped here then everyone will be doomed makes no sense according your logic. If Gohan > Pure Boo, then why would Vegeta be terrified on thought of another Pure Boo emerging from inside of Good Boo if Gohan is enough? Why would Goku talk about training one-on-one incase he emerges next time? Did he just forgot his son? No, he isn't talking about just him and Vegeta he's talking about overall otherwise he would not say this if his Son was enough to kill Boo. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donating Ki and almost failing is really good indicator of the narrative, they even show Gohan's enthusiastic face while donating ki,so he was holding back?
Toriyama does have it implied though with Goku thinking that they now could manage something. He had Goku say that he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu, then has Goku say that Buu's ki is increasing (thus going even higher than "no chance") and then later has him say that they might be able to manage something. At face value, without making any assumptions or inserting head canon, the only thing that we can take from this is that his power had to decrease.

Vegeta explained why he chose the plan, and as nonsensical as it may be for him to do that rather than bring Gohan and Gotenks up, we have to accept that his reason is the only reason at play. Not that they weren't strong enough to win, just that he wanted Earth to handle its own protection for once.

Look at what happened the moment that Pure Buu formed. He went and blew up the planet. That alone is a good enough explanation for why Vegeta would be scared of another Buu appearing. As for Gohan and/or Gotenks rushing to the rescue, if you look at things like the Broly movie, where despite clearly how much power any of the characters could be sensing that is being put out, you don't see Gohan or the others coming to investigate. So who is to say that either of them would investigate if another Buu appeared? Goku's lines on the matter are quite simple and straightforward. He wants to be prepared so that, if necessary, he and Vegeta could fight one-on-one against a revived Buu and not lose. Nothing more.

Gohan and the others donating is a non-factor, since they were donating genki, not ki, to the Genki Dama, and thus all that can be taken from that is that the likes of Gohan's genki isn't enough to overwhelm Buu's full ki, not that Gohan himself is weaker than Buu.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Vertical » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:31 am

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.



"We did it!" Did what exactly? What were they trying to do? Were they tying to make Buu small? No, they were trying to lower Buu's strength to a manageable level... and they did it. Vegeta snarks about Buu's size while Goku celebrates their success. Buu is now within reach (though the pair still initially underestimate Buu).

The end.

I'm surprised this quote is not within the opening post but is only referred to.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:46 am

Miracles wrote: Except Burter was proven to be outclassed by Goku and Goku equally fighting Kid Buu backs up his statement. Proof and action go hand in hand.
give me the quote where Goku's saying he's fighting Toe to Toe. Goku told Vegeta he's not holding back and after gathering ki for a minute he came to the conclusion it's not enough and then pushed his limits even more. Gathering ki thing here is same as Piccolo's Makankosappo.
Miracles wrote:Wrong again...The only reason why Goku fought Gotenks Buu was to stall for Gohan to look for the patora. So he could fuse with him and beat Gotenks Buu. Again you aren't paying attention to the story.

Unless you saw Goku go ssj3 to save his life near Evil Boo its pointless assumption since in manga Goku said that to make Vegeta fuse and his confidence to fight pure Boo is not something which should be taken into account since he instantly admitted he was trying to act cool. Which puts both him and Evil Boo in same boat.
Miracles wrote:See...You are contradicting the story...Kid Buu's Ki did not shoot up from Evil Buu. Kakarot and Vegeta already proved that as stated above. So that means the absorption quote was strictly concerning the Kaioshin Kid Buu absorbed which in turn lowered his power compared to his pure kid buu state.

