Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:13 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:38 am

Buu can sense ki, so he'd know there were strong individuals around on Earth and have a good reason to teleport back there, and outside of using the last wish Polunga had, there wouldn't be anyone around to teleport. Kaioushin's drained of genki and Goku's pre-occupied. There's no quick way for them to get Gohan there in comparison to what they did with the Genki Dama.

That's false, they could teleport Gohan from Polunga wish. That's entirely your headcanon that Boo will only follow there and magically he won't appear near Gohan who is supposed to have the strongest Ki and if Gohan is on Earth there is no reason to fret over, how much will you stretch it?
Not "fight too", but fight in his place. If neither were as strong or stronger than he was, bringing either up to Kaioushin-kai would be a waste. He only thought it was Vegeta's idea because it was obviously an idea that he thought would work if it were a viable way for Buu to be killed.
Your logic is already debunked the moment Goku uses "And" which means both are required but there's absolutely no need to call Gotenks if Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo. There's no way you can rationalize it as Goku saying either of Gohan and Gotenks can beat Boo when he was wanting both to come and fight with them without headcanon. Gotenks ssj3 limit is 5 minutes so he will only be called if Gohan isn't enough which he clearly wasn't.

Every other time Goku comes up with an idea that Vegeta finds stupid, he insults Goku. So why would this one idea, if it was one that wouldn't work (by your logic), be so different suddenly? Goku liked the idea of the Genki Dama for the same reason Vegeta suggested it. Not because it'd be better than Gohan, but because it made sense to him. And Gohan only donated genki, as did everyone else. The Genki Dama only draws genki, so Gohan could donate everything he had, it not be enough to defeat Buu, and he himself still be stronger than Buu.
That's reaching, according to that i can also say Piccolo, Kaio and Elder Kaioshin are known for correcting Goku if they find him making mistake but no one corrected him with chosing Genki-Dama over Gohan. You're reading wayyyyyyyy too much into it, he only says "No" and you think just because he never insulted him means he knows its risky solution? :D :D :D :D :D. You are only believing what you want to believe, nothing with your narrative makes sense. Vegeta was already exhausted and close to death due to Pure Boo's hits and you think he will want more beatings and die again? You think he's gone so dumb that he wants Goku to fire Genki-Dama to take both him and Boo out but not bring Gohan? Man, your narrative has the worst kind of logic ever, in your desperate attempt you are willing to fit whatever comes into your mind just because your argument is better.

No, it's clear he's trying to calm Vegeta's fears on the matter by suggesting the two of them train to make sure that they can beat Buu one-on-one if they have to.
omg.... :crazy: everything is so clear to you that you that it makes no sense in the context even though Gohan is stronger than Vegeta but magically Goku will not talk about Gohan.

Nothing about the quote says that he lost more power than he gained. Just that the absorption that gave him his heart lowered his power.
When Cell says "Absorption of human essence" you think he's referring to one human he sucked in Gingertown? You're just intentionally misreading it entirely, it's like even if you are fed direct evidence or quote you won't admit.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s) …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
He clearly talks about Boo getting weaker after absorptions, it includes 2 Kaioshins. Also note how he says, "has returned once again to the way it was before" after talking about Power drop due to it, which means there was a power boost in Pure Boo. There's no point in telling you since you will ignore anything which goes against you or twist it to something nonsensical which fits your arguments.

Again, your arguments make no sense because after Goku and Vegeta noted Boo's ki going up after removing Good Boo, this never being refuted, you think Elder Kaioshin never meant "Most Difficult Boo" in terms of Power and Toriyama should have wrote it "Most Strongest Boo" but think By "Look he shrunk", "we might be able to manage something" is them referring to Ki drop when there's absolutely no mention of it in manga. This is plain hypocrisy, when it's written that way, you think unless he has written it "most strongest" it can't be that and when it's written clearly that they are not basing Pure Boo off the ki you think they are.
And in this case, the context clearly indicates singular. Kibitoshin states that Buu's power was lowered from the absorption that gave him a heart, and he previously stated that Buu was still pure evil until Dai Kaioushin was absorbed, meaning that he did not gain a heart until after absorbing Dai Kaioushin.
That's not true, in context he's talking about the process of absorbing. He never commented on either Buff Boo being stronger than Pure Boo or Southern Kaioshin making him stronger yet you are unnecessarily adding your headcanons. It doesn't make sense for one Kaioshin to weaken him and other to power up him when it's absolutely nonsensical to assume South Kaioshin is above ssj3.

"through absorption" goes as simple as it gets. It generalizes the idea that through the entire process of absorption, he got weaker.

Which means, there is no "specific Kaioshin" it refers to at all. To say it does would be nitpicking on your part. In fact, even herms (who knows more than us in Japanese) has interpreted the term as "absorptions".

Kibitoshin HIMSELF saying Pure Boo is the most Difficult boo despite Buff Boo being a thing, even though as you said he was still mad evil with him inside.

Elder Kaioshin mentions Buff Boo but didn't say nun about his power

The thing is, Dai Kaioshin's effect according to the Manga wad ONLY making him more controllable. Which means in terms of dangerousness, Buff Boo = Pure Boo , but Good Boo is different. Therefore, "most troublesome" refers to most powerful. Herms also once admitted that this "troublesome" notion could be translated as most "strongest" depending on the context, but he decided to translate it verbatim
Also he never mentioned him gaining heart only after Dai Kaioshin, he only said he became controllable. That's it.
Why would Rou Kaioushin ask him if he was the most troublesome, based on power, when nothing that was spoken to him about that particular form of Buu was about power at all? Kibitoshin specifically commented about Pure Buu being "evil itself" and something that "even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle", but then mentioned how absorbing the Dai Kaioushin made him controllable. Then Rou Kaioushin asks him if that makes this Buu the first, most troublesome one. You speak of context, and the context is clear here. The only information that Rou Kaioushin has to go off of in asking this is Buu's uncontrollable and pure evil nature, not his strength.
Because Kaioshin aren't supposed to power up Boo. How many times i need to reiterate that? When Vegetto took off his barrier inside Boo's body, he was defused despite Metamoran fusion working inside. Goku then comments that they will be able to fuse using potara if they get out despite traditional Metamoran fusion of gotenks working inside. Why would it be that way? Because Kaioshin and Majin powers don't blend. Dabra explicitly said that the Energy of Kaioshin and Kibito cannot be used to Power up Boo's revival. That's because Gods weaken Majin Demons. "Being Evil itself" is not even a reason to Call him Most Difficult Boo ever. He hasn't even seen him in action or in strength, why would he call him Most Difficult but not refer to power? It's obviously because Pure Boo had no Kaioshin goodness in him. That's the exact reason why Vegeta and Goku were sensing ki going up when they removed Good Boo who had both Kaioshin's influence. So your logic of South Kaioshin powering up Boo doesn't stand when the narrative made no implications. Buff Boo = Pure Boo in terms of danger yet Pure Boo is called most difficult and not Buff Boo.
I'm not against what's mentioned. When they use the term ki when in relation to the Genki Dama, they're meaning genki. Why would the technique be called the Genki Dama, and why would Goku specifically ask for genki, if it worked off anything other than genki? It's your headcanon that they're meaning ki when they're saying ki, when the facts don't support it.
It's called Genki-Dama because it's main intention is to fit the pun based on "Denki Gama". Gen-ki is origin of Ki. Goku interchangeably switches words, from Genki to Ki to Power. Power is also used to refer to Ki. From Saiyan arc onwards. As expected, you unwilling to let go this bias.

You're assuming that Vegeta's fears are the same as Goku's suppositions. If Vegeta had said anything about no one being able to beat him, then your argument would work, but all he's saying is that the Earth might actually be doomed, which leaves it vague as to what he's meaning other than that the Earth might be destroyed. Given what Buu did the moment he formed last time, Vegeta fearing Buu will just blow up the Earth isn't unfounded.
Obviously anything which goes against your arguments is vague and anything you say is "only logical explanation". Pure Boo will have to sense the most powerful ki signature on earth and it will be Gohan, yet earth will be doomed?
And unless you expect the boys or Gohan to be hanging around Mr. Satan all the time, which we already know they didn't do, since we see how their daily lives played out on the regular when it came to Super (Gohan was working on his scholarly studies, Goten was either doing schoolwork or helping Goku with farming, and Trunks was either doing schoolwork or fawning over Mai), then no, they wouldn't be around to stop Buu before Buu blew up the planet.
Pure Boo won't teleport to earth without a strong ki, the strongest ki is that of Gohan so it makes no sense he would teleport to earth from anyone's ki but Gohan when only Goku is closest to Gohan.

In an interview, Toriyama actually directly answered a question about why the last and most smallest final forms are the strongest with the example of Pure Boo and Toriyama never disagreed :
Interviewer : In several parts of Dragon Ball, the most powerful character is actually the smallest, cutest and youngest-looking. For example, young Goku, or Freeza and Majin Boo in their final transformations. Is that because kids are small and cute, but also want to be powerful?
Toriyama : I wanted to go against people’s expectation that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger. I consciously tried to switch between telling a straightforward story and telling one that was unconventional and contradictory.

Akira Toriyama Confirms his direct intentions of have the "small and weak looking characters be the strongest" which is affirmed by how he showed Goku and Vegeta underestimating Pure Boo only to fall on their heads. He didn't change his thoughts as he himself says it's been 30 years and he still holds the same idea:
"Goku and Arale both have a huge gap between how they look and what they’re capable of.

=> Yeah. I prefer to put most of the focus on the story, so I gave them plain designs, but beyond that I think it boils down to the idea that it’s more interesting to have the weak-looking, plain guys be strong. With Goku, he started out just being a straight-up monkey. Then I thought about it some more and made him a human, but Torishima-san said that he needed to have something to set him apart, so I gave him a tail… but it just kept getting in the way. (laughs)

From the midpoint onward, it became routine for the enemies to transform.

=> It all started with Freeza. I didn’t start out with any plans to have him transform of course, but midway through I thought it might be cool to make it look like a bluff and then have him transform for real. Probably at that point I also thought of giving him a sleek design in the end. I’m in the habit of giving characters progressively more complex and tough-looking forms, then finally making them really sleek. After all, it’s awful drawing them once they get all complex. (laughs) Complex guys are terrible when you have to draw them for weeks on end… Cell was a ton of work, with those darn spots of his. (laughs)

One part of the series’ version of the world are all of the gods that turn up. The fact that they’re also aliens is distinctive as well.

=> I always turn to God in times of trouble. (laughs) Gods and aliens and other unknown beings like that make it easy to craft the story. After all, gods can do practically anything. I have my gods be straightforward and not too fussy, so that children can feel comfortable with them. The reason I give gods attendants… Well, I guess it’s because important people always need butlers, and it’s easy to develop the story through conversations.

So they’re mainly there to provide exposition?

Yeah, like with Kibito I gave him a stern face, but it turns out he’s really nothing special. Pretty much all of my strong-looking guys turn out to be weak. I guess I like inverting expectations."
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:56 pm

Your logic is already debunked the moment Goku uses "And" which means both are required but there's absolutely no need to call Gotenks if Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo. There's no way you can rationalize it as Goku saying either of Gohan and Gotenks can beat Boo when he was wanting both to come and fight with them without headcanon. Gotenks ssj3 limit is 5 minutes so he will only be called if Gohan isn't enough which he clearly wasn't.
Except that Goku used a non-exhaustive "and" there, which in Japanese means that he was just using those two as examples of those that were resurrected, not that he specifically mentioned those two for a particular reason.

Besides, given even the more conservative strength scaling, Super Saiyan Gotenks alone would be more than sufficient to defeat Pure Buu. He wouldn't need Super Saiyan 3.
That's reaching, according to that i can also say Piccolo, Kaio and Elder Kaioshin are known for correcting Goku if they find him making mistake but no one corrected him with chosing Genki-Dama over Gohan. You're reading wayyyyyyyy too much into it, he only says "No" and you think just because he never insulted him means he knows its risky solution? :D :D :D :D :D. You are only believing what you want to believe, nothing with your narrative makes sense. Vegeta was already exhausted and close to death due to Pure Boo's hits and you think he will want more beatings and die again? You think he's gone so dumb that he wants Goku to fire Genki-Dama to take both him and Boo out but not bring Gohan? Man, your narrative has the worst kind of logic ever, in your desperate attempt you are willing to fit whatever comes into your mind just because your argument is better.
My narrative supports the facts. Yours requires characters saying or doing things for reasons other than what is said. The ONLY reason that Vegeta wanted the Genki Dama was because he wanted Earth's population to be involved. Rou Kaioushin and North Kaiou have already accepted that the likes of Goku and Vegeta will not listen to their objections (Goku stopped doing it with North Kaiou by as early as the Freeza arc, and Goku and Vegeta both ignored Rou Kaioushin going into the fight with Pure Buu). As for Piccolo, what position is he in to make any kind of suggestion at the time? He barely knows what's going on given that he's stuck on Earth.
omg.... :crazy: everything is so clear to you that you that it makes no sense in the context even though Gohan is stronger than Vegeta but magically Goku will not talk about Gohan.
Vegeta is the one that's scared of Buu coming back, and Goku brings up the two of them training so that if the two of them need to fight again (what falls under Goku's idea of a "worse case scenario") they won't lose, even if it's one-on-one, as a means to calm him down. Simple.
He clearly talks about Boo getting weaker after absorptions, it includes 2 Kaioshins. Also note how he says, "has returned once again to the way it was before" after talking about Power drop due to it, which means there was a power boost in Pure Boo. There's no point in telling you since you will ignore anything which goes against you or twist it to something nonsensical which fits your arguments.
The line clearly states that he lost power through the absorption that gave him a heart, and only one absorption gave him a heart, that being Dai Kaioushin. All other absorptions strengthened him, as it's stated fact that that's what happens normally. So Buu grew stronger from absorbing South Kaioushin, then grew weaker from absorbing Dai Kaioushin.
That's not true, in context he's talking about the process of absorbing. He never commented on either Buff Boo being stronger than Pure Boo or Southern Kaioshin making him stronger yet you are unnecessarily adding your headcanons. It doesn't make sense for one Kaioshin to weaken him and other to power up him when it's absolutely nonsensical to assume South Kaioshin is above ssj3.
Dai Kaioushin is readily established to be that much more innocent and pure than the other Kaioushin (Kibitoshin made it a point to describe him with those words), so his purity was counter to Buu's evil, which made him more controllable and weaker. Kibitoshin's explanation clearly says that the absorption that gave him a heart is what made him weaker, and only Dai Kaioushin's did that. All other absorptions worked normally i.e. made him stronger.
Which means, there is no "specific Kaioshin" it refers to at all. To say it does would be nitpicking on your part. In fact, even herms (who knows more than us in Japanese) has interpreted the term as "absorptions".
No, he did not interpret it as absorptions. He specifically translated it as absorption because he wasn't willing to interpret it as either version, and wrote it that way to specifically say it could be either or based on the word.
The thing is, Dai Kaioshin's effect according to the Manga wad ONLY making him more controllable. Which means in terms of dangerousness, Buff Boo = Pure Boo , but Good Boo is different. Therefore, "most troublesome" refers to most powerful. Herms also once admitted that this "troublesome" notion could be translated as most "strongest" depending on the context, but he decided to translate it verbatim

He became more controllable because he gained a heart, and it was that absorption that gave him a heart which weakened him. Thus, only Dai Kaioushin weakened him.
Because Kaioshin aren't supposed to power up Boo. How many times i need to reiterate that? When Vegetto took off his barrier inside Boo's body, he was defused despite Metamoran fusion working inside. Goku then comments that they will be able to fuse using potara if they get out despite traditional Metamoran fusion of gotenks working inside. Why would it be that way? Because Kaioshin and Majin powers don't blend. Dabra explicitly said that the Energy of Kaioshin and Kibito cannot be used to Power up Boo's revival. That's because Gods weaken Majin Demons. "Being Evil itself" is not even a reason to Call him Most Difficult Boo ever. He hasn't even seen him in action or in strength, why would he call him Most Difficult but not refer to power? It's obviously because Pure Boo had no Kaioshin goodness in him. That's the exact reason why Vegeta and Goku were sensing ki going up when they removed Good Boo who had both Kaioshin's influence. So your logic of South Kaioshin powering up Boo doesn't stand when the narrative made no implications. Buff Boo = Pure Boo in terms of danger yet Pure Boo is called most difficult and not Buff Boo.

