Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:49 am

Many arguments in this thread refer to Ki as a scale for measuring Buu's strength. However, by this way you debunk your theories by yourself, as it has been shown again and again that Buu is a being far too complicaed and with no standart Ki reading. As such, you can't measure such an entity's power via ki reading, unlike many other foes in the pat and the future. I doubt that we can actually tell which Buu is stronger.

Ultimately, I will say something that might get me crucified, but I think that Innocent Buu and Super Buu (no absorbtions) are equal in power with only their personality differing, Good Buu had 40% of Innocent Buu's power, with Evil Buu 60%, Kid Buu is equal to Evil Buu, but due to South Supreme Kai still being within him and because of him going Buff prior to unleashing his pure form, I would give him an additional 20% for the sake of consistency.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Speedster » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am

The obvious narrative intent for making Buu (kid Buu) physically smaller (alongside the implicit assumption that he should have been weakened due to the removal of a powerful absorption (good Buu)) was to have contrast of emotions and subversion of expectations. Toriyama even went out of his way to achieve this effect as logically removing good Buu from Super Buu should have resulted to him reverting back to the Grey Buu we saw earlier. If Toriyama’s intent was to have an ending where Goku and Vegeta face someone far weaker than regular Super Buu and the story to be suspenseful only because the much stronger Gotenks and Gohan (who could easily take care of someone of that level of power) were out of commission, I don’t see the reason why Grey Buu would not be adequate to fulfil that role.

So why the necessity for another new form of Buu? Isn’t exactly because Toriyama wanted to show a smaller Buu so the characters get happy and hopeful that now the opponent is more manageable only to be proven utterly wrong later? After Goku said they can now manage something against this Buu, Toriyama starts proving that sentiment wrong. First Kaioshin gives kid Buu’s backstory to showcase how dangerous this new Buu is and how his power was in fact previously lowered through the Kaioshin absorptions. Then he proceeds to have kid Buu demonstrating his immense power by unleashing a planet busting attack that Goku just watches in awe, flat out stating that he and Vegeta are unable to do anything against it and they scared run away from the planet instead of attempting to stop the attack and save the planet from annihilation.

And this brings me to my next point. When Goku said they were no match for regular Super Buu’s strength he said ‘we’. Now regardless of what he meant by “we” against Super Buu, he also said something very similar, again using “we” when kid Buu unleashed his planet busting attack. Compare the two:
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? We can’t knock back something like that…!
For consistency that “we” had to be used in the same fashion. Either Goku is not counting his SSJ3 form during those statements or he does. You can’t have it both ways. This leaves two scenarios. The first is that he is just referring to their SSJ2 forms. That also means the statement inside Super Buu is irreverent to his SSJ3 power. The second is that he does count his SSJ3 power meaning that at the time his SSJ3 power was much inferior to Super Buu’s power but to kid Buu’s as well. If Goku, who was later shown in SSJ3 to rival kid Buu, could stop kid Buu’s attack at that point in time he would have attempted to do so. And that was a relatively slow-moving attack (especially compared to the earlier one that Vegeta deflected). So theoretically he had the time to transform into SSJ3 and fire his most powerful Kamehameha in order to protect the Earth. But no, Goku just chooses to run away as he couldn't do anything about it. This would then mean that him later matching kid Buu in SSJ3 was the result of Goku improving and getting stronger during the fight. Something that also ties well with what Toriyama said in BoGs about the Saiyans:
Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:40 am

Speedster wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am


For consistency that “we” had to be used in the same fashion. Either Goku is not counting his SSJ3 form during those statements or he does. You can’t have it both ways. This leaves two scenarios. The first is that he is just referring to their SSJ2 forms. That also means the statement inside Super Buu is irreverent to his SSJ3 power. The second is that he does count his SSJ3 power meaning that at the time his SSJ3 power was much inferior to Super Buu’s power but to kid Buu’s as well. If Goku, who was later shown in SSJ3 to rival kid Buu, could stop kid Buu’s attack at that point in time he would have attempted to do so. And that was a relatively slow-moving attack (especially compared to the earlier one that Vegeta deflected). So theoretically he had the time to transform into SSJ3 and fire his most powerful Kamehameha in order to protect the Earth. But no, Goku just chooses to run away as he couldn't do anything about it. This would then mean that him later matching kid Buu in SSJ3 was the result of Goku improving and getting stronger during the fight. Something that also ties well with what Toriyama said in BoGs about the Saiyans:
However, we've seen before where attacks can be too large to be deflected or blocked, but the attack itself not be as powerful as the person trying to block it. Look at Freeza with the Genki Dama, for example. Despite the fact that Freeza was completely unable to deflect or even slow it down, the attack was nowhere near strong enough to kill him, or even damage him that severely. Likewise with Cell and the Shin Ki Kou Hou. The attacks themselves were doing no appreciable damage to him whatsoever, but he still couldn't block or defend against them all the same.

So with Buu's attack, he could very well have simply realized that it was just too big of an attack (and he refers to its physical size) for them to deflect, rather than it being too powerful of an attack for them to deflect.
ahill1 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:15 am
@Darkprince410

What do you think about the point that Goku, when saying they are no match for Super Boo like this, meant their size by "like this", rather than they unfused state?
Goku was unaware of any power discrepancy between how he was inside vs. outside, and obviously didn't feel that a size issue (if that's what "like this" meant) would affect a Potara or Metamoran fusion if they used that upon escaping. So I doubt that his fears had anything to do with either some belief that they'd still be physically small upon leaving, or the reduced power they'd have if they left and remained small (since, as said, Goku didn't even know).

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:26 am

Speedster wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am
The obvious narrative intent for making Buu (kid Buu) physically smaller (alongside the implicit assumption that he should have been weakened due to the removal of a powerful absorption (good Buu)) was to have contrast of emotions and subversion of expectations. Toriyama even went out of his way to achieve this effect as logically removing good Buu from Super Buu should have resulted to him reverting back to the Grey Buu we saw earlier. If Toriyama’s intent was to have an ending where Goku and Vegeta face someone far weaker than regular Super Buu and the story to be suspenseful only because the much stronger Gotenks and Gohan (who could easily take care of someone of that level of power) were out of commission, I don’t see the reason why Grey Buu would not be adequate to fulfil that role.

So why the necessity for another new form of Buu? Isn’t exactly because Toriyama wanted to show a smaller Buu so the characters get happy and hopeful that now the opponent is more manageable only to be proven utterly wrong later? After Goku said they can now manage something against this Buu, Toriyama starts proving that sentiment wrong. First Kaioshin gives kid Buu’s backstory to showcase how dangerous this new Buu is and how his power was in fact previously lowered through the Kaioshin absorptions. Then he proceeds to have kid Buu demonstrating his immense power by unleashing a planet busting attack that Goku just watches in awe, flat out stating that he and Vegeta are unable to do anything against it and they scared run away from the planet instead of attempting to stop the attack and save the planet from annihilation.
That’s precisely the reason I think the narrative was in a very clear direction of making Pure Boo the most formidable out of them, even if it had to contradict some of the implications that have been continuously being brought up on this thread.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Desassina » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:32 am

The more I read threads like this one, the more I realize that endings such as the Majin Boo arc's shouldn't be discussed to one end, but skipped towards what the franchise wanted to continue with in Super. I mean, just ask yourselves this question: would you have discussed the ending of The Thing movie (John Carpenter's), when it was clearly left open in history for the endless debates that took place?

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:52 pm

Miracles wrote:No you aren't making any sense because you are so mixed up by crossing quotes which have absolutely no bearing on the fact that Goku stated Super Buu will outright kill him and Vegeta but said he can fight Kid Buu head up. Goku did INDEED fight Kid Buu head up and add the fact that he had enough power to wipe him out too. However, Goku stated they needed fusion for Super Buu yet stated he would fight Kid Buu cause he isn't fused anymore. Vegeta backs this up even more about Goku being able to to go head up with Kid Buu but NO ONE EVER STATED HE COULD GO HEAD UP WITH SUPER BUU. So please tell me how does your off the subject quote about Goku asking Vegeta if Gohan and Gotenks would help with the fight against Kid Buu PROVE that Kid Buu is outright stronger than Super?DESPITE the facts that Goku was able to fight kid buu but didn't want any part of Super Buu? Please tell me...
Goku HAD a form which could have killed the same being he wanted to kill with Fusion with either Gohan or Vegeta.

He preferred to try the fusion because he was keeping SSJ 3 as a last resort. He was waiting until he got no choice but to use it. He thought it would be easier if they fused. Especially when considering that he had to protect the children and his friends around.
Vegeta refused to fuse permanently, but at this point, Goku didn't know that he didn't want to fuse temporarily either. When Goku tells his lie, he has not yet proposed to merge with the fusion dance. And Vegeta certainly wouldn't have agreed if he knew Goku was able to defeat Evil Boo without fusing. That's why he lied or atleast underestimated himself. To persuade Vegeta.

You could assume he was lying because he is later seen fighting a Stronger form of Boo and holding his own. Say what you want about him being the "most difficult" it's HEAVILY implied that he is stronger - from Kaioshin's fear of him being "unpredictable" is meaningless on it's own when taking it out of context (especially considering the other 2 forms of Buu attempted to destroy the Earth as well, also the only thing Kibitoshin told Elder Kaioshin was that Boo absorbed two Kaioshins and this leads to him saying "most Difficult Boo", why would that make him say that if not implying most powerful? Why would Elder Kaioshin call Boo like that if he got weaker even though he's hardly seen him blow earth?) to Goku and Vegetas comments. Nothing stated from this point foward implies any sort of drop in power.
Darkprince410 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:05 pm
Pure Boo being Strongest isn't some Toei-only thing. They just mirrored the intentions of manga and made it obvious, it's not like Red Ribbon Army arc filler where they unnecessarily add the contradiction of Dr. Frappe being the one to make Android 8, the Manga was already over by the point they reached Kaioshin Planet fight in anime and they just made it more obvious with the info they had. Dragon Ball Forever is wrong then, simple.

We have Goku telling Kuririn that he's no match for Fat Boo if Vegeta wasn't to him telling Piccolo that he probably would have lost to him actually telling that he could have killed Boo if he tried. Also, he's not questioning, it definitely increasing and he was asking Vegeta about it. Him and Vegeta showing confidence in taking on Boo is due to the same gag Toriyama plays, like how he even told Freeza that he's smaller than he expected him to be, Vegeta did the same to Cell, it's them judging him from size. If Pure Boo ki went down then Goku would not forget to mention Ki and Kaioshins would instantly mention the Ki decrease and start celebrating like they did after seeing Evil Boo revert to base form. On the contrary, they showed opposite signs and its only your assumption that the Ki went down when no one mentioned about it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Ki can fluctuate, Toriyama's the one writing the show, if he wanted he could have made Goku comment on Pure Boo ki going down but he didn't and also, Goku loves fighting strong guys one-on-one, on Kaioshin planet he wasn't in a pinch like he was with Gohan-Boo where his main objective was to free up the kids from inside and then fight Boo. You are talking as if Goku is infallible and can't make errors in judgements even though the show has trope of someone mocking character's size and other showing opposite reaction.
Again, you are putting headcanons. If he was keeping track of battle and was celebrating with Elder Kaioshin after seeing Evil Boo revert to base then why would he get terrified after seeing Evil Boo revert to even weaker form even before Pure Boo blows up Earth? It makes no sense. Also, you can't gauge the power perfectly even if you're Goku, that's why Goku even after meeting Perfect Cell went to Karin to tell if Goku was stronger than Cell or not. Ki can fluctuate and one can't tell accurately how much power one is holding back or emitting. Kaioshin initially just underestimated Saiyans but was soon proven wrong, your examples aren't even making sense with what i am talking about.

No, Elder Kaioshin never said anything about the South Kaioshin powering him up, it's something you made up. Elder Kaioshin just asked if the Buff Form was what he turned into, again no mention of Ki increase, that's why he ended up asking if he was the Most Difficult Boo ever.

1) there maybe influence but since the source is taken out that Ki can't be his. If power source is taken out the Ki never goes up unless the source weakened him. He was just turning into Pure Boo in reverse process and doesn't stop changing at Buff Boo.

2) Goku only says that he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets that's it. That was the Perfect moment to mention Ki going down but he didn't, which means it never went down. Nope, you don't have any evidence which says directly that Pure Boo ki went down since no one talked about it, but just like how you use Goku's unwillingness to show Pure Boo's ki dropping, I can use Kaioshin's reaction to Pure Boo as the reason for his ki not going down.
3) Gotenks-Boo reversion is different, it's about the single absorptions in him splitting in 2 inside his body so obviously he will pause for a moment before changing back to Piccolo-Boo but with Good Boo, the Kaioshins were not there and Fat Boo alone was carrying their influence so it's one thing. Also, Why didn't Gotenks-Boo ki never went up to go down again?
4) we were never told that South Kaioshin powered him up and Kaioshin never singled out him about powering Boo up so it's obvious that Kaioshins weakened him. If he was Powerful than Pure Boo (which made no sense! he could have killed him but someone's nature can't lower the power. Notice how he only talks about controlling the nature when referring to Dai Kaioshin but it's only after Elder Kaioshin asked him about most difficult Boo that he answers about lowering power through absorptions. Which clearly means he was weakened by absorptions, at best the South Kaioshin had no effect on him or weakened him but definitely never powered him up.

Goku literally told Vegeta that he has been trying to kill him and fired 2 Kamehamehas for a reason. Goku explicitly stated that Pure Boo is drawing out the fight and having fun.
It's simple, if Goku is giving his all and not holding back and Pure Boo tanks the attacks and comes back everytime joking around, it means he's toying with him. That's why Goku started to regret about throwing away Potara and admitted he was showing off.

It's "Ki" which they use in Super Genki Dama that's why Kibitoshin can't teleport, it has always been Ki. It's they energy in general which we are used to. When the Manga also says Ki then it's clear you are going against the narrative.
When the manga's narrative strongly supports Evil Buu being stronger, and has nothing supporting Pure Buu being stronger, then no, it's a Toei invention that Pure Buu is the strongest.

For starters, as said before, Goku's comments on Fat Buu don't apply because it's actually said later that he was lying. With Evil Buu, that's not ever stated or even implied, so arguing that "he lied here, so he must have lied there as well" just doesn't work. And with Goku, his statement heavily implies it. Do you really believe that Goku would comment that he and Vegeta are able to manage something (and this being before the Earth was destroyed, so it wasn't the whole "we'll come up with a strategy" comment) if he sensed a level of power higher than South Kaioushin Buu, who was stronger than someone he admitted (without contradiction) was too strong for both he and Vegeta to fight? Kaioushin's entire history of sensing ki, from what we're shown, was terrible, with nearly all his fears being completely mistaken because he obviously couldn't sense ki properly. So why would his ki sensing suddenly be reliable, when beforehand it was shown to be so terrible? As for Goku with Cell, that's not a valid comparison, because Goku had nothing to go off of as far as Cell's actual strength, which is why he needed the outside source from someone who had actually been able to sense Cell putting out some level of power.

As I said, Rou Kaioushin, upon seeing Gohan Buu fail to transform after absorbing Vegetto, makes the comment that all individuals that Buu had absorbed up to that point had caused a transformation and a power up, and Kibitoshin, at the time, did not say this was wrong or inaccurate. It was only when Pure Buu's history was revealed that Kibitoshin established that this wasn't the case, but specifically that it was Dai Kaioushin that affected Buu negatively. As such, by Kibitoshin's clarification, South Kaioushin didn't affect Buu differently than normal, and what is normal, according to what is established, is that absorption increases power.

1) You're not explaining why South Kaioushin Buu appeared though. If you were correct, then he should have changed solely to Pure Buu, since there'd be no influence of South Kaioushin left within him to trigger that specific transformation. He's not going to transform without their influence in him, therefore Buu transforming into South Kaioushin Buu means there was some of his influence still within Buu.

2) Goku's comment once Pure Buu formed completely:
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
This is before he blew up the Earth, much less before Goku comments that they'll just hide out on Kaioushin's planet and come up with a strategy. He is, in a straightforward manner, saying that they can manage something against him, when beforehand he had said they'd stand no chance against Evil Buu.

3) It's still a situation of his body not transforming immediately, despite us knowing that Fusion itself breaks up immediately when it wears off. Also, why would his power go up in this situation? Gotenks was only powering him up, so Buu losing that source would only cause his power to drop. With what happened with Fat Buu, he burned through the influence of the Dai Kaioushin first, which caused the power boost (since he was the only Kaioushin weakening Buu) and then he lost power when South Kaioushin's influence burned off.

4) As mentioned above, we're told initially, without contradiction, that all absorptions made Buu stronger and caused a transformation, and then we're told that Dai Kaioushin affected him differently than normal. Since it's only Dai Kaioushin that's said to have affected him differently, then South Kaioushin affected him normally, thus causing him to grow stronger.

Goku literally tells Vegeta that he had been thinking of doing it when Vegeta suggests it, but hadn't had the chance:
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
So neither of Goku's previous Kamehameha were at full power, by his own admission. Likewise, Goku specifically indicates that his playing around started when Buu decided to not regenerate completely following Goku's second Kamehameha, and not that he was playing around the entire fight.
Goku: “That bastard…Even though he can quickly return to normal, he’s playing around by purposefully drawing it out…”
The manga has always had ki and genki used interchangeably when it came to the Genki Dama being spoken of, but at the same time, we've had characters specifically refer to Goku gathering genki for it. If it was always just ki, then there'd be no reason to ever have characters mentioning him trying to gather genki, but the manga has genki specifically being used.
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”
Why is Goku specifically asking for genki from the people of the Earth for the Genki Dama against Buu if it's just ki that it uses? The specific request for genki means that THAT is what the Genki Dama uses, and when ki is being mentioned in relation to the Genki Dama, they're meaning genki. Kibitoshin not having the energy to teleport and the man being winded fits the definition of what genki is, so a lack of that fits perfectly with why they felt the way they did.
Except you base off nothing but vague interpretations. Don't you find weird none of them mentions his power drop? Usually, when a character becomes stronger or weaker, in DBZ, this is always clearly mentioned by a power statement. Why is it not mentioned here ? Either its Vegeta talking about "Sentouryuk" or others talking about "Ki" or "power" increase or decrease.
When I see Goku's line, I wonder "You can take this guy ? Why ? Based on what ?" And the only thing I see is "Haha ! Look at his size !" It's not like it was the first time a character made an error in judgment by only paying attention at the enemy's size. Remember Kuririn when he first saw Freeza's final form, or Vegeta vs Perfect Cell. This has happened in DBZ many times over - From Freeza to Cell to Majin Boo. Goku even admitted in the beginning that Majin Boo's power is like "a lie" and we have the Kaioshin giving us a backround on how powerful this foe could potentially be.
We need to know for sure if his power has dropped. How much ? A bit ? A lot ? "We can take this guy" ! Vegeta too ? Really ? We need clarification, details.
This argument is irrelevant because Goku said Boo's power was rising even if Vegeta could sense it too. And Vegeta tells Goku that Boo has shrunk down, yet both have eyes to see it. There are plenty of times in the manga where a character says the villain's power increased while he knows the others are sensing it too. Do you realize that the Manga is written by Toriyama? He could have mentioned it if Ki dropped but he used his "lol he's small" joke again.
You assume this Boo is weaker because you interpret it this way. But I can interpret it this way : Goku lied or underestimated about Evil Boo and simply told the truth in front of this stronger Boo. And you can't prove I'm wrong because there is no mention of Boo's power decreasing. Therefore, we need a character to flat out tell us that his power has decreased.
But the story shows Vegeta and Goku mocking Pure Boo, then it pans to Kibitoshin telling us about Boo's history and how the Kaioshins weakended him from his original form and finally Boo testing his power by destorying Earth. When fusion is suggested as the best means of defeating Boo, Goku declines and decides to fight Buu on his own with "My own power" meaning Goku apparently never wanted to use SSJ3 and probably had the potential to fight Boo unfused from Vegeta for a while. Not once was reviving the boys or Gohan consider an option.
Power loss is explicitly stating to reduce Boo's power, mean he would be come stronger with the removal of the Kaioshin. No one debates this - so why are we arguing if a Buff+Dai Kaioshinn Boo is stronger than a Pure Evil one?

Also, Goku hardly took Kaioshin seriously and goes on to fight Majin Vegeta, he's not the most obedient child. Your Kaioshin argument doesn't make sense and it's literal headcanon, if he senses Evil Boo and celebrated then what makes you think he's terrified and thinking "it's over" with Pure Boo just because of bad sensing?

Kibitoshin never told Dai Kaioshin made him weak, it's only in last statement where he talked about lowering power through absorptions because Japanese word doesn't have a plural.

1) he kept on transforming that's the point, if he had stayed in buff form then It would be different but no he kept going on and transforming in reverse and the more he approached closer to his original state the more kibitoshin loses hopes. You can't access someone's ki without power source, if South Kaioshin made him powerful then removing his source should NOT MAKE HIM STRONGER.

2) Yea Goku is definitely infallible and he can't be wrong judge at all.

3) no, this "burning ki" thing is complete headcanon. I already told you that Pure heart can't make him weaker, Kaioshin never said it was the only thing to make him weak but more controllable and its after Elder Kaioshin asked him about Pure Boo being most difficult Boo that Kibitoshin states that he goes as far as lowering power through absorptions and being back to old self which means opposite process which means gaining that blocked power.

4) was Vegetto a Kaioshin? Answer this. No mention is made of South Kaioshin powering him up. Dabra already stated that they can't use Kaioshin Ki for powering up Boo's revival then on top of that we know that Kaioshins can't be powerful than any ssj so it's unlikely that they would really give a boost to Pure Boo.