Then, why didn't Goku who always uses the term "ki" never mentioned it? He instantly did that when Evil Boo reverted to base, he was the one asking Vegeta on Boo's ki going down then why didn't he mentioned it? When did Goku and Vegeta proved that? according to your logic Second Form Cell > Perfect Cell since Vegeta told Cell that he doesn't seem to get powerful in Perfect form. Kaioshin ki can't power up Boo as implied by Dabra who never took Ki of Kaioshins even though he was planning to send henchmen to take ki from vastly inferior fodder humans. South Kaioshin can't be as strong as Pure Boo as well otherwise, you are contradicting the the Legend of Z Sword and how no one has ever lifted it. Kaioshin ki can not add, Boo can't access Ki of someone who's not inside him, he was just transforming in reverse and if you read the lines, Kaioshin never implied that South Kaioshin powered him up, it's your headcanon.
]
Kaioshin absorption was concerning the Kai's Kid Buu absorbed. The flashback showed only the Kai's and the text only compared Kid Buu to his absorption of the two Kai's. If Kid Buu's power increased Goku wouldn't have been confident to fight Kid Buu head up and he did equally unlike being scared of Evil Buu. You better reread the text.
No, he never pointed that out. Boo can't get powerful by divine ki and that's what Dabra said when he said he can't take Kaioshin ki but others are still option. There's no flashback in manga to begin with only expositions and 2 new pictures, that's it. Also you aren't making sense with your statement, Goku on the contrary loves fighting strong guys. Why does he enter to fight final form Freeza and Cell? Why does he enter to fight Vegeta? It's the same thing of desire and battle hunger, Toriyama already stated it both in manga and interviews. He wanted to fight one on one because unlike Gohan-Boo, he now can go all out without having to worry for saving the kids and can use ssj3 as much as he can now that he wanted to fight with his own powers. No, he wasn't scared 4 of the 5 faces in those panels were Gag faces, like someone trying to goof around, i am sorry that's not how we interpret fear when he's making comedic faces. Even if he went to fight Evil Boo and was outclassed he would be in same pinch as with Pure Boo. Also stop with the Headcanons of Boo ki decreasing when no one said so, Goku's desire to test his powers is his main trait. With Evil Boo he said all that to convince Vegeta and guess what he did before that? He noted fall in Evil Boo ki and instantly said that. Everytime he noticed fall in Ki he remarked about that, it's what you say is true then why didn't he said it explicitly that Pure Boo ki is weak enough when it's supposedly his cause of relief? Contrary to your claim, his reply was right after Vegeta laughing at Pure Boo's size. Why was he judging his attack by its size in next panels? Why didn't he go ssj3 to stop it? Because he knows he can't and in original he says that "because things are dangerous but Boo ain't merged" as the reason for not merging and what happened afterwards? "Potara was the right choice, i tried to act too cool", none of his statements inside Evil Boo have anything to do with it when character admits his inferiority.