Nope. Vegetto hit the one hour time limit on the Potara and de-fused that way (you can't deny stated fact just because it runs counter to your notions). Likewise, Goku was solely speaking of when they escaped Buu's body, not what they'd do inside. After all, he was also only mentioning using the Metamoran fusion once they escaped as well, and not attempting to do so inside his body. And it's not stated at all as to why Dabra believed that Kaioushin's energy couldn't be used, so you're the one relying on headcanon. It's just as likely Dabra meant they weren't strong enough, since he commented right after that Goku and the others did have more than enough energy to restore Buu.

And yes, being evil itself and being absolutely uncontrollable by his "creator" is certainly more than enough to warrant being called the most difficult and troublesome, given that Kibitoshin spoke absolutely nothing about Buu's strength but everything about his nature at the time Rou Kaioushin asked it. You are trying to imbue Rou Kaioushin with information he wouldn't have access to if you try to argue that his comment was about Buu's strength.
It's called Genki-Dama because it's main intention is to fit the pun based on "Denki Gama". Gen-ki is origin of Ki. Goku interchangeably switches words, from Genki to Ki to Power. Power is also used to refer to Ki. From Saiyan arc onwards. As expected, you unwilling to let go this bias.
So it's okay in your head canon for Goku to switch words interchangeably, but not for others to? That makes no sense. Genki is one aspect of ki. That is Toriyama's direct statement on the matter. Because of this, and the fact that it is specifically said that the Genki Dama uses donated genki, then all mentions of "ki" when in relation to the Genki Dama is just characters using ki and genki interchangeably. The Genki Dama takes genki, not an individual's entire ki, meaning Gohan had all the other elements of ki still within his body, and therefore his donation not being strong enough to beat Buu doesn't mean that he himself wasn't strong enough to.
Obviously anything which goes against your arguments is vague and anything you say is "only logical explanation". Pure Boo will have to sense the most powerful ki signature on earth and it will be Gohan, yet earth will be doomed?
We're talking about a situation of Mr. Buu (on Earth), making another Pure Buu, which would already also be on Earth. He wouldn't need to sense the most powerful ki signature at all to just pop out and blow up the planet. Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu could be halfway across the planet while Gohan is working and the boys are studying or helping their dads, another Pure Buu pops out and boom, instant planet annihilation.

Besides, given that it was the Pure Evil Buu that spawned from Fat Buu, not Pure Buu, Vegeta's fears aren't even related to Pure Buu at all.
Pure Boo won't teleport to earth without a strong ki, the strongest ki is that of Gohan so it makes no sense he would teleport to earth from anyone's ki but Gohan when only Goku is closest to Gohan.

He'd already be on Earth. He wouldn't have to teleport anywhere.
In an interview, Toriyama actually directly answered a question about why the last and most smallest final forms are the strongest with the example of Pure Boo and Toriyama never disagreed :
Buu remembers his other forms and the experiences he had in those other forms. Gotenks Buu states himself to be the "mightiest" Majin to have ever existed, meaning that none of the other forms of Buu to have preceded him (which would include Pure Buu, since Pure Buu was the first) would have been stronger. Thus Toriyama's facts in the manga contradict any outside notion (clear or vague) suggesting Pure Buu is the strongest.

This also means that Rou Kaioushin's asking and Kibitoshin's confirmation that Pure Buu is the "most troublesome" cannot be in relation to strength, given that Buu would know his own strength better than Kibitoshin (who, as pointed out before, has shown a considerable lack of skill in sensing ki).

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:35 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:56 pm
Except that Goku used a non-exhaustive "and" there, which in Japanese means that he was just using those two as examples of those that were resurrected, not that he specifically mentioned those two for a particular reason.

Besides, given even the more conservative strength scaling, Super Saiyan Gotenks alone would be more than sufficient to defeat Pure Buu. He wouldn't need Super Saiyan 3.
That's bad argument. He clearly says "Gohan To Gotenks", in Japanese its clear "And". Now gotenks can win without ssj3?
My narrative supports the facts. Yours requires characters saying or doing things for reasons other than what is said. The ONLY reason that Vegeta wanted the Genki Dama was because he wanted Earth's population to be involved. Rou Kaioushin and North Kaiou have already accepted that the likes of Goku and Vegeta will not listen to their objections (Goku stopped doing it with North Kaiou by as early as the Freeza arc, and Goku and Vegeta both ignored Rou Kaioushin going into the fight with Pure Buu). As for Piccolo, what position is he in to make any kind of suggestion at the time? He barely knows what's going on given that he's stuck on Earth.
Your narrative has the most screwed logic ever like Vegeta being exhausted wanting to Pure Boo to kill him then pleading to humans to give power then after Genki-Dama is ready wanting to to die for no reason when Gohan is supposedly enough. Goku isn't dumb enough to blindly follow Vegeta's words, if you think he was the one who judged Pure Boo off ki because unlike Vegeta he's not arrogant then it makes no sense for him to blindly follow what Vegeta says just so it can fit your arguments. If Gohan was stronger than Pure Boo he would have found Vegeta's idea dumb and either way called Gohan because anyone can see that, Goku in exhausted state won't make a Genki Dama unless it's last resort. Hell, Kaio told him the same thing that Genki-Dama should be only used as a last resort and he agreed. Your narrative seems like you love badly written stories, if Goku and Vegeta were still fighting Boo alone one-on-one and close to victory then your narrative would have made sense. But what do we have here? Goku and Vegeta badly exhausted and open to any help, that's why they started to take outside helps from Namekian Dragon Balls too. When Genki-Dama plan was failing Elder Kaioshin literally implied that this was doom for existence and was hopeless, now tell me why would that be? Why won't he ready Gohan after seeing Genki-Dama plan failing? What are you talking about? Again, you make no sense, Goku and Vegeta already were at the end of their rope. There's no reason why No one will tell them considering how they were close to getting killed even Vegeta says "this is the worst case scenario". Also your narrative is badly thought out, you are telling me Kibitoshin sucks so much at sensing ki yet Toriyama draws him again and again so that we say "who cares ignore him lmao"? Terrible analogy.
Vegeta is the one that's scared of Buu coming back, and Goku brings up the two of them training so that if the two of them need to fight again (what falls under Goku's idea of a "worse case scenario") they won't lose, even if it's one-on-one, as a means to calm him down. Simple.
He's scared because incase Pure Boo emerges no one will be able to kill him one-on-one. Goku never said anything about 2 of them, stop reaching out. Pure Boo will obviously need to big Ki signal to reach earth and Gohan in his base has the biggest ki in Boo arc so it makes no sense that magically Gohan will dissappear too. Vegeta is already according to his own admission far weaker than Goku so there's no point in only referring to him, when he has Gohan already. Goku is talking about everyone not just Vegeta, your narrative is fitting to you only.
The line clearly states that he lost power through the absorption that gave him a heart, and only one absorption gave him a heart, that being Dai Kaioushin. All other absorptions strengthened him, as it's stated fact that that's what happens normally. So Buu grew stronger from absorbing South Kaioushin, then grew weaker from absorbing Dai Kaioushin.
You are again adding your own bad headcanons. He meant opposite, Kaioshin intellect and mind is what he means by heart. Even Dragon Book guides call Pure Boo strongest due to not being deluded by Kaioshin goodness. You make 0 sense, Kaioshins aren't supposed to be stronger than ssj3 let alone Pure Boo. You think South Kaioshin was extremely strong yet lost to Boo and never lifted Z sword even though Kibito mentioned how no god was able to lift it in history of Kaioshins. It's because Kaioshin nature is hurting to boo that Elder Kaioshin asked if Pure Boo was most difficult then Kaioshin mentioned the power drop due to absorptions and he never talked about southern Kaioshin powering him up. The ki which started to rise earlier was Pure Boo's unrestricted ki, it can't be South Kaioshin's Ki because he's not in his body and the influence of both Kaioshins is taken together. He never stops at Buff Boo either so it can't be his, you think that power just came and vanished for no reason? When the power source was taken out, why would he start to get south Kaioshin power when the influence is taken out?
Evil Boo loses both Kaioshin influences - Gets stronger

Considering buff boo would be from south Kaioshin's influence, there's no way buff boo's power could be felt if it's not there at all 

he was reverting back through the stages he had been through... but the power source isn't there. That's why he never stops changing. Also, he starts to change from buff boo and when vegeta says "He's still changing", goku says "I wish he'd stop". That doesn't sound like "Yay, he's getting weaker now" to me...

Kibitoshin states, and I quote "But the strongest of us all... the southern kaioshin was absorbed by Boo" Not once is it stated that boo got stronger, only that he absorbed the strongest Kaioshin (who by the way is weaker than Mssj Gohan, as Mssj teen gohan pulled out the z sword which no Kaioshin was able to do).

Dai Kaioushin is readily established to be that much more innocent and pure than the other Kaioushin (Kibitoshin made it a point to describe him with those words), so his purity was counter to Buu's evil, which made him more controllable and weaker. Kibitoshin's explanation clearly says that the absorption that gave him a heart is what made him weaker, and only Dai Kaioushin's did that. All other absorptions worked normally i.e. made him stronger.
Its like
A = lose power instantly
Boo oses gohan -> A happens
Boo loses goten -> A happens
Boo loses trunks -> A happens
Boo loses piccolo---> A happens
Boo loses Fat boo (Both Kaioshins) -> "Oh wait here A doesn't happen, something random completely happens to fit my argument which has never been stated, implied or mentioned at all...Yup his power just skyrockets even though the rest of the characters never showed that trait...Yup just powered up out of nothing because the character was no longer in the body but I am gonna say whatever under 'only logical explanation'."
Like do you see what I am writing here?

No, he did not interpret it as absorptions. He specifically translated it as absorption because he wasn't willing to interpret it as either version, and wrote it that way to specifically say it could be either or based on the word.
Yet he never wrote it as singular and with context it becomes Plural.
He became more controllable because he gained a heart, and it was that absorption that gave him a heart which weakened him. Thus, only Dai Kaioushin weakened him.
That still means that Fat boo before splitting was weaker than Pure Boo so 2 absorptions do weaken him. Even if you assume South Kaioshin powered him up, the Dai Kaioshin weakened him so why would he go even below Pure Boo's level? This means his power was blocked due to good boo.
"i am just gonna desperately say whatever fits my arguments even though they don't make sense"
Nope. Vegetto hit the one hour time limit on the Potara and de-fused that way (you can't deny stated fact just because it runs counter to your notions). Likewise, Goku was solely speaking of when they escaped Buu's body, not what they'd do inside. After all, he was also only mentioning using the Metamoran fusion once they escaped as well, and not attempting to do so inside his body. And it's not stated at all as to why Dabra believed that Kaioushin's energy couldn't be used, so you're the one relying on headcanon. It's just as likely Dabra meant they weren't strong enough, since he commented right after that Goku and the others did have more than enough energy to restore Buu.
Awful headcanon. The fight was quick as hell in manga and no implications were made in manga about it taking an hour. Talk about original run only when it was written. It's not even a fact :D :D When in manga that's not what was implied, there's nothing like 1 minute. Oh man, where do you find such bad logical arguments? Goku explicitly says that they can fuse again if they put them on and get out which means Boo's body was the issue. Dabra knows that GODS can't add ki to a DEMON, he LIERALLY states "we can't use their ki to revive boo" and you thinks it's supposed to mean "they were weak so their energy can't be added to boo" ?? Eh didn't Yamu and Spopovitch have a mission to collect ki from earthlings, who Dabra and Bobbidi obviously expected to be weaker than a Kaioshin ?
Yes say whatever you want to at this point, you are just on purpose missing points.
Dabra said "we can't use kibito and east kaioushin's ki"
This is a direct statement proving that kaioshin ki CANNOT be added to Boo. Kaioushins are pure gods, and logically CANNOT add ki to a Demon. It's common sense really (Kai-O-Shin=Japanese for 'Divine Universe King')


And yes, being evil itself and being absolutely uncontrollable by his "creator" is certainly more than enough to warrant being called the most difficult and troublesome, given that Kibitoshin spoke absolutely nothing about Buu's strength but everything about his nature at the time Rou Kaioushin asked it. You are trying to imbue Rou Kaioushin with information he wouldn't have access to if you try to argue that his comment was about Buu's strength.
He never said Evil itself, only that he was hard to control by Bobbidi. Kaioshin mentioned how boo had 2 gods in him all along and that's why old Kaioshin deduced that the smallest unrestrained boo is difficult as in most strongest. This thing is reaffirmed by Dabra that Kaioshin ki can't be used for Boo, mix them together and there you get it.