Read the translation again, it states that Boo is lollygagging and Goku trying to gather ki in one minute is again no different from Piccolo doing Makankosappo or Cell gathering enough Ki to destroy solar system.

Super Genki Dama uses every last bit of Ki till exhaustion of earthlings and that's a fact in manga. If Gohan is alone capable of beating Pure Boo, they can call him anytime, you're going against narrative, you're telling me Goku will remind Vegeta of Gohan's ki in Genki-Dama but not ask for his help if he's alone capable of beating him? I am sorry that doesn't make even a little sense. That's like Final form Freeza being weaker than Reacoom but Goku not asking Gohan to beat Freeza and taking beatings from him till he overpowered him by going Ssj.
Speedster wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am
The obvious narrative intent for making Buu (kid Buu) physically smaller (alongside the implicit assumption that he should have been weakened due to the removal of a powerful absorption (good Buu)) was to have contrast of emotions and subversion of expectations. Toriyama even went out of his way to achieve this effect as logically removing good Buu from Super Buu should have resulted to him reverting back to the Grey Buu we saw earlier. If Toriyama’s intent was to have an ending where Goku and Vegeta face someone far weaker than regular Super Buu and the story to be suspenseful only because the much stronger Gotenks and Gohan (who could easily take care of someone of that level of power) were out of commission, I don’t see the reason why Grey Buu would not be adequate to fulfil that role.

So why the necessity for another new form of Buu? Isn’t exactly because Toriyama wanted to show a smaller Buu so the characters get happy and hopeful that now the opponent is more manageable only to be proven utterly wrong later? After Goku said they can now manage something against this Buu, Toriyama starts proving that sentiment wrong. First Kaioshin gives kid Buu’s backstory to showcase how dangerous this new Buu is and how his power was in fact previously lowered through the Kaioshin absorptions. Then he proceeds to have kid Buu demonstrating his immense power by unleashing a planet busting attack that Goku just watches in awe, flat out stating that he and Vegeta are unable to do anything against it and they scared run away from the planet instead of attempting to stop the attack and save the planet from annihilation.

And this brings me to my next point. When Goku said they were no match for regular Super Buu’s strength he said ‘we’. Now regardless of what he meant by “we” against Super Buu, he also said something very similar, again using “we” when kid Buu unleashed his planet busting attack. Compare the two:
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? We can’t knock back something like that…!
For consistency that “we” had to be used in the same fashion. Either Goku is not counting his SSJ3 form during those statements or he does. You can’t have it both ways. This leaves two scenarios. The first is that he is just referring to their SSJ2 forms. That also means the statement inside Super Buu is irreverent to his SSJ3 power. The second is that he does count his SSJ3 power meaning that at the time his SSJ3 power was much inferior to Super Buu’s power but to kid Buu’s as well. If Goku, who was later shown in SSJ3 to rival kid Buu, could stop kid Buu’s attack at that point in time he would have attempted to do so. And that was a relatively slow-moving attack (especially compared to the earlier one that Vegeta deflected). So theoretically he had the time to transform into SSJ3 and fire his most powerful Kamehameha in order to protect the Earth. But no, Goku just chooses to run away as he couldn't do anything about it. This would then mean that him later matching kid Buu in SSJ3 was the result of Goku improving and getting stronger during the fight. Something that also ties well with what Toriyama said in BoGs about the Saiyans:
Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.
This guy gets it :clap: .
Interviewer : In several parts of Dragon Ball, the most powerful character is actually the smallest, cutest and youngest-looking. For example, young Goku, or Freeza and Majin Boo in their final transformations. Is that because kids are small and cute, but also want to be powerful?
Toriyama : I wanted to go against people’s expectation that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger. I consciously tried to switch between telling a straightforward story and telling one that was unconventional and contradictory.


I love how no matter how much evidence is provided they won't admit that Pure Boo is strongest unfused Boo.

Akira Toriyama Confirms his direct intentions of have the "small and weak looking characters be the strongest" which is affirmed by how he showed Goku and Vegeta underestimating Pure Boo only to fall on their heads. He didn't change his thoughts as he himself says it's been 30 years and he still holds the same idea:
"Goku and Arale1 both have a huge gap between how they look and what they’re capable of.

=> Yeah. I prefer to put most of the focus on the story, so I gave them plain designs, but beyond that I think it boils down to the idea that it’s more interesting to have the weak-looking, plain guys be strong. With Goku, he started out just being a straight-up monkey. Then I thought about it some more and made him a human, but Torishima-san said that he needed to have something to set him apart, so I gave him a tail… but it just kept getting in the way. (laughs)

From the midpoint onward, it became routine for the enemies to transform.

=> It all started with Freeza. I didn’t start out with any plans to have him transform of course, but midway through I thought it might be cool to make it look like a bluff and then have him transform for real. Probably at that point I also thought of giving him a sleek design in the end. I’m in the habit of giving characters progressively more complex and tough-looking forms, then finally making them really sleek. After all, it’s awful drawing them once they get all complex. (laughs) Complex guys are terrible when you have to draw them for weeks on end… Cell was a ton of work, with those darn spots of his. (laughs)

One part of the series’ version of the world are all of the gods that turn up. The fact that they’re also aliens is distinctive as well.

=> I always turn to God in times of trouble. (laughs) Gods and aliens and other unknown beings like that make it easy to craft the story. After all, gods can do practically anything. I have my gods be straightforward and not too fussy, so that children can feel comfortable with them. The reason I give gods attendants… Well, I guess it’s because important people always need butlers, and it’s easy to develop the story through conversations.

So they’re mainly there to provide exposition?

Yeah, like with Kibito I gave him a stern face, but it turns out he’s really nothing special. Pretty much all of my strong-looking guys turn out to be weak. I guess I like inverting expectations."
(Taking a quote from DBMagnumExpert post)
Another example is Omni King from Dragon Ball Super.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:26 am
Speedster wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am
The obvious narrative intent for making Buu (kid Buu) physically smaller (alongside the implicit assumption that he should have been weakened due to the removal of a powerful absorption (good Buu)) was to have contrast of emotions and subversion of expectations. Toriyama even went out of his way to achieve this effect as logically removing good Buu from Super Buu should have resulted to him reverting back to the Grey Buu we saw earlier. If Toriyama’s intent was to have an ending where Goku and Vegeta face someone far weaker than regular Super Buu and the story to be suspenseful only because the much stronger Gotenks and Gohan (who could easily take care of someone of that level of power) were out of commission, I don’t see the reason why Grey Buu would not be adequate to fulfil that role.

So why the necessity for another new form of Buu? Isn’t exactly because Toriyama wanted to show a smaller Buu so the characters get happy and hopeful that now the opponent is more manageable only to be proven utterly wrong later? After Goku said they can now manage something against this Buu, Toriyama starts proving that sentiment wrong. First Kaioshin gives kid Buu’s backstory to showcase how dangerous this new Buu is and how his power was in fact previously lowered through the Kaioshin absorptions. Then he proceeds to have kid Buu demonstrating his immense power by unleashing a planet busting attack that Goku just watches in awe, flat out stating that he and Vegeta are unable to do anything against it and they scared run away from the planet instead of attempting to stop the attack and save the planet from annihilation.
That’s precisely the reason I think the narrative was in a very clear direction of making Pure Boo the most formidable out of them, even if it had to contradict some of the implications that have been continuously being brought up on this thread.
It's just that the fandom assumes Gohan is above Pure Boo for no reason and keeps him on some pedestal and thinking it's hard to believe that Toriyama would make a villain stronger than him. This debate is unnecessarily going on for decades, it's obvious that Pure Boo has to be and is the Strongest Unfused Boo, no one would introduce one of the weaker forms for final battle in a Shonen about power escalations. That's like Cell in Perfect form becoming weaker than Androids for no reason.
Desassina wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:32 am
The more I read threads like this one, the more I realize that endings such as the Majin Boo arc's shouldn't be discussed to one end, but skipped towards what the franchise wanted to continue with in Super. I mean, just ask yourselves this question: would you have discussed the ending of The Thing movie (John Carpenter's), when it was clearly left open in history for the endless debates that took place?
No, it's unnecessary debate. Even if someone invents time machine and go back to toriyama in 1995 to ask him the most strongest unfused boo in Dragon Ball manga, he will 200% say Pure Boo, 9/10 implications support that claim Even in manga.

This theory of Toriyama making there Boos:
"Most Difficult", "Strongest unfused" and "strongest" is nonsensical. He's a simple storyteller, it's obvious that he loves to draw strongest forms in most smallest state. Pure Boo > Evil Boo > early Majin Boo .
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:35 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:52 pm
Miracles wrote:No you aren't making any sense because you are so mixed up by crossing quotes which have absolutely no bearing on the fact that Goku stated Super Buu will outright kill him and Vegeta but said he can fight Kid Buu head up. Goku did INDEED fight Kid Buu head up and add the fact that he had enough power to wipe him out too. However, Goku stated they needed fusion for Super Buu yet stated he would fight Kid Buu cause he isn't fused anymore. Vegeta backs this up even more about Goku being able to to go head up with Kid Buu but NO ONE EVER STATED HE COULD GO HEAD UP WITH SUPER BUU. So please tell me how does your off the subject quote about Goku asking Vegeta if Gohan and Gotenks would help with the fight against Kid Buu PROVE that Kid Buu is outright stronger than Super?DESPITE the facts that Goku was able to fight kid buu but didn't want any part of Super Buu? Please tell me...
Goku HAD a form which could have killed the same being he wanted to kill with Fusion with either Gohan or Vegeta.

He preferred to try the fusion because he was keeping SSJ 3 as a last resort. He was waiting until he got no choice but to use it. He thought it would be easier if they fused. Especially when considering that he had to protect the children and his friends around.
Vegeta refused to fuse permanently, but at this point, Goku didn't know that he didn't want to fuse temporarily either. When Goku tells his lie, he has not yet proposed to merge with the fusion dance. And Vegeta certainly wouldn't have agreed if he knew Goku was able to defeat Evil Boo without fusing. That's why he lied or atleast underestimated himself. To persuade Vegeta.

You could assume he was lying because he is later seen fighting a Stronger form of Boo and holding his own. Say what you want about him being the "most difficult" it's HEAVILY implied that he is stronger - from Kaioshin's fear of him being "unpredictable" is meaningless on it's own when taking it out of context (especially considering the other 2 forms of Buu attempted to destroy the Earth as well, also the only thing Kibitoshin told Elder Kaioshin was that Boo absorbed two Kaioshins and this leads to him saying "most Difficult Boo", why would that make him say that if not implying most powerful? Why would Elder Kaioshin call Boo like that if he got weaker even though he's hardly seen him blow earth?) to Goku and Vegetas comments. Nothing stated from this point foward implies any sort of drop in power.
You keep giving out headcanon. Your assumptions and reasons about Goku being able to kill Super Buu with SSJ3 is not in the story. The complete opposite of what you makeup is in the narrative however.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:00 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:52 pm

Except you base off nothing but vague interpretations. Don't you find weird none of them mentions his power drop? Usually, when a character becomes stronger or weaker, in DBZ, this is always clearly mentioned by a power statement. Why is it not mentioned here ? Either its Vegeta talking about "Sentouryuk" or others talking about "Ki" or "power" increase or decrease.
When I see Goku's line, I wonder "You can take this guy ? Why ? Based on what ?" And the only thing I see is "Haha ! Look at his size !" It's not like it was the first time a character made an error in judgment by only paying attention at the enemy's size. Remember Kuririn when he first saw Freeza's final form, or Vegeta vs Perfect Cell. This has happened in DBZ many times over - From Freeza to Cell to Majin Boo. Goku even admitted in the beginning that Majin Boo's power is like "a lie" and we have the Kaioshin giving us a backround on how powerful this foe could potentially be.
We need to know for sure if his power has dropped. How much ? A bit ? A lot ? "We can take this guy" ! Vegeta too ? Really ? We need clarification, details.
This argument is irrelevant because Goku said Boo's power was rising even if Vegeta could sense it too. And Vegeta tells Goku that Boo has shrunk down, yet both have eyes to see it. There are plenty of times in the manga where a character says the villain's power increased while he knows the others are sensing it too. Do you realize that the Manga is written by Toriyama? He could have mentioned it if Ki dropped but he used his "lol he's small" joke again.
You assume this Boo is weaker because you interpret it this way. But I can interpret it this way : Goku lied or underestimated about Evil Boo and simply told the truth in front of this stronger Boo. And you can't prove I'm wrong because there is no mention of Boo's power decreasing. Therefore, we need a character to flat out tell us that his power has decreased.
But the story shows Vegeta and Goku mocking Pure Boo, then it pans to Kibitoshin telling us about Boo's history and how the Kaioshins weakended him from his original form and finally Boo testing his power by destorying Earth. When fusion is suggested as the best means of defeating Boo, Goku declines and decides to fight Buu on his own with "My own power" meaning Goku apparently never wanted to use SSJ3 and probably had the potential to fight Boo unfused from Vegeta for a while. Not once was reviving the boys or Gohan consider an option.
Power loss is explicitly stating to reduce Boo's power, mean he would be come stronger with the removal of the Kaioshin. No one debates this - so why are we arguing if a Buff+Dai Kaioshinn Boo is stronger than a Pure Evil one?

Also, Goku hardly took Kaioshin seriously and goes on to fight Majin Vegeta, he's not the most obedient child. Your Kaioshin argument doesn't make sense and it's literal headcanon, if he senses Evil Boo and celebrated then what makes you think he's terrified and thinking "it's over" with Pure Boo just because of bad sensing?

Kibitoshin never told Dai Kaioshin made him weak, it's only in last statement where he talked about lowering power through absorptions because Japanese word doesn't have a plural.

1) he kept on transforming that's the point, if he had stayed in buff form then It would be different but no he kept going on and transforming in reverse and the more he approached closer to his original state the more kibitoshin loses hopes. You can't access someone's ki without power source, if South Kaioshin made him powerful then removing his source should NOT MAKE HIM STRONGER.

2) Yea Goku is definitely infallible and he can't be wrong judge at all.

3) no, this "burning ki" thing is complete headcanon. I already told you that Pure heart can't make him weaker, Kaioshin never said it was the only thing to make him weak but more controllable and its after Elder Kaioshin asked him about Pure Boo being most difficult Boo that Kibitoshin states that he goes as far as lowering power through absorptions and being back to old self which means opposite process which means gaining that blocked power.

4) was Vegetto a Kaioshin? Answer this. No mention is made of South Kaioshin powering him up. Dabra already stated that they can't use Kaioshin Ki for powering up Boo's revival then on top of that we know that Kaioshins can't be powerful than any ssj so it's unlikely that they would really give a boost to Pure Boo.

Read the translation again, it states that Boo is lollygagging and Goku trying to gather ki in one minute is again no different from Piccolo doing Makankosappo or Cell gathering enough Ki to destroy solar system.

Super Genki Dama uses every last bit of Ki till exhaustion of earthlings and that's a fact in manga. If Gohan is alone capable of beating Pure Boo, they can call him anytime, you're going against narrative, you're telling me Goku will remind Vegeta of Gohan's ki in Genki-Dama but not ask for his help if he's alone capable of beating him? I am sorry that doesn't make even a little sense. That's like Final form Freeza being weaker than Reacoom but Goku not asking Gohan to beat Freeza and taking beatings from him till he overpowered him by going Ssj.

You're basing your arguments on vague interpretations too, so it's hypocritical to just chalk mine up to being vague or being head canon. Goku was elated that Buu was now in a state to where he thought they might be able to manage something, and there's nothing stating or suggesting that he's judging off Buu's physical appearance. Vegeta is, yes, but that's Vegeta. Goku has not shown any tendency to judge based on someone's physical appearance if he's able to sense their ki, and he can sense Buu's. His "like a lie" comment doesn't hold weight here because he establishes later that he was lying when he was making those overall statements.

Why would Goku wanting to fight Pure Buu with Super Saiyan 3 then make his earlier statement about being no match for Evil Buu suddenly not include Super Saiyan 3? That makes no sense. It's far simpler to look at it that he wanted to now because Buu was finally weak enough to where he wouldn't need to fuse to have a chance against him, whereas before he knew he stood no chance.

Look at the quote in question. It specifically says that Buu gaining a heart is what dropped his power, and, in turn, it is the Dai Kaioushin that gave him that heart. Therefore, the Dai Kaioushin's influence was the only thing that affected Buu negatively, and therefore the South Kaioushin didn't affect him any differently than normal.

1) He remained in the form long enough for it to be specifically noted that Buu was in the same form that he took when he absorbed the South Kaioushin, and for Vegeta to comment that he was beginning another transformation. Besides, it wouldn't matter whether he stayed in the form for awhile or not, the fact remains that he did change to that form, when he shouldn't have if there was none of the South Kaioushin's influence still within him.

2) He's still got a far better track record than Kaioushin/Kibitoshin does, who up to that point had been wrong at almost every turn when it came to judging strength or making decisions based on judging strength.

3) It's the only explanation available for the appearance of the South Kaioushin Buu, and the quote specifically says that the heart he gained through absorption is what made him weaker. Since only the Dai Kaioushin is said to have given him a heart when absorbing him, then South Kaioushin didn't, and therefore he didn't affect Buu differently.

4) Vegetto's fusion wore off because of the time limit (established in Super, so regardless of your feelings, it's a non-factor here). As for the rest, we don't know why Kaioushin can't be used for reviving Buu. It's not expressly said that his ki is incompatible or anything of the sort, and it could just as easily be that they couldn't use him because he didn't have near enough power to offer anything worthwhile.

The translation says that he was playing around and could have pulled himself back together (from the Kamehameha Goku had fired on him moments before) but was dragging it out intentionally. As such, that is the earliest we can conclude with any level of certainty that Buu was playing around. Before then it'd be baseless assumption. As for the ki blast, there's no evidence to that. Goku says he needs the minute to gather his power back to full, so all we can conclude is that it's a blast at full power, not one exceeding his maximum.

The manga clearly says he is gathering Genki, and the use of ki at other points is clearly just truncating it down for the sake of simplicity. If it were just ki used in general, there'd be no need to ever bring up genki specifically, yet we have Goku bringing it up specifically in regards to what he's having people generate. As for bringing Gohan up, no, it's not going against narrative, as it's clearly and readily established why they're using the Genki Dama. Not because it's their only option, but simply because Vegeta feels that the people of the Earth need to be involved in their own safety for once. This is the only reason indicated (and more than once, I should add) as to why they didn't bring Gohan up, so assuming otherwise is what is actually going against the narrative.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 am

Miracles wrote: You keep giving out headcanon. Your assumptions and reasons about Goku being able to kill Super Buu with SSJ3 is not in the story. The complete opposite of what you makeup is in the narrative however.
I am not saying Goku can kill Evil Boo but just that he was trying to persuade Vegeta, at that time we were still under the impression that Goku can't kill any Boo. Your assumption of Pure Boo being above Evil Boo is also opposite.
Darkprince410 wrote: You're basing your arguments on vague interpretations too, so it's hypocritical to just chalk mine up to being vague or being head canon. Goku was elated that Buu was now in a state to where he thought they might be able to manage something, and there's nothing stating or suggesting that he's judging off Buu's physical appearance. Vegeta is, yes, but that's Vegeta. Goku has not shown any tendency to judge based on someone's physical appearance if he's able to sense their ki, and he can sense Buu's. His "like a lie" comment doesn't hold weight here because he establishes later that he was lying when he was making those overall statements.

Why would Goku wanting to fight Pure Buu with Super Saiyan 3 then make his earlier statement about being no match for Evil Buu suddenly not include Super Saiyan 3? That makes no sense. It's far simpler to look at it that he wanted to now because Buu was finally weak enough to where he wouldn't need to fuse to have a chance against him, whereas before he knew he stood no chance.

Look at the quote in question. It specifically says that Buu gaining a heart is what dropped his power, and, in turn, it is the Dai Kaioushin that gave him that heart. Therefore, the Dai Kaioushin's influence was the only thing that affected Buu negatively, and therefore the South Kaioushin didn't affect him any differently than normal.

1) He remained in the form long enough for it to be specifically noted that Buu was in the same form that he took when he absorbed the South Kaioushin, and for Vegeta to comment that he was beginning another transformation. Besides, it wouldn't matter whether he stayed in the form for awhile or not, the fact remains that he did change to that form, when he shouldn't have if there was none of the South Kaioushin's influence still within him.

2) He's still got a far better track record than Kaioushin/Kibitoshin does, who up to that point had been wrong at almost every turn when it came to judging strength or making decisions based on judging strength.

3) It's the only explanation available for the appearance of the South Kaioushin Buu, and the quote specifically says that the heart he gained through absorption is what made him weaker. Since only the Dai Kaioushin is said to have given him a heart when absorbing him, then South Kaioushin didn't, and therefore he didn't affect Buu differently.

4) Vegetto's fusion wore off because of the time limit (established in Super, so regardless of your feelings, it's a non-factor here). As for the rest, we don't know why Kaioushin can't be used for reviving Buu. It's not expressly said that his ki is incompatible or anything of the sort, and it could just as easily be that they couldn't use him because he didn't have near enough power to offer anything worthwhile.

The translation says that he was playing around and could have pulled himself back together (from the Kamehameha Goku had fired on him moments before) but was dragging it out intentionally. As such, that is the earliest we can conclude with any level of certainty that Buu was playing around. Before then it'd be baseless assumption. As for the ki blast, there's no evidence to that. Goku says he needs the minute to gather his power back to full, so all we can conclude is that it's a blast at full power, not one exceeding his maximum.