Darkprince410 wrote:
So you think that panel was shown for nothing and Kaioshin telling how Boo's ki was lowered through absorption of the influence Vegeta just pulled out is nothing noteworthy. You are literally twisting things to fit your narrative :D :D :D. Goku saw it increasing that's why Goku was asking Vegeta and again, why do you think Akira is so scared to use the term "Ki" here even though he used the term "Ki" when Evil Boo reverted to base form. It's literally Headcanon of yours to assume his Ki went down when no one mentioned it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Again, Vegeta used a term they used back in RRA when Bulma shrunk herself with Micro Band, why would Toriyama use that term but not Ki? It's like you are going against the author's words. Toriyama loves to go against the expectations of viewers by making the most smallest looking designs the most strongest. Like Goku in RRA, Freeza Final Form from his 3rd form, etc. Even the interviewer asked him about the smallest being the mightiest with example of Pure Boo and Toriyama answered it. The appeal of Pure Boo is that he's the most strongest Unfused Boo but looks like a kid, even in DBS he does this with Omni King. Nothing in your narrative makes sense, according to you Gohan can beat Pure Boo yet Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to bring Gotenks and Gohan to help them in fighting Boo. Gohan can one shot Boo yet Vegeta choose a risky plan, then was ready to take beatings near death from Pure Boo while Goku gathers Genki and then when he was too hurt to get up, asking Goku to even take both him and Pure Boo down with Genki Dama? Old Kaioshin recommended potara to deal with Gotenks-Boo, powered up Gohan yet he won't recommend the supposedly "Stronger than Pure Boo" Gohan? Kaio and Piccolo are known for correcting the warriors by giving them advices and you are telling no one even telling him to bring Gohan makes sense? Goku is terrified that if he doesn't stop boo here the earth will again come close to destruction, why? Gohan is already there and seeing how Gotenks in ssj was able to take rounds of earth in no time, you can't tell me Gohan won't be quick enough to get where Boo is if he arrived since he's above ssj3 Gotenks. That's why, Goku worrying that if Boo isn't stopped here then everyone will be doomed makes no sense according your logic. If Gohan > Pure Boo, then why would Vegeta be terrified on thought of another Pure Boo emerging from inside of Good Boo if Gohan is enough? Why would Goku talk about training one-on-one incase he emerges next time? Did he just forgot his son? No, he isn't talking about just him and Vegeta he's talking about overall otherwise he would not say this if his Son was enough to kill Boo. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donating Ki and almost failing is really good indicator of the narrative, they even show Gohan's enthusiastic face while donating ki,so he was holding back?
Toriyama does have it implied though with Goku thinking that they now could manage something. He had Goku say that he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu, then has Goku say that Buu's ki is increasing (thus going even higher than "no chance") and then later has him say that they might be able to manage something. At face value, without making any assumptions or inserting head canon, the only thing that we can take from this is that his power had to decrease.

Vegeta explained why he chose the plan, and as nonsensical as it may be for him to do that rather than bring Gohan and Gotenks up, we have to accept that his reason is the only reason at play. Not that they weren't strong enough to win, just that he wanted Earth to handle its own protection for once.

Look at what happened the moment that Pure Buu formed. He went and blew up the planet. That alone is a good enough explanation for why Vegeta would be scared of another Buu appearing. As for Gohan and/or Gotenks rushing to the rescue, if you look at things like the Broly movie, where despite clearly how much power any of the characters could be sensing that is being put out, you don't see Gohan or the others coming to investigate. So who is to say that either of them would investigate if another Buu appeared? Goku's lines on the matter are quite simple and straightforward. He wants to be prepared so that, if necessary, he and Vegeta could fight one-on-one against a revived Buu and not lose. Nothing more.

Gohan and the others donating is a non-factor, since they were donating genki, not ki, to the Genki Dama, and thus all that can be taken from that is that the likes of Gohan's genki isn't enough to overwhelm Buu's full ki, not that Gohan himself is weaker than Buu.
That's because they judged him from his size. Ki can fluctuate as we see already aware in Dragon Ball. Why didn't Goku say "phew now he's ki is down we can beat him", he makes Vegeta say "hehe he shrunk quite a bit" and Goku replying to Vegeta as "We did it. This way we might be able to manage something". Their priority was to save Kids and then Goku never talked about drop in ki. Why? When he explicitly told Vegeta how Evil Boo ki is smaller, when on Kaioshin realm he talks about Pure Boo ki never going down no matter what he does, when he explicitly said that with Gohan and his friend's ki the Genki Dama is huge. Why won't he use ki here? Because he never judged him off his size. When even Vegeta thinks that he can beat him and Goku agrees to him then something is wrong. We sure know Toriyama loves the gag of smallest characters being strongest and someone joking about the height but realizing they are wrong. Even in DBS this trend is on with Omni King. No, you're making headcanons because Vegeta says he shrunk and Goku even then never uses the term Ki when he's used to using ki to measure Powers. And if you think that this implied that he's talking about ki decrease then we can assume Old Kaioshin was referring to "Most Strongest Boo" by "Most Troublesome".

The moment Goku recommends Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them that totally makes your point moot about Gohan being enough. Vegeta will obviously prefer Genki Dama if Gohan and Gotenks end up becoming burden.