Look kid boo absorbing a weak kaioushin can't change his ki, even if south kaioshin (a GOD) could add power to a DEMON (which he can't) even then the added power would be very tiny..Like what would have happened if Goku potara fused with Mr. Satan.
"Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
This statement is the one which proves that unlike shin=new boo (Super Boo/Evil Boo), Pure Boo is the ONLY Boo with ZERO Dai Kaioshin goodness lowering his power.

Just look at "LOWER his power through absorption" and "has returned ONCE AGAIN TO THE WAY IT WAS"

Which means Pure Boo got a boost from Evil Boo. Your only headcanon is Goku's statement but it was never due to Ki because he neither mentioned him weakening on earth nor on Kaioshin Planet. And on the contrary, Goku admitted he was trying to act cool and Vegeta admitted boo was far stronger than he imagined which means your argument is based off nothing. Characters are supposed to inform readers and Toriyama that's why never ever made any of them mention Boo's Power dropping.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
As you can see, there's absolutely no hint of Pure Boo being weaker in Goku's excuse to Elder Kaioshin. Only thing is that he's using saiyan pride and fair battle as an excuse because Boo is unfused so he wants to fight him unfused too. Goku even admits the dangerous situation he's in and apologized for taking risk. As you can see, even later he's willing to sacrifice planets if it can stall Boo, so that he can think of a strategy to beat boo. Not a single thing here hints at Boo being weaker so I have narrative evidence here. Your arguments only work with vague assumptions while I go with quotes from Manga.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3...However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
As you can see, Goku and Vegeta underestimated boo so much they thought ssj2 will be enough that's why both did Janken for him and Goku was actually going to fight in SSj2 not even ssj3. He doesn't consider ssj3 his full power (as he says he's gonna go all out yet never goes ssj3), that's why inside Boo's stomach too he never tried to go ssj3 most likely due to its drawbacks in living world and exhaustion after Vegetto fight. But here as you can see he was gonna fight him in Ssj/ssj2 and only after Vegeta gave him permission to use ssj3 is when he actually went ssj3.
So it's okay in your head canon for Goku to switch words interchangeably, but not for others to? That makes no sense. Genki is one aspect of ki. That is Toriyama's direct statement on the matter. Because of this, and the fact that it is specifically said that the Genki Dama uses donated genki, then all mentions of "ki" when in relation to the Genki Dama is just characters using ki and genki interchangeably. The Genki Dama takes genki, not an individual's entire ki, meaning Gohan had all the other elements of ki still within his body, and therefore his donation not being strong enough to beat Buu doesn't mean that he himself wasn't strong enough too.
Wrong. When kaio taught Goku he mentioned energy, Genki means origin of Ki and Goku told that Genki-Dama collects Ki. Why would just nonsensical "health energy" from plants power up Genki-Dama to deal with Oozaru Vegeta with a power level of 180,000? That's pure nonsense. It's Ki or normal energy. You are just blinded by your bias, admit it. The series never tried to distinguish between Genki and ki and genki is interchange used with power too.
We're talking about a situation of Mr. Buu (on Earth), making another Pure Buu, which would already also be on Earth. He wouldn't need to sense the most powerful ki signature at all to just pop out and blow up the planet. Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu could be halfway across the planet while Gohan is working and the boys are studying or helping their dads, another Pure Buu pops out and boom, instant planet annihilation.

Besides, given that it was the Pure Evil Buu that spawned from Fat Buu, not Pure Buu, Vegeta's fears aren't even related to Pure Buu at all.
That's ridiculous logic, Fat Boo can atleast hold him or divert his system enough as we saw on Kaioshin realm and Goku has shown in the show that irrespective of him being anywhere, he can teleport anywhere instantly so here goes your bad logic. Goku also says that if Genki Dama never worked everyone would have been doomed. Why would that happen? To go back to Earth from Kaioshin realm Pure Boo would have required the biggest Ki and Gohan is the one with that, so Pure Boo can meet Gohan yet it would mean doom? Goku actually begs earthlings to give power and telling them how Pure Boo will doom everyone, but why would he do that if his son can one shot boo? Why would Goku go through all that? Even if you assume Vegeta was arrogant like in Cell arc, Goku has shown to have knowledge of Gotenks's and Gohan's power. Yet he would just use Genki Dama after Vegeta told him? That makes no sense. Your arguments have the most stupid roundabout logics. You think Goku's statement inside Evil Boo are meant to be taken seriously as if he was Earnest and then when him talks about Boo dooming everyone is because he knows Gohan is stronger and he's not being Earnest and calling him?


He'd already be on Earth. He wouldn't have to teleport anywhere.
Goku can teleport to him too instantly.
Besides, given that it was the Pure Evil Buu that spawned from Fat Buu, not Pure Buu, Vegeta's fears aren't even related to Pure Buu at all.
He should not fear him then cause earlier when he insinuates what will happen to Boo if Fat boo is removed, he talked about grey Boo and said that he will be weaker. Pure Evil Boo also took most of Good Boo's Power in partition. "yea Vegeta's fear is totally not related to the Boo they just defeated but a vastly weaker boo" yea whatever.
Buu remembers his other forms and the experiences he had in those other forms. Gotenks Buu states himself to be the "mightiest" Majin to have ever existed, meaning that none of the other forms of Buu to have preceded him (which would include Pure Buu, since Pure Buu was the first) would have been stronger. Thus Toriyama's facts in the manga contradict any outside notion (clear or vague) suggesting Pure Buu is the strongest.

This also means that Rou Kaioushin's asking and Kibitoshin's confirmation that Pure Buu is the "most troublesome" cannot be in relation to strength, given that Buu would know his own strength better than Kibitoshin (who, as pointed out before, has shown a considerable lack of skill in sensing ki).
That still could fit lol. Pure Boo can be stronger than Piccolo-Boo and yet that Gotenks-Boo statement can fit, since Boo powered up from Base Evil Boo to Pure Boo, Saiyan absorptions can be counted as additions. Besides your arguments are again, based off nothing because when Gotenks-Boo was talking about Fat Boo. He doesn't know about Pure Boo, that's why he was afraid to turn back into Pure Boo because of losing all consciousness.
"i know more than the author due to one line which was made in relation to Fat boo". You make no sense, Evil Boo hesitated to even touch Satan but Pure Boo actually punched Satan without Fat Boo in him. There's no way Evil Boo is supposed to have memories of Pure Boo. Here we are talking about power from base, Gotenks-Boo at that time had two saiyans in him, it's not base Evil Boo who said that.

Evil Boo knows Fat boo because he is the one who ate and transformed they arent fundamentally different.

Pure boo is fundamentally different than all of them even Fat Boo at the end doesnt show any signs of knowing him.

Evil Boo doesnt have his memory what makes you think other Boos have theirs? Prove that point with a scan Its your burden.
Throughout the arc no Boo mentions about Pure Boo
Evil Boo doesnt even know what would happen to his existence if Fat Boo were removed when he says "I wont be me anymore" So? Wheres your Evidence proving they remember?



Fat Boo and All the Subsequent Boo forms are impure forms.None of them mention anything of sort that they remember about Pure Boo infact Evil Boo is afraid of getting possibly gone if Fat Boo is Removed from inside He says he won't be him anymore
Plus Pure Boo Doesn't remember any previous forms either that's why he literally punched Satan which Evil Boo wasn't able to do.

Nothing indicates any form remembers Kid Boo
Plus When Bootenks was written I doubt Toriyama thought of Kid boo.


Vegeta commented on Perfect Cell still being weak, Vegeta cant sense cell's Ki now?


You have to Understand how it works
Toriyama does it with every villain's last transformation. You have made this invalid point for the 100th time now. Please don't use headcanons to defend your point. All Ki Fluctuates there is no reason for them to sense perfect ki all the time.

Toriyama has confirmed it in many of his interviews that he keeps his powerful characters weak looking
And they didnt do it?
Kuririn also made fun of freeza final form, so he cant ki now?
Stop the headcanon its clearly his size which made Goku say he might be able to manage something.
Besides it makes complete sense for Toriyama to give fake sense of hope by making Vegeta deduce that removing Fat Boo should weaken him. Then introducing a smaller form similar to Freeza getting smaller, then make a character comment on his height similar to Freeza. Then make him perform a big feat like Freeza killed dende and Pure Boo making a big blast with so much power that Goku admits its way above him.

Things you have done in all your arguments :
-Denying the author and not taking into account the staples of Toriyama’s storytelling and his tropes
-Denying Character statements when they don't support your ogic by refuting characters as either stupid or twistng their words Can anyone get anymore of an biased than this? You have been doing this for a long time, i just checked your posts and there's no point in debating with you on this since you're just way too unwilling to try to see things from other perspective. In all other arguments related to this topic all I saw was you getting debunked and yet you just keep sticking to same logic because deep inside its ingrained in your mind that Evil Boo has to be stronger than Pure Boo. In last few days, i actually talked with many Japanese DB fans and all of them say that original manga clearly implied that Pure Boo was strongest. They were actually amazed how western fandom of DB thinks Gohan is stronger than Pure Boo, which doesn't surprise me too since western fandom was misinformed by awful translations like Goku in dub saying he could have killed Pure Boo when he was fresh but he let the fight drag on so Vegeta gets a shot and it made him lose energy so he had to get power back then Viz translation saying Kaioshins tamed him and totally taking the "lower power through absorption" word out which makes them believe Kaioshins never weakened him but just tamed his mind.

Vegeta obviously denied Gohan and Gotenks help because neither of them was strong enough. He says No because obviously that won't work and after Vegeta talked about taking all ki from everyone Goku agreed. For your argument to work both of them have to go pure brain dead. A character only makes reckless decisions when they have too much confidence in their power like Goku and Vegeta crushing potara and doing janken. But in this case both Goku and Vegeta were badly beaten by Pure Boo and out of energy. They won't deny direct help, Kaio told Goku to use Genki Dama only when no option is left which is exactly what Goku did. That's why when Pure Boo spotted Genki Dama Vegeta said "he's seen us, this is the end" because Gohan was not an option. Goku told that if Satan hadn't helped them with Genki Dama then everyone would have been killed which includes Gohan. Goku won't call earthlings "stupid bastards" if his son is enough. Why would he try a move and despite it failing keep trying it? Why would toriyama never make a single character comment on Pure Boo getting weaker but make Kaioshin mention that Pure Boo lost power through absorption? Try to open up and see things from different perspective. Why would the interviewer ask about final, the most smallest forms being strongest with the example of Pure Boo? The scaling is no different from other arcs,
Freeza final form > Freeza 3rd form > Freeza 2nd form > Freeza base form

Cell Perfect form > Cell Semi Perfect form > Cell Imperfect form

Pure Boo > Evil Boo (for you i am not even counting his forms with saiyans in him) > Majin Boo
Pure Boo is drawn small because that's toriyama's staple to draw strongest characters the smallest to go against with expectations of strongest being big looking guys.
Don't try to complicate Dragon Ball, the scaling and everything is simple.
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Darkprince410
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:49 am

That's bad argument. He clearly says "Gohan To Gotenks", in Japanese its clear "And". Now gotenks can win without ssj3?
A non-exhaustive "and" means that what is said isn't specifically just them, and yes, Gotenks as a Super Saiyan, given even the more conservative power estimations, was above Super Saiyan 3 Goku, meaning he'd have no trouble against Buu.
Your narrative has the most screwed logic ever like Vegeta being exhausted wanting to Pure Boo to kill him then pleading to humans to give power then after Genki-Dama is ready wanting to to die for no reason when Gohan is supposedly enough. Goku isn't dumb enough to blindly follow Vegeta's words, if you think he was the one who judged Pure Boo off ki because unlike Vegeta he's not arrogant then it makes no sense for him to blindly follow what Vegeta says just so it can fit your arguments. If Gohan was stronger than Pure Boo he would have found Vegeta's idea dumb and either way called Gohan because anyone can see that, Goku in exhausted state won't make a Genki Dama unless it's last resort. Hell, Kaio told him the same thing that Genki-Dama should be only used as a last resort and he agreed. Your narrative seems like you love badly written stories, if Goku and Vegeta were still fighting Boo alone one-on-one and close to victory then your narrative would have made sense. But what do we have here? Goku and Vegeta badly exhausted and open to any help, that's why they started to take outside helps from Namekian Dragon Balls too. When Genki-Dama plan was failing Elder Kaioshin literally implied that this was doom for existence and was hopeless, now tell me why would that be? Why won't he ready Gohan after seeing Genki-Dama plan failing? What are you talking about? Again, you make no sense, Goku and Vegeta already were at the end of their rope. There's no reason why No one will tell them considering how they were close to getting killed even Vegeta says "this is the worst case scenario". Also your narrative is badly thought out, you are telling me Kibitoshin sucks so much at sensing ki yet Toriyama draws him again and again so that we say "who cares ignore him lmao"? Terrible analogy.
There is one explanation and one explanation alone as to why Vegeta wanted the Genki Dama used. Any other explanation is automatically fan headcanon and unsupported by facts.
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”

Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather genki from them right up to their limits!”
At no point is it said that the Genki Dama is their only way to win or does anyone say that Goku's idea was wrong. It's just that he wants the people of the Earth to take responsibility for their actions. Any other explanation is headcanon and doesn't fit the established narrative.
He's scared because incase Pure Boo emerges no one will be able to kill him one-on-one. Goku never said anything about 2 of them, stop reaching out. Pure Boo will obviously need to big Ki signal to reach earth and Gohan in his base has the biggest ki in Boo arc so it makes no sense that magically Gohan will dissappear too. Vegeta is already according to his own admission far weaker than Goku so there's no point in only referring to him, when he has Gohan already. Goku is talking about everyone not just Vegeta, your narrative is fitting to you only.
Goku is talking to him to calm his fears, so obviously his statement is directed at him. The two of them aren't strong enough as is to beat Buu one-on-one, and so Goku thinks they should train so that if THEY need to fight again (which is, in his mind, the "worse case situation"), they won't lose. Simple.
You are again adding your own bad headcanons. He meant opposite, Kaioshin intellect and mind is what he means by heart. Even Dragon Book guides call Pure Boo strongest due to not being deluded by Kaioshin goodness. You make 0 sense, Kaioshins aren't supposed to be stronger than ssj3 let alone Pure Boo. You think South Kaioshin was extremely strong yet lost to Boo and never lifted Z sword even though Kibito mentioned how no god was able to lift it in history of Kaioshins. It's because Kaioshin nature is hurting to boo that Elder Kaioshin asked if Pure Boo was most difficult then Kaioshin mentioned the power drop due to absorptions and he never talked about southern Kaioshin powering him up. The ki which started to rise earlier was Pure Boo's unrestricted ki, it can't be South Kaioshin's Ki because he's not in his body and the influence of both Kaioshins is taken together. He never stops at Buff Boo either so it can't be his, you think that power just came and vanished for no reason? When the power source was taken out, why would he start to get south Kaioshin power when the influence is taken out?
The original manga's dialogue does not say that all the Kaioushin have tried to lift the Z Sword, just that every one of them that had tried had failed. That leaves it clearly open to there being Kaioushin that have never tried. And I've already explained multiple times over why South Kaioushin's influence and his power came from when Buu reverted. Their influence was still lingering inside Buu after Buu was removed (hence why it took so long for him to eventually revert completely into Pure Buu). The influence of the Dai Kaioushin burned off first, resulting in the re-formation of South Kaioushin Buu and the corresponding strength increase. Then, he reverted to Pure Buu, and Goku's sudden confidence in them standing a chance indicates a power decrease.