The manga clearly says he is gathering Genki, and the use of ki at other points is clearly just truncating it down for the sake of simplicity. If it were just ki used in general, there'd be no need to ever bring up genki specifically, yet we have Goku bringing it up specifically in regards to what he's having people generate. As for bringing Gohan up, no, it's not going against narrative, as it's clearly and readily established why they're using the Genki Dama. Not because it's their only option, but simply because Vegeta feels that the people of the Earth need to be involved in their own safety for once. This is the only reason indicated (and more than once, I should add) as to why they didn't bring Gohan up, so assuming otherwise is what is actually going against the narrative.
Again, Goku has gag expression for 3 of 4 panels. That doesn't show any feeling of being scared, Infact he was smiling and ready to take on Evil Boo before Vegeta removed Good Boo. If Goku was judging off ki then he could have said "Yea his ki is even lower than last boo" but no it wasn't anything. Not only them, but dende and Kaioshin also don't comment on him going weaker. Why would Boo's ki going down make Elder Kaioshin say he's the most difficult Boo?

Goku wanting to fight Pure Boo alone isn't a scale to measure Evil Boo's superiority over Pure Boo since either way he admits that he was trying to act cool when taking on Boo and Potara was better.

You are telling me no one would bother to call Gohan to finish off Boo but give their 2 cents on Genki-Dama plan? No its not possible, Elder Kaioshin has shown to be a good judge of situation and powered up Gohan and gave potara, you're telling me someone like him won't ask to let supposedly stronger Gohan finish him even though Genki-Dama almost fail? Because Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan that's why after almost failing Genki-Dama, no one bothers to recommend Gohan

Again,
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"



These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for. You're just making up any possible headcanon for Evil Boo being weaker despite narrative saying something else. You're totally ignoring the fact that Goku and Vegeta underestimated him a lot.
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Nothing about that implied Dai Kaioshin making him strong. Kibitoshin is clearly implying that Pure Boo has gained blocked powers and clearly stronger than Evil Boo.
1) You are going against the logic, him feeding off South Kaioshin absorbed Ki right after his source is cut off is bad assumption considering how Dabra explicitly told that they can't use Ki from Kaioshins, which means they affect Boo negatively.

2) At this point Kibitoshin were keeping track of everything, him fretting just because Evil Boo got weaker doesn't make sense. You're just applying one headcanon after next.

3) you can't say it's single absorption when there's no plural word in Japanese, and that's why herms added the letter to make it plural. It's never implied that only one of them weakened him, all he said was Dai Kaioshin made him controllable and its only after Elder Kaioshin asked about him being the most difficult boo that he tells about the power he lowered by absorbing gods is back to his original self.
4) no, that's a, bad retcon. Nothing in original manga suggests that it took an hours, i mean what part of it looks long? Manga Vegetto hardly took time in doing things. Again using headcanons, do you realize that they originally planned to Take Ki from weaker humans than Kaioshins in Tenkaichi Budokai? , it's obviously because of Kaioshin ki either making him weaker or not making any difference.

You are mixing up two statements for no reason, Goku originally said he needs to gather Ki for 60 seconds and after 60 seconds he keeps realizing that it's not enough, it's just him gathering as much ki as he can. Either way Goku admits his inferiority to Boo and told he needs to train to catch up to him so it's a fact that he couldn't have killed him.

They started using the term "take as much ki" and this time the attack wasn't like older one where a little bit of Ki is taken. Again it's Ki, Kaio also said how its an attack based on taking energy from living things, them almost failing after taking Gohan's Ki is a clear indication of narrative. Vegeta is not dumb enough to let Pure Boo beat him to death, ask Goku to take both him and boo out with Genki-Dama and rely on begging people to give energy despite no one listening to him. Genki Dama is always a last resort, Goku himself thought that at the very least they need Gohan AND Gotenks to fight together with them, which clearly tells he's above Gohan. There's no reason to ask Gotenks when one is enough and he doesn't even imply anything like "Gohan can beat him for us alone", as i told you are just reaching out and only interpretating one thing and not looking at it objectively.

The narrative makes no sense with Gohan > Kid Boo which all resulted because toriyama wasn't explicit enough with "most difficult boo" thing. It's obvious he meant the most strongest that's why :
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t-have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”


Elder Kaioshin who powered up Gohan, saw him and never bothered to call Gohan. Same with dende who was attentive in giving ideas to kill boo. Elder Kaioshin has been shown to take preemptive measures like Giving Goku Potara, after seeing Pure Boo asking Kibitoshin to give Goku and Vegeta potara too, you are telling me he won't bother calling supposedly stronger Gohan to one shot Boo?
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:02 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 am

Again, Goku has gag expression for 3 of 4 panels. That doesn't show any feeling of being scared, Infact he was smiling and ready to take on Evil Boo before Vegeta removed Good Boo. If Goku was judging off ki then he could have said "Yea his ki is even lower than last boo" but no it wasn't anything. Not only them, but dende and Kaioshin also don't comment on him going weaker. Why would Boo's ki going down make Elder Kaioshin say he's the most difficult Boo?

Goku wanting to fight Pure Boo alone isn't a scale to measure Evil Boo's superiority over Pure Boo since either way he admits that he was trying to act cool when taking on Boo and Potara was better.

You are telling me no one would bother to call Gohan to finish off Boo but give their 2 cents on Genki-Dama plan? No its not possible, Elder Kaioshin has shown to be a good judge of situation and powered up Gohan and gave potara, you're telling me someone like him won't ask to let supposedly stronger Gohan finish him even though Genki-Dama almost fail? Because Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan that's why after almost failing Genki-Dama, no one bothers to recommend Gohan

Again,
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"



These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for. You're just making up any possible headcanon for Evil Boo being weaker despite narrative saying something else. You're totally ignoring the fact that Goku and Vegeta underestimated him a lot.
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Nothing about that implied Dai Kaioshin making him strong. Kibitoshin is clearly implying that Pure Boo has gained blocked powers and clearly stronger than Evil Boo.
1) You are going against the logic, him feeding off South Kaioshin absorbed Ki right after his source is cut off is bad assumption considering how Dabra explicitly told that they can't use Ki from Kaioshins, which means they affect Boo negatively.

2) At this point Kibitoshin were keeping track of everything, him fretting just because Evil Boo got weaker doesn't make sense. You're just applying one headcanon after next.

3) you can't say it's single absorption when there's no plural word in Japanese, and that's why herms added the letter to make it plural. It's never implied that only one of them weakened him, all he said was Dai Kaioshin made him controllable and its only after Elder Kaioshin asked about him being the most difficult boo that he tells about the power he lowered by absorbing gods is back to his original self.
4) no, that's a, bad retcon. Nothing in original manga suggests that it took an hours, i mean what part of it looks long? Manga Vegetto hardly took time in doing things. Again using headcanons, do you realize that they originally planned to Take Ki from weaker humans than Kaioshins in Tenkaichi Budokai? , it's obviously because of Kaioshin ki either making him weaker or not making any difference.

You are mixing up two statements for no reason, Goku originally said he needs to gather Ki for 60 seconds and after 60 seconds he keeps realizing that it's not enough, it's just him gathering as much ki as he can. Either way Goku admits his inferiority to Boo and told he needs to train to catch up to him so it's a fact that he couldn't have killed him.

They started using the term "take as much ki" and this time the attack wasn't like older one where a little bit of Ki is taken. Again it's Ki, Kaio also said how its an attack based on taking energy from living things, them almost failing after taking Gohan's Ki is a clear indication of narrative. Vegeta is not dumb enough to let Pure Boo beat him to death, ask Goku to take both him and boo out with Genki-Dama and rely on begging people to give energy despite no one listening to him. Genki Dama is always a last resort, Goku himself thought that at the very least they need Gohan AND Gotenks to fight together with them, which clearly tells he's above Gohan. There's no reason to ask Gotenks when one is enough and he doesn't even imply anything like "Gohan can beat him for us alone", as i told you are just reaching out and only interpretating one thing and not looking at it objectively.

The narrative makes no sense with Gohan > Kid Boo which all resulted because toriyama wasn't explicit enough with "most difficult boo" thing. It's obvious he meant the most strongest that's why :
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t-have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”


Elder Kaioshin who powered up Gohan, saw him and never bothered to call Gohan. Same with dende who was attentive in giving ideas to kill boo. Elder Kaioshin has been shown to take preemptive measures like Giving Goku Potara, after seeing Pure Boo asking Kibitoshin to give Goku and Vegeta potara too, you are telling me he won't bother calling supposedly stronger Gohan to one shot Boo?
What gag expressions? There's absolutely no gag expressions or anything from Goku during that entire course of events, and no, he wouldn't have necessarily said that even if he sensed it, because what he does state is implication enough, especially when you combine it with what he previously said inside Buu.

To take a page from your book, these two statements tell the story:
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
The first one is right after they managed to revert Buu to his base Evil Buu form. His power has dropped significantly, and Goku is elated that they're "almost there". Then, upon Buu reverting down to Pure Buu, Goku is elated once again and proclaiming "We did it!" (indicating success) and that they might be able to manage something. What were his two goals with Buu during that entire ordeal? Get Gohan and the others to safety and weaken Buu to where they can manage something without fusing. They had already got Gohan and the others to safety before he made that comment, so his elated "We did it!" had to have been in response to his only other goal, which was weaken Buu further than they had with Evil Buu.

Yes, Goku admits that he thought he could do better and that the Potara would have made an easy win, but the fact remains that he still maintained and believed he could defeat Pure Buu on his own, when he was too scared to even entertain the idea of trying to fight Evil Buu.

By that point in the story, Goku and Vegeta were ignoring the ideas Rou Kaioushin was suggesting, so why bother making another that they'd just as likely ignore anyway.

Kibitoshin readily states in that very dialogue that it's the heart that Buu obtained through absorption that weakened him, and in turn it is established that he gained said heart from absorbing Dai Kaioushin. Combine this with the earlier established statement that absorbing people made Buu stronger and forced a transformation gives us no logical alternative but to accept that the South Kaioushin made him stronger. We are given the "normal" end results of absorption, and then told by the same person who didn't refute the rules on the normal end results that there was one exception. You cannot conclude that there were multiple exceptions then when it isn't stated or implied.

1) Again, we aren't told WHY they couldn't use Kaioushin's ki. It is expressly told to us that one absorption affected Buu differently than the norm, with nothing stated or implied that any other absorption also failed to affect Buu normally.

2) This is the same Kaioushin that panicked over Pui Pui being a serious threat, despite having seen Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power only minutes before. He is a terrible judge of strength, and he's shown that repeatedly.

3) You can't say it's plural either for the same reason. We are expressly told though that Buu's power diminished when he gained his heart, and in that same backstory we're told that he gained a heart through absorbing Dai Kaioushin.

4) Doesn't matter whether you consider it a bad retcon or not. It is what is stated to have caused the fusion to separate, so whether you want to accept it as that or not is irrelevant. Likewise, we don't even know in what form Dabra senses power, so his judgment isn't necessarily sound either. After all, Saiyans cannot access their Super Saiyan power while in their base form, yet he dismissed Piccolo in favor of the base Saiyans when bringing in three of them.

I'm not mixing up two statements. I'm going by what is simply said. Vegeta brings up Goku finishing Buu using "all his might" and then Goku later talks about gathering ki to get him up to full power. Both of those are setting a finite limit as to what Goku is going for, which is his full power. Not sitting there charging up an attack beyond the limits of his strength, just a blast that was his full power.

Literally none of that counters that it's just genki they're talking about when it comes to the Genki Dama, with the only difference between the one in the Buu arc vs. the old ones being that the Buu arc one took that maximum amount of genki that could be donated, while the old one simply involved what ambient genki that could be drawn without requesting donation. Them using the word "ki" rather than genki is clearly just there for truncation purposes (it'd be like just using the word "fruit" instead of specifically saying "pineapple", when speaking of a situation involving pineapples specifically). As said, the fact that Goku specifically asks for genki donations during that ordeal establishes that it's genki they're after.

Regardless of what you believe, Vegeta gave his reason for the Genki Dama, and that is the only reason we have to work with. Any other reason that you may assume that he had is unsupported and unsubstantiated. He wanted the people of the Earth to handle their own protection for once and not rely on the likes of Goku and the others to do it for them. In fact, bringing Gohan up there would go completely against what his established reason was, and it's not like he wouldn't say that Gohan or Gotenks wasn't strong enough to handle Buu if he felt they weren't.

The narrative fits perfectly with Gohan being stronger than Pure Buu and that Evil Buu was likewise more powerful. As for "most troublesome", Kibitoshin himself gives the very reasons why he's the most troublesome in response to Rou Kaioushin's statement, and it's all related to his being pure evil and uncontrollable, not his strength.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:48 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 am
Miracles wrote: You keep giving out headcanon. Your assumptions and reasons about Goku being able to kill Super Buu with SSJ3 is not in the story. The complete opposite of what you makeup is in the narrative however.
I am not saying Goku can kill Evil Boo but just that he was trying to persuade Vegeta, at that time we were still under the impression that Goku can't kill any Boo. Your assumption of Pure Boo being above Evil Boo is also opposite.
It isn't. Goku outright stated Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. This is when he had SSJ3 too. So he wanted to fuse instead. Goku didn't want to fuse against Kid Buu and wanted to fight him one on one and DID that. That is what the story stated, showing that Super Buu > Kid Buu. However you falsely claim We were led to believe that Goku couldn't kill any Buu up to the Super Buu statement. Despite the fact that It was still up for debate against fat buu who would of won if Goku went all out using SSJ3 [Goku and Piccolo dialogue]. The outcome of the match was all assumption, especially since Goku wanted the kids to fight and be the savior of the earth. However, it was stated later that Goku could of killed Fat Buu and could of wasted Kid Buu with full power of SSJ3. However, Goku being able to beat Super Buu was never stated but the opposite happened with Goku outright saying Super Buu would destroy him. So your stance does not work. The story still disproves your assumptions.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:40 am

I've always found arguments based on undermining the sincerity of Goku's statements a bit of a desperate attempt to find support for a pre-conceived claim, rather than looking at the matter objectively with no preference of outcome.

If you do that, you can only arrive at the conclusion that Super Buu is much stronger than Kid Buu.

I do understand that the notion of Kid Buu being the strongest is quite ingrained in many people, especially from Europe where there was really nothing to confront the dubbed, filler-ridden anime with. But you can't just go on ignoring evidence only to preserve what you feel more comfortable with.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Kaboom » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:33 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:40 am
I've always found arguments based on undermining the sincerity of Goku's statements a bit of a desperate attempt to find support for a pre-conceived claim, rather than looking at the matter objectively with no preference of outcome.
That's kind of the crux of this, isn't it? If your argument for something requires belief that a prominent character just spends the majority of the arc making false statements without the reader actually being told they're false... then something's pretty wrong.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:02 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 am

Again, Goku has gag expression for 3 of 4 panels. That doesn't show any feeling of being scared, Infact he was smiling and ready to take on Evil Boo before Vegeta removed Good Boo. If Goku was judging off ki then he could have said "Yea his ki is even lower than last boo" but no it wasn't anything. Not only them, but dende and Kaioshin also don't comment on him going weaker. Why would Boo's ki going down make Elder Kaioshin say he's the most difficult Boo?

Goku wanting to fight Pure Boo alone isn't a scale to measure Evil Boo's superiority over Pure Boo since either way he admits that he was trying to act cool when taking on Boo and Potara was better.

You are telling me no one would bother to call Gohan to finish off Boo but give their 2 cents on Genki-Dama plan? No its not possible, Elder Kaioshin has shown to be a good judge of situation and powered up Gohan and gave potara, you're telling me someone like him won't ask to let supposedly stronger Gohan finish him even though Genki-Dama almost fail? Because Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan that's why after almost failing Genki-Dama, no one bothers to recommend Gohan

Again,
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"



These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for. You're just making up any possible headcanon for Evil Boo being weaker despite narrative saying something else. You're totally ignoring the fact that Goku and Vegeta underestimated him a lot.
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Nothing about that implied Dai Kaioshin making him strong. Kibitoshin is clearly implying that Pure Boo has gained blocked powers and clearly stronger than Evil Boo.
1) You are going against the logic, him feeding off South Kaioshin absorbed Ki right after his source is cut off is bad assumption considering how Dabra explicitly told that they can't use Ki from Kaioshins, which means they affect Boo negatively.

2) At this point Kibitoshin were keeping track of everything, him fretting just because Evil Boo got weaker doesn't make sense. You're just applying one headcanon after next.

3) you can't say it's single absorption when there's no plural word in Japanese, and that's why herms added the letter to make it plural. It's never implied that only one of them weakened him, all he said was Dai Kaioshin made him controllable and its only after Elder Kaioshin asked about him being the most difficult boo that he tells about the power he lowered by absorbing gods is back to his original self.
4) no, that's a, bad retcon. Nothing in original manga suggests that it took an hours, i mean what part of it looks long? Manga Vegetto hardly took time in doing things. Again using headcanons, do you realize that they originally planned to Take Ki from weaker humans than Kaioshins in Tenkaichi Budokai? , it's obviously because of Kaioshin ki either making him weaker or not making any difference.

You are mixing up two statements for no reason, Goku originally said he needs to gather Ki for 60 seconds and after 60 seconds he keeps realizing that it's not enough, it's just him gathering as much ki as he can. Either way Goku admits his inferiority to Boo and told he needs to train to catch up to him so it's a fact that he couldn't have killed him.

They started using the term "take as much ki" and this time the attack wasn't like older one where a little bit of Ki is taken. Again it's Ki, Kaio also said how its an attack based on taking energy from living things, them almost failing after taking Gohan's Ki is a clear indication of narrative. Vegeta is not dumb enough to let Pure Boo beat him to death, ask Goku to take both him and boo out with Genki-Dama and rely on begging people to give energy despite no one listening to him. Genki Dama is always a last resort, Goku himself thought that at the very least they need Gohan AND Gotenks to fight together with them, which clearly tells he's above Gohan. There's no reason to ask Gotenks when one is enough and he doesn't even imply anything like "Gohan can beat him for us alone", as i told you are just reaching out and only interpretating one thing and not looking at it objectively.

The narrative makes no sense with Gohan > Kid Boo which all resulted because toriyama wasn't explicit enough with "most difficult boo" thing. It's obvious he meant the most strongest that's why :
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t-have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”


Elder Kaioshin who powered up Gohan, saw him and never bothered to call Gohan. Same with dende who was attentive in giving ideas to kill boo. Elder Kaioshin has been shown to take preemptive measures like Giving Goku Potara, after seeing Pure Boo asking Kibitoshin to give Goku and Vegeta potara too, you are telling me he won't bother calling supposedly stronger Gohan to one shot Boo?
What gag expressions? There's absolutely no gag expressions or anything from Goku during that entire course of events, and no, he wouldn't have necessarily said that even if he sensed it, because what he does state is implication enough, especially when you combine it with what he previously said inside Buu.

To take a page from your book, these two statements tell the story:
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
The first one is right after they managed to revert Buu to his base Evil Buu form. His power has dropped significantly, and Goku is elated that they're "almost there". Then, upon Buu reverting down to Pure Buu, Goku is elated once again and proclaiming "We did it!" (indicating success) and that they might be able to manage something. What were his two goals with Buu during that entire ordeal? Get Gohan and the others to safety and weaken Buu to where they can manage something without fusing. They had already got Gohan and the others to safety before he made that comment, so his elated "We did it!" had to have been in response to his only other goal, which was weaken Buu further than they had with Evil Buu.

Yes, Goku admits that he thought he could do better and that the Potara would have made an easy win, but the fact remains that he still maintained and believed he could defeat Pure Buu on his own, when he was too scared to even entertain the idea of trying to fight Evil Buu.

By that point in the story, Goku and Vegeta were ignoring the ideas Rou Kaioushin was suggesting, so why bother making another that they'd just as likely ignore anyway.

Kibitoshin readily states in that very dialogue that it's the heart that Buu obtained through absorption that weakened him, and in turn it is established that he gained said heart from absorbing Dai Kaioushin. Combine this with the earlier established statement that absorbing people made Buu stronger and forced a transformation gives us no logical alternative but to accept that the South Kaioushin made him stronger. We are given the "normal" end results of absorption, and then told by the same person who didn't refute the rules on the normal end results that there was one exception. You cannot conclude that there were multiple exceptions then when it isn't stated or implied.

1) Again, we aren't told WHY they couldn't use Kaioushin's ki. It is expressly told to us that one absorption affected Buu differently than the norm, with nothing stated or implied that any other absorption also failed to affect Buu normally.

2) This is the same Kaioushin that panicked over Pui Pui being a serious threat, despite having seen Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power only minutes before. He is a terrible judge of strength, and he's shown that repeatedly.

3) You can't say it's plural either for the same reason. We are expressly told though that Buu's power diminished when he gained his heart, and in that same backstory we're told that he gained a heart through absorbing Dai Kaioushin.

4) Doesn't matter whether you consider it a bad retcon or not. It is what is stated to have caused the fusion to separate, so whether you want to accept it as that or not is irrelevant. Likewise, we don't even know in what form Dabra senses power, so his judgment isn't necessarily sound either. After all, Saiyans cannot access their Super Saiyan power while in their base form, yet he dismissed Piccolo in favor of the base Saiyans when bringing in three of them.

I'm not mixing up two statements. I'm going by what is simply said. Vegeta brings up Goku finishing Buu using "all his might" and then Goku later talks about gathering ki to get him up to full power. Both of those are setting a finite limit as to what Goku is going for, which is his full power. Not sitting there charging up an attack beyond the limits of his strength, just a blast that was his full power.

Literally none of that counters that it's just genki they're talking about when it comes to the Genki Dama, with the only difference between the one in the Buu arc vs. the old ones being that the Buu arc one took that maximum amount of genki that could be donated, while the old one simply involved what ambient genki that could be drawn without requesting donation. Them using the word "ki" rather than genki is clearly just there for truncation purposes (it'd be like just using the word "fruit" instead of specifically saying "pineapple", when speaking of a situation involving pineapples specifically). As said, the fact that Goku specifically asks for genki donations during that ordeal establishes that it's genki they're after.