What are you saying? Blowing planets is child's play in DBZ, ironically Vegeta was the first person who threatened to blow earth. No it makes no sense, all DBZ villains can blow planets that is not enough to make him fret, if we are talking about same manga then the implications are clear that if Genki Dama failed then they are screwed and everyone is doomed. Goku never implied Gohan can kill him alone. I don't think Modern Dragon Ball is that consistent, we literally see Piccolo and Gohan sensing Shenlong but don't bother checking out who's making wish even though Piccolo is has Kami in him. Modern Dragon Ball hardly uses Gotenks or Gohan so it's not good way to measure anything. Gohan is so ignorant in it that first he spends time with Future Trunks but doesn't bother asking why he's hear the whole time. Modern Dragon Ball just want to milk it with Goku and Vegeta even in latest arc. Are you telling me Gohan and Gotenks would not care about Majin Boo the guy who bested them? Sorry that doesn't make sense, they will be coming with all their anger to take revenge. With Broly they hardly know them and Whis and Beerus are always chilling on earth either way so it's not big deal to them. It's your headcanon assumption that he magically forgot his sons and would only talk about him and Vegeta where Vegeta isn't even ssj3, wrong assumption. He's talking about overall scenario and Goten, Gohan and Trunks still show interest in Boo from earth.
Genki can he interchangeable with Ki. If you divide Ki into three sets, the Yuuki and Shouki are mental state and Genki is vitality so that is same as energy. Even Manga says Ki
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P11.3
Context: Vegeta instructs the Earthlings on how to help make the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”


It's Ki not Genki here for Super Genki Dama and notice how Older Kaioshin isn't even recommending Gohan to one shot Boo and acting like even this is not enough otherwise there's no way he won't recommend an easy solution. He was the one who gave potara to Goku and powered by Gohan, it's nonsense to think he would not say "let's call Gohan to wipe him" if Gohan is above Pure Boo.
Vertical wrote:Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.



"We did it!" Did what exactly? What were they trying to do? Were they tying to make Buu small? No, they were trying to lower Buu's strength to a manageable level... and they did it. Vegeta snarks about Buu's size while Goku celebrates their success. Buu is now within reach (though the pair still initially underestimate Buu).

The end.

I'm surprised this quote is not within the opening post but is only referred to.
That doesn't mean anything, Goku never remarked about ki so what you assume is headcanon. Also according to your logic, Pure Boo > Fat Boo. Since at this point Goku never confessed that he could have beaten Fat Boo and even Vegeta thinks he can take him on. So he has to be around ssj2. It's funny how you're interpreting it that way but no one talks about his Ki going down so it's a headcanon considering both Goku and Vegeta admit their stupidity and Goku explicitly says he was trying to show off and Vegeta admits boo is far stronger. So your "We did it" point is moot.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Vertical » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:04 am

Ripper 30 wrote: That doesn't mean anything, Goku never remarked about ki so what you assume is headcanon. Also according to your logic, Pure Boo > Fat Boo. Since at this point Goku never confessed that he could have beaten Fat Boo and even Vegeta thinks he can take him on. So he has to be around ssj2. It's funny how you're interpreting it that way but no one talks about his Ki going down so it's a headcanon considering both Goku and Vegeta admit their stupidity and Goku explicitly says he was trying to show off and Vegeta admits boo is far stronger. So your "We did it" point is moot.
There is no assumption in my post. Goku and Vegeta's goal was to lower Buu's strength. Goku proclaims "We did it!". They do not need to literally state "Pure. Buu's. Ki. Is. Now. Smaller. Than. Evil. Buu's. Ki." for us to reach that conclusion. Unless you believe they have a different goal that was achieved on that page... feel free to elaborate on that.