Only the Dai Kaioushin gave Buu a heart, and it was the same absorption that gave him a heart that resulted in his power dropping. Since South Kaioushin did not drop his strength, then it must have increased it, as it was stated beforehand that all absorptions make Buu stronger and cause a form change.
Yet he never wrote it as singular and with context it becomes Plural.
He didn't write it as plural either. He wrote it as absorption(s) (with the s in brackets, to establish that it could be either or), and context makes it singular, not plural.
That still means that Fat boo before splitting was weaker than Pure Boo so 2 absorptions do weaken him. Even if you assume South Kaioshin powered him up, the Dai Kaioshin weakened him so why would he go even below Pure Boo's level? This means his power was blocked due to good boo.
No, just the one absorption weakened him. That's why, when Buu transformed into Evil Buu, his strength increased drastically from what it was as Fat Buu even though they were made of the same parts. He had all the strength of Pure Evil Buu (who was essentially equal in power to Pure Buu) as well as the strength of the two Kaioushin, with only minimal power decrease from Dai Kaioushin involved.
Awful headcanon. The fight was quick as hell in manga and no implications were made in manga about it taking an hour. Talk about original run only when it was written. It's not even a fact :D :D When in manga that's not what was implied, there's nothing like 1 minute. Oh man, where do you find such bad logical arguments? Goku explicitly says that they can fuse again if they put them on and get out which means Boo's body was the issue. Dabra knows that GODS can't add ki to a DEMON, he LIERALLY states "we can't use their ki to revive boo" and you thinks it's supposed to mean "they were weak so their energy can't be added to boo" ?? Eh didn't Yamu and Spopovitch have a mission to collect ki from earthlings, who Dabra and Bobbidi obviously expected to be weaker than a Kaioshin ?
It's not headcanon when it's established fact. You can't ignore what's stated in Super just because it contradicts your argument. And Goku's comment about fusing with the Potaras again once they left is irrelevant, because he also mentioned them using the Metamoran fusion once they escaped, meaning that he didn't intend for them to fuse inside at all.

You do realize that Buu isn't stated at all to be a demon, right? Majin just as readily means "magical person" rather than demon, and at no point is it said that demon energy can't co-mingle with godly energy (you're bringing headcanon into it). As for Dabra's comment and why bringing Spopovitch and Yam up is irrelevant, look at the context. Spopovitch and Yam were to collect energy for Buu over whatever length of time they had, and to do it covertly so as to not attract the attention of Kaioushin. Dabra's comment about Kaioushin and Kibito was when they had Goku and the others right there, to where Dabra says that, while they can't use Kaioushin or Kibito's energy, there's three there that have marvelous levels of energy (giving context to his reasoning as to why Kaioushin and Kibito couldn't be used).
He never said Evil itself, only that he was hard to control by Bobbidi. Kaioshin mentioned how boo had 2 gods in him all along and that's why old Kaioshin deduced that the smallest unrestrained boo is difficult as in most strongest. This thing is reaffirmed by Dabra that Kaioshin ki can't be used for Boo, mix them together and there you get it.
Kaioushin literally says evil itself, and all of the information given to Rou Kaioushin only would allow him to believe that Pure Buu was the most troublesome because of his nature, not his strength.
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Which means Pure Boo got a boost from Evil Boo. Your only headcanon is Goku's statement but it was never due to Ki because he neither mentioned him weakening on earth nor on Kaioshin Planet. And on the contrary, Goku admitted he was trying to act cool and Vegeta admitted boo was far stronger than he imagined which means your argument is based off nothing. Characters are supposed to inform readers and Toriyama that's why never ever made any of them mention Boo's Power dropping.
We have multiple statements indirectly saying that Pure Buu is weaker though. Goku's confidence they can now do something (when it's out of character for him to judge an individual based on size if he can sense their ki). Goku's statement of being able to defeat Pure Buu with a full-power blast once he gathered his ki for a minute. Both of these in conjunction with him saying that he and Vegeta stood NO chance against Evil Buu (which is not contradicted at any point), and you have it spelled out that there had to have been a power drop. It doesn't directly need to be said when there's enough indirect information available to point anyone in that direction.
As you can see, Goku and Vegeta underestimated boo so much they thought ssj2 will be enough that's why both did Janken for him and Goku was actually going to fight in SSj2 not even ssj3. He doesn't consider ssj3 his full power (as he says he's gonna go all out yet never goes ssj3), that's why inside Boo's stomach too he never tried to go ssj3 most likely due to its drawbacks in living world and exhaustion after Vegetto fight. But here as you can see he was gonna fight him in Ssj/ssj2 and only after Vegeta gave him permission to use ssj3 is when he actually went ssj3.
None of that is remotely true in the slightest. For starters, Goku and Vegeta were just Super Saiyan at the time, so by your logic, he didn't even consider Super Saiyan 2 his full power. Likewise, nothing about that indicated he was going to hold back on transforming to Super Saiyan 3 until Vegeta "gave him permission" (and it's readily indicated later that Goku's actions didn't have Vegeta in mind). He hadn't went Super Saiyan 3 at the time simply because he hadn't transformed into it yet to start fighting.

Your argument would only make sense if Goku actually had tried attacking Pure Buu as a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 after saying he'd go all out, but since he went Super Saiyan 3, then your argument has no bearing.
Wrong. When kaio taught Goku he mentioned energy, Genki means origin of Ki and Goku told that Genki-Dama collects Ki. Why would just nonsensical "health energy" from plants power up Genki-Dama to deal with Oozaru Vegeta with a power level of 180,000? That's pure nonsense. It's Ki or normal energy. You are just blinded by your bias, admit it. The series never tried to distinguish between Genki and ki and genki is interchange used with power too.
No, he mentioned energy, not ki specifically, and genki means and translates, in Japanese, into the the energy that someone that is healthy and vigorous has. And Toriyama himself distinguished the difference between Genki and ki, so we have to accept that difference.
That's ridiculous logic, Fat Boo can atleast hold him or divert his system enough as we saw on Kaioshin realm and Goku has shown in the show that irrespective of him being anywhere, he can teleport anywhere instantly so here goes your bad logic. Goku also says that if Genki Dama never worked everyone would have been doomed. Why would that happen? To go back to Earth from Kaioshin realm Pure Boo would have required the biggest Ki and Gohan is the one with that, so Pure Boo can meet Gohan yet it would mean doom? Goku actually begs earthlings to give power and telling them how Pure Boo will doom everyone, but why would he do that if his son can one shot boo? Why would Goku go through all that? Even if you assume Vegeta was arrogant like in Cell arc, Goku has shown to have knowledge of Gotenks's and Gohan's power. Yet he would just use Genki Dama after Vegeta told him? That makes no sense. Your arguments have the most stupid roundabout logics. You think Goku's statement inside Evil Boo are meant to be taken seriously as if he was Earnest and then when him talks about Boo dooming everyone is because he knows Gohan is stronger and he's not being Earnest and calling him?
You forget, Pure Buu has the Kai Kai, not Goku's teleportation. He can sense someone powerful, then go anywhere else on the planet he wants, because his teleportation doesn't require locking onto and teleporting to a ki signature. All Goku agreeing to Vegeta's idea means is that he agrees with the concept that Earth's population should handle its own problems for once and not always rely on them for survival, not that he thinks that it's a better plan than bringing Gohan or Gotenks up to fight.
That still could fit lol. Pure Boo can be stronger than Piccolo-Boo and yet that Gotenks-Boo statement can fit, since Boo powered up from Base Evil Boo to Pure Boo, Saiyan absorptions can be counted as additions. Besides your arguments are again, based off nothing because when Gotenks-Boo was talking about Fat Boo. He doesn't know about Pure Boo, that's why he was afraid to turn back into Pure Boo because of losing all consciousness.
He knows about all his earlier forms, not just Fat Buu. He's all still the same Buu, from Pure Buu onward. Buu's comment makes no stipulation on the matter, that he, as Gotenks Buu, was the strongest Buu to have existed at the time.
Toriyama has confirmed it in many of his interviews that he keeps his powerful characters weak looking
And they didnt do it?
Kuririn also made fun of freeza final form, so he cant ki now?
Stop the headcanon its clearly his size which made Goku say he might be able to manage something.
Besides it makes complete sense for Toriyama to give fake sense of hope by making Vegeta deduce that removing Fat Boo should weaken him. Then introducing a smaller form similar to Freeza getting smaller, then make a character comment on his height similar to Freeza. Then make him perform a big feat like Freeza killed dende and Pure Boo making a big blast with so much power that Goku admits its way above him.
Goku is not one to judge a character based on their size or physical appearance though. I've said that time and again. Others have, and we've seen, time and again, said characters dismiss someone that Goku believes could be a legitimate threat because he's going off what he senses or the impression he's getting when they're going off how they look. It would be a completely random change in character for Goku to suddenly ignore what he's sensing and go by size.

Likewise, in none of those interviews did he say that he made the smaller forms the strongest, just that he made characters that appeared small and weak be deceptively strong in actuality. Kid Goku, for example (in the first interview you quoted) isn't stronger than adult Goku. Freeza's 100% full power state is taller and larger than his initial final form state. Etc. He was simply saying that he doesn't make the characters that look like they should be insanely weak actually be weak. They may not be the strongest, but they're not the weakest either.
Vegeta obviously denied Gohan and Gotenks help because neither of them was strong enough. He says No because obviously that won't work and after Vegeta talked about taking all ki from everyone Goku agreed. For your argument to work both of them have to go pure brain dead. A character only makes reckless decisions when they have too much confidence in their power like Goku and Vegeta crushing potara and doing janken. But in this case both Goku and Vegeta were badly beaten by Pure Boo and out of energy. They won't deny direct help, Kaio told Goku to use Genki Dama only when no option is left which is exactly what Goku did. That's why when Pure Boo spotted Genki Dama Vegeta said "he's seen us, this is the end" because Gohan was not an option. Goku told that if Satan hadn't helped them with Genki Dama then everyone would have been killed which includes Gohan. Goku won't call earthlings "stupid bastards" if his son is enough. Why would he try a move and despite it failing keep trying it? Why would toriyama never make a single character comment on Pure Boo getting weaker but make Kaioshin mention that Pure Boo lost power through absorption? Try to open up and see things from different perspective. Why would the interviewer ask about final, the most smallest forms being strongest with the example of Pure Boo? The scaling is no different from other arcs,
As much as you want that to be the case, you are saying what isn't said or indicated at all. The ONLY reason given is because Vegeta feels the Earth needs to take care of its own problems for once. Any other reason is purely made up, so arguing that he chose not to go with the alternative because he felt it wouldn't work is completely baseless.

Goku says that if Mr. Satan hadn't been there, everyone would have been killed. He doesn't specify the Genki Dama. If Mr. Satan hadn't been there, then Mr. Buu wouldn't have shown up, and therefore there wouldn't have been anyone around to stall Buu long enough to even come up with using the Dragon Balls to restore Earth in the first place.

Toriyama did heavily imply Pure Buu lost power, and it was only the Dai Kaioushin that weakened Buu in general, as mentioned multiple times.

I've tried looking at it from other angles before, but I come back to this because it's just the simplest and most straightforward. It requires too many leaps in logic, too many contradictions in fact, too many "Oh, he said this, but he must be lying" suppositions for Pure Buu to be the strongest, but it makes so much more sense and is so much more logically straightforward for Pure Buu to be a generally weaker form of Buu (below that of Evil Buu) and someone just strong enough to give Goku and Vegeta trouble.

Why do you think all the manga only databooks say that Pure Buu is weaker, and it's only the anime databooks that put Pure Buu as the strongest?

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Kaboom » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:48 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:32 am
Yet you keep your headcanons going.
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:32 am
Do you see how everyone is reaching out to fit in their desperate headcanons even if they make zero sense? :D :D :D
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Bad headcanon. You really don't make sense... :D :D :D
Darkprince410 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:09 am
Your headcanons are not gonna work here buddy.
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:35 am
You are again adding your own bad headcanons.
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:35 am
Stop the headcanon it's clearly...
There will be no more of this from you.

Disagreement with you does not equate to "headcanon." It's becoming clear that you are only looking for an echo chamber to agree with your own opinions, and have no intention of learning anything from your peers or doing anything but immediately dismissing what they say. I may not be able to change your motivations or your outlook, but I can change your behavior.

If you're not looking to actually have any meaningful discussion, then you're not obligated to post at all.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:44 am

When other characters were torn out of super boo , he lost his powers instantly.

When Super boo lost fat buu(which had both Kaioshin in him), their powers and influence also left instantly.

Moments after the powers and influence were gone, it was openly stated by goku and vegeta that "shouldn't his power be decreasing rather than increasing"

Therefore its not at all speculation. The only power left in the body was kid boo's. The Kaioshin's was gone. Arguing that it was the Kaioshin's power that allowed him to rise doesn't make any sense because NONE of the other absorptions worked that way. Therefore you either have to provide evidence that shows for some reason the Kaioshin's bodies (both) caused a spike in his transformation(which there isn't) or its kid boo's power that raised higher than super buu.


There is a mention of boo power increasing and was never refuted, i can also say the same thing that saying anything else like kid boo getting weaker is headcanon too since no one mentioned that.

Goku said if Genki Dama failed then everyone would have been done in. He calls earthlings "stupid bastards" and told them they all will be killed if they don't give in their energy. There's no way earth can be in danger if Gohan is enough to beat boo.

No he isn't talking to calm his fears but overall. He would not forget his sons out of the blue. Wait, didn't you said Goku believed he can kill boo alone so now you think Goku was weaker than Kid Boo according to his own admission? Either way he was referring to all because they were talking about how to stop boo in future if he's emerged. He never meant both of them that's bad assumption.