Regardless of what you believe, Vegeta gave his reason for the Genki Dama, and that is the only reason we have to work with. Any other reason that you may assume that he had is unsupported and unsubstantiated. He wanted the people of the Earth to handle their own protection for once and not rely on the likes of Goku and the others to do it for them. In fact, bringing Gohan up there would go completely against what his established reason was, and it's not like he wouldn't say that Gohan or Gotenks wasn't strong enough to handle Buu if he felt they weren't.

The narrative fits perfectly with Gohan being stronger than Pure Buu and that Evil Buu was likewise more powerful. As for "most troublesome", Kibitoshin himself gives the very reasons why he's the most troublesome in response to Rou Kaioushin's statement, and it's all related to his being pure evil and uncontrollable, not his strength.
I am sorry but at this point you deny to even believe what's mentioned in manga, when 3 of 4 expressions in manga were gag expression. Then I can also say, Elder Kaioshin was satisfied with Evil Boo but After seeing Pure Boo he calls him most difficult implying strongest.

Again, "We did it, This way we might be able to manage something" is reply to Vegeta's "He's Shrunk quite a bit", it's simple, his Ki never went down otherwise Vegeta would say "Sentoryuk" or "Pawwa" or "Ki" went down, you just don't understand what the point of Exposition and dialogue is. When Gohan-Boo reverts to Evil Boo Goku told Vegeta about his Ki getting smaller even though Vegeta can sense, when Pure Boo is shrunk he comments about his size when Goku can see him too, so when characters talk about these things it's for informing the viewers. Do you realize that manga is written by Toriyama and characters don't act on their own? You can't assume things based on vague interpretations especially when they go against the precedence set before, that is atleast one character mentioning drop in power. Not even Dende or Kaioshin mention it, on contrary they stop celebrating after seeing Pure Boo. Why would they stop celebrating after seeing Boo getting weaker? You only new things Elder Kaioshin got to know about Pure Boo was.... He absorbed 2 People in the past, before he called him the Most Difficult Boo, why would he call him strongest Boo based on just the fact that he absorbed two gods when even Evil Boo shows that feat?

No, you don't even make sense. When I show these examples :
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"

Everything is as explicit as anything can get, I bold marked the key words, you are just willfully glossing over my statement which came way later than Goku's " we did it" and his fight with Pure Boo. It's so simple unless one is badly biased for Evil Boo or Gohan being Stronger than Pure Boo. I mean my Favorite Boo is Gotenks-Boo but I can be objective enough to admit that Pure Boo is strongest Unfused Boo. Goku thinks they atleast need Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them, which means Gohan, Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo teaming up to take down Pure Boo.

Now if he said "you are gonna get Gohan to beat boo" but no, what he says is totally different unless you start making assumptions again.

Do you realize that he just now crushed potara and said he wants to beat Boo with his own powers? What option he has now? For your information, never did they imply that Gohan can finish Boo alone, never.
Do you ignore powerscaling too? Goku was confident enough of Killing Majin Boo and that means he was stronger than Majin Boo and Evil Boo was an outgrowth from Majin Boo too, so the Power difference between Majin Boo before splitting and Evil Boo won't even be that great. Goku is above Majin Boo and so is Evil Boo, there's no reason Goku won't be able to go Toe-to-Toe against Evil Boo considering he is stronger than his next weakest form already so when he said that he can't Take Evil Boo, he never told Anyone including us that He can even stand against Majin Boo before splitting, but what is the first thing he does on Kaioshin Realm? He admits that there is no point in holding back and then told Vegeta the truth, which clearly means that he was hiding his Power and was never giving his all. His reasoning for taking on Pure Boo alone was because Pure Boo was all by himself and had no one inside him to give power. Evil Boo had Good Boo but Vegeta removed him so Pure Boo is the last Boo who's alone and Goku loves fighting one-on-one, he thinks Evil Boo after absorbing People was a cheat that's why he wanted to face Pure Boo alone.
Goku and Vegeta are already out of options and at the end of their rope and are open to any ideas which can help in taking Pure Boo down, so you are coming up with another headcanon.

Dabra explicitly mentioned that they can't Use Kaioshin ki to power up Boo's revival, then we even see Metamoran fusion staying intact in Boo's body but Potara diffusing the moment they remove barrier, which already hint at Majin Powers not working with Demon Powers. When Elder Kaioshin saw Boo absorb Vegetto, keep in mind that Kibitoshin was optimistic and never thought Pure Boo will emerge. His celebration after seeing Evil Boo to terrified expression after witnessing Pure Boo already tell how he never expected things to take this turn. It's only because Elder Kaioshin knows about Kaioshins not making Boo stronger that only after he was told that in past Boo absorbed 2 Kaioshins, he came to conclusion that Pure Boo was most difficult and it's only after that, the Kaioshin mentions drop in Power through absorptions. Why should Kibitoshin mention each and everything? There's no reason for him to unnecessarily mention the drop in his power through absorptions when That time hasn't came yet.

1) because it won't power up Boo, how's that so hard to conclude? They were originally planning to steal ki from participants from Tenkaichi Budokai who are definitely weaker than Kaioshins, you think they would resort to take energy from fodder humans but not Kaioshins?

2) because this same Kaioshin at that point never saw the extent of the Saiyan powers but after seeing Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo fight, he has seen enough and obviously he's used to seeing how Saiyans fight. Its not just Kibitoshin who got scared after seeing Pure Boo but Elder Kaioshin too. Let me inform you that Elder Kaioshin was taking preemptive measures to take down Boo like powering up Boo or telling Goku to use Potara instead of buying time to use Fusion dance with Gohan, these things prove that he's paying attention to fights and so it's only sensible that he saw the rise in power in Pure Boo that his attitude changed after seeing Pure Boo. Hell, he even calls Goku "idiot" and literally screams at him for not using potara fusion which proves that Pure Boo was not a small deal, Elder Kaioshin powered up and saw Gohan, still he recommended Potara to Goku.

3) yet we are never told about South Kaioshin making him powerful but we know that Kaioshin ki is useless to Boo. You don't make sense with "burning remnant ki" thing, you can't start accessing power after the source is cut off, he kept on transforming in reverse and the funny thing is no one mentioned about Ki dropping other than your vague assumptions, when Goku and Vegeta are guilty of judging opponents by size too like how Goku comments after seeing Freeza or Vegeta despite having ability to sense ki on Namek thinking he can kill Freeza. Ki is not definite, it can fluctuate that's the reason why these assumptions of characters can't be totally accurate. On top of that, it's classic Toriyama gag where the final transformation gives the impression that it will get bigger only to get smaller and the "oh he's big, lol he's smaller" and then "you got smaller i can take you on", that's the same thing here that's why no one mentioned Ki getting down.

4) show me a proof in original manga that Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo took 1 hour. now Dabra's Ki sensing abilities are questionable too, as expected from you :D :D :D.

Goku never talked about him having power to take down Boo, but just the fact that he needs to charge enough ki in one minute if he wants to obliterate Boo. That's no different than anyone gathering all their ki to take down an enemy, what happened after one minute of charging Ki? Goku said he needs more which totally proves my point that he was in heat of battle and struggling with his decision to take down Boo with his own power in place of using Potara. Obviously he was going for a Final Kamehameha attack but it was gonna be impossible because you can't get stronger out of nowhere, he already mentioned that Boo keeps coming back without getting weaker no matter what Goku does.


As expected you are going against what's written:

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!

Genki-Dama has ki, that's why back in Saiyan arc, when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki-Dama, Goku told him that it's a collection of Ki he gathered from entire World and even when Kuririn handles it he talks about how big ki it is. Even Kaio told that it allows the user to gather "Energy" from surroundings.
You don't get how "Genki" means origin of Ki, the Translation of "Genki" is energy, it's a noun. It's the core of Ki, that's why in DBZ, it is interchangeably used with the term "Chikara/Power"
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Regardless of what you believe, The implications already say that Pure Boo is above Gohan that's why Elder Kaioshin reaction even after he sees Genki-Dama almost failing was not call Gohan, same with everyone. There's a reason Elder Kaioshin called Pure Boo Most Difficult Boo and even till the end never said or asked them to bring Gohan back to finish Boo even when he saw Genki-Dama fail.

It's funny how you add your own headcanons everytime the Genki-Dama idea from Vegeta is introduced. Yea he totally wants to beg uninterested humans to give energy then is ready to let Pure Boo beat him if it buys Goku time then is ready to die with Pure Boo when he's too hurt to get up, just because he wants to use Genki-Dama soooo badly :D :D :D :D. You not only rely on your headcanons but go against established trope of Toriyama of escalations, the final form being a weaker one for no reason just that powerscaling fans can call their Gohan the best :crazy: .


I guess you love your stories to have plotholes and nonsensical logic. Just because Pure Boo absorbs people, he's most Troublesome even though in DBZ, Power is proportionate to Difficulty. No one would call Mecha Freeza more difficult than Androids even Though Freeza is Universal emperor plus this is a series of escalations, just because he's Pure Evil he's troublesome? What is that logic? Evil Boo not only fights but always plots strategies and is 2 steps ahead of his opponent even if he's close to losing, that's way more difficult than anything Pure Boo can do. Pure Boo is strongest but can't plan things as efficiently as Evil Boo does. You are twisting the narrative, Toriyama's storytelling is simple, DBZ is about escalations and that's why Pure Boo is Most Difficult due to Power. That's why his size is small to give wrong impression of him and it was the reason Goku and Vegeta underestimated him.

Why would he create "Most Troublesome Boo", "Most strongest unfused Boo" for no reason? This is Pure headcanon which leads to unnecessary debates for 2 decades. It's obvious that Pure Boo is stronger and that's why Toriyama especially makes kibitoshin mention "Lower power through absorptions" and no one implied that South Kaioshin powered him up, when Kibitoshin told about him, he just implied how even their best fell to him.
Miracles wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:48 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 am
Miracles wrote: You keep giving out headcanon. Your assumptions and reasons about Goku being able to kill Super Buu with SSJ3 is not in the story. The complete opposite of what you makeup is in the narrative however.
I am not saying Goku can kill Evil Boo but just that he was trying to persuade Vegeta, at that time we were still under the impression that Goku can't kill any Boo. Your assumption of Pure Boo being above Evil Boo is also opposite.
It isn't. Goku outright stated Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. This is when he had SSJ3 too. So he wanted to fuse instead. Goku didn't want to fuse against Kid Buu and wanted to fight him one on one and DID that. That is what the story stated, showing that Super Buu > Kid Buu. However you falsely claim We were led to believe that Goku couldn't kill any Buu up to the Super Buu statement. Despite the fact that It was still up for debate against fat buu who would of won if Goku went all out using SSJ3 [Goku and Piccolo dialogue]. The outcome of the match was all assumption, especially since Goku wanted the kids to fight and be the savior of the earth. However, it was stated later that Goku could of killed Fat Buu and could of wasted Kid Buu with full power of SSJ3. However, Goku being able to beat Super Buu was never stated but the opposite happened with Goku outright saying Super Buu would destroy him. So your stance does not work. The story still disproves your assumptions.
Goku outright told Piccolo that he couldn't have beaten Boo even after he fought him, only to say otherwise later on.
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Goku's reason to fight Pure Boo was because he was unfused and had no one in him, Evil Boo had Good Boo in him so there's the reason, notice how he says he will think of some strategy and nothing about "he's ki went down so he's piece of cake", it's just that he doesn't want to rely on potara and wants to kill him with his own powers. He actually mentioned that it's dangerous too but he still wants to fight him, this is common Toriyama trope of making Goku fight strongest form of the villain in end. Like Vegeta in Saiyan arc, Freeza in final form or Perfect Cell.

So, just because Vegeta thought he can take down final form Freeza, means Vegeta > Freeza on Namek. Your narrative is not sensible considering how Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them to stand a chance near Boo as opposed to him thinking Gohan can one shot Piccolo-Boo. Goku never said he was holding back so there's nothing like he can beat Boo with Full Power ssj3. He's just charging as much Ki in a minute to take Boo down like Cell was charging ki to destroy Gohan or Solar System. According to your logic, Piccolo > Raditz in early Saiyan arc in Power level.

Dude, Goku was stronger than Fat Boo before splitting and Super Boo is outgrowth of him, but the Power difference isn't even that much, even though his body was more accustomed to fighting, they are still the remodeled toy from Same material with a Boost. If Goku thinks he's stronger than Fat Boo, if Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo, there's no reason to believe Goku can't go Toe-to-Toe with Super Boo, not saying he can necessarily kill him easily, but he can definitely put up a fight, Goku shows unwillingness to go ssj3 in living realm from start and even said that he's more used to using it Afterlife, there are many other factors along with it. Kaioshin realm is located in Afterlife, he doesn't need to worry about surroundings and as it's clear, Super Boo had Fat Boo in him but Pure Boo was all by himself.
You think your narrative makes sense? Gohan/Gotenks can kill Boo yet no one bothers to mention that but they are giving their 2 cents on Genki Dama plan? Elder Kaioshin never bothered to mention the idea of bringing Gohan to kill Boo even though he's trying to come up with any idea he can provide with Genki-Dama plan? Then shows hopelessness when the Genki-Dama is close to failing? Vegeta is fearful that another Pure Boo coming out from good boo will mean doom even though Gohan is supposedly stronger? Goku thinks if Satan hadn't helped them everyone would have been doomed even though Gohan is supposedly stronger? Everyone acts like Genki-Dama is the only way to kill Pure Boo even though Gohan is enough?
The only one Goku thought was able to Kill Pure Boo was Vegetto that's the only implication.

your narrative makes zero sense.
Saturnine wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:40 am
I've always found arguments based on undermining the sincerity of Goku's statements a bit of a desperate attempt to find support for a pre-conceived claim, rather than looking at the matter objectively with no preference of outcome.

If you do that, you can only arrive at the conclusion that Super Buu is much stronger than Kid Buu.

I do understand that the notion of Kid Buu being the strongest is quite ingrained in many people, especially from Europe where there was really nothing to confront the dubbed, filler-ridden anime with. But you can't just go on ignoring evidence only to preserve what you feel more comfortable with.
Yet the same Goku thinks Gotenks and Gohan need to fight together to stand a chance, let's ignore that.

No one points out how Gohan or Gotenks can kill boo even when Genki-Dama is close to failing, yet give their 2 cents for it.

Western fans with their headcanons have ruined the Boo arc, Toriyama nonsensically making the final form weaker for no reason then making everyone act like Failing Genki-Dama is the end.

Even though his interviews already imply that Pure Boo is strongest unfused boo.

Also it's funny how you present your biased viewpoint as objective with saying how other fandom is misinformed, when US dub creates issues with Goku saying he was holding back when fighting Pure Boo and could have killed him when he was fresh but needs to charge energy again, when in Original he was never holding back. On top of that, if one is interpreting everything from Chapter 508 to 509 objectively and yet reaching the conclusion that Evil Boo is stronger than Pure Boo he will need headcanons, surely. Because there is no mention of Ki going down with Pure Boo plus The change in tone of Kaioshin and then calling him the strongest Boo and even making Vegeta deduce that removing Fat Boo will weaken him, then.... Literally weaken him? That's nonsense, that's not how Toriyama does things, it's obviously for subversion of expectations, he was doing this all the time in this arc. Why would he conveniently become weaker than Super Boo? Why should Toriyama give a more tiny looking form, when Grey Boo could have done the same job? It's because of "going against expectations of viewers", making Goku and Vegeta say "he's small lol we can take him" only for them to regret their decisions. No one in Shonen would introduce a weaker form of a villain in final battle, Super Boo > Kid Boo makes as much sense as Freeza in final form getting weaker than even Reacoom for no reason.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:37 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am
I am sorry but at this point you deny to even believe what's mentioned in manga, when 3 of 4 expressions in manga were gag expression.
Are you for real now? Just read those panels to check for myself and I see nothing out of character for Goku. If anything, Goku's lighteartedness may be played up a little bit here to accentuate him arguing with Vegeta. Their arguments at that point in the story were pretty comical after all. Nothing that would invalidate anything Goku was saying.
Then I can also say, Elder Kaioshin was satisfied with Evil Boo but After seeing Pure Boo he calls him most difficult implying strongest.
Most difficult does not imply strongest. It implies what was later shown to be true - that unlike Super Buu he can't be reasoned with, he's volatile, insane and destroys stuff with no provocation at all. On top of that even SSj3 Goku alone can't really give him pause. If that doesn't make him more difficult than any other Buu, than I don't know what would.
Again, "We did it, This way we might be able to manage something" is reply to Vegeta's "He's Shrunk quite a bit", it's simple, his Ki never went down otherwise Vegeta would say "Sentoryuk" or "Pawwa" or "Ki" went down, you just don't understand what the point of Exposition and dialogue is.
And you don't seem to understand that by this point in the story both Goku and Vegeta know better than to judge someone by their size. When Goku said they might be able to manage something, he must have considered the ki size. Hell, even the fact that he agreed to take turns fighting him with Vegeta already tells you everything you know about Kid Buu's power. Goku wouldn't do that with any other Buu and he knew it - he'd get killed in one blow.
When Gohan-Boo reverts to Evil Boo Goku told Vegeta about his Ki getting smaller even though Vegeta can sense, when Pure Boo is shrunk he comments about his size when Goku can see him too, so when characters talk about these things it's for informing the viewers. Do you realize that manga is written by Toriyama and characters don't act on their own? You can't assume things based on vague interpretations especially when they go against the precedence set before, that is atleast one character mentioning drop in power.
It's not "vague interpretations" when you later see it backed up with feats. We've never seen Goku attempt to fight Super Buu in the manga, and the only time he had a chance , he was too afraid to and said both he and Vegeta would get killed. On the other hand, he was able to trade blows evenly with Kid Buu, only later faltering because of SSj3's bad stamina and power drainage.
Not even Dende or Kaioshin mention it, on contrary they stop celebrating after seeing Pure Boo. Why would they stop celebrating after seeing Boo getting weaker?
Because he was still strong enough to resist anything bar fusion, plus he immediately started destroying planets after he was reborn? It's not like anyone other than Goku, Gotenks or Gohan in the entire universe could hope to put a stop to Buu, so in this context it doesn't matter if he was weaker - his power tier was still insane. Also, with Super Buu you didn't have to worry about him blowing up pretty much everything in the universe into nonexistence - he was more about having fun and eating candy than complete obliteration of everything.
You only new things Elder Kaioshin got to know about Pure Boo was.... He absorbed 2 People in the past, before he called him the Most Difficult Boo, why would he call him strongest Boo based on just the fact that he absorbed two gods when even Evil Boo shows that feat?
Because he never called him the "strongest" - it's you interpreting "most difficult" as "strongest" simply because you want it to be so - while at the same time readily accusing others of twisting the statements and headcanon.
Everything is as explicit as anything can get, I bold marked the key words, you are just willfully glossing over my statement which came way later than Goku's " we did it" and his fight with Pure Boo. It's so simple unless one is badly biased for Evil Boo or Gohan being Stronger than Pure Boo.
One can't be "biased" towards Gohan being stronger than Kid Buu, because Gohan WAS stronger than Kid Buu - he was considerably stronger than Gotenks, who was already considered by Goku enough to handle Fat Buu at mere Super Saiyan - something he himself would need SSj3 to do (yet opted not to do immediately). If Gohan is stronger than SSj3 Goku, then he's also necessarily stronger than Kid Buu.
I mean my Favorite Boo is Gotenks-Boo but I can be objective enough to admit that Pure Boo is strongest Unfused Boo.
And there you have it! Super Buu is also a fused Buu. Or are you going to ignore how Mr. Buu continued to exist independently after Kid Buu was killed? Super Buu was not an A+B addition like regular absorptions, it was clearly a huge power boost much akin to a fusion. Then again, Huge Buu was shown to be even stronger than Super Buu, meaning the South Kaioshin gave Kid Buu a huge amount of power when he absorbed him, and Super Buu could simply access a portion of that power (or all of it, but still dampened by Dai Kaioshin's influence).
Goku thinks they atleast need Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them, which means Gohan, Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo teaming up to take down Pure Boo.
What sense would that make if Goku was doing well enough on his own and was only restricted by his transformation gradually wearing him out?
Do you ignore powerscaling too? Goku was confident enough of Killing Majin Boo and that means he was stronger than Majin Boo and Evil Boo was an outgrowth from Majin Boo too, so the Power difference between Majin Boo before splitting and Evil Boo won't even be that great.
If it wouldn't be that great, what's the point of even making these two forms? Gotenks was said by Goku to be able to easily beat Fat Buu, and Goku had no idea Gotenks would be able to go SSj3 at that point. Super Buu took SSj3 from Gotenks to even match, and even that was after Goten and Trunks trained in the RoSaT to power up considerably. Indeed, initial statements about Super Buu's power didn't suggest a huge power increase, but it was all proven wrong in the Gotenks fight, where even Piccolo admitted he had completely misjudged Buu and that Gotenks can't beat him.
Goku is above Majin Boo and so is Evil Boo, there's no reason Goku won't be able to go Toe-to-Toe against Evil Boo considering he is stronger than his next weakest form already so when he said that he can't Take Evil Boo, he never told Anyone including us that He can even stand against Majin Boo before splitting, but what is the first thing he does on Kaioshin Realm? He admits that there is no point in holding back and then told Vegeta the truth, which clearly means that he was hiding his Power and was never giving his all. His reasoning for taking on Pure Boo alone was because Pure Boo was all by himself and had no one inside him to give power.
That Pure Buu was all by himself was just an excuse, the real reason Goku went against him alone was that he thought he had a chance, even though it probably wouldn't be easy. Vegeta later said that SSj3 Goku with fully gathered ki should be able to muster enough power to obliterate Kid Buu all on his own. While that never happened, this still stands in stark contrast to Goku's statements regarding him fighting Super Buu, as well as Gotenks' power.
Evil Boo had Good Boo but Vegeta removed him so Pure Boo is the last Boo who's alone and Goku loves fighting one-on-one, he thinks Evil Boo after absorbing People was a cheat that's why he wanted to face Pure Boo alone.
Goku and Vegeta are already out of options and at the end of their rope and are open to any ideas which can help in taking Pure Boo down, so you are coming up with another headcanon.
Goku and Vegeta just went a bit in over their heads. But it was a matter of thinking someone's power was 1, while in fact it was like 1,1 - creating unforeseen difficulties. It's not like Goku saying he had underestimated Buu implies anything beyond that he actually might not be able to close the fight as he is now. That's still different from Super Buu, who was not even in the same league, and hence fighting him would have been entirely pointless.
Dabra explicitly mentioned that they can't Use Kaioshin ki to power up Boo's revival, then we even see Metamoran fusion staying intact in Boo's body but Potara diffusing the moment they remove barrier, which already hint at Majin Powers not working with Demon Powers. When Elder Kaioshin saw Boo absorb Vegetto, keep in mind that Kibitoshin was optimistic and never thought Pure Boo will emerge. His celebration after seeing Evil Boo to terrified expression after witnessing Pure Boo already tell how he never expected things to take this turn. It's only because Elder Kaioshin knows about Kaioshins not making Boo stronger that only after he was told that in past Boo absorbed 2 Kaioshins, he came to conclusion that Pure Boo was most difficult and it's only after that, the Kaioshin mentions drop in Power through absorptions. Why should Kibitoshin mention each and everything? There's no reason for him to unnecessarily mention the drop in his power through absorptions when That time hasn't came yet.
Shin was optimistic because he didn't expect Vegetto to defuse, and as Goku later stated, Vegetto would have been able to end Kid Buu in a single ki blast. As for that "absorptions" line - as many have pointed out, there is no plural as such in Japanese grammar, and he referred only to the "heart that Buu gained through absorption". Did you see Buu gain any "heart" after he absorbed the South Kaioshin? Not likely.
2) because this same Kaioshin at that point never saw the extent of the Saiyan powers but after seeing Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo fight, he has seen enough and obviously he's used to seeing how Saiyans fight. Its not just Kibitoshin who got scared after seeing Pure Boo but Elder Kaioshin too. Let me inform you that Elder Kaioshin was taking preemptive measures to take down Boo like powering up Boo or telling Goku to use Potara instead of buying time to use Fusion dance with Gohan, these things prove that he's paying attention to fights and so it's only sensible that he saw the rise in power in Pure Boo that his attitude changed after seeing Pure Boo. Hell, he even calls Goku "idiot" and literally screams at him for not using potara fusion which proves that Pure Boo was not a small deal, Elder Kaioshin powered up and saw Gohan, still he recommended Potara to Goku.
Yeah, because it would have been an easy victory with Potara. But making things harder for himself for the sake of a good battle is something Goku does. In stories not just villains can break a situation or do something they'll later regret, you know.
3) yet we are never told about South Kaioshin making him powerful but we know that Kaioshin ki is useless to Boo.
We are explicitly shown him getting stronger from Super Buu when he transformed into the huge form. What is that if not making him stronger? I know what you're going to answer, but a Buu fused of two Buus getting even stronger as a single Buu but with the Kaioshin's influence isn't "gaining power", then I don't know what is.
You don't make sense with "burning remnant ki" thing, you can't start accessing power after the source is cut off, he kept on transforming in reverse and the funny thing is no one mentioned about Ki dropping other than your vague assumptions, when Goku and Vegeta are guilty of judging opponents by size too like how Goku comments after seeing Freeza or Vegeta despite having ability to sense ki on Namek thinking he can kill Freeza.
You're still missing the point entirely. Super Buu was not even in the same tier as them. Kid Buu was much closer to their realm, that's why they thought they could handle him right away. Even if he was a bit too strong for them, that's still different than getting obliterated in a single attack, which is what would have happened to them if Super Buu stayed in that form.
Ki is not definite, it can fluctuate that's the reason why these assumptions of characters can't be totally accurate.
And yet this didn't keep you from conveniently ignoring all the statements about Super Buu's ki past the initial ones? :D
On top of that, it's classic Toriyama gag where the final transformation gives the impression that it will get bigger only to get smaller and the "oh he's big, lol he's smaller" and then "you got smaller i can take you on", that's the same thing here that's why no one mentioned Ki getting down.
Oh yeah? I'll remind you that 100% Freeza was a super muscular version of Final Form Freeza, just like Huge Buu was a super muscular version of Kid Buu. If non-final forms are included, 2nd form Freeza is in essence nothing but a bigger version of 1st form Freeza. Indeed - if completely different, smaller forms have shown by Toriyama to be stronger than larger ones. But something that looks like a bigger version of another form with few alterations, was practically always stronger :wink:
Goku never talked about him having power to take down Boo, but just the fact that he needs to charge enough ki in one minute if he wants to obliterate Boo. That's no different than anyone gathering all their ki to take down an enemy, what happened after one minute of charging Ki? Goku said he needs more which totally proves my point that he was in heat of battle and struggling with his decision to take down Boo with his own power in place of using Potara. Obviously he was going for a Final Kamehameha attack but it was gonna be impossible because you can't get stronger out of nowhere, he already mentioned that Boo keeps coming back without getting weaker no matter what Goku does.
Because that's what happens if someone with roughly equal power attacks you. Add Buu's great regenerative abilities and Goku's attacks understandably had little effect. Goku was getting weaker as the fight went on too. This doesn't prove that a stronger fighter couldn't obliterate Buu thanks to their superior power.