And no, that does not necessitate "Pure Buu > Fat Buu", not that there is a prolem with that chain (although I believe you probably mean that I'm implying "Fat Buu > Pure Buu" and have mistakenly stated the other... not that it matters, as I hope you will understand shortly).
When confronted by Piccolo, Goku simply stated he wasn't sure if he could have beaten Fat Buu. Goku uses "we", as in "we might be able to manage something" meaning he believes that he and Vegeta might manage something against Pure Buu (at a stretch you could extend that "we" to Gohan/Gotenks but they were clearly unconscious). In this moment: "SSJ3 Goku might beat Fat Buu" and "SSJ3 Goku + Vegeta's help might beat Pure Buu". The direct comparison between Pure Buu and Fat Buu does not exist within this statement because they are both vague possibles.

Also, in regard to Goku showing off, the situation had changed. When he makes the statement, they are on Earth and he is unaware of the full extent of SSJ3's negative characteristics. As such, that point is irrelevant.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by TobyS » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:55 am

OP is refusing to listen to evidence, being kinda arsey to responders in his tone this thread is pointless not only has it been done to death but it's not being debated in good faith, or debated at all.

We all know Goku was scared of Evil Buu bit thinks they can manage something with Pure.

They don't need to mention his Ki, they can manage something because his ki has gotten smaller.

The fact they underestimate pure buu somewhat is irrelevant. Just because he is stronger than they first thought doesn't mean he is also stronger than Evil. There's a plenty big space in between. If he became as strong as evil buy he'd be scared to fight him too.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:25 am

Vertical wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote: That doesn't mean anything, Goku never remarked about ki so what you assume is headcanon. Also according to your logic, Pure Boo > Fat Boo. Since at this point Goku never confessed that he could have beaten Fat Boo and even Vegeta thinks he can take him on. So he has to be around ssj2. It's funny how you're interpreting it that way but no one talks about his Ki going down so it's a headcanon considering both Goku and Vegeta admit their stupidity and Goku explicitly says he was trying to show off and Vegeta admits boo is far stronger. So your "We did it" point is moot.
There is no assumption in my post. Goku and Vegeta's goal was to lower Buu's strength. Goku proclaims "We did it!". They do not need to literally state "Pure. Buu's. Ki. Is. Now. Smaller. Than. Evil. Buu's. Ki." for us to reach that conclusion. Unless you believe they have a different goal that was achieved on that page... feel free to elaborate on that.

And no, that does not necessitate "Pure Buu > Fat Buu", not that there is a prolem with that chain (although I believe you probably mean that I'm implying "Fat Buu > Pure Buu" and have mistakenly stated the other... not that it matters, as I hope you will understand shortly).
When confronted by Piccolo, Goku simply stated he wasn't sure if he could have beaten Fat Buu. Goku uses "we", as in "we might be able to manage something" meaning he believes that he and Vegeta might manage something against Pure Buu (at a stretch you could extend that "we" to Gohan/Gotenks but they were clearly unconscious). In this moment: "SSJ3 Goku might beat Fat Buu" and "SSJ3 Goku + Vegeta's help might beat Pure Buu". The direct comparison between Pure Buu and Fat Buu does not exist within this statement because they are both vague possibles.

Also, in regard to Goku showing off, the situation had changed. When he makes the statement, they are on Earth and he is unaware of the full extent of SSJ3's negative characteristics. As such, that point is irrelevant.
Then why doesn't he mentioned it when he's mentioning even the smallest details of Ki fluctuations? I can do the same thing, old Kaioshin said "the very first most troublesome boo" implied "The strongest Boo" since Kibitoshin was scared even though he was happy after seeing Base Evil Boo and he answers him by telling how absorptions lowered his power and Vegeta did opposite of what Kaioshin mentioned, which take the person responsible for lowering his power, Fat boo who was influence of both Kaioshins.

Also their goal was first and foremost to rescue kids from inside so i can say the same here, that's why they never worried about what happens to boo if they detach Good Boo and went their way. Also, ever heard the word "overestimate"? That's applicable here.