He meant all Kaioshin, you're not only reaching out but surpass even that. Inventing your own Canon just so your desperate argument can work. Your "burning remaining ki" idea is fan fiction-esque.

Goku loves a good fight even if he is outmatched. You are making it seem like goku has never fought someone stronger than him for sport. Goku has always choosen to fight people stronger than him. What are you talking about? The entire series is about him fighting people he knew he was outclassed by.

Cell he openly admits he was going to get slammed to the ground by him but fought him anyways. This has happened ALL THE TIME in dbz. How can you say he has never fought anyone he had no chance with? Do you think he really had a chance against perfect cell? He openly admitted several times that he was pretty sure he had no chance at all and that cell was basically indestructible. Vegeta explained to Trunks that his Saiyan pride makes him do this.
No narrative mention of power drop, not once.
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
His power was weakend through the absorbing the south Kaioshin - as Kibito pointed out, he's more powerful and more dangerous. We see him living up to that when he blows up Earth.

The story mentions no such thing as a power decrease - and even IF there were one, it would be minor. There are a couple of reasons this theory doesn't work, namely the Kaioshin energy do not add power to Majin Boo as stated by Babidi, for one. Dabra explicitly stated that they CAN'T take energy of Kibito and Kaioshin but with others they have a chance. The potara lost its powers the moment they enter inside boo's body due to the atmosphere inside (which DBS unnecessarily retconned for no reason). Then there is the issue of the Saiya-jin being arguably more powerful than any of the Kaioshins, as told by Kibito numerous expressions and remarks, including SSJ Gohan lifting the Z sword. This means that whatever power the South Kaioshin added (which is none) wouldn't have been much. Then there is the issue of what is stated - no one mentions a drop in Kid Boo's power (though we do find out later he is stronger than they originally believed) and the fear on Kibito's face when Kid boo appears (no concern of sort was shown for the original Super Boo ) There is also the statement made by Kibito on the absorptions of the Kaioshin actually weakened Boo, though of course you'll debate it was only one that weakened him, but the statement remains.

For argument sake assume kid boo was 5 and South Kai made him 6 but Dai Kaioshin made him 4 which means he was overall weakened. See how bad your arguments are? Then that should settle it He talks about Both the absorptions then says it reduced his Power Level which means he got the power back which was lowered by absorbing Kaioshin, if you refute this than you are just bad at debating. I mentioned a raw fact by taking your narrative of southern Kaioshin into account yet I can prove my points.

So if Pure Evil Boo is equal to Pure Boo and early Fat Boo's Power that fought Goku ssj3 equals that of Good Boo's and Evil Boo's combined, then That Fat Boo which fought Goku in ssj3 is also Stronger than Pure Boo.

If Fat Boo is the result of Kaioshin influence restraining Pure Boo, then how could Pure Evil Boo be Boo's equal, let alone stronger?


Congratulations you played debunked yourself :clap:


Now statements from Manga are irrelevant and things not mentioned in manga are relevant.

Ma=demon lmao. Many sources translate him as Demon Boo. They don't even say "While", Dabra straight way mentioned that they can't use Kaioshin ki but others are option. The same people were originally planning on using human energy who are obviously weaker than Kaioshin.

Again, just because he's Evil itself doesn't make him Most Difficult just due to that. It's because Kaioshin weakened him.

All of your arguments are "only logical explanations" or "indirect implications" yet i am one using headcanons, right? It's not out of character when that's the exact gag toriyama uses with final forms like Kuririn despite having ability to sense ki saying Freeza doesn't look wewj/much stronger. Vegeta despite sensing ki saying Cell doesn't seem to have gotten stronger and even uses the same "Chidizmu" word for Cell too when he's referring to Cell shrinking. Goku himself said that Freeza was more of a runt than he imagined then after Freeza powers up 50% says that he's bluffing, you think Goku can't sense ki? Characters are not infallible. Gathering ki can't make you powerful, it's no different from Piccolo trying to gather ki or Cell gathering ki to destroy whole solar system. Also Goku was anything but confident, the look on his face was hardly that of confidence.
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Goku isn't Perfect, he also thought that Genki-Dama will take Vegeta down in saiyan arc only for it to not work. Goku's statement in Super Boo's body wasn't when he was in ssj3 and he never even tried to go ssj3 because there was some limitation. He was shrunk inside Boo and underpowered too. He went ssj3 against bootenks but you think he's so scared that he won't even do that against a vastly weaker opponent? That doesn't make sense, he also told Piccolo how ssj3 can be better utilized in otherworld because it exhausts him in living world. The same Goku who thought he needs to gather energy for one minute, also preferred Genki-Dama over Gohan's help, You can't just take one on face value and try to fit your own narrative. The same Goku thought the Genki Dama was still not enough with Gohan's Ki. Btw Goku also told that he's not used to ssj3 so his gauging of Boo's power with newly attained ssj3 isn't accurate too.

The fact remains that in both cases when Super boo was near Goku and Pure Boo launched the blast Goku never went ssj3 so it has definitely got to do with power issue or drawbacks of using ssj3 in living realm.

Now you rewrote Japanese lexicon too. Genki in one context means health and in other the basic life energy. And in DBZ the latter is used not former. Hey you either way won't listen to anything toriyama says which goes against your narrative...

The Kai Kai wasn't even introduced yet and it was the same Teleporting like Goku's. Goku never said he agreed due to the reasoning for genki Dama, what are you even reading? When you want it, you make Goku pragmatic like him judging kid boo from his ki but nonsensically choosing a risky solution over easy victory, for someone who was always rooting for kids... To suddenly choose a move which never worked and required them to beg to earthlings? Again if it was something which Goku could have done without someone else's help like beating Freeza or Piccolo alone then it would make sense but that's not how things went, they were desperate and at that point they won't show stupidity since they are not in a position to take down Boo alone. 2 wrongs don't make one right.

You can't prove it other than your "only logical explanation", There's no way Super Boo knows of Kid Boo other way round. That's why Super Boo was afraid of losing consciousness and personality, Boo even managed to punch Satan which no other Super boo could manage to do. Also i doubt Toriyama even came up with the idea of Pure Boo at that point. He's clearly referring to Boo's from Fat form because the Pure Evil Boo is Evil half of fat boo, he's not even kid boo. His clothing is that of Dai Kaioshin too, he's obviously not supposed to know about kid boo.

Goku has shown commenting on character appearances like with Freeza, Vegeta even uses the same "chidizmu" word he used with Perfect Cell. You say Goku can't do that when he did the same thing when he saw Freeza and ki isn't definitive, it can go up or down, it's upto the person. It's not out of character for Goku when he himself later on admits that potara was better and he was trying to show off, are all these evidences irrelevant to you?

Interviewer : In several parts of Dragon Ball, the most powerful character is actually the smallest, cutest and youngest-looking. For example, young Goku, or Freeza and Majin Boo in their final transformations. Is that because kids are small and cute, but also want to be powerful?
Toriyama : I wanted to go against people’s expectation that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger. I consciously tried to switch between telling a straightforward story and telling one that was unconventional and contradictory.
Here he confirms it, he even used the example of kid boo, how can you deny this? Also note how kid goku is separated from examples of Freeza and Kid boo in final form. Kid goku at his time was actually strongest be it RRA or Tenkaichi Budokai or Piccolo Daimao arc and he's talking about Freeza and Boo final forms. You completely miss the point, man you are on purpose missing the point, the 100% form is still smaller than the 3rd form he attained. It's part of his final form, the point of interview is that the last most powerful forms look smaller. As expected according to you, your words > anyone.

You also can't assume kid boo got weaker based on assumptions when they talked about Boo's ki growing and never refuting it ever.


What? What are you talking about? He's referring to both Satan and Boo's help in Genki Dama plan, how can you twist facts so much?


Since you haven't realized it yet, you have debunked your own arguments. It was stated that from process of going from kid to fat boo the power came down, this is after South and Dai both in him, which means irrespective of whatever boost according to you, South Kaioshin gave him, it was brought down by Dai Kaioshin power which means overall result of 2 Kaioshins is still lower power. So if that influence is taken out, kid boo will get back that lowered power through absorptions, you see what I mean? Even with your arguments it's the same thing. That's why Goku and Vegeta sensed his power growing. So even if you think Only Dai Kaioshin weakened him despite both Kaioshins coexisting in Boo's body, it means that he got that blocked power back when Vegeta took out Kaioshin goodness. You can't refute stated fact.


Yea it makes so much sense for the final most smallest looking form to he weaker and its totally not a trope toriyama has been using since Freeza arc.


Not a single time they called Pure Boo weaker, it also says "Buff Boo" is somewhat stronger than Fat boo.
It clearly says "somewhat". You're just deciding to ignore it because you feel troubled if it gets considered in place.

Somewhat means Buff Buu > Fat Buu by a Small amount

Yet Ssj3 Goku > Fat Buu by a large amount. Therefore, Ssj3 Goku > Buff Boo. Your own case debunks yourself and Daizenshuu doesn't say that only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo. Instead, he's the only one who weakened his ferociousness, yet Old Kai states that Kid Buu is the most troublesome/strongest (in context).
It clearly shows you will keep trying to fit in your desperate attempts just so your super boo comes out on top.
Kaboom wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:48 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:32 am
Yet you keep your headcanons going.
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:32 am
Do you see how everyone is reaching out to fit in their desperate headcanons even if they make zero sense? :D :D :D
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Bad headcanon. You really don't make sense... :D :D :D
Darkprince410 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:09 am
Your headcanons are not gonna work here buddy.
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:35 am
You are again adding your own bad headcanons.
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:35 am
Stop the headcanon it's clearly...
There will be no more of this from you.

Disagreement with you does not equate to "headcanon." It's becoming clear that you are only looking for an echo chamber to agree with your own opinions, and have no intention of learning anything from your peers or doing anything but immediately dismissing what they say. I may not be able to change your motivations or your outlook, but I can change your behavior.

If you're not looking to actually have any meaningful discussion, then you're not obligated to post at all.
Why is there any meaning left when even the Manga evidences and anything which goes against his arguments is irrelevant but his indirect "only logical explanations" are better?
there *is* evidence in the Kid Boo sub-arc but he refuses to acknowledge it. I've explained that evidence multiple times now and you keep saying it doesn't exist. I say everyone ignore Gohan. I point out that the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power isn't enough. I point out the Universal Genki Dama can be deflected by Kid Boo. I point out Goku saying without Satan and Good Boo everyone dies. I point out how Goku trains for 10 years and still wants his full power agains Oob.
I mean anyone judging it while keeping in mind Toriyama's storytelling cliches and trope can see, that Super Boo can't be above Kid Boo.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”
When other characters were torn out of super boo , he lost his powers instantly.

When Super boo lost fat buu(which had both Kaioshin in him), their powers and influence also left instantly.

Moments after the powers and influence were gone, it was openly stated by goku and vegeta that "shouldn't his power be decreasing rather than increasing"

Therefore its not at all speculation. The only power left in the body was kid boo's. The Kaioshin's was gone. Arguing that it was the Kaioshin's power that allowed him to rise doesn't make any sense because NONE of the other absorptions worked that way.



Everytime someone was removed from Boo his power dropped instantly, why would he get stronger only to get weaker in one page despite no evidence saying he got weaker? If your argument is South Kaioshin powered him up then there's no reason for him to get his power after power source is removed from inside. The composition of buff and Kid boo is same and no statement was made about his ki going down from super boo to kid boo overall. Even if you think South Kaioshin powered him up i can debunk that claim, later in this post.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P1.3
Context: evil Boo continues to revert to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “…H-hey…He’s changed into an awfully bulky guy…”
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
The word Vegeta used here is the exact same he used for Perfect Cell when he was referring to him shrinking in Final form. No mention of Ki. Also, Here Goku never mentioned that ki went down, only that they "might" be able to do something. The first mission of Vegetto was not to kill Boo but take the kids and Piccolo out. Here they were successfully able to hide the kids and now were left with no burden like taking care of kids. Either way it's really unlikely that Vegeta and Goku will be judging Boo differently because Goku's statement is like a reply to Vegeta's shrinking comment. Goku himself commented on Freeza's size the moment he saw him, Vegeta already did that with Cell so its not like these characters are infallible. The narrative still never makes it clear or evident that Boo is weakened, on the contrary Toriyama like every arc kept drawing people reacting opposite, like one Panel showing saiyans laughing after seeing Kid boo and other panel showing Kibitoshin terrified.
Toriyama has a habit of doing it, he makes one character troll the final form but other telling the truth. With Freeza Kuririn was trying to downplay him and Piccolo corrects him. With Cell, Vegeta was downplaying him but Kuririn predicted earlier that this Cell is more powerful. How can one believe Goku and Vegeta were absolutely right?
Then Kibitoshin gives his backstory :
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
2 things to notice here, first is how Kibitoshin made absolutely no mention of South Kaioshin powering up Boo and then only difference between Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin absorbed Boo is him becoming controllable. Elder Kaioshin asks him if the First Boo was most difficult and kibitoshin replies by talking about absorption lowering his power. Because the Plural of "Kyushu" is "Kyushu" only and with context it becomes Plural like cell talking about absorption of human essence.

"absorption", being singular can also refer to a plural picture as the example given. The context here refers to ALL the absorptions. Dragon Ball Z adaptation has interpreted the statement the same way, that's why they keep on calling him strongest boo.

"through absorption" goes as simple as it gets. It generalizes the idea that through the entire process of absorption, he got weaker.

Which means, there is no "specific Kaioshin" it refers to at all.

The thing is, Dai Kaioshin's effect according to the Manga wad ONLY making him more controllable. Which means in terms of dangerousness, Buff Boo = Kid Boo, but Fat Boo is different.

Even if i listen to your argument of South Kaioshin powering up Boo, it still doesn't change the fact that after absorbing Dai Kaioshin how power went even lower than Kid Boo's. Then that should settle it, He talks about Both the absorptions then says it reduced his Power Level. Which means even if South Kaioshin according to you made him stronger, Dai Kaioshin made him even more weaker and which means removing both will bring him the power back.

Now you see why Goku was talking about Boo's Power growing instead? That's that blocked power after absorption of gods.