In fact, the whole decision to go for the Genki Dama was probably Goku and Vegeta thought they had enough wiggle room that they could even afford to go for it. It was not a desperate, last-ditch decision like you're making it out to be. They could always have brought Gotenks or Gohan in to clean up, but kowing that, they just opted to let the Earthlings collectively handle it - to prove a point.


Genki-Dama has ki, that's why back in Saiyan arc, when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki-Dama, Goku told him that it's a collection of Ki he gathered from entire World and even when Kuririn handles it he talks about how big ki it is. Even Kaio told that it allows the user to gather "Energy" from surroundings.
You don't get how "Genki" means origin of Ki, the Translation of "Genki" is energy, it's a noun. It's the core of Ki, that's why in DBZ, it is interchangeably used with the term "Chikara/Power"
In fact no - genki isn't the same as ki. Genki is the "life energy" that only consitutes one part of ki - it's not directly translatable as powerlevel and it's been heavily implied that a single person, no matter how strong, couldn't fuel a Genki Dama entirely.
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Regardless of what you believe, The implications already say that Pure Boo is above Gohan that's why Elder Kaioshin reaction even after he sees Genki-Dama almost failing was not call Gohan, same with everyone. There's a reason Elder Kaioshin called Pure Boo Most Difficult Boo and even till the end never said or asked them to bring Gohan back to finish Boo even when he saw Genki-Dama fail.
No they don't. According to your logic, Gohan is below Buu, then Freeza is below the energy of a few planets' woth of plants and animals :D Again, genki does not translate directly to powerlevel, never has.
It's funny how you add your own headcanons everytime the Genki-Dama idea from Vegeta is introduced. Yea he totally wants to beg uninterested humans to give energy then is ready to let Pure Boo beat him if it buys Goku time then is ready to die with Pure Boo when he's too hurt to get up, just because he wants to use Genki-Dama soooo badly :D :D :D :D. You not only rely on your headcanons but go against established trope of Toriyama of escalations, the final form being a weaker one for no reason just that powerscaling fans can call their Gohan the best :crazy: .
If you're so desperate to bring out-of-universe considerations into this, why are you so quick to ignore the very reason Kid Buu was created? It's pretty well-established that Toriyama had intended on ending the arc with Gohan defeating Buu, but that didn't sit well with Goku-loving fans from Japan, so he had to go another way. He had to create a form that Goku would be able to stand up to on his own, and he did a considerably good job of it, though he probably couldn't foresee the mess that would create - as you are right now proving yourself.

Also, this was never about liking Gohan or wanting him to be the best. Stop projecting. This is simply about following basic power chains, established solidly earlier in the manga.
I guess you love your stories to have plotholes and nonsensical logic. Just because Pure Boo absorbs people, he's most Troublesome even though in DBZ, Power is proportionate to Difficulty. No one would call Mecha Freeza more difficult than Androids even Though Freeza is Universal emperor plus this is a series of escalations, just because he's Pure Evil he's troublesome? What is that logic? Evil Boo not only fights but always plots strategies and is 2 steps ahead of his opponent even if he's close to losing, that's way more difficult than anything Pure Boo can do. Pure Boo is strongest but can't plan things as efficiently as Evil Boo does. You are twisting the narrative, Toriyama's storytelling is simple, DBZ is about escalations and that's why Pure Boo is Most Difficult due to Power. That's why his size is small to give wrong impression of him and it was the reason Goku and Vegeta underestimated him.
I've already explained above why he's considered more difficult above, and there's really nothing more to it than that.
Why would he create "Most Troublesome Boo", "Most strongest unfused Boo" for no reason?
To let Goku be the one to win the day according to fan demand?
This is Pure headcanon which leads to unnecessary debates for 2 decades. It's obvious that Pure Boo is stronger and that's why Toriyama especially makes kibitoshin mention "Lower power through absorptions"
By gaining the heart he got through absorption*
and no one implied that South Kaioshin powered him up, when Kibitoshin told about him, he just implied how even their best fell to him.
Yes they did, and yes he was shown to be stronger. Unless you think a directly larger and bulkier form of a previous one can be weaker - which is something Toriyama doesn't do, however you like to think he likes "subverting expectations". Yeah, guess Freeza's first form was stronger than his second one, because bigger doesn't always mean stronger? :D
So, just because Vegeta thought he can take down final form Freeza, means Vegeta > Freeza on Namek. Your narrative is not sensible considering how Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them to stand a chance near Boo as opposed to him thinking Gohan can one shot Piccolo-Boo. Goku never said he was holding back so there's nothing like he can beat Boo with Full Power ssj3. He's just charging as much Ki in a minute to take Boo down like Cell was charging ki to destroy Gohan or Solar System. According to your logic, Piccolo > Raditz in early Saiyan arc in Power level.
Again - it's not the same thing to underestimate an opponent who appears to be within reach, and knowing that an opponent several times stronger than your best will kill you immediately. Don't you think? Also, Goku was never shown to be taking a particularly bad beating from Kid Buu in their fight, they were evenly matched through and through. Feats take precedence over statements in situations like these, besides since that was the final fight, drama had to be played up a bit.
Dude, Goku was stronger than Fat Boo before splitting and Super Boo is outgrowth of him, but the Power difference isn't even that much, even though his body was more accustomed to fighting, they are still the remodeled toy from Same material with a Boost. If Goku thinks he's stronger than Fat Boo, if Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo, there's no reason to believe Goku can't go Toe-to-Toe with Super Boo, not saying he can necessarily kill him easily, but he can definitely put up a fight, Goku shows unwillingness to go ssj3 in living realm from start and even said that he's more used to using it Afterlife, there are many other factors along with it. Kaioshin realm is located in Afterlife, he doesn't need to worry about surroundings and as it's clear, Super Boo had Fat Boo in him but Pure Boo was all by himself.
Goku said he'd die against Super Buu, simple as that. There really shouldn't be any discussion beyond this point.
You think your narrative makes sense? Gohan/Gotenks can kill Boo yet no one bothers to mention that but they are giving their 2 cents on Genki Dama plan? Elder Kaioshin never bothered to mention the idea of bringing Gohan to kill Boo even though he's trying to come up with any idea he can provide with Genki-Dama plan? Then shows hopelessness when the Genki-Dama is close to failing? Vegeta is fearful that another Pure Boo coming out from good boo will mean doom even though Gohan is supposedly stronger? Goku thinks if Satan hadn't helped them everyone would have been doomed even though Gohan is supposedly stronger? Everyone acts like Genki-Dama is the only way to kill Pure Boo even though Gohan is enough?
The only one Goku thought was able to Kill Pure Boo was Vegetto that's the only implication.

your narrative makes zero sense.
You're under the wrong assumption that everything Toriyama ever wrote would make perfect sense. He didn't plan very far ahead when writing the manga and he had to think onf his feet. The whole point of introducing Kid Buu was to give Goku a villain to defeat, not a result of a well-thought out storyline created months or years in advance. You seem to be thinking that everything should make perfect sense and the stakes should be always escalating. But what do we get when there's instant pressure to redirect a story to something the fans want with minimal notice?
Yet the same Goku thinks Gotenks and Gohan need to fight together to stand a chance, let's ignore that.

No one points out how Gohan or Gotenks can kill boo even when Genki-Dama is close to failing, yet give their 2 cents for it.
Don't you think saying that in the midst of a climactic final fight would have made the final struggle seem anti-climactic? If anything, I think that was averted by Toriyama to keep up the appearances of the stakes being high. I know I'd do the same thing - he just had to clean up after writing himself in a corner, basically. Again, stop pretending the Buu arc is the pinnacle of writing prowess. It never was.
Western fans with their headcanons have ruined the Boo arc, Toriyama nonsensically making the final form weaker for no reason then making everyone act like Failing Genki-Dama is the end.
I don't think it 's about western fans, really. But when you stop for a second and think about it, the alternative to the above is a villain with like 8 different forms, most of which occupying the space in terms of power between SSj2 and SSj3. What's even the point of having 5 forms of Buu, all of which are weak enough for SSj3 Goku to defeat? What's the point of creating vastly different looking iterations of Buu, each said to be stronger than the last, if SSj3 Goku could have beaten them all all along, in your opinion?

It's clear that the escalation was followed by Toriyama initially, and for a while too. First we got SSj3 Goku vs Fat Buu. Then Goku said someone stronger than him would come to fight, and we got Gotenks vs Super Buu - Gotenks needed SSj3 to stand up to Super Buu, while Goku previously stated that SSj from Gotenks would be enough to handle Fat Buu. Then we got Gohan, who was even beyond SSj3 Gotenks, and for the strongest form of Buu with Gohan absorbed, it took Vegetto to handle him. Do you honestly believe that after all these escalations of power there was a possibility to make the next Buu even stronger, but have SSj3 Goku be able to fight him solo?
Even though his interviews already imply that Pure Boo is strongest unfused boo.
Which is correct, because Super Buu is fused, he's a fusion of the newly created Pure Evil Buu and Mr. Buu :D
Also it's funny how you present your biased viewpoint as objective with saying how other fandom is misinformed, when US dub creates issues with Goku saying he was holding back when fighting Pure Boo and could have killed him when he was fresh but needs to charge energy again, when in Original he was never holding back. On top of that, if one is interpreting everything from Chapter 508 to 509 objectively and yet reaching the conclusion that Evil Boo is stronger than Pure Boo he will need headcanons, surely.
It's been demonstrated to you countless times in this thread already that you're wrong on this and that these chapters don't prove anything you're implying they do.
Because there is no mention of Ki going down with Pure Boo plus The change in tone of Kaioshin and then calling him the strongest Boo
Ok, so now you're stating your own extrapolation of "most troublesome = strongest" as undisputable fact? Ok...
and even making Vegeta deduce that removing Fat Boo will weaken him, then.... Literally weaken him? That's nonsense, that's not how Toriyama does things, it's obviously for subversion of expectations, he was doing this all the time in this arc.
Actually I'd argue that Kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu would be more of a subversion of expectations than anything you're saying, because thus far every form of Buu was stronger than the previous ;)

Why would he conveniently become weaker than Super Boo? Why should Toriyama give a more tiny looking form, when Grey Boo could have done the same job? It's because of "going against expectations of viewers", making Goku and Vegeta say "he's small lol we can take him" only for them to regret their decisions. No one in Shonen would introduce a weaker form of a villain in final battle, Super Boo > Kid Boo makes as much sense as Freeza in final form getting weaker than even Reacoom for no reason.
The reasons for this have also already been given to you.
- Because Japanese fans wanted to see Goku save the day, and with previous forms of Buu it wouldn't have been possible. Toriyama, unlike Toei Animation, actually treats his pre-established power levels seriously, and since Super Buu could kill Goku in one blow, he had to think of another solution. That solution was Kid Buu.
- You're putting too much stress on this being the "final fight". Toriyama tried to make it seem as if the stakes were huge AFTER he had introduced Kid Buu - and removing Gohan and Gotenks from the fight was probably intended to preserve the drama. But the decision itself was not something that had been planned for long in advance, and therefore Kid Buu can't be compared to the final forms of Freeza or Cell.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:47 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am

I am sorry but at this point you deny to even believe what's mentioned in manga, when 3 of 4 expressions in manga were gag expression. Then I can also say, Elder Kaioshin was satisfied with Evil Boo but After seeing Pure Boo he calls him most difficult implying strongest.

Again, "We did it, This way we might be able to manage something" is reply to Vegeta's "He's Shrunk quite a bit", it's simple, his Ki never went down otherwise Vegeta would say "Sentoryuk" or "Pawwa" or "Ki" went down, you just don't understand what the point of Exposition and dialogue is. When Gohan-Boo reverts to Evil Boo Goku told Vegeta about his Ki getting smaller even though Vegeta can sense, when Pure Boo is shrunk he comments about his size when Goku can see him too, so when characters talk about these things it's for informing the viewers. Do you realize that manga is written by Toriyama and characters don't act on their own? You can't assume things based on vague interpretations especially when they go against the precedence set before, that is atleast one character mentioning drop in power. Not even Dende or Kaioshin mention it, on contrary they stop celebrating after seeing Pure Boo. Why would they stop celebrating after seeing Boo getting weaker? You only new things Elder Kaioshin got to know about Pure Boo was.... He absorbed 2 People in the past, before he called him the Most Difficult Boo, why would he call him strongest Boo based on just the fact that he absorbed two gods when even Evil Boo shows that feat?

No, you don't even make sense. When I show these examples :
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"

Everything is as explicit as anything can get, I bold marked the key words, you are just willfully glossing over my statement which came way later than Goku's " we did it" and his fight with Pure Boo. It's so simple unless one is badly biased for Evil Boo or Gohan being Stronger than Pure Boo. I mean my Favorite Boo is Gotenks-Boo but I can be objective enough to admit that Pure Boo is strongest Unfused Boo. Goku thinks they atleast need Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them, which means Gohan, Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo teaming up to take down Pure Boo.

Now if he said "you are gonna get Gohan to beat boo" but no, what he says is totally different unless you start making assumptions again.

Do you realize that he just now crushed potara and said he wants to beat Boo with his own powers? What option he has now? For your information, never did they imply that Gohan can finish Boo alone, never.
Do you ignore powerscaling too? Goku was confident enough of Killing Majin Boo and that means he was stronger than Majin Boo and Evil Boo was an outgrowth from Majin Boo too, so the Power difference between Majin Boo before splitting and Evil Boo won't even be that great. Goku is above Majin Boo and so is Evil Boo, there's no reason Goku won't be able to go Toe-to-Toe against Evil Boo considering he is stronger than his next weakest form already so when he said that he can't Take Evil Boo, he never told Anyone including us that He can even stand against Majin Boo before splitting, but what is the first thing he does on Kaioshin Realm? He admits that there is no point in holding back and then told Vegeta the truth, which clearly means that he was hiding his Power and was never giving his all. His reasoning for taking on Pure Boo alone was because Pure Boo was all by himself and had no one inside him to give power. Evil Boo had Good Boo but Vegeta removed him so Pure Boo is the last Boo who's alone and Goku loves fighting one-on-one, he thinks Evil Boo after absorbing People was a cheat that's why he wanted to face Pure Boo alone.
Goku and Vegeta are already out of options and at the end of their rope and are open to any ideas which can help in taking Pure Boo down, so you are coming up with another headcanon.

Dabra explicitly mentioned that they can't Use Kaioshin ki to power up Boo's revival, then we even see Metamoran fusion staying intact in Boo's body but Potara diffusing the moment they remove barrier, which already hint at Majin Powers not working with Demon Powers. When Elder Kaioshin saw Boo absorb Vegetto, keep in mind that Kibitoshin was optimistic and never thought Pure Boo will emerge. His celebration after seeing Evil Boo to terrified expression after witnessing Pure Boo already tell how he never expected things to take this turn. It's only because Elder Kaioshin knows about Kaioshins not making Boo stronger that only after he was told that in past Boo absorbed 2 Kaioshins, he came to conclusion that Pure Boo was most difficult and it's only after that, the Kaioshin mentions drop in Power through absorptions. Why should Kibitoshin mention each and everything? There's no reason for him to unnecessarily mention the drop in his power through absorptions when That time hasn't came yet.

1) because it won't power up Boo, how's that so hard to conclude? They were originally planning to steal ki from participants from Tenkaichi Budokai who are definitely weaker than Kaioshins, you think they would resort to take energy from fodder humans but not Kaioshins?

2) because this same Kaioshin at that point never saw the extent of the Saiyan powers but after seeing Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo fight, he has seen enough and obviously he's used to seeing how Saiyans fight. Its not just Kibitoshin who got scared after seeing Pure Boo but Elder Kaioshin too. Let me inform you that Elder Kaioshin was taking preemptive measures to take down Boo like powering up Boo or telling Goku to use Potara instead of buying time to use Fusion dance with Gohan, these things prove that he's paying attention to fights and so it's only sensible that he saw the rise in power in Pure Boo that his attitude changed after seeing Pure Boo. Hell, he even calls Goku "idiot" and literally screams at him for not using potara fusion which proves that Pure Boo was not a small deal, Elder Kaioshin powered up and saw Gohan, still he recommended Potara to Goku.