I think You never read the final battle part because Goku clearly finds out that he underestimated him. Vegeta thought Goku was holding back for him only to find out he wasn't then Goku thinks he needs to gather ki for a minute to wipe out Boo only to find out its not enough. Then he admits that they all should train so that they could handle him incase he appears from Fat Boo again.

See, you are making assumptions from a manga which ALWAYS shows the fluctuations in power by atleast one character saying the word "Ki" yet neither of Goku them do that even though Goku told about Evil Boo ki going down. We have Kaioshin, old Kaioshin, Dende, Goku and Vegeta to remark about ki but you think it's a magical coincidence for them to not mention his Ki dropping?
Also, when Gohan-Boo ki drops to that of Evil Boo, Kibitoshin and Old Kaioshin started CELEBRATING and the moment he say Pure Boo you know what happened, are they under some agenda with Bobbidi to get Saiyans killed? Why would they both go from celebrating around to getting terrified right after seeing the supposedly weaker form? Nah, nothing flows well and it's nonsense this way. But we do know for sure that Toriyama likes to play gag of people mocking the the most strongest character who also happen to be smallest. Like with Goku in Red Ribbon Army arc getting mocked for being a kid only to beat them, Kuririn trying to mock Final Form Freeza and Vegeta trying to mock Cell for getting comparatively smaller in final form. The whole appeal of Pure Boo is that he's the most smallest but he's the strongest unfused Boo ever. Narrative-wise it makes zero sense for his Ki to go up in one page to down in another, what was that? What's the point of powering up the villain only for it to go down?


Chubby Boo does represent both Kaioshins, as when Chubby Boo is removed, Boo returns to his original form that has no one absorbed. Disconnecting Good Boo = disconnecting BOTH South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin. It's impossible for Boo to be accessing his South Kaioshin-absorbed ki because South Kaioshin is no longer connected. The ki that began increasing from Super Boo's ki when fat Boo was removed was Kid Boo's ki all along, as that is literally the only ki left in Boo's system. Otherwise, explain why doesn't Boo's ki skyrocketed in the same way when Gotenks in him diffuse? Why didn't it went up when Piccolo and kids were detached? What happened was, instantly the ki goes down and Boo reverts to base form but with Fat boo the opposite happens, the moment they get out his Ki increases even though the composition in his body is same as Pure Boo i.e. No one to hold his powers back which means the Ki was Pure Boo's all along. The word Vegeta used is "Shrunk" which was only used in RRA arc when Blooma shrunk herself so again it's another proof that Vegeta was judging by size and Goku replies to him. I don't know what's hard to buy here, Toriyama loves to expose their reckless side and similar to them not killing Gero before making Androids its same thing here. Vegeta is known for making things worse like allowing Cell to absorb 18, Majin Vegeta scenario, why would he make him so weak? He actually thinks he can take Boo on in ssj2 but we all know that ssj2 is meaningless in this arc. He and Goku acted reckless and payed the price when they found out Pure Boo was lollygagging all the time. Goku admits acting too cocky and showing off and Vegeta too, "We did it" is meaningless here.

You are telling me Gohan or Goku can generate an attack on the level of Universal Genki Dama? Because Pure Boo almost won their if Goku's energy was never restored. That was the only scene where we see him struggling or show fear.
TobyS wrote:OP is refusing to listen to evidence, being kinda arsey to responders in his tone this thread is pointless not only has it been done to death but it's not being debated in good faith, or debated at all.

We all know Goku was scared of Evil Buu bit thinks they can manage something with Pure.

They don't need to mention his Ki, they can manage something because his ki has gotten smaller.

The fact they underestimate pure buu somewhat is irrelevant. Just because he is stronger than they first thought doesn't mean he is also stronger than Evil. There's a plenty big space in between. If he became as strong as evil buy he'd be scared to fight him too.
Then give me proof of Power decreasing because basing off confidence means nothing in DBZ. Vegeta can sense ki even then he thought he stood a chance near Freeza or Perfect Cell. Goku fighting Freeza who was way above him was because he was... Weak?