After Kibitoshin foreshadowed Boo's Power, they waste no time in displaying that. First Pure Boo launches a smaller fast moving attack which Vegeta deflected, then Pure Boo grins and launches a bigger more powerful attack which forces Goku into surrender. Again this is a Toriyama trope, like making Freeza prove everyone wrong by killing dende by a move no one even saw. By making Cell take Vegeta's kick head on with no damage and here making Boo unleash an attack that Goku surrendered to. He isn't the kind of guy to lose hope, when Piccolo was gonna blow up everyone in 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai he countered, when Vegeta was trying to blow up earth with Gyallic Ho, Goku countered it, when Cell was gonna launch Kamehameha Goku countered it but you think Goku would just run away from a weaker form? Toriyama had proven that the bigger version of same attack is more powerful. This is no different, not to mention Goku himself admitted he can't deflect Boo's blast even before it was completed and it was way more slow moving than the earlier blast Vegeta countered :
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
You earlier in post said Goku's statement inside Super boo and him wanting to fight kid boo should prove it, Yet Goku was going to sacrifice the entire universe to come up with a plan to beat Kid Boo. He never mentioned any ki decrease in boo as his excuse to fight him unfused, he only uses Fair fight excuse to fight alone. Toriyama has a trend of making Goku fight alone with strongest forms or villains, Vegeta, Final Freeza or Perfect Cell. When Goku entered to fight them all he was way weaker than them, the entire character of Goku is fighting vastly powerful opponents. Toriyama confirms it as Goku's true desire to fight one-on-one and Daizenshuu also said that it was Goku's Saiyan blood stirring which made him go one-on-one with Boo. It also states Goku fought Kid Boo at Full Power without holding back.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3...However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Goku is for the first time going to fight without holding back and with his own power.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.6
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed by Boo]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”


Here we go direct confirmation from Vegeta who along with Goku was wanting to fight him alone and did janken.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7
Context: after one of Goku’s attacks damages Boo
Goku: “That bastard…Even though he can quickly return to normal, he’s playing around by purposefully drawing it out…”
Boo is clearly lollygagging
Reminder that this villain tanked 2 Kamehamehas and had zero fall in stamina and after fighting with Goku he was dancing around.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Goku admits that him wanting to take down Boo alone was a mistake and potara was better. He even mentioned that he was showing off near Kaioshins and Vegeta.

I know Goku ssj3 even claimed that bringing your ki the maximum would have a chance to destroy kid boo , plus he said he would need time is an opportunity, a very similar situation to that Goku and Piccolo had with raditz where piccolo needed goku for that distract yourself raditz, to piccolo to have the opportunity to try to destroy raditz. Goku still admits he should have used the merger from the start, for defeat kid boo , in other words the fact that Goku need the help of vegeta to distract kid boo only implies that he could not defeat kid boo alone, implying once again in superiority of kid boo about goku ssj3.

This isn't first time a character has talked about gathering ki, previously we saw exact same scenario with Piccolo and Goku vs Raditz fight :
Piccolo : Yea That's Part of The Problem, But This Technique Takes a Lot of Time to Build up The Necessary Ki. While I'm Doing that, You're Going to Have to Fight Him Alone and Keep Him Distracted.
Gathering Ki has got nothing to do with getting stronger, Cell also tried to do the same with Gohan by gathering big Ki, that doesn't mean he was stronger.
Context: while charging the Kamehameha
Cell: “I’ve already gathered enough ki power to blow away not only the Earth, but the solar system as well!”
Random people far away: “Wh-what’s happening!?” “It’s an earthquake…!”

this becomes even more evident when goku try to destroy kid boo with Genkidama that even gohan giving your ki to maximum, was still not enough to defeat kid boo , according goku :

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P9.1
Context: Dende asks Kaioshin to teleport him to go heal Goku
Kaioshin: “So-sorry…I used up my stamina just now [when he contributed to the Genki-Dama]…Until I recover, I can’t teleport…”

Different from other genkidamas that extracts only some of the energy of things, the Super Genkidama used to destroy kid boo would go to extract the energy from the things to the their limit, when friends of Goku and the entire universe gave their ki, to Goku, Goku was wearing the energy of all to maximum, on point that could kill everything if he is not careful.

Chapter: 212 (DBZ 18), P5.1-2
Context: explaining the technique after Goku blows up a large brick with a Genki-Dama made from the energy of Kaio's planet
Kaio: “The Genki-Dama is a technique that takes just a little bit of the various energies held by grass or trees, humans or animals, or even in objects and the atmosphere, gathers it all together and then fires it. Even the Genki-Dama of such a small planet as this one had that much destructive power. The Earth where you’ll be fighting is so large you can’t even compare it to here. And if you’re able to make the sun, with its gigantic energy, into your ally…It will be a Genki-Dama with outrageous power. If you mess up, you could destroy the planet which you’re supposed to protect.”

Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P2.2-5, P3.1-2
Kuririn: “It-it’s huge…And it’s getting even bigger…”
Piccolo: “Is it really that big?”
Gohan: “On Earth it was about this big [he holds out his hands]”
Kuririn: “Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters…He shouldn’t be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet…Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets…
Piccolo: “Freeza doesn’t seem to have noticed yet…So why doesn’t Goku attack with that ball right away?...”
Kuririn: “Goku’s definitely thinking that if he doesn’t gather more ki and make it even huger, it won’t be able to defeat Freeza…”

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P4.1
Goku: “This thing’s big weakness is the time it takes to gather ki…”
I have shown you all evidences of how the series never tried to distinguish between Genki and ki and genki has been shown to be interchangeably used with Power too. It's obvious that traditional Genki-Dama took little bit of Ki but Super Genki-Dama was about taking every bit of Ki possible. You can't die after giving all your Ki just badly exhausted like Vegeta described, as if they ran as fast as they could have. It's evident in the show that when a person uses all his ki he just becomes unable to move and badly exhausted. This means Gohan gave all his Ki yet it wasn't enough to Kill Pure Boo.

No kid who watched the show would come up with weird explanations of everyone not giving their power but health. These all things about Genki-Dama only taking your "Health energy" and not normal energy came from western fandom only. I have actually confirmed it with many Japanese fans on twitter and they were laughing when i told them western fans think that the Genki-Dama only takes Health energy or Soul spiritual energy and not ki.

Gen-ki itself means origin of Ki or basic life energy. Genki can also mean full of energy or energetic. When Goku took senzu and recovered his energy he even said "Genki Zenkai".

Tell me where do you think i am reaching out and other dude isn't?

Everytime someone on Kanzenshuu brings up the argument of kid boo being above super boo its like they are seen like villains. Everyone just mocks them as if popular opinions are facts. The Manga at no point explicitly mentioned super boo is above kid boo or Kid boo was weaker than Gohan.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:11 am

When other characters were torn out of super boo , he lost his powers instantly.
Then again, explain why Buu takes so long to revert from Evil Buu to Pure Buu. If those influences weren't within Buu anymore, then he should have transformed into Pure Buu instantly, but it took a considerable length of time, meaning that something within him was keeping him from just instantly transforming. Likewise, why would Buu stall out long enough in his South Kaioushin Buu form for Vegeta to comment that he's getting ready to transform again. There has to be some reason for it, yet you've not given one.
There is a mention of boo power increasing and was never refuted, i can also say the same thing that saying anything else like kid boo getting weaker is headcanon too since no one mentioned that.
It is heavily implied that his power did drop though, as mentioned multiple times. Goku stated he and Vegeta had no chance against Evil Buu, with nothing said or shown to refute that, yet Goku believes that, at full power, he can destroy Pure Buu. Since there's no indication whatsoever that he's excluding Super Saiyan 3 in his first comment, then the only way that logically works is if Pure Buu is weaker than Evil buu.
No he isn't talking to calm his fears but overall. He would not forget his sons out of the blue. Wait, didn't you said Goku believed he can kill boo alone so now you think Goku was weaker than Kid Boo according to his own admission? Either way he was referring to all because they were talking about how to stop boo in future if he's emerged. He never meant both of them that's bad assumption.
He isn't forgetting his sons. His comment is directed toward Vegeta because Vegeta's the only one that's showing fear or concern about Buu at this point. Gohan and the others aren't even there at the time Goku is saying it (they're still on Kaioushin's planet), so unless he's saying that also about Kibitoshin and the others, then the only logical person he is saying that to is Vegeta.
He meant all Kaioshin, you're not only reaching out but surpass even that. Inventing your own Canon just so your desperate argument can work. Your "burning remaining ki" idea is fan fiction-esque.
It explains why Buu took so long to transform from Evil Buu to Pure Buu. It explains why there was a brief increase in power before a heavily implied decrease in power.
Goku loves a good fight even if he is outmatched. You are making it seem like goku has never fought someone stronger than him for sport. Goku has always choosen to fight people stronger than him. What are you talking about? The entire series is about him fighting people he knew he was outclassed by.
Then explain why he's too scared to even attempt to fight Evil Buu? Yes, Goku does like fighting enemies stronger than him, but at least if he believes he stands a chance of winning or if he has ulterior motives to why he's fighting. If he knows he stands no chance, he's not going to fight.
Cell he openly admits he was going to get slammed to the ground by him but fought him anyways. This has happened ALL THE TIME in dbz. How can you say he has never fought anyone he had no chance with? Do you think he really had a chance against perfect cell? He openly admitted several times that he was pretty sure he had no chance at all and that cell was basically indestructible. Vegeta explained to Trunks that his Saiyan pride makes him do this.
And he had reason to fight Cell. He wanted to show Gohan just how much stronger he (Gohan) was in comparison to him.
The story mentions no such thing as a power decrease - and even IF there were one, it would be minor. There are a couple of reasons this theory doesn't work, namely the Kaioshin energy do not add power to Majin Boo as stated by Babidi, for one. Dabra explicitly stated that they CAN'T take energy of Kibito and Kaioshin but with others they have a chance. The potara lost its powers the moment they enter inside boo's body due to the atmosphere inside (which DBS unnecessarily retconned for no reason). Then there is the issue of the Saiya-jin being arguably more powerful than any of the Kaioshins, as told by Kibito numerous expressions and remarks, including SSJ Gohan lifting the Z sword. This means that whatever power the South Kaioshin added (which is none) wouldn't have been much. Then there is the issue of what is stated - no one mentions a drop in Kid Boo's power (though we do find out later he is stronger than they originally believed) and the fear on Kibito's face when Kid boo appears (no concern of sort was shown for the original Super Boo ) There is also the statement made by Kibito on the absorptions of the Kaioshin actually weakened Boo, though of course you'll debate it was only one that weakened him, but the statement remains.
No explanation as to why is given as to why Dabra says they can't use Kaioushin or Kibito's energy, so saying it's incompatible as if it's fact is, by your own words, headcanon. Regardless of whether you want to accept it or not, the official reason for Vegetto de-fusing inside Buu is because of the time limit. You can't brush it off just because it refutes your argument. As mentioned before, the legend behind the Z Sword is just that numerous Kaioushin had tried, not all of them, so without it being said that South Kaioushin actually tried, you can't use that as evidence either, and Kibito's every reaction related to Gohan's strength was a MORTAL having such strength, not being bewildered by such strength in general.

Only Vegeta indicated that Buu was more powerful than he thought, not Goku. Goku was just overconfident of his abilities to take on Buu when it came to Buu's stamina, which is separate from his strength.
For argument sake assume kid boo was 5 and South Kai made him 6 but Dai Kaioshin made him 4 which means he was overall weakened. See how bad your arguments are? Then that should settle it He talks about Both the absorptions then says it reduced his Power Level which means he got the power back which was lowered by absorbing Kaioshin, if you refute this than you are just bad at debating. I mentioned a raw fact by taking your narrative of southern Kaioshin into account yet I can prove my points.
He got the power back that was suppressed by Dai Kaioushin. That's all his statement says. Since South Kaioushin did not weaken him (but strengthened him, as established by what was stated earlier about what ALL absorptions do to Buu), that means that he lost power when he lost South Kaioushin.
If Fat Boo is the result of Kaioshin influence restraining Pure Boo, then how could Pure Evil Boo be Boo's equal, let alone stronger?
Explain these formulas then.

Pure Evil Buu + Mr. Buu = Evil Buu

Evil Buu - Mr. Buu = Pure Buu

Pure Evil Buu + Mr Buu = Evil Buu - Mr. Buu = Pure Buu

One side is adding Mr. Buu to form Evil Buu, and the other side is removing the exact same Mr. Buu to form Pure Buu

Evil Buu doesn't do any kind of training or anything else to result in any kind of power increase, and the Mr. Buu that came out is the exact same strength as the Mr. Buu that went in. How could Pure Buu be anything but equal in strength to Pure Evil Buu in this case?
Ma=demon lmao. Many sources translate him as Demon Boo. They don't even say "While", Dabra straight way mentioned that they can't use Kaioshin ki but others are option. The same people were originally planning on using human energy who are obviously weaker than Kaioshin.
Ma also can translate to magic (Herms even brings that up in his break down of Buu's name, so unless you suddenly disagree with him, you have to take that as a possible alternative). Dabra doesn't explain why though, and, as said, they were trying to use other sources when they were trying to keep under the radar from Kaioushin, but when it came to the situation at the ship, they went with what would offer them the most in the shortest time frame.
Again, just because he's Evil itself doesn't make him Most Difficult just due to that. It's because Kaioshin weakened him.
Rou Kaioushin DID NOT KNOW that Dai Kaioushin had weakened Buu. The only information he had when he asked Kibitoshin if Pure Buu was the most troublesome was that he was evil itself and uncontrollable. Context is everything here, and context establishes Rou Kaioushin's question was related to Buu's nature.
All of your arguments are "only logical explanations" or "indirect implications" yet i am one using headcanons, right? It's not out of character when that's the exact gag toriyama uses with final forms like Kuririn despite having ability to sense ki saying Freeza doesn't look wewj/much stronger. Vegeta despite sensing ki saying Cell doesn't seem to have gotten stronger and even uses the same "Chidizmu" word for Cell too when he's referring to Cell shrinking. Goku himself said that Freeza was more of a runt than he imagined then after Freeza powers up 50% says that he's bluffing, you think Goku can't sense ki? Characters are not infallible. Gathering ki can't make you powerful, it's no different from Piccolo trying to gather ki or Cell gathering ki to destroy whole solar system. Also Goku was anything but confident, the look on his face was hardly that of confidence.
As said multiple times, other characters do do that. I readily said that other characters have shown the tendency to judge based on physical appearance instead of sensing ki, but Goku is not one of them. Goku never once calls Freeza a runt, nor does he make any other comment about Freeza's physical appearance and judged him based on his appearance. And no, Goku didn't say that Freeza was bluffing when he went up to 50%. The moment he did, that's when Goku outright stated that he WASN'T bluffing, meaning again, he was judging based on actual ki detection.