3) yet we are never told about South Kaioshin making him powerful but we know that Kaioshin ki is useless to Boo. You don't make sense with "burning remnant ki" thing, you can't start accessing power after the source is cut off, he kept on transforming in reverse and the funny thing is no one mentioned about Ki dropping other than your vague assumptions, when Goku and Vegeta are guilty of judging opponents by size too like how Goku comments after seeing Freeza or Vegeta despite having ability to sense ki on Namek thinking he can kill Freeza. Ki is not definite, it can fluctuate that's the reason why these assumptions of characters can't be totally accurate. On top of that, it's classic Toriyama gag where the final transformation gives the impression that it will get bigger only to get smaller and the "oh he's big, lol he's smaller" and then "you got smaller i can take you on", that's the same thing here that's why no one mentioned Ki getting down.

4) show me a proof in original manga that Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo took 1 hour. now Dabra's Ki sensing abilities are questionable too, as expected from you :D :D :D.

Goku never talked about him having power to take down Boo, but just the fact that he needs to charge enough ki in one minute if he wants to obliterate Boo. That's no different than anyone gathering all their ki to take down an enemy, what happened after one minute of charging Ki? Goku said he needs more which totally proves my point that he was in heat of battle and struggling with his decision to take down Boo with his own power in place of using Potara. Obviously he was going for a Final Kamehameha attack but it was gonna be impossible because you can't get stronger out of nowhere, he already mentioned that Boo keeps coming back without getting weaker no matter what Goku does.


As expected you are going against what's written:

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!

Genki-Dama has ki, that's why back in Saiyan arc, when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki-Dama, Goku told him that it's a collection of Ki he gathered from entire World and even when Kuririn handles it he talks about how big ki it is. Even Kaio told that it allows the user to gather "Energy" from surroundings.
You don't get how "Genki" means origin of Ki, the Translation of "Genki" is energy, it's a noun. It's the core of Ki, that's why in DBZ, it is interchangeably used with the term "Chikara/Power"
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Regardless of what you believe, The implications already say that Pure Boo is above Gohan that's why Elder Kaioshin reaction even after he sees Genki-Dama almost failing was not call Gohan, same with everyone. There's a reason Elder Kaioshin called Pure Boo Most Difficult Boo and even till the end never said or asked them to bring Gohan back to finish Boo even when he saw Genki-Dama fail.

It's funny how you add your own headcanons everytime the Genki-Dama idea from Vegeta is introduced. Yea he totally wants to beg uninterested humans to give energy then is ready to let Pure Boo beat him if it buys Goku time then is ready to die with Pure Boo when he's too hurt to get up, just because he wants to use Genki-Dama soooo badly :D :D :D :D. You not only rely on your headcanons but go against established trope of Toriyama of escalations, the final form being a weaker one for no reason just that powerscaling fans can call their Gohan the best :crazy: .


I guess you love your stories to have plotholes and nonsensical logic. Just because Pure Boo absorbs people, he's most Troublesome even though in DBZ, Power is proportionate to Difficulty. No one would call Mecha Freeza more difficult than Androids even Though Freeza is Universal emperor plus this is a series of escalations, just because he's Pure Evil he's troublesome? What is that logic? Evil Boo not only fights but always plots strategies and is 2 steps ahead of his opponent even if he's close to losing, that's way more difficult than anything Pure Boo can do. Pure Boo is strongest but can't plan things as efficiently as Evil Boo does. You are twisting the narrative, Toriyama's storytelling is simple, DBZ is about escalations and that's why Pure Boo is Most Difficult due to Power. That's why his size is small to give wrong impression of him and it was the reason Goku and Vegeta underestimated him.

Why would he create "Most Troublesome Boo", "Most strongest unfused Boo" for no reason? This is Pure headcanon which leads to unnecessary debates for 2 decades. It's obvious that Pure Boo is stronger and that's why Toriyama especially makes kibitoshin mention "Lower power through absorptions" and no one implied that South Kaioshin powered him up, when Kibitoshin told about him, he just implied how even their best fell to him.
What you're implying or referring to as "gag expressions" aren't gag expressions though. I looked at those pages a number of times, and nothing about any of them remotely come across as "gag". Likewise, Rou Kaioushin only asks if he's the most "most troublesome" because of the description of Buu's past that Kibitoshin gave him, which, up to that point, had made no mention of Buu's power decreasing at all from the absorption of Dai Kaioushin. Kibitoshin simply says that Buu became kindler and gentler, to which Rou Kaioushin said that this makes Pure Buu the original, most troublesome one. As such, that even more firmly establishes he's talking about Buu's uncontrollable and evil nature, not his strength.

You say for us to not assume things based on vague interpretations, when you've been doing just that a number of times now. It would be extremely out of character for Goku to judge Buu on his size, and assume they stood a better chance now, if his strength was even higher than it was before, especially when he had previous established, without contradiction, that he and Vegeta could stand no chance against Evil Buu. Vegeta is the only one we can assume was judging Buu by his size, but it'd be out of character for Goku to do so.

Rou Kaioushin no longer celebrating can easily be interpreted by him being confused about the existence of this new Buu, and Rou Kaioushin never once calls him the strongest. He inquires if that makes him the most troublesome, with all context establishing that he was referring to Buu being uncontrollable, not his strength.

You keep bringing up those two lines, but again, neither of them establish anything. Namely because in the original dialogue, it's unclear if Goku is saying "they" when referring to what he thinks the wish is. Because there's no plural in Japanese, his statement comes across as this:
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so he/they can fight.”
Evil Buu is readily established multiple times over to be vastly more powerful than Fat Buu was, so even though Goku felt he could take on Fat Buu doesn't mean in the slightest that he could take on Evil Buu. Even going with more conservative estimates, he was multiple times more powerful than Fat Buu, but some of the more out there estimates put him hundreds of times Fat Buu's strength. Regardless though, Evil Buu is readily far more powerful than Fat Buu, so Goku's ability to take Fat Buu on is meaningless. Likewise, Goku only admitted he could have taken on and beaten Fat Buu, and that he was lying when he said earlier that he couldn't. Assuming he could have taken on Evil Buu too and that he was lying is baseless, since there's no evidence supporting that he could.

1) Because we're not told why. You say it won't power up Buu, but that's never said. You're making assumptions when no information is given. All we know is they "couldn't use" Kaioushin's ki, but we're not told why. Remember, it was Spopovitch and Yamu who were left to their own devices as far as gathering ki for Buu, so what they decided on isn't indicative of what Babidi and Dabra were wanting or expecting. They could have readily just been hoping to avoid Kaioushin's eye until it was too late, and when Goku and the others showed up, Babidi and Dabra decided to use three of them.

2) Rou Kaioushin didn't get scared until after he saw and was told how unpredictable and uncontrollable Buu was. The moment Buu formed, he tried and later succeeded in destroying the Earth, and that's all the reason he had to be scared. And he only recommended the Potara because Gohan was already dead and out of the picture (Goku and Vegeta were the only two options at the time around to fight). He makes absolutely no mention or suggestion at all that he felt Pure Buu was more powerful than Evil Buu, just more dangerous due to his unpredictable nature.

3) Goku never makes any comments about Freeza's size or judges him based on his size. I don't know where you're coming from with that. Goku, at no point, ever shows that he judges someone based on their physical appearance if he's capable of sensing their ki. Since it would be out of character for him to do so, and there's no evidence whatsoever that he decided to at this point, Goku's comment on Buu supports that Buu's power decreased. Buu transformed to South Kaioushin Buu, stopped briefly, then transformed again to Pure Buu. It wasn't a continual process given how things were shown and described, so the only logical explanation is that he had influence within him still that needed burned off. Why would it not have been an instantaneous transformation otherwise? It took a considerable length of time for Buu to revert from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, when by your own admission all the other transformations were instantaneous.

4) It doesn't matter what I think or not. Super established that it was due to the one hour time limit of the earrings that Vegetto de-fused, so we have to accept that.

Except that he said that he was charging up back to full power, and that he could take Buu out with "all his might". The only reason he said he needed more was because he was beginning to lose ki faster than he was drawing it in, not that he needed more ki than his own maximum.
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
Goku: “Da…Damn it…Damn it…!! …It shouldn’t be…It shouldn’t be like this…!! My…my power…my power is…Fa…falling off…”
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”
I'm not going against what is written. You are going against what Toriyama established and the definition of genki. Genki, 元気, is defined as health energy, as in the energy someone or something has when in good health. That is why taking all that could be donated left the random man completely winded and Kaioushin unable to teleport. They weren't in good enough health to do so. The words ki and genki can only be exchangeable when referring to genki, not when referring to ki, so every time the term ki is used in relation to the Genki Dama, they're referring to genki, and not ki. So when Gohan donated to the Genki Dama, he was still just donating his genki.

Rou Kaioushin only asked if Buu was the most troublesome Buu in regards to his evil and uncontrollable nature, not his strength (as Kibitoshin had made no mention or suggestion of Buu being weakened by Dai Kaioushin at the point that he asked it). Likewise, as said, Goku and Vegeta had already ignored his suggestions many times now, so there's no logical reason for him to make another suggestion that they'd ignore, especially when they've made up their minds about it.

You are the one adding your head canon to everything. It is established quite clearly why Vegeta wanted the Genki Dama used, and that was because he wanted the people of the Earth to help with their own defense for once. Saying he had any other reason for choosing it is baseless and unsupported.

Gohan being more powerful than Pure Buu and Pure Buu being weaker than Evil Buu has no plotholes to it. It fits everything within the manga perfectly well and doesn't require baseless and unfounded leaps of logic. It doesn't require Goku suddenly believing he could beat someone stronger than someone he said he stood no chance against. It doesn't require Goku just randomly judging someone by their size when beforehand he's never done so if he could sense their ki. It doesn't require assuming the Genki Dama works differently than it clearly is explained to, etc.

Your Freeza and Artificial Humans argument doesn't work, because with the Artificial Humans, we are actually given evidence indicating that they are more powerful and more dangerous than Freeza was. With Pure Buu, none of that's there. There's an implied and indicated power drop in comparison to Evil Buu, and nothing is said to indicate or support otherwise.

Kibitoshin means Buu losing power through absorption (again, no plural in Japanese, so you can't say that's what it is) as a result of him gaining a heart. We're also told he only gained his heart from absorbing Dai Kaioushin, thus South Kaioushin did not weaken him. In turn, we are told beforehand that absorptions made Buu stronger and made him transform, with Kibitoshin, at the time, not contradicting it. So we combine all that information and we're left with South Kaioushin making Buu stronger and Dai Kaioushin making him weaker. That's it.

I'm not twisting the narrative. The simplest, most straightforward narrative is Pure Buu being weaker than Evil Buu. It takes the least amount of assumptions or hurdle jumping to make it work.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:58 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am
Miracles wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:48 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 am
I am not saying Goku can kill Evil Boo but just that he was trying to persuade Vegeta, at that time we were still under the impression that Goku can't kill any Boo. Your assumption of Pure Boo being above Evil Boo is also opposite.
It isn't. Goku outright stated Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. This is when he had SSJ3 too. So he wanted to fuse instead. Goku didn't want to fuse against Kid Buu and wanted to fight him one on one and DID that. That is what the story stated, showing that Super Buu > Kid Buu. However you falsely claim We were led to believe that Goku couldn't kill any Buu up to the Super Buu statement. Despite the fact that It was still up for debate against fat buu who would of won if Goku went all out using SSJ3 [Goku and Piccolo dialogue]. The outcome of the match was all assumption, especially since Goku wanted the kids to fight and be the savior of the earth. However, it was stated later that Goku could of killed Fat Buu and could of wasted Kid Buu with full power of SSJ3. However, Goku being able to beat Super Buu was never stated but the opposite happened with Goku outright saying Super Buu would destroy him. So your stance does not work. The story still disproves your assumptions.
Goku outright told Piccolo that he couldn't have beaten Boo even after he fought him, only to say otherwise later on.
Lets see if what you say matches up to the story...

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t knowWhen it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

As you can see...You are wrong again...Goku didn't give Piccolo a straight answer but left the outcome as an uncertainty. He wanted the kids to handle it really.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:26 pm

And again, we only know he really could have taken care of Fat Boo because he actually admitted it later. He specifically said "I could have beaten the fat Majin Boo with Super Saiyan 3 back then, but I didn't want to." There is conclusive, straightforward dialogue telling the readers that Goku was being dishonest in that case, as well as his reasons why.

But there's no such thing for his claim that Super Boo was too strong for himself or Vegeta. We the readers are given no indication that he was lying or hiding anything there. Being told that Goku was lying in one instance does not automatically mean he's lying elsewhere. That kind of assumption is downright nonsensical, and only pops up when someone wants Goku to be lying.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:23 am

Saturnine wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:37 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am
I am sorry but at this point you deny to even believe what's mentioned in manga, when 3 of 4 expressions in manga were gag expression.
Are you for real now? Just read those panels to check for myself and I see nothing out of character for Goku. If anything, Goku's lighteartedness may be played up a little bit here to accentuate him arguing with Vegeta. Their arguments at that point in the story were pretty comical after all. Nothing that would invalidate anything Goku was saying.

At this point Goku was telling everyone that he is no match for Fat boo too and later on admitted that he's stronger than Fat boo like Super boo so...
Most difficult does not imply strongest. It implies what was later shown to be true - that unlike Super Buu he can't be reasoned with, he's volatile, insane and destroys stuff with no provocation at all. On top of that even SSj3 Goku alone can't really give him pause. If that doesn't make him more difficult than any other Buu, than I don't know what would.
That doesn't Make sense, the only new information Elder Kaioshin was told about was just that he absorbed 2 gods that's it. There's no way he would call him most difficult just because of that. Gotenks-Boo was also gonna destroy the planet and he can't be reasoned with as well like how he never waited for Goku and forced him to go ssj3 to fight him. Pure Boo was holding back and toying around unlike Evil Boo who is pragmatic and never holds back. Evil Boo not only fights but thinks 2 steps ahead and is almost impossible to beat because even when he was close to losing to Vegetto he was still plotting things, if Elder Kaioshin meant just in difficulty and not in power then no doubt Evil Boo is more difficult.

And you don't seem to understand that by this point in the story both Goku and Vegeta know better than to judge someone by their size. When Goku said they might be able to manage something, he must have considered the ki size. Hell, even the fact that he agreed to take turns fighting him with Vegeta already tells you everything you know about Kid Buu's power. Goku wouldn't do that with any other Buu and he knew it - he'd get killed in one blow.
Goku says he "might" be able to manage something yet never mentioned the reason even though previously he kept on talking about Ki even though Vegeta isn't a dummy and he can sense it too, it's obviously for informing viewers. You don't seem to understand that it's a common Toriyama gag to make final most powerful forms smaller and making characters underestimate them. Your argument is all assumptions since neither dende nor Kaioshins who were keeping an eye on the battle, talked about his ki going down.


It's not "vague interpretations" when you later see it backed up with feats. We've never seen Goku attempt to fight Super Buu in the manga, and the only time he had a chance , he was too afraid to and said both he and Vegeta would get killed. On the other hand, he was able to trade blows evenly with Kid Buu, only later faltering because of SSj3's bad stamina and power drainage.
Pure Boo was toying with everyone, Goku said that no matter what he does Pure Boo keeps coming back and was having fun. Need proof? Even Satan survived a punch and never dies, this is clear example of how much he was toying with them. He could have Killed Good Boo or could have destroyed Kaioshin Realm anytime he wants yet he was having fun. Goku overestimated his Power, he says in one minute he can gather ki only to realize after 1 minute that it's not enough which proves how much panicked he was. When Piccolo Daimao first fought him, Goku thought he can kill him, what happened? Even though Goku said he can kill him, still he almost died.
Because he was still strong enough to resist anything bar fusion, plus he immediately started destroying planets after he was reborn? It's not like anyone other than Goku, Gotenks or Gohan in the entire universe could hope to put a stop to Buu, so in this context it doesn't matter if he was weaker - his power tier was still insane. Also, with Super Buu you didn't have to worry about him blowing up pretty much everything in the universe into nonexistence - he was more about having fun and eating candy than complete obliteration of everything.
That's headcanon, the attitude of Kaioshins changed the moment they saw Pure Boo and even before Boo blew earth. You're reaching out, in DBZ escalations is proportionate to difficulty. You completely ignore how Gotenks-Boo was also trying to blow up earth for fun. And his next plan was to destroy everything after he absorbed Vegetto, what are you talking about?
Because he never called him the "strongest" - it's you interpreting "most difficult" as "strongest" simply because you want it to be so - while at the same time readily accusing others of twisting the statements and headcanon.
Manga never implied Kid Boo ki was downgrade from Super Boo. If you are basing off confidence then Vegeta on Namek >>> Freeza because he was confident of beating Freeza. Kaioshin never ever recommended Gohan to one shot Boo, here we go evidence 2. Even when Genki-Dama was close to failing he never recommended Gohan.
One can't be "biased" towards Gohan being stronger than Kid Buu, because Gohan WAS stronger than Kid Buu - he was considerably stronger than Gotenks, who was already considered by Goku enough to handle Fat Buu at mere Super Saiyan - something he himself would need SSj3 to do (yet opted not to do immediately). If Gohan is stronger than SSj3 Goku, then he's also necessarily stronger than Kid Buu.
If Gohan was stronger than Kid Boo then he would never choose Genki-Dama. Kaio told him that it's only for last resort, plus he even told that they need both Gohan and Gotenks to fight together to stand a chance near Boo. Goku isn't so dense that he would chose risky solution if his Son is strong enough to one shot him, considering he never implied Gohan can one shot Kid Boo and atleast needed to fight together with Gotenks to stand a chance contrary to him thinking Gohan can one shot Piccolo-Boo.
And there you have it! Super Buu is also a fused Buu. Or are you going to ignore how Mr. Buu continued to exist independently after Kid Buu was killed? Super Buu was not an A+B addition like regular absorptions, it was clearly a huge power boost much akin to a fusion. Then again, Huge Buu was shown to be even stronger than Super Buu, meaning the South Kaioshin gave Kid Buu a huge amount of power when he absorbed him, and Super Buu could simply access a portion of that power (or all of it, but still dampened by Dai Kaioshin's influence).
South Kaioshin can't give him power because Dabra explicitly stated they can't use Kaioshin Ki which clearly implies that it won't work on Boo's Power up. Your assumption make no sense, how can one Kaioshin power him up but other downgrade him because he has Pure Heart? Gohan also has Pure Heart so if that was needed to power him down Gohan should have made him weaker. Plus, it was after Vegeta removed Kaioshin influence that his power started to shoot up. When did that happen before? Why would someone's power start shooting up if source is taken out? He can't access the South Kaioshin ki because there is no one in him so he has to feed off his own unrestricted power. There is no implications about that ki ever going down or him nonsensically getting weaker than Super Boo after just getting power for one panel?
What sense would that make if Goku was doing well enough on his own and was only restricted by his transformation gradually wearing him out?
Read the Manga, i am talking about when he loses ssj3 and is talking about having Gohan and Gotenks alongside him, Vegeta and Fat Boo to fight Pure Boo.
If it wouldn't be that great, what's the point of even making these two forms? Gotenks was said by Goku to be able to easily beat Fat Buu, and Goku had no idea Gotenks would be able to go SSj3 at that point. Super Buu took SSj3 from Gotenks to even match, and even that was after Goten and Trunks trained in the RoSaT to power up considerably. Indeed, initial statements about Super Buu's power didn't suggest a huge power increase, but it was all proven wrong in the Gotenks fight, where even Piccolo admitted he had completely misjudged Buu and that Gotenks can't beat him.
Dude read the Manga again, Gotenks almost came close to killing Super Boo with Ghost Kamikaze Attack, only lost due to Boo coming back from ashes which they missed.
That Pure Buu was all by himself was just an excuse, the real reason Goku went against him alone was that he thought he had a chance, even though it probably wouldn't be easy. Vegeta later said that SSj3 Goku with fully gathered ki should be able to muster enough power to obliterate Kid Buu all on his own. While that never happened, this still stands in stark contrast to Goku's statements regarding him fighting Super Buu, as well as Gotenks' power.
Yea let's ignore what's stated in narrative and character not even mentioning Ki decrease and admitting that situation is dangerous. Vegeta thought Goku was holding back, he says that before he was told that Goku isn't holding back for him. Why did Goku chose Genki-Dama against Vegeta? Because he was out of option and there was no one to beat him. Why did Goku chose Genki Dama against Freeza? Because he was out of option and there was no one strong enough. It's same with Boo. His implication doesn't even imply that Gohan is enough, "oh, I know you're gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too", this was the discarded in favour of Super Genki-Dama.
Goku and Vegeta just went a bit in over their heads. But it was a matter of thinking someone's power was 1, while in fact it was like 1,1 - creating unforeseen difficulties. It's not like Goku saying he had underestimated Buu implies anything beyond that he actually might not be able to close the fight as he is now. That's still different from Super Buu, who was not even in the same league, and hence fighting him would have been entirely pointless.
Dude, Goku clearly said he was acting too cool and potara was better. There Pegg clearer evidence then that, Goku was in the same situation either way in Boo's stomach when he had to fight him.
Shin was optimistic because he didn't expect Vegetto to defuse, and as Goku later stated, Vegetto would have been able to end Kid Buu in a single ki blast. As for that "absorptions" line - as many have pointed out, there is no plural as such in Japanese grammar, and he referred only to the "heart that Buu gained through absorption". Did you see Buu gain any "heart" after he absorbed the South Kaioshin? Not likely.

we already know from older evidence that Kaioshin can't power boo up. That's why after just getting to the backstory of boo absorbing the 2 Kaioshins in past, and connecting it with Vegeta detaching then, Elder Kaioshin asked if he was the most difficult boo.