Okay, what was the "something" he managed with Pure Boo? Saying to "i tried to show off, Potara could have done it" this is the something he managed to do.

Don't you think it's hypocritical to assume Old Kaioshin saying "Most Troublesome/difficult Boo" never meant strongest (even though their reactions changing from celebration to fear when Boo goes from Evil to Pure says something else) but outta nowhere assume Goku and Vegeta based Boo on his size even though Goku admits to Vegeta that he's not holding back and be tried to show off?
Are we forgetting how much reluctant Goku was of using ssj3 in whole arc and even told Piccolo that he was planning to fuse with either Vegeta or Gohan to beat Boo EVEN THOUGH HE HAS SSJ3.

Goku. Was. Not. Scared., please read that section again.

4 of 5 faces he made were gag faces, art is important in judging the state of a character and Goku hardly shows fear with funny faces he made. He was so scared that unlike with Gotenks-Boo he never bothered to go ssj3 with Evil Boo and later was wanting to fight him with a smile, that's how scared he was.

Old Kaioshin never recommending Gohan even after everyone was alive on earth is nonsensical, doesn't even go with your narrative. Vegeta first chosing Genki Dama then saying "this is the end" after Pure Boo saw their Genki Dama is another proof of Gohan not being above him. He was ready to die fighting boo and even asked Goku to take both him and pure Boo out. Then chosing risky solution over supposedly easy one where Gohan can one shot boo according to what you doesn't make sense. No one asking them to call Gohan but throwing whatever they can with Genki Dama plan or Gohan donating ki into Genki Dama which almost failing is another sign of narrative not implying Evil Boo > Pure Boo.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:34 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: That's because they judged him from his size. Ki can fluctuate as we see already aware in Dragon Ball. Why didn't Goku say "phew now he's ki is down we can beat him", he makes Vegeta say "hehe he shrunk quite a bit" and Goku replying to Vegeta as "We did it. This way we might be able to manage something". Their priority was to save Kids and then Goku never talked about drop in ki. Why? When he explicitly told Vegeta how Evil Boo ki is smaller, when on Kaioshin realm he talks about Pure Boo ki never going down no matter what he does, when he explicitly said that with Gohan and his friend's ki the Genki Dama is huge. Why won't he use ki here? Because he never judged him off his size. When even Vegeta thinks that he can beat him and Goku agrees to him then something is wrong. We sure know Toriyama loves the gag of smallest characters being strongest and someone joking about the height but realizing they are wrong. Even in DBS this trend is on with Omni King. No, you're making headcanons because Vegeta says he shrunk and Goku even then never uses the term Ki when he's used to using ki to measure Powers. And if you think that this implied that he's talking about ki decrease then we can assume Old Kaioshin was referring to "Most Strongest Boo" by "Most Troublesome".

The moment Goku recommends Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them that totally makes your point moot about Gohan being enough. Vegeta will obviously prefer Genki Dama if Gohan and Gotenks end up becoming burden.

What are you saying? Blowing planets is child's play in DBZ, ironically Vegeta was the first person who threatened to blow earth. No it makes no sense, all DBZ villains can blow planets that is not enough to make him fret, if we are talking about same manga then the implications are clear that if Genki Dama failed then they are screwed and everyone is doomed. Goku never implied Gohan can kill him alone. I don't think Modern Dragon Ball is that consistent, we literally see Piccolo and Gohan sensing Shenlong but don't bother checking out who's making wish even though Piccolo is has Kami in him. Modern Dragon Ball hardly uses Gotenks or Gohan so it's not good way to measure anything. Gohan is so ignorant in it that first he spends time with Future Trunks but doesn't bother asking why he's hear the whole time. Modern Dragon Ball just want to milk it with Goku and Vegeta even in latest arc. Are you telling me Gohan and Gotenks would not care about Majin Boo the guy who bested them? Sorry that doesn't make sense, they will be coming with all their anger to take revenge. With Broly they hardly know them and Whis and Beerus are always chilling on earth either way so it's not big deal to them. It's your headcanon assumption that he magically forgot his sons and would only talk about him and Vegeta where Vegeta isn't even ssj3, wrong assumption. He's talking about overall scenario and Goten, Gohan and Trunks still show interest in Boo from earth.
Genki can he interchangeable with Ki. If you divide Ki into three sets, the Yuuki and Shouki are mental state and Genki is vitality so that is same as energy. Even Manga says Ki
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P11.3
Context: Vegeta instructs the Earthlings on how to help make the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”