Except Goku specifically says he is gathering his ki close to his full power:
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
Goku isn't Perfect, he also thought that Genki-Dama will take Vegeta down in saiyan arc only for it to not work. Goku's statement in Super Boo's body wasn't when he was in ssj3 and he never even tried to go ssj3 because there was some limitation. He was shrunk inside Boo and underpowered too. He went ssj3 against bootenks but you think he's so scared that he won't even do that against a vastly weaker opponent? That doesn't make sense, he also told Piccolo how ssj3 can be better utilized in otherworld because it exhausts him in living world. The same Goku who thought he needs to gather energy for one minute, also preferred Genki-Dama over Gohan's help, You can't just take one on face value and try to fit your own narrative. The same Goku thought the Genki Dama was still not enough with Gohan's Ki. Btw Goku also told that he's not used to ssj3 so his gauging of Boo's power with newly attained ssj3 isn't accurate too.
He didn't bother using Super Saiyan 3 inside Buu's body because there wasn't imminent danger of being attacked. He chose to go Super Saiyan 3 against Gotenks Buu because Buu was charging right at him, but when they were inside Buu, they didn't see themselves in as immediate danger (they didn't even go Super Saiyan 2, which says how immediate they felt they were in danger). Goku chose the Genki Dama over Gohan's help because he agreed with the reasoning behind Vegeta wanting to use it, which had nothing to do with Gohan's strength. Goku thought the Genki Dama wasn't enough with Gohan's genki, not his ki (as the Genki Dama only goes off genki). Him taking time to transform into it doesn't mean that he wasn't aware of how strong it was, especially since that same Goku was confident he could defeat Fat Buu with the same form. If you believe that Goku was correct and factual in saying he could defeat Fat Buu with Super Saiyan 3, then you have to accept that he could gauge his strength in Super Saiyan 3 and would know whether he stood a chance or not against an opponent with it.
Now you rewrote Japanese lexicon too. Genki in one context means health and in other the basic life energy. And in DBZ the latter is used not former. Hey you either way won't listen to anything toriyama says which goes against your narrative...
No, genki only means that, which is why Toriyama even refers to life energy as something else (seiki) in the Buu arc.
The Kai Kai wasn't even introduced yet and it was the same Teleporting like Goku's. Goku never said he agreed due to the reasoning for genki Dama, what are you even reading? When you want it, you make Goku pragmatic like him judging kid boo from his ki but nonsensically choosing a risky solution over easy victory, for someone who was always rooting for kids... To suddenly choose a move which never worked and required them to beg to earthlings? Again if it was something which Goku could have done without someone else's help like beating Freeza or Piccolo alone then it would make sense but that's not how things went, they were desperate and at that point they won't show stupidity since they are not in a position to take down Boo alone. 2 wrongs don't make one right.
The Kai Kai had already been introduced well before then, having first been used by Kibito when teleporting him, Kaioushin, and Gohan to Kaioushin's planet, and Kibitoshin explains that it works differently than Goku's when he brings it up to Goku and the others about teleporting to New Namek for the Dragon Balls, stating that his ability allows him to teleport to any planet in the lower world without restriction.

There is ONE reason given for why the Genki Dama was chosen. Just one. It had nothing to do with Gohan or Gotenks not being powerful enough, but just because Vegeta felt Earth needed to handle its own problems for once. Saying that there was any other reason is baseless. And Goku even commented that the Genki Dama wouldn't work until Vegeta said how they'd power it, which was taking genki from the population to its limits.
You can't prove it other than your "only logical explanation", There's no way Super Boo knows of Kid Boo other way round. That's why Super Boo was afraid of losing consciousness and personality, Boo even managed to punch Satan which no other Super boo could manage to do. Also i doubt Toriyama even came up with the idea of Pure Boo at that point. He's clearly referring to Boo's from Fat form because the Pure Evil Boo is Evil half of fat boo, he's not even kid boo. His clothing is that of Dai Kaioshin too, he's obviously not supposed to know about kid boo.
It doesn't matter whether Toriyama had come up with the idea of Pure Buu at the time or not. Pure Buu is the first Buu, and with Gotenks Buu knowing all of his own history, he'd know the strength he had in that form, yet insisted he was the strongest Majin.
You also can't assume kid boo got weaker based on assumptions when they talked about Boo's ki growing and never refuting it ever.
It's not "assumptions". It's heavy implications. It doesn't need to be explicitly stated when the rest of the facts presented fill in the blank. If you come home and find your trash can knocked over and your dog covered in garbage, do you need to have seen the dog physically knock over the trash can to know that he did? No, you can take the facts you have and come to a logical conclusion. Same as with Pure Buu growing weaker.
Since you haven't realized it yet, you have debunked your own arguments. It was stated that from process of going from kid to fat boo the power came down, this is after South and Dai both in him, which means irrespective of whatever boost according to you, South Kaioshin gave him, it was brought down by Dai Kaioshin power which means overall result of 2 Kaioshins is still lower power. So if that influence is taken out, kid boo will get back that lowered power through absorptions, you see what I mean? Even with your arguments it's the same thing. That's why Goku and Vegeta sensed his power growing. So even if you think Only Dai Kaioshin weakened him despite both Kaioshins coexisting in Boo's body, it means that he got that blocked power back when Vegeta took out Kaioshin goodness. You can't refute stated fact.
All you pointed out is Fat Buu being weaker than Pure Buu, which is already known. Nothing about what you said contradicts Evil Buu being stronger. Evil Buu has all the power of the absorptions of South Kaioushin and Dai Kaioushin, with only a fraction of the positive influence of Dai Kaioushin impacting him that Fat Buu did. That's why his power greatly increased from where it was as Fat Buu despite them being comprised of the same parts. He was Pure Evil Buu/Pure Buu + both Kaioushin's power with virtually no decrease in strength from Dai Kaioushin, whereas Fat Buu had considerable power decrease from Dai Kaioushin.
Not a single time they called Pure Boo weaker, it also says "Buff Boo" is somewhat stronger than Fat boo.
Dragon Ball Forever manga guide states that removing absorptions made Buu weaker, and illustrated that by showing the panel of Vegeta removing Mr. Buu. It made no indication whatsoever that Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu, and that illustration establishes just the opposite.
Yet Ssj3 Goku > Fat Buu by a large amount. Therefore, Ssj3 Goku > Buff Boo. Your own case debunks yourself and Daizenshuu doesn't say that only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo. Instead, he's the only one who weakened his ferociousness, yet Old Kai states that Kid Buu is the most troublesome/strongest (in context).
Rou Kaioushin says he's the most troublesome based on his evil nature (in context). He had nothing to go on in regards to Buu's strength, since nothing about what information he's told, before he asks that question, even hints at that.
I have shown you all evidences of how the series never tried to distinguish between Genki and ki and genki has been shown to be interchangeably used with Power too. It's obvious that traditional Genki-Dama took little bit of Ki but Super Genki-Dama was about taking every bit of Ki possible. You can't die after giving all your Ki just badly exhausted like Vegeta described, as if they ran as fast as they could have. It's evident in the show that when a person uses all his ki he just becomes unable to move and badly exhausted. This means Gohan gave all his Ki yet it wasn't enough to Kill Pure Boo.
You've yet to show at any point that characters saying genki are meaning ki though. Your point would have some merit if characters used genki interchangeably with ki at other points in the franchise, but the only time that genki is ever used is in regards to the Genki Dama or, "shockingly" when regarding the health or vigor of an individual. You can and would die if you gave all your ki (that's what #19 was doing to Goku and what Gero was doing to Yamcha, completely draining their ki), but given that the person only donated his genki, and not his whole ki (as the Genki Dama only draws upon genki), he was simply heavily exhausted. Gohan only donated his genki, not his full ki.
No kid who watched the show would come up with weird explanations of everyone not giving their power but health. These all things about Genki-Dama only taking your "Health energy" and not normal energy came from western fandom only. I have actually confirmed it with many Japanese fans on twitter and they were laughing when i told them western fans think that the Genki-Dama only takes Health energy or Soul spiritual energy and not ki.
Support that with actual evidence. I can just as easily say that I confirmed it with Japanese fans on twitter that it's clear as crystal that they only donated a portion of their overall strength and not their entire strength. Let's not resort to unsubstantiated sources to try and support your point.

The simple and undeniable fact of the matter is that Toriyama himself stated that genki is just one of many elements that make up ki, and it is established fact that the Genki Dama is comprised of this element (you don't see any other element being called upon, just that one), meaning that it does not take full ki.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 am

It's not so long in manga, it's one continuous reverse transformation. If he had stayed in buff form then your argument would have made sense but he was continuously going back, no one ever refuted that his ki came down or anything. Again, that was to show what South Kaioshin turned him into and when they talked about South Kaioshin, no one
Says South Kaioshin a flea made him strong. It makes no sense for one to weaken him and other to power up him. What even is that? None of the external guides outside Manga said that South Kaioshin powered him up. He was going back in reverse, it was different from other absorptions because here Boo was weakened with absorptions not powdered up. But we already know that Dabra stated that he can't use Kaioshin ki to revive Boo, which makes this clear why. Kaioshin nature is hurting to boo. There is nothing in him, the composition of Kid boo and buff boo is same, you can't even say Dai Kaioshin was taken out and South was left. You don't suddenly get stronger when your power source is vanished. You can't suddenly get stronger then get weaker in 2 pages, where did that power go? Again in manga it's fast, anime like always dragged it. It's reverse transformation but we do know that absorptions weakened him according to kibitoshin so that rising power was that blocked power.

Please refrain from using that Evil Boo example, Goku saying he will be killed with Vegeta has no bearing on kid Boo's power. With kid boo nothing has been shown to even refute the comment Goku made about ki increasing. Now you are changing wordings, listen, he never said at full power he can kill boo because all that time he was fighting him at full power only. Even Daizenshuu referenced that and this Daizenshuu is based on manga not even anime. It says even a Full power ssj3 Goku can't beat boo. Charging ki close to full power means Goku surpassing himself like Piccolo did with Raditz :
Piccolo : Yea That's Part of The Problem, But This Technique Takes a Lot of Time to Build up The Necessary Ki. While I'm Doing that, You're Going to Have to Fight Him Alone and Keep Him Distracted.
This is clearly the same thing as here. One opponent gathering ki and other distracting the villain. Gathering ki over a minute close to full power is literally Goku surpassing himself.
Context: while charging the Kamehameha
Cell: “I’ve already gathered enough ki power to blow away not only the Earth, but the solar system as well!”
Random people far away: “Wh-what’s happening!?” “It’s an earthquake…!”
Gathering Ki has got nothing to do with overpowering someone in power. He's just trying to gather enough energy to wipe boo only to find it was not enough after one minute. Nowhere in the Series they take Time to do anything related to power Other than Gathering Ki like Piccolo or Cell which is what Goku did here Its Happened Twice before Its Not random.
Later on after Gohan's ki too he thought it wasn't enough to overpower boo. Either way the statement about Boo's ki going up was never refuted either way so kid boo > super boo. No one mentioned anything close to power dropping. If Toriyama wanted to he could have made them mention it. If you're using your "only logical explanation" then i can also say Elder Kaioshin meant "Most Troublesome Boo" in terms of power. Stay consistent with your logic, you can't assume something then ignore other statement just because it's not explicit enough. Btw Goku also thought Genki-Dama can kill Vegeta in Saiyan arc and after half of its power was lost he still thought the remaining can kill Vegeta.
Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”
Goku isn't infallible, not once did he ever admitted that if he had charged the ideal attack he wanted to he would have taken care of boo.

Vegeta's showing fear because no one can stop Boo again. There's no point in him saying that to only Vegeta he's talking about everyone. That's why he believes that without training one-on-one no one can beat Boo. Vegeta is already out of question, he's not even a match for Fat Boo there no reason to just talk about him. This whole arc it was all about him training kids, he won't just forget about it. He's obviously referring to everyone, otherwise Vegeta won't be scared, it's your vague assumption that it's because Gohan would magically get lost and Kid boo will blow earth up, even if that's the case they have Dragon Balls and other ways to bring Gohan back. His concern is because no one is there to beat Boo, Vegetto is the only one Goku mentioned. There's no point in telling you no matter what anyone says you will keep forming new "logical explanations".

Except you are the only one with this interpretation. Funny thing is no one mentioned decrease in power when that's the case everytime so yea in our narrative it is but in DB manga there isn't. Otherwise Perfect Cell > Semi-Perfect Cell because Vegeta used the same comment as kid boo about shrinking and Android 16 mentioned Vegeta was still more powerful. Because character confidence >>> any evidence or feat. No?

He was shrunk and wasn't sure of getting his size back, he mentioned to Piccolo how ssj3 can be better utilized in afterlife than living world, he was most likely tired that's why he never goes ssj3 against a vastly weaker opponent even though he did go ssj3 against bootenks. He never goes to fight thinking he stands a chance, it's because of his desire and pride. Karin already told Goku that cell was stronger but he still goes and later on then trunks was trying to give Goku a senzu Vegeta explanation was that of warrior pride. Goku was a fodder to Freeza and couldn't even fight 50% Freeza on-par when Freeza started to fight earnestly yet he fought because of his desire. If you read saiyan arc battle it even has a narration too regarding Goku's Saiyan blood stirring and how he loves getting driven in corner and fighting strong guys.

That still doesn't override the fact about Vegeta saying that fate of the earth not mattering Goku as much as his pride. It's later on when he was losing energy that he gave up, you think he fought Vegeta and freeza because he had a chance? Only to realize that he was far outclassed.

Because Gods Pure energy can't be used for a demon. Regardless you're relying on new information 2 decades later then i will also use anime statement of kid boo being strongest boo because whatever is in manga goes against your arguments. Are you kidding me? You're saying the strongest and bulkier Kaioshin won't do the thing most fitting for him? No that's bad interpretation. Kibito kept on telling Gohan that no God was able to pull it.

:D :D :D that's not gonna work anymore dude. According to kibitoshin the result after 2 Kaioshins was him getting weaker than before then irrespective of whatever boost South Kaioshin gave him(none) , the power he lost was regained, thus, in every transformation there was a part of suppressed power which Dai Kaioshin was holding and both Kaioshins influence was in boo so that explains why his power was going up. You are just mixing everything up, old Kaioshin was never told that boo had 2 gods in him and just because kibitoshin doesn't tell him doesn't mean South Kaioshin powered him up. There no need to tell him when there was no need, it's only when he saw Super boo revert to kid boo that he finally realized it. He never lost South Kaioshin without Dai Kaioshin that's the funny thing.
For argument sake assume kid boo was 5 and South Kai made him 6 but Dai Kaioshin made him 4 which means he was overall weakened that should settle it He talks about Both the absorptions then says it reduced his Power Level, as in boo after absorbing both Kaioshins turning into fat boo and getting weaker than his original kid form. That means the Kaioshin influence consists of both Kaioshins, South and Dai and overall result was Minus. Still confused? Man, this argument is settled,
I even took your narrative into account still it doesn't change the fact that with both Kaioshins in him his power was weakened.