Yeah, because it would have been an easy victory with Potara. But making things harder for himself for the sake of a good battle is something Goku does. In stories not just villains can break a situation or do something they'll later regret, you know.
And Goku overestimated himself here.
We are explicitly shown him getting stronger from Super Buu when he transformed into the huge form. What is that if not making him stronger? I know what you're going to answer, but a Buu fused of two Buus getting even stronger as a single Buu but with the Kaioshin's influence isn't "gaining power", then I don't know what is.
There was no one in him when his ki started going up suddenly and there was no one to feed power off, connect these 2 things along with the fact that he never stopped transforming and kept going on and on. Did cell started getting stronger after he puked 18 out? (not counting self destruction). No one gets stronger with power source taken out.
You're still missing the point entirely. Super Buu was not even in the same tier as them. Kid Buu was much closer to their realm, that's why they thought they could handle him right away. Even if he was a bit too strong for them, that's still different than getting obliterated in a single attack, which is what would have happened to them if Super Buu stayed in that form.
Yea Goku was so afraid of Super Boo that he goes back in base near Boocolo who was at one point charging him in Bootenks form.

And yet this didn't keep you from conveniently ignoring all the statements about Super Buu's ki past the initial ones? :D
I am talking about Pure Boo here. What makes you think Pure Boo ki can't fluctuate? Why are Goku and Vegeta freaked out when he screams then?
Oh yeah? I'll remind you that 100% Freeza was a super muscular version of Final Form Freeza, just like Huge Buu was a super muscular version of Kid Buu. If non-final forms are included, 2nd form Freeza is in essence nothing but a bigger version of 1st form Freeza. Indeed - if completely different, smaller forms have shown by Toriyama to be stronger than larger ones. But something that looks like a bigger version of another form with few alterations, was practically always stronger :wink:

No one is counting that, i am talking about Freeza's size being smaller than his 3rd form. Also loose logic, Buffed up Freeza is still smaller than 3rd form lol.
Because that's what happens if someone with roughly equal power attacks you. Add Buu's great regenerative abilities and Goku's attacks understandably had little effect. Goku was getting weaker as the fight went on too. This doesn't prove that a stronger fighter couldn't obliterate Buu thanks to their superior power.

In fact, the whole decision to go for the Genki Dama was probably Goku and Vegeta thought they had enough wiggle room that they could even afford to go for it. It was not a desperate, last-ditch decision like you're making it out to be. They could always have brought Gotenks or Gohan in to clean up, but kowing that, they just opted to let the Earthlings collectively handle it - to prove a point.
Nothing about the fight implied Goku got weaker until he started charging ki for a minute. Yea Goku and Vegeta were totally not desperate yet they were literally begging for help and Goku even calls earthlings "Stupid Bastards". No one is stupid to unnecessarily force people to help them then beg them when one person could kill him. That's nonsense writing from any standard. Funny thing is, Vegeta after refusing Gohan's help thought that Kid Boo seeing Genki Dama meant doom. Why would he not bother asking Gohan for help even then but think it's doom? He then goes ahead to let Boo beat him to pulp then after he was unable to move, asked Goku to take both him and boo down. Which character will do this stunt that he's willing to die but not ask for direct help? Is this your objective analysis? :D :D :D


In fact no - genki isn't the same as ki. Genki is the "life energy" that only consitutes one part of ki - it's not directly translatable as powerlevel and it's been heavily implied that a single person, no matter how strong, couldn't fuel a Genki Dama entirely.
Genki is energy, that's why Goku just by gathering energy from plants and animals was able to damage Vegeta, and Vegeta already told Goku that he's gonna take as much Ki as he can.

No they don't. According to your logic, Gohan is below Buu, then Freeza is below the energy of a few planets' woth of plants and animals :D Again, genki does not translate directly to powerlevel, never has.
Genki translates to energy. It's the basic life energy just like Ki. That's why Genki-Dama is called "Ball of energy" by Kuririn in namek.
If you're so desperate to bring out-of-universe considerations into this, why are you so quick to ignore the very reason Kid Buu was created? It's pretty well-established that Toriyama had intended on ending the arc with Gohan defeating Buu, but that didn't sit well with Goku-loving fans from Japan, so he had to go another way. He had to create a form that Goku would be able to stand up to on his own, and he did a considerably good job of it, though he probably couldn't foresee the mess that would create - as you are right now proving yourself.

Also, this was never about liking Gohan or wanting him to be the best. Stop projecting. This is simply about following basic power chains, established solidly earlier in the manga.
You still buy that bs rumour created by the same western fans who think Gohan > Kid Boo?
Yea everything you said is headcanon, if he wanted to to weaken Super boo to make boo easy for Goku, then Grey Boo was enough, also Goku hardly even had a proper fight and instantly was forced to rely on outside help. He did such a good job that he did 0 damage to Pure Boo despite shooting 2 Kamehamehas and what is the result? Boo lollygagging around. Are you Toriyama's neighbor? How do you know he necessarily listened to fans and weakened the villain to make Goku able to match him even though Goku hardly did any significant damage to him and was forced to rely on help.
I've already explained above why he's considered more difficult above, and there's really nothing more to it than that.
Headcanons
To let Goku be the one to win the day according to fan demand?
:crazy:
By gaining the heart he got through absorption*
Because there's no plural but he never singled out South Kaioshin for powering him up.
Yes they did, and yes he was shown to be stronger. Unless you think a directly larger and bulkier form of a previous one can be weaker - which is something Toriyama doesn't do, however you like to think he likes "subverting expectations". Yeah, guess Freeza's first form was stronger than his second one, because bigger doesn't always mean stronger? :D
Totally ignored what is stated in interviews.
Again - it's not the same thing to underestimate an opponent who appears to be within reach, and knowing that an opponent several times stronger than your best will kill you immediately. Don't you think? Also, Goku was never shown to be taking a particularly bad beating from Kid Buu in their fight, they were evenly matched through and through. Feats take precedence over statements in situations like these, besides since that was the final fight, drama had to be played up a bit.
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Nothing here implies Kid Boo was weaker than Super Boo. Nothing. Goku even uses "strategy" not "he's far weaker i can beat him". By beating i am referring to Vegeta not Goku, who refused Gohan and Gotenks help but was was willing to die along with Boo with Genki Dama, yea he would magically become a brainless stubborn man to die but not ask for direct help lol.
Goku said he'd die against Super Buu, simple as that. There really shouldn't be any discussion beyond this point.

Just like he told Piccolo he can't beat Fat boo? Just like he thought gotenks and Gohan needed to fight together to stand a chance against Kid boo? Anything going against your "objective analysis" isn't worth discussion, right?
You're under the wrong assumption that everything Toriyama ever wrote would make perfect sense. He didn't plan very far ahead when writing the manga and he had to think onf his feet. The whole point of introducing Kid Buu was to give Goku a villain to defeat, not a result of a well-thought out storyline created months or years in advance. You seem to be thinking that everything should make perfect sense and the stakes should be always escalating. But what do we get when there's instant pressure to redirect a story to something the fans want with minimal notice?
Yea he would not make final villain the strongest even though that's what he always does but he would downgrade him despite the fact that Goku and Boo hardly even have a proper fight other than little sparing. I guess he received a mail from a powerscaling fan to make a villain weaker than God Gohan.
Don't you think saying that in the midst of a climactic final fight would have made the final struggle seem anti-climactic? If anything, I think that was averted by Toriyama to keep up the appearances of the stakes being high. I know I'd do the same thing - he just had to clean up after writing himself in a corner, basically. Again, stop pretending the Buu arc is the pinnacle of writing prowess. It never was.

as expected you only take statements conveniently when they fit your arguments.
I don't think it 's about western fans, really. But when you stop for a second and think about it, the alternative to the above is a villain with like 8 different forms, most of which occupying the space in terms of power between SSj2 and SSj3. What's even the point of having 5 forms of Buu, all of which are weak enough for SSj3 Goku to defeat? What's the point of creating vastly different looking iterations of Buu, each said to be stronger than the last, if SSj3 Goku could have beaten them all all along, in your opinion?

It's clear that the escalation was followed by Toriyama initially, and for a while too. First we got SSj3 Goku vs Fat Buu. Then Goku said someone stronger than him would come to fight, and we got Gotenks vs Super Buu - Gotenks needed SSj3 to stand up to Super Buu, while Goku previously stated that SSj from Gotenks would be enough to handle Fat Buu. Then we got Gohan, who was even beyond SSj3 Gotenks, and for the strongest form of Buu with Gohan absorbed, it took Vegetto to handle him. Do you honestly believe that after all these escalations of power there was a possibility to make the next Buu even stronger, but have SSj3 Goku be able to fight him solo?
Never said he can kill Super Boo. Pure Boo was never damaged even a little so no, Goku was never on par with him. Goku instantly regrets refusing potara and admitted he was acting cool so his willingness to face Pure Boo should not be used as grounds to powerscale Boo.
Which is correct, because Super Buu is fused, he's a fusion of the newly created Pure Evil Buu and Mr. Buu :D
No, it was just Strongest.
It's been demonstrated to you countless times in this thread already that you're wrong on this and that these chapters don't prove anything you're implying they do.

Based on headcanons. After Boo's ki starts rising there's no mention of it going down and Goku even on Kaioshin planet never mentioned Ki dropping.


Actually I'd argue that Kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu would be more of a subversion of expectations than anything you're saying, because thus far every form of Buu was stronger than the previous ;)
Just because Vegeta thought he will get weaker, he should get weaker, right?

The reasons for this have also already been given to you.
- Because Japanese fans wanted to see Goku save the day, and with previous forms of Buu it wouldn't have been possible. Toriyama, unlike Toei Animation, actually treats his pre-established power levels seriously, and since Super Buu could kill Goku in one blow, he had to think of another solution. That solution was Kid Buu.
- You're putting too much stress on this being the "final fight". Toriyama tried to make it seem as if the stakes were huge AFTER he had introduced Kid Buu - and removing Gohan and Gotenks from the fight was probably intended to preserve the drama. But the decision itself was not something that had been planned for long in advance, and therefore Kid Buu can't be compared to the final forms of Freeza or Cell.
Fat Boo can kill Goku in one blow too since Goku called himself weak. If Goku was the one to kill kid boo then it would be different but he had to rely on outside help so that totally throws your logic of "downgrading him for Goku" logic.
Darkprince410 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:47 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am

I am sorry but at this point you deny to even believe what's mentioned in manga, when 3 of 4 expressions in manga were gag expression. Then I can also say, Elder Kaioshin was satisfied with Evil Boo but After seeing Pure Boo he calls him most difficult implying strongest.

Again, "We did it, This way we might be able to manage something" is reply to Vegeta's "He's Shrunk quite a bit", it's simple, his Ki never went down otherwise Vegeta would say "Sentoryuk" or "Pawwa" or "Ki" went down, you just don't understand what the point of Exposition and dialogue is. When Gohan-Boo reverts to Evil Boo Goku told Vegeta about his Ki getting smaller even though Vegeta can sense, when Pure Boo is shrunk he comments about his size when Goku can see him too, so when characters talk about these things it's for informing the viewers. Do you realize that manga is written by Toriyama and characters don't act on their own? You can't assume things based on vague interpretations especially when they go against the precedence set before, that is atleast one character mentioning drop in power. Not even Dende or Kaioshin mention it, on contrary they stop celebrating after seeing Pure Boo. Why would they stop celebrating after seeing Boo getting weaker? You only new things Elder Kaioshin got to know about Pure Boo was.... He absorbed 2 People in the past, before he called him the Most Difficult Boo, why would he call him strongest Boo based on just the fact that he absorbed two gods when even Evil Boo shows that feat?

No, you don't even make sense. When I show these examples :
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"

Everything is as explicit as anything can get, I bold marked the key words, you are just willfully glossing over my statement which came way later than Goku's " we did it" and his fight with Pure Boo. It's so simple unless one is badly biased for Evil Boo or Gohan being Stronger than Pure Boo. I mean my Favorite Boo is Gotenks-Boo but I can be objective enough to admit that Pure Boo is strongest Unfused Boo. Goku thinks they atleast need Gohan and Gotenks to fight together with them, which means Gohan, Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo teaming up to take down Pure Boo.

Now if he said "you are gonna get Gohan to beat boo" but no, what he says is totally different unless you start making assumptions again.

Do you realize that he just now crushed potara and said he wants to beat Boo with his own powers? What option he has now? For your information, never did they imply that Gohan can finish Boo alone, never.
Do you ignore powerscaling too? Goku was confident enough of Killing Majin Boo and that means he was stronger than Majin Boo and Evil Boo was an outgrowth from Majin Boo too, so the Power difference between Majin Boo before splitting and Evil Boo won't even be that great. Goku is above Majin Boo and so is Evil Boo, there's no reason Goku won't be able to go Toe-to-Toe against Evil Boo considering he is stronger than his next weakest form already so when he said that he can't Take Evil Boo, he never told Anyone including us that He can even stand against Majin Boo before splitting, but what is the first thing he does on Kaioshin Realm? He admits that there is no point in holding back and then told Vegeta the truth, which clearly means that he was hiding his Power and was never giving his all. His reasoning for taking on Pure Boo alone was because Pure Boo was all by himself and had no one inside him to give power. Evil Boo had Good Boo but Vegeta removed him so Pure Boo is the last Boo who's alone and Goku loves fighting one-on-one, he thinks Evil Boo after absorbing People was a cheat that's why he wanted to face Pure Boo alone.
Goku and Vegeta are already out of options and at the end of their rope and are open to any ideas which can help in taking Pure Boo down, so you are coming up with another headcanon.

Dabra explicitly mentioned that they can't Use Kaioshin ki to power up Boo's revival, then we even see Metamoran fusion staying intact in Boo's body but Potara diffusing the moment they remove barrier, which already hint at Majin Powers not working with Demon Powers. When Elder Kaioshin saw Boo absorb Vegetto, keep in mind that Kibitoshin was optimistic and never thought Pure Boo will emerge. His celebration after seeing Evil Boo to terrified expression after witnessing Pure Boo already tell how he never expected things to take this turn. It's only because Elder Kaioshin knows about Kaioshins not making Boo stronger that only after he was told that in past Boo absorbed 2 Kaioshins, he came to conclusion that Pure Boo was most difficult and it's only after that, the Kaioshin mentions drop in Power through absorptions. Why should Kibitoshin mention each and everything? There's no reason for him to unnecessarily mention the drop in his power through absorptions when That time hasn't came yet.

1) because it won't power up Boo, how's that so hard to conclude? They were originally planning to steal ki from participants from Tenkaichi Budokai who are definitely weaker than Kaioshins, you think they would resort to take energy from fodder humans but not Kaioshins?

2) because this same Kaioshin at that point never saw the extent of the Saiyan powers but after seeing Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo fight, he has seen enough and obviously he's used to seeing how Saiyans fight. Its not just Kibitoshin who got scared after seeing Pure Boo but Elder Kaioshin too. Let me inform you that Elder Kaioshin was taking preemptive measures to take down Boo like powering up Boo or telling Goku to use Potara instead of buying time to use Fusion dance with Gohan, these things prove that he's paying attention to fights and so it's only sensible that he saw the rise in power in Pure Boo that his attitude changed after seeing Pure Boo. Hell, he even calls Goku "idiot" and literally screams at him for not using potara fusion which proves that Pure Boo was not a small deal, Elder Kaioshin powered up and saw Gohan, still he recommended Potara to Goku.

3) yet we are never told about South Kaioshin making him powerful but we know that Kaioshin ki is useless to Boo. You don't make sense with "burning remnant ki" thing, you can't start accessing power after the source is cut off, he kept on transforming in reverse and the funny thing is no one mentioned about Ki dropping other than your vague assumptions, when Goku and Vegeta are guilty of judging opponents by size too like how Goku comments after seeing Freeza or Vegeta despite having ability to sense ki on Namek thinking he can kill Freeza. Ki is not definite, it can fluctuate that's the reason why these assumptions of characters can't be totally accurate. On top of that, it's classic Toriyama gag where the final transformation gives the impression that it will get bigger only to get smaller and the "oh he's big, lol he's smaller" and then "you got smaller i can take you on", that's the same thing here that's why no one mentioned Ki getting down.

4) show me a proof in original manga that Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo took 1 hour. now Dabra's Ki sensing abilities are questionable too, as expected from you :D :D :D.

Goku never talked about him having power to take down Boo, but just the fact that he needs to charge enough ki in one minute if he wants to obliterate Boo. That's no different than anyone gathering all their ki to take down an enemy, what happened after one minute of charging Ki? Goku said he needs more which totally proves my point that he was in heat of battle and struggling with his decision to take down Boo with his own power in place of using Potara. Obviously he was going for a Final Kamehameha attack but it was gonna be impossible because you can't get stronger out of nowhere, he already mentioned that Boo keeps coming back without getting weaker no matter what Goku does.


As expected you are going against what's written:

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!

Genki-Dama has ki, that's why back in Saiyan arc, when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki-Dama, Goku told him that it's a collection of Ki he gathered from entire World and even when Kuririn handles it he talks about how big ki it is. Even Kaio told that it allows the user to gather "Energy" from surroundings.
You don't get how "Genki" means origin of Ki, the Translation of "Genki" is energy, it's a noun. It's the core of Ki, that's why in DBZ, it is interchangeably used with the term "Chikara/Power"
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”

Regardless of what you believe, The implications already say that Pure Boo is above Gohan that's why Elder Kaioshin reaction even after he sees Genki-Dama almost failing was not call Gohan, same with everyone. There's a reason Elder Kaioshin called Pure Boo Most Difficult Boo and even till the end never said or asked them to bring Gohan back to finish Boo even when he saw Genki-Dama fail.

It's funny how you add your own headcanons everytime the Genki-Dama idea from Vegeta is introduced. Yea he totally wants to beg uninterested humans to give energy then is ready to let Pure Boo beat him if it buys Goku time then is ready to die with Pure Boo when he's too hurt to get up, just because he wants to use Genki-Dama soooo badly :D :D :D :D. You not only rely on your headcanons but go against established trope of Toriyama of escalations, the final form being a weaker one for no reason just that powerscaling fans can call their Gohan the best :crazy: .


I guess you love your stories to have plotholes and nonsensical logic. Just because Pure Boo absorbs people, he's most Troublesome even though in DBZ, Power is proportionate to Difficulty. No one would call Mecha Freeza more difficult than Androids even Though Freeza is Universal emperor plus this is a series of escalations, just because he's Pure Evil he's troublesome? What is that logic? Evil Boo not only fights but always plots strategies and is 2 steps ahead of his opponent even if he's close to losing, that's way more difficult than anything Pure Boo can do. Pure Boo is strongest but can't plan things as efficiently as Evil Boo does. You are twisting the narrative, Toriyama's storytelling is simple, DBZ is about escalations and that's why Pure Boo is Most Difficult due to Power. That's why his size is small to give wrong impression of him and it was the reason Goku and Vegeta underestimated him.

Why would he create "Most Troublesome Boo", "Most strongest unfused Boo" for no reason? This is Pure headcanon which leads to unnecessary debates for 2 decades. It's obvious that Pure Boo is stronger and that's why Toriyama especially makes kibitoshin mention "Lower power through absorptions" and no one implied that South Kaioshin powered him up, when Kibitoshin told about him, he just implied how even their best fell to him.
What you're implying or referring to as "gag expressions" aren't gag expressions though. I looked at those pages a number of times, and nothing about any of them remotely come across as "gag". Likewise, Rou Kaioushin only asks if he's the most "most troublesome" because of the description of Buu's past that Kibitoshin gave him, which, up to that point, had made no mention of Buu's power decreasing at all from the absorption of Dai Kaioushin. Kibitoshin simply says that Buu became kindler and gentler, to which Rou Kaioushin said that this makes Pure Buu the original, most troublesome one. As such, that even more firmly establishes he's talking about Buu's uncontrollable and evil nature, not his strength.

You say for us to not assume things based on vague interpretations, when you've been doing just that a number of times now. It would be extremely out of character for Goku to judge Buu on his size, and assume they stood a better chance now, if his strength was even higher than it was before, especially when he had previous established, without contradiction, that he and Vegeta could stand no chance against Evil Buu. Vegeta is the only one we can assume was judging Buu by his size, but it'd be out of character for Goku to do so.

Rou Kaioushin no longer celebrating can easily be interpreted by him being confused about the existence of this new Buu, and Rou Kaioushin never once calls him the strongest. He inquires if that makes him the most troublesome, with all context establishing that he was referring to Buu being uncontrollable, not his strength.

You keep bringing up those two lines, but again, neither of them establish anything. Namely because in the original dialogue, it's unclear if Goku is saying "they" when referring to what he thinks the wish is. Because there's no plural in Japanese, his statement comes across as this:
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so he/they can fight.”
Evil Buu is readily established multiple times over to be vastly more powerful than Fat Buu was, so even though Goku felt he could take on Fat Buu doesn't mean in the slightest that he could take on Evil Buu. Even going with more conservative estimates, he was multiple times more powerful than Fat Buu, but some of the more out there estimates put him hundreds of times Fat Buu's strength. Regardless though, Evil Buu is readily far more powerful than Fat Buu, so Goku's ability to take Fat Buu on is meaningless. Likewise, Goku only admitted he could have taken on and beaten Fat Buu, and that he was lying when he said earlier that he couldn't. Assuming he could have taken on Evil Buu too and that he was lying is baseless, since there's no evidence supporting that he could.

1) Because we're not told why. You say it won't power up Buu, but that's never said. You're making assumptions when no information is given. All we know is they "couldn't use" Kaioushin's ki, but we're not told why. Remember, it was Spopovitch and Yamu who were left to their own devices as far as gathering ki for Buu, so what they decided on isn't indicative of what Babidi and Dabra were wanting or expecting. They could have readily just been hoping to avoid Kaioushin's eye until it was too late, and when Goku and the others showed up, Babidi and Dabra decided to use three of them.