It's Ki not Genki here for Super Genki Dama and notice how Older Kaioshin isn't even recommending Gohan to one shot Boo and acting like even this is not enough otherwise there's no way he won't recommend an easy solution. He was the one who gave potara to Goku and powered by Gohan, it's nonsense to think he would not say "let's call Gohan to wipe him" if Gohan is above Pure Boo.
Vertical wrote:Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.



"We did it!" Did what exactly? What were they trying to do? Were they tying to make Buu small? No, they were trying to lower Buu's strength to a manageable level... and they did it. Vegeta snarks about Buu's size while Goku celebrates their success. Buu is now within reach (though the pair still initially underestimate Buu).

The end.

I'm surprised this quote is not within the opening post but is only referred to.
That doesn't mean anything, Goku never remarked about ki so what you assume is headcanon. Also according to your logic, Pure Boo > Fat Boo. Since at this point Goku never confessed that he could have beaten Fat Boo and even Vegeta thinks he can take him on. So he has to be around ssj2. It's funny how you're interpreting it that way but no one talks about his Ki going down so it's a headcanon considering both Goku and Vegeta admit their stupidity and Goku explicitly says he was trying to show off and Vegeta admits boo is far stronger. So your "We did it" point is moot.
Do you think that Goku would have judged Buu solely on his size if his ki was even higher than someone that he had admitted, only a few minutes beforehand, was someone far too strong for him and Vegeta to fight, and that they'd die if they attempted to do so? That'd be extremely out of character for him to do so, not to mention just illogical in general. For Vegeta? Sure, and with what he says, it's undeniable that he was speaking of Buu's physical size, but with Goku, it'd make no sense, and there's nothing to support that he was doing so. Even though both of them admit later that Buu is doing better than what they may have initially anticipated, that doesn't change that Goku's reaction to him implies a power drop, otherwise there's no logical reason that he'd act confident in any way given his previous fears regarding Evil Buu.

In terms of planet exploding, it is a big concern if they're not ready for it and aren't able to stop the individual in time. Look at Freeza in Super. In his final form, weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, yet he blew up the Earth within inches of Vegeta and wiped out everyone except those that Whis had shielded. Therein lies what I'm saying as far as Vegeta's potential fear. What if none of the Z Senshi are around when the evil Buu forms again, and he goes and blows up the Earth immediately upon forming. Everyone is therefore dead and the universe is doomed. That fits Vegeta's fears perfectly well without having Buu need to be more powerful than Gohan or Gotenks for it to happen. Likewise, as said, all that Goku's comment says is that he wants to prepare so that even if it is up to him and Vegeta to fight again, they'll be ready. He isn't excluding Gohan or Gotenks in the mix (and his "worse comes to worst" comment can be taken as being about them), just that he's wanting to be prepared, alongside Vegeta, to be able to fight Buu one-on-one should he appear in the future.

And no, the Genki Dama only uses genki, even with the Super Genki Dama. Sometimes, it gets shortened to ki when being discussed, but it is always just genki being actually collected. Goku specifically cries out for everyone's genki when he was collecting it to use against Buu. Even when it came to the regular Genki Dama during the Saiyan and Freeza arc, sometimes the word ki was used instead of genki, but it was still just genki being collected.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Kaboom » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:12 pm

Small side note: Vegeta mocking Pure Boo for his size doesn't mean that's why he thinks they can take him now.
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