2) Rou Kaioushin didn't get scared until after he saw and was told how unpredictable and uncontrollable Buu was. The moment Buu formed, he tried and later succeeded in destroying the Earth, and that's all the reason he had to be scared. And he only recommended the Potara because Gohan was already dead and out of the picture (Goku and Vegeta were the only two options at the time around to fight). He makes absolutely no mention or suggestion at all that he felt Pure Buu was more powerful than Evil Buu, just more dangerous due to his unpredictable nature.

3) Goku never makes any comments about Freeza's size or judges him based on his size. I don't know where you're coming from with that. Goku, at no point, ever shows that he judges someone based on their physical appearance if he's capable of sensing their ki. Since it would be out of character for him to do so, and there's no evidence whatsoever that he decided to at this point, Goku's comment on Buu supports that Buu's power decreased. Buu transformed to South Kaioushin Buu, stopped briefly, then transformed again to Pure Buu. It wasn't a continual process given how things were shown and described, so the only logical explanation is that he had influence within him still that needed burned off. Why would it not have been an instantaneous transformation otherwise? It took a considerable length of time for Buu to revert from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, when by your own admission all the other transformations were instantaneous.

4) It doesn't matter what I think or not. Super established that it was due to the one hour time limit of the earrings that Vegetto de-fused, so we have to accept that.

Except that he said that he was charging up back to full power, and that he could take Buu out with "all his might". The only reason he said he needed more was because he was beginning to lose ki faster than he was drawing it in, not that he needed more ki than his own maximum.
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
Goku: “Da…Damn it…Damn it…!! …It shouldn’t be…It shouldn’t be like this…!! My…my power…my power is…Fa…falling off…”
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”
I'm not going against what is written. You are going against what Toriyama established and the definition of genki. Genki, 元気, is defined as health energy, as in the energy someone or something has when in good health. That is why taking all that could be donated left the random man completely winded and Kaioushin unable to teleport. They weren't in good enough health to do so. The words ki and genki can only be exchangeable when referring to genki, not when referring to ki, so every time the term ki is used in relation to the Genki Dama, they're referring to genki, and not ki. So when Gohan donated to the Genki Dama, he was still just donating his genki.

Rou Kaioushin only asked if Buu was the most troublesome Buu in regards to his evil and uncontrollable nature, not his strength (as Kibitoshin had made no mention or suggestion of Buu being weakened by Dai Kaioushin at the point that he asked it). Likewise, as said, Goku and Vegeta had already ignored his suggestions many times now, so there's no logical reason for him to make another suggestion that they'd ignore, especially when they've made up their minds about it.

You are the one adding your head canon to everything. It is established quite clearly why Vegeta wanted the Genki Dama used, and that was because he wanted the people of the Earth to help with their own defense for once. Saying he had any other reason for choosing it is baseless and unsupported.

Gohan being more powerful than Pure Buu and Pure Buu being weaker than Evil Buu has no plotholes to it. It fits everything within the manga perfectly well and doesn't require baseless and unfounded leaps of logic. It doesn't require Goku suddenly believing he could beat someone stronger than someone he said he stood no chance against. It doesn't require Goku just randomly judging someone by their size when beforehand he's never done so if he could sense their ki. It doesn't require assuming the Genki Dama works differently than it clearly is explained to, etc.

Your Freeza and Artificial Humans argument doesn't work, because with the Artificial Humans, we are actually given evidence indicating that they are more powerful and more dangerous than Freeza was. With Pure Buu, none of that's there. There's an implied and indicated power drop in comparison to Evil Buu, and nothing is said to indicate or support otherwise.

Kibitoshin means Buu losing power through absorption (again, no plural in Japanese, so you can't say that's what it is) as a result of him gaining a heart. We're also told he only gained his heart from absorbing Dai Kaioushin, thus South Kaioushin did not weaken him. In turn, we are told beforehand that absorptions made Buu stronger and made him transform, with Kibitoshin, at the time, not contradicting it. So we combine all that information and we're left with South Kaioushin making Buu stronger and Dai Kaioushin making him weaker. That's it.

I'm not twisting the narrative. The simplest, most straightforward narrative is Pure Buu being weaker than Evil Buu. It takes the least amount of assumptions or hurdle jumping to make it work.
Someone being purely evil doesn't make them Most difficult Boo. It's simple, Elder Kaioshin got to know about Boo having 2 gods in him, Vegeta separated him so it's obvious he's talking about power here.

The funny thing is you mention contradiction because Goku already made a contradiction when he told that he could have killed boo. You think it would not be out of character for Goku to mention decrease in ki size especially when it's supposed to his source of relief here and how he is known for using that term more than anyone whenever he notices a fluctuation? So now he never mentions it here and then even when he reached Kaioshin Realm he never bothered to mention it there too? That's totally not out of character... Goku's reaction was in response to Vegeta's comment.

It's not just Elder Kaioshin but Kibitoshin goes from celebrating after seeing Evil Boo to getting scared after seeing Pure Boo and he's keeping track of Fluctuations. In DBZ power is proportionate to difficulty, so something can only be more difficult due to its power.

The direct translation from Japanese one, word to word is :
Goku: “I know, you’re planning to bring gohan and gotenks to fight along us"

I have checked both Japanese manga and anime and he's clearly referring to needing the help of both to atleast stand a chance. You CAN'T refute it.

1) if their original plan was to take Ki from Participants in Tenkaichi Budokai who are definitely weaker than Gods but are counting the Ki of Kaioshins out, this means it won't help them. You are back when headcanons.
2) there is zero implication of Gohan > Pure Boo. If Gohan was above Pure Boo, Elder Kaioshin would make a mention atleast. Someone can't be more difficult just because of nature, in DBZ if one opponent is powerful, they can easily make a fool of the weaker one. Goku and Gohan after achieving their respective transformations made a fool out of Villains they were previously struggling against.

3) Read the Manga again, you purposely left it then i guess. If power goes down, Goku mentions the Ki dropping especially if we take into account that it's supposed to be his source of relief. Him not mentioning ki dropping as the reason is out of character if you think he judged Pure Boo from ki. There is no mention of Ki ever coming down in manga other than your vague headcanons.
"only logical explanation" oh for whom? Yourself? Do you ask Logical Explanations for Unicorns having horns in their Heads? This burning remnant ki is assumption on your part. Even though it was lengthy, it was still nonstop transformation.

4) Super Chapter 1 features Goku image training with strongest forms and he imagines Pure Boo not Evil Boo. Dende in ongoing arc even implied that Pure Boo was the strongest.

He was never holding back with Boo and he thought one minute will be enough but one minute later he realized that it won't be enough, this goes on until he started noticing that he's losing energy. Clearly this implies he would not have won.

Genki Dama (元気玉) is a Japanese term written in Kanji and integrally connected with Daoist culture.

Genki (元気) means Origin Ki and is the transliterated term for the Chinese YuanQi (元気).
Genki is the original Ki of all matter. That is to say, matter in our world is composed of molecules, and below molecules are atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, ions, neutrinos, quarks, gluons, and progressing infinitesimally downward to more microcosmic particles.

At the very origin of all matter, in the most microcosmic realm, is our Genki. It is what lies at the core of our being, buried underneath all those many layers of particles that end with the molecules that comprise our surface body.

Genki is composed of the characteristic of the universe and is virtuous and pure. It is the higher level, original, divine part of all matter, and it is extremely dense, refined and powerful.
Thus the Genki Dama (元気玉) is a “Ball of Origin Ki” comprised of the “Essence of Heaven and Earth.”

Kaio also told that Genki Dama gathers energy from surroundings and Kuririn calls it "Basic energy of life" and nothing like Health energy headcanon you are saying.

Goku and Vegeta have no reason to ignore their suggestions at this point since they both lost to Boo and are reliant on Outside help so there's no reason for Elder Kaioshin to think he can't help. Him not mentioning Gohan as an option is illogical if he can kill Boo.

Goku's suggestion hardly implied that Gohan is enough, and if Gohan was enough, he would not have used Genki-Dama and found Vegeta's idea silly instantly. But the fact that he actually praised Vegeta after Vegeta fully explained his plan of taking every bit of Ki proves my argument.

Gohan being above Pure Boo ruins the tension. If he was stronger then it would not make sense for no one to mention his name yet give their 2 cents on already failing Genki Dama. Gohan giving his ki Yet the Genki Dama almost failing is good indicator of narrative. If Goku hadn't judged on size then he would have mentioned it, your narrative requires lots of headcanons by using "it's only logical explanation".

Actually in manga there is no mention of Ki going down so...

But that wouldnt make sense since Kibitoshin was talking about Pure Boo's power while fearing the 'most dangerous' thing which was not said by Kibitoshin but elder Kaioshin who doesnt know Pure Boo's Power, Kibitoshin was always talking about power. That's Toriyama's way of finding an excuse to justify a power up for final form.

Lol no, assuming Pure Boo is weaker for no reason means assuming many things and ignoring Toriyama's tropes. You think despite Vegeta deducing that removing Good Boo from Evil Boo will result in him getting weaker, it will get weaker? Never has a villain in final form ever got weaker, why would it now? Considering it's battle for universe. Just like Zeno, Pure Boo is example of strongest being smallest.

Miracles wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:58 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 am
Miracles wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:48 pm
It isn't. Goku outright stated Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. This is when he had SSJ3 too. So he wanted to fuse instead. Goku didn't want to fuse against Kid Buu and wanted to fight him one on one and DID that. That is what the story stated, showing that Super Buu > Kid Buu. However you falsely claim We were led to believe that Goku couldn't kill any Buu up to the Super Buu statement. Despite the fact that It was still up for debate against fat buu who would of won if Goku went all out using SSJ3 [Goku and Piccolo dialogue]. The outcome of the match was all assumption, especially since Goku wanted the kids to fight and be the savior of the earth. However, it was stated later that Goku could of killed Fat Buu and could of wasted Kid Buu with full power of SSJ3. However, Goku being able to beat Super Buu was never stated but the opposite happened with Goku outright saying Super Buu would destroy him. So your stance does not work. The story still disproves your assumptions.
Goku outright told Piccolo that he couldn't have beaten Boo even after he fought him, only to say otherwise later on.
Lets see if what you say matches up to the story...

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t knowWhen it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

As you can see...You are wrong again...Goku didn't give Piccolo a straight answer but left the outcome as an uncertainty. He wanted the kids to handle it really.
Yet he knew he could obliterate him. That's why he starts with "To tell you the truth" on Kaioshin planet.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

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Darkprince410
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:55 am

Someone being purely evil doesn't make them Most difficult Boo. It's simple, Elder Kaioshin got to know about Boo having 2 gods in him, Vegeta separated him so it's obvious he's talking about power here.

The funny thing is you mention contradiction because Goku already made a contradiction when he told that he could have killed boo. You think it would not be out of character for Goku to mention decrease in ki size especially when it's supposed to his source of relief here and how he is known for using that term more than anyone whenever he notices a fluctuation? So now he never mentions it here and then even when he reached Kaioshin Realm he never bothered to mention it there too? That's totally not out of character... Goku's reaction was in response to Vegeta's comment.

It's not just Elder Kaioshin but Kibitoshin goes from celebrating after seeing Evil Boo to getting scared after seeing Pure Boo and he's keeping track of Fluctuations. In DBZ power is proportionate to difficulty, so something can only be more difficult due to its power.

The direct translation from Japanese one, word to word is :
Goku: “I know, you’re planning to bring gohan and gotenks to fight along us"

I have checked both Japanese manga and anime and he's clearly referring to needing the help of both to atleast stand a chance. You CAN'T refute it.

1) if their original plan was to take Ki from Participants in Tenkaichi Budokai who are definitely weaker than Gods but are counting the Ki of Kaioshins out, this means it won't help them. You are back when headcanons.
2) there is zero implication of Gohan > Pure Boo. If Gohan was above Pure Boo, Elder Kaioshin would make a mention atleast. Someone can't be more difficult just because of nature, in DBZ if one opponent is powerful, they can easily make a fool of the weaker one. Goku and Gohan after achieving their respective transformations made a fool out of Villains they were previously struggling against.

3) Read the Manga again, you purposely left it then i guess. If power goes down, Goku mentions the Ki dropping especially if we take into account that it's supposed to be his source of relief. Him not mentioning ki dropping as the reason is out of character if you think he judged Pure Boo from ki. There is no mention of Ki ever coming down in manga other than your vague headcanons.
"only logical explanation" oh for whom? Yourself? Do you ask Logical Explanations for Unicorns having horns in their Heads? This burning remnant ki is assumption on your part. Even though it was lengthy, it was still nonstop transformation.

4) Super Chapter 1 features Goku image training with strongest forms and he imagines Pure Boo not Evil Boo. Dende in ongoing arc even implied that Pure Boo was the strongest.

He was never holding back with Boo and he thought one minute will be enough but one minute later he realized that it won't be enough, this goes on until he started noticing that he's losing energy. Clearly this implies he would not have won.

Genki Dama (元気玉) is a Japanese term written in Kanji and integrally connected with Daoist culture.

Genki (元気) means Origin Ki and is the transliterated term for the Chinese YuanQi (元気).
Genki is the original Ki of all matter. That is to say, matter in our world is composed of molecules, and below molecules are atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, ions, neutrinos, quarks, gluons, and progressing infinitesimally downward to more microcosmic particles.

At the very origin of all matter, in the most microcosmic realm, is our Genki. It is what lies at the core of our being, buried underneath all those many layers of particles that end with the molecules that comprise our surface body.

Genki is composed of the characteristic of the universe and is virtuous and pure. It is the higher level, original, divine part of all matter, and it is extremely dense, refined and powerful.
Thus the Genki Dama (元気玉) is a “Ball of Origin Ki” comprised of the “Essence of Heaven and Earth.”

Kaio also told that Genki Dama gathers energy from surroundings and Kuririn calls it "Basic energy of life" and nothing like Health energy headcanon you are saying.

Goku and Vegeta have no reason to ignore their suggestions at this point since they both lost to Boo and are reliant on Outside help so there's no reason for Elder Kaioshin to think he can't help. Him not mentioning Gohan as an option is illogical if he can kill Boo.

Goku's suggestion hardly implied that Gohan is enough, and if Gohan was enough, he would not have used Genki-Dama and found Vegeta's idea silly instantly. But the fact that he actually praised Vegeta after Vegeta fully explained his plan of taking every bit of Ki proves my argument.

Gohan being above Pure Boo ruins the tension. If he was stronger then it would not make sense for no one to mention his name yet give their 2 cents on already failing Genki Dama. Gohan giving his ki Yet the Genki Dama almost failing is good indicator of narrative. If Goku hadn't judged on size then he would have mentioned it, your narrative requires lots of headcanons by using "it's only logical explanation".

Actually in manga there is no mention of Ki going down so...

But that wouldnt make sense since Kibitoshin was talking about Pure Boo's power while fearing the 'most dangerous' thing which was not said by Kibitoshin but elder Kaioshin who doesnt know Pure Boo's Power, Kibitoshin was always talking about power. That's Toriyama's way of finding an excuse to justify a power up for final form.

Lol no, assuming Pure Boo is weaker for no reason means assuming many things and ignoring Toriyama's tropes. You think despite Vegeta deducing that removing Good Boo from Evil Boo will result in him getting weaker, it will get weaker? Never has a villain in final form ever got weaker, why would it now? Considering it's battle for universe. Just like Zeno, Pure Boo is example of strongest being smallest.
That's not a contradiction, because, by his own admission, he wasn't able to even try to take him out with a single full-power blast. He went about it the wrong way when he first tried fighting Pure Buu, but then never had the chance to try when it came to figuring out the other way to try and kill him. It doesn't need to be explicitly said when the implications are clear. He states he's no match for Evil Buu because Buu is too strong for them, but then maintains, for as long as he's physically capable of holding Super Saiyan 3, that he can beat Pure Buu. Even without it being directly said that his ki dropped, no one can logically look at that scenario and say that there's no power drop indicated.

Kibitoshin's terrible at sensing ki, as I've mentioned and shown time and time again. Just because he's in a panic doesn't mean much (after all, he was in a panic when it came to Pui Pui, and we saw how easily he was dispatched). As for Rou Kaioushin, again, it's directly indicated that he's asking it in regards to Buu's nature, not his strength.
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “

Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “

Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “

Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
He's asking in response to what he just heard, as he doesn't know Buu's origin yet. Kibitoshin makes no mention of Buu's power during any of the backstory, yet specifically refers to Buu being pure evil and unable to be handled until absorbing the Dai Kaioushin weakened him. Besides, if "most troublesome" was in regards to power, then you're saying that Pure Buu was more powerful than Gohan Buu, which we know is false, so "most troublesome" has to be in regards to something else in this situation.

That's not the direct translation. I gave the direct translation earlier, and the dialogue is clearly a case of either he/they, not specifically both.

1) Again, they're trying to avoid the Kaioushin getting into the mix. That's like saying why didn't Cell just constantly try to go after a member of the Z Senshi for power, and instead kept absorbing humans. It was a slower process, but a safer one since he could hide out and avoid a direct confrontation until it was too late. Same with Kaioushin. You are the one assuming it couldn't be used because it was incompatible, when that isn't stated.

2) Gohan was able to effortlessly dominate Evil Buu, and all information given to us indicates that Evil Buu was stronger than Pure Buu. As such, Gohan could defeat Pure Buu on his own. As for difficulty/troublesome, Kibitoshin's backstory for Buu indicates clearly that it's because of his nature. He makes no mention or suggestion of Buu's power until AFTER Rou Kaioushin asks if him being the first makes Buu the most troublesome one, yet his direct line before being asked speaks of him being uncontrollable before being settled down by the absorption of the Dai Kaioushin.

3) As said, it doesn't need to be stated when all the implications are clear. He says he can't beat Evil Buu. This isn't indicated to be a lie or anything of the sort. He believes he can beat Pure Buu, and this also isn't indicated to be a lie (he never got a chance, by his own admission, to try and take him out with a full power blast). Simplest way of looking at it is that he can tell Pure Buu is weaker, as it doesn't require him going against character and judging Buu by his size rather than by his ki. And no, it was not a continuous transformation. Vegeta's dialogue points this out, as he mentions how Buu is "intending" another transformation. If it was a continuous process, then there wouldn't have been a stopping point long enough for him to be like "Oh, he looks like he's going to transform again", but that is what is indicated.

4) Or it's showing him fighting enemies in the forms he's most familiar with. He only ever saw and fought Freeza in his final form. He only ever saw and fought Cell in his Perfect form. He only ever actually fought Buu in his Pure form. Again, if you're saying that Pure Buu is his actual strongest form, then you're saying that he's stronger than Gohan Buu, and that's undeniably wrong. As for Dende's comments, no, he doesn't indicate Pure Buu was the strongest, just Buu in general was the strongest overall villain.

No, by his own admission he was never able to even get his power up to full.
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
It's not that he was gathering ki, and then began gathering more than his full strength cause he thought it wasn't enough. He states, directly, that he was gathering ki, yet wasn't able to gather up to his full power before what he gathered started to be burned off. He never got back to 100% strength during the 1 min + he was attempting to gather his ki, so no, that's not an indicator that he couldn't have won.

Genki, even though it is taken from the Chinese term for the primal energy of everything, is defined as "health or vigor", and speaks of the energy one has when in good health or highly energetic. This is the case for both the noun and the adjective form of the word.

Likewise, regardless of your feelings on the matter, because of what Toriyama said, we have to treat genki as a single element that makes up ki, and not ki in general. You keep mentioning going against what is said, but if you say that genki is just ki, then you're going against what Toriyama said, because he defines it (in his universe, so it doesn't matter what its "real world" meanings are) as just one element of many (not three) that make up ki. The Genki Dama takes genki. That's it. Not ki. Not shouki. Not yuuki. Not seiki. Not any other element of ki. Just genki. So when Gohan donated to the Genki Dama, he donated what only amounted to a portion of what makes up his total ki, and not his total ki. Bringing up Kibitoshin's inability to teleport or the man being winded does not say that it took all ki, as just the removal of their good health and vigor would be enough for this situation.

I gave you the backstory that Kibitoshin gave Rou Kaioushin. Up to that point, he made no mention of Pure Buu's strength whatsoever, and only spoke of his uncontrollable nature. Since he doesn't mention or even imply anything about strength, Rou Kaioushin's comment about "most troublesome" cannot be in relation to strength. Here. Let me give you a hypothetical conversation.

Doctor A: The patient was vicious and wild, to where none of us could control him. However, once he was on medications, he became more manageable.

Doctor B: So, now that he's not on those medications again, he's back to his original, most dangerous state?

Doctor A: Yes. He's back to the way he was before, just as strong and deadly as ever. He's pure evil and absolutely remoreseless.

If you go by everything that Doctor A says when describing the "patient's" backstory to Doctor B, nothing about it implies that B is asking about how dangerous he is because of the patient's strength. He's dangerous because he was vicious and uncontrollable. That's the exact same with Buu. Rou Kaioushin asked if he was the most troublesome because he "was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle".

Having Pure Buu weaker works perfectly. Goku is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks, yet Toriyama wanted him to go at it against Buu one on one. Only way he could do that is to make a Buu weaker than Evil Buu and all his forms so that he'd be a match for Goku. Having Pure Buu be stronger completely ruins the narrative, because virtually everything told and shown to us says the opposite. One could argue quite simply that having Gohan and the boys die in the explosion of Earth was just additional means of Toriyama setting the table for it to be Goku against Buu, because otherwise they'd ruin the tension as they'd make short work of him.

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