Kaioshin stated, Fat boo before splitting is weaker than Pure Boo.

Fat Boo before splitting is stronger than Pure Evil Boo who is told to have taken most of Good Boo's Power while splitting.

Fat Boo after splitting + Pure Evil Boo is equal to Fat boo before partition

Pure evil boo can't be above Majin Boo without splitting who's already weaker than Kid Boo.

There's no point in staying under radar from Kaioshin when the people are already with Kaioshin and they are willing to take whatever energy is possible to revive boo that's why they went to Tenkaichi Budokai in the first place and never expected earthlings to have the power that ssj had so i see absolutely no reason to say "we can't use the energy from Kaioshin and kibito". Either the energy won't have any effect or it can weaken boo. We know this is true because later Kaioshin established that boo got weakened by Kaioshins.

Your narrative makes no sense for one Kaioshin to weaken him and other to boost his power, only Dai Kaioshin weakening him because Pure heart even though Gohan never weakened him with pure heart. Try using Dabra statement with this and it makes sense that both Kaioshins weaken him.

No he knew it that's why he instantly deduced if he was the most difficult boo and kibitoshin answered in power. Again, someone's nature can't make him more difficult than all the 5 varieties of boo he saw. He wasn't even fed anything about boo blowing planets or being almost impossible to defeat, just that he was evil and made controllable. That's not enough to deduce him as most difficult.

Oh boy, now even manga evidences are being ignored? Tell me what did Goku say when he first saw Freeza then? Even while doing kaio Ken times 20 Kamehameha he wanted Freeza's statement to turn out to be a lie which means Goku isn't some scouter and ki isn't definitive. It can fluctuate besides Goku calls Freeza "You're more of a runt than i imagined"


Now stop twisting things around, if he's capable of using ssj3 near bootenks but not using ssj3 near boo inside his body that means something is wrong. He never agreed with Vegeta's reasoning but taking ki right upto their limits thing. Go read dragon ball Manga again, if Goku was agreeing with Vegeta due to plan fitting his ideals then Goku was agreeing with Vegeta judging boo off his size. You can't just change his character whenever you want. He has shown that he's not like Vegeta according to your own argument, he isn't dumb enough to ignore Gohan's help. "i will literally go against everything established because whatever i say is perfect and correct, Toriyama who?"
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”
With Fat Boo he never went all out and never outright said he can't beat boo only to observe Boo's fights and reach conclusion. With kid boo he was literally in heat of the battle and trying to figure out how to make up for his stupidity since he's the one who refused potara. He was clearly not even used to gathering ki with living body, again he already admitted being full of himself to act cool. So yes according to his admission potara was better choice and he showed off thinking things would have turned better.

Gen-ki is origin of Ki. In DBZ episode, when Goku made a Genki-Dama for Freeza they even explain the Genki in context of DBZ in Steve Simmons subtitles.

Then Goku was also stronger than Freeza all along but just tired due to dende not healing him and he chose Genki Dama because he wanted power of other planets to beat boo. Yes that's what i was expecting from you changing the lines. Freeza actually got weaker in final form from 2rd form that's why Kuririn commented that he doesn't look much evil, Piccolo's concern then was about his nature not his power, he could have killed him if dende healed him but he wanted Goku to beat him but he wanted Goku to beat him because Goku wanted to fight Freeza to avenge races. Let's play headcanon and twisting narratives game.


Yet you can't even show one proof of Super Boo having previous knowledge of kid boo to the point of him saying he will stop being himself and being born from evil side of fat boo (same clothing) not kid boo. Bootenks said strongest Majin in past, present and future yet he got stronger in boohan form and contradicts his own self.


No, what you're doing is pulling the most baseless ideas or assumptions and fitting it in whatever clumsy way possible just so you can win.


Again contradicting yourself. If result of absorbing 2 Kaioshins was power going down then it doesn't take a genius to figure out what would happen if opposite happened, that is goodness of Kaioshin powering him up. There was always a fraction of power getting blocked in Boo's body due to Kaioshin influence.

Boo without any Kaioshin influences on his soul is at his most powerful. This is stated in the mangas. Both in the original japanese manga and anime. Super Boo had Kaioshin influences, as soon as they were removed, his chi is stated to become stronger and the result of this is Kid Boo. Literally, Super Boo minus all Kaioshin results in Kid Boo.

Fat Boo does represent both Kaioshins, as when fat Boo is removed, Boo returns to his original form that has no one absorbed. Disconnecting Good Boo = disconnecting BOTH South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin. It's impossible for Boo to be accessing his South Kaioshin-absorbed ki because South Kaioshin is no longer connected. The ki that began increasing from Super Boo's ki when fat Boo was removed was Kid Boo's ki all along, as that is literally the only ki left in Boo's system.

Why did you assume Kaioshin even gave him any boost when that's not what's mentioned? Pure Evil Boo is different from Pure Boo, Pure Evil Boo was weaker than Good Boo and during partition took most of his powers and after taking in Good Boo was able to take use. If fat boo is result of Kaioshin influence restraining kid boo then how come pure evil boo can even be a equal to kid boo? Vegeta even insinuates that if Super boo is reverted into pure evil boo, he won't be a match which both fat boo and Kid boo were. Kaioshin restricted Fat Boo's Power, making it less accessible, so while partition, Pure evil boo took most of his powers and that's why when he ate good boo, it allowed him to access good Boo's sealed off powers in super boo. So in essence a fraction of fraction, not the whole pie. Pure evil boo is manifestation of fat Boo's evil side like Piccolo to nameless Namekian.

Dragon Book states Pure Boo has the greatest of power, many of the Daizenshuu entries do the same thing.
Dragon Ball forever also states Goku fought a powered up boo from previous self.


Except he was told that he had 2 gods inside him and he knows gods can't power him up considering Kaioshin nature is hurting to boo.
Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”
Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P2.2-5, P3.1-2
Kuririn: “It-it’s huge…And it’s getting even bigger…”
Piccolo: “Is it really that big?”
Gohan: “On Earth it was about this big [he holds out his hands]”
Kuririn: “Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters…He shouldn’t be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet…Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets…”
Piccolo: “Freeza doesn’t seem to have noticed yet…So why doesn’t Goku attack with that ball right away?...”
Kuririn: “Goku’s definitely thinking that if he doesn’t gather more ki and make it even huger, it won’t be able to defeat Freeza…”

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P4.1
Goku: “This thing’s big weakness is the time it takes to gather ki…”
Goku also made a comment to Piccolo about him using up all of his Ki in Tenkaichi Budokai, right before he used his meteor Crush attack on him. Was Piccolo dead? Gohan and Kuririn used up all of their ki when they gave it to Piccolo and then attacked Freeza together to stall him. Piccolo even commented on that too.


Except other 2 are mental states and have nothing to do with them genki and ki in context mean the same and the series never tried to distinguish them.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Kaboom » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:00 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:44 am
Why is there any meaning left when even the Manga evidences and anything which goes against his arguments is irrelevant but his indirect "only logical explanations" are better?
there *is* evidence in the Kid Boo sub-arc but he refuses to acknowledge it. I've explained that evidence multiple times now and you keep saying it doesn't exist. I say everyone ignore Gohan. I point out that the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power isn't enough. I point out the Universal Genki Dama can be deflected by Kid Boo. I point out Goku saying without Satan and Good Boo everyone dies. I point out how Goku trains for 10 years and still wants his full power against Oob.
I mean anyone judging it while keeping in mind Toriyama's storytelling cliches and trope can see, that Super Boo can't be above Kid Boo.
I don't care about this ancient, tired old "debate" or whatever points you think you're making in it. I care about this dismissive "disagreeing with me can only mean you're being dishonest and making things up" attitude you're exhibiting, with all the "headcanon, headcanon, headcanon" remarks you keep making. I already closed the other thread for that reason, and I'm perfectly willing to close this one too if need be.

This is a free warning to knock that off and bump up the respect level for your fellow posters when having these discussions.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:28 pm

It's not so long in manga, it's one continuous reverse transformation. If he had stayed in buff form then your argument would have made sense but he was continuously going back, no one ever refuted that his ki came down or anything. Again, that was to show what South Kaioshin turned him into and when they talked about South Kaioshin, no one
It isn't one continuous transformation. Vegeta even indicates as such when he states that Buu is preparing to do another transformation.
Says South Kaioshin a flea made him strong. It makes no sense for one to weaken him and other to power up him. What even is that? None of the external guides outside Manga said that South Kaioshin powered him up. He was going back in reverse, it was different from other absorptions because here Boo was weakened with absorptions not powdered up. But we already know that Dabra stated that he can't use Kaioshin ki to revive Boo, which makes this clear why. Kaioshin nature is hurting to boo. There is nothing in him, the composition of Kid boo and buff boo is same, you can't even say Dai Kaioshin was taken out and South was left. You don't suddenly get stronger when your power source is vanished. You can't suddenly get stronger then get weaker in 2 pages, where did that power go? Again in manga it's fast, anime like always dragged it. It's reverse transformation but we do know that absorptions weakened him according to kibitoshin so that rising power was that blocked power.
Kibitoshin specifically refers to Dai Kaioushin as being gentle and pure, even in comparison to South Kaioushin, thus the reason he weakened Buu while South Kaioushin didn't is that his purity was greater than that of South Kaioushin's, making him an actual counter to Buu's strength. Dabra doesn't establish why, and given that it's readily indicated that only Dai Kaioushin weakened him, it can't be a matter of it being because the Kaioushin themselves are just incompatible.

As said, even though they weren't attached anymore, their influence was still within his body until he burned it off. Dai Kaioushin's went first, which is why he reverted to South Kaioushin Buu, then when South Kaioushin's burned off, only Pure Buu remained.

Context of Kibitoshin's comment states it was only Dai Kaioushin that weakened him, and thus the comment about the rising ki was in relation to Buu becoming South Kaioushin Buu (which is what was happening at the time that it was said). Why no mention of his ki continuing to increase once the next transformation began? It wasn't a continuous transformation, by Vegeta's words, so it should have been stated if it happened.
Please refrain from using that Evil Boo example, Goku saying he will be killed with Vegeta has no bearing on kid Boo's power. With kid boo nothing has been shown to even refute the comment Goku made about ki increasing. Now you are changing wordings, listen, he never said at full power he can kill boo because all that time he was fighting him at full power only. Even Daizenshuu referenced that and this Daizenshuu is based on manga not even anime. It says even a Full power ssj3 Goku can't beat boo. Charging ki close to full power means Goku surpassing himself like Piccolo did with Raditz :
His exact words were him gathering his ki to full power. Not gathering ki beyond his maximum in the way Piccolo did. Goku is stating what level he's trying to gather his ki to. And by Goku's own admission, he never attempted to just take Buu out with a full power blast, meaning that neither Kamehameha he fired at Buu was full power.
Later on after Gohan's ki too he thought it wasn't enough to overpower boo. Either way the statement about Boo's ki going up was never refuted either way so kid boo > super boo. No one mentioned anything close to power dropping. If Toriyama wanted to he could have made them mention it. If you're using your "only logical explanation" then i can also say Elder Kaioshin meant "Most Troublesome Boo" in terms of power. Stay consistent with your logic, you can't assume something then ignore other statement just because it's not explicit enough. Btw Goku also thought Genki-Dama can kill Vegeta in Saiyan arc and after half of its power was lost he still thought the remaining can kill Vegeta.
Gohan's genki wasn't enough, not his full ki. Remember, Genki Dama only draws off genki, not full ki, so what Gohan donated is only a portion of his total strength. Toriyama didn't need to explicitly mention it when he left so many implications, and you can't say that Rou Kaioushin meant strength in that regard because context doesn't support it.

Goku said he thought the Genki Dama might work against Vegeta, not that he knew it'd work. There's a difference. With Buu, Goku said a full power blast would work, indicating he was more sure of himself.
Vegeta's showing fear because no one can stop Boo again. There's no point in him saying that to only Vegeta he's talking about everyone. That's why he believes that without training one-on-one no one can beat Boo. Vegeta is already out of question, he's not even a match for Fat Boo there no reason to just talk about him. This whole arc it was all about him training kids, he won't just forget about it. He's obviously referring to everyone, otherwise Vegeta won't be scared, it's your vague assumption that it's because Gohan would magically get lost and Kid boo will blow earth up, even if that's the case they have Dragon Balls and other ways to bring Gohan back. His concern is because no one is there to beat Boo, Vegetto is the only one Goku mentioned. There's no point in telling you no matter what anyone says you will keep forming new "logical explanations".
He's showing fear because the Earth might be doomed the next time, and I already gave you a perfectly valid scenario involving that without him fighting anyone. Goku is clearly saying it to calm Vegeta down so as to convince him to not destroy Mr. Buu.
Except you are the only one with this interpretation. Funny thing is no one mentioned decrease in power when that's the case everytime so yea in our narrative it is but in DB manga there isn't. Otherwise Perfect Cell > Semi-Perfect Cell because Vegeta used the same comment as kid boo about shrinking and Android 16 mentioned Vegeta was still more powerful. Because character confidence >>> any evidence or feat. No?
See, that's not a valid counterargument, because we're later given evidence showing that Perfect Cell is that much stronger despite his physical appearance and that Cell is more powerful than Vegeta. In Pure Buu's case, none of that happens. Nothing is said or shown to indicate he's more powerful than Evil Buu.
He was shrunk and wasn't sure of getting his size back, he mentioned to Piccolo how ssj3 can be better utilized in afterlife than living world, he was most likely tired that's why he never goes ssj3 against a vastly weaker opponent even though he did go ssj3 against bootenks. He never goes to fight thinking he stands a chance, it's because of his desire and pride. Karin already told Goku that cell was stronger but he still goes and later on then trunks was trying to give Goku a senzu Vegeta explanation was that of warrior pride. Goku was a fodder to Freeza and couldn't even fight 50% Freeza on-par when Freeza started to fight earnestly yet he fought because of his desire. If you read saiyan arc battle it even has a narration too regarding Goku's Saiyan blood stirring and how he loves getting driven in corner and fighting strong guys.
Goku wasn't aware of any power decrease, he had already shown he was willing to use Super Saiyan 3 if the enemy pushed him to do it, and he's no weaker or tired inside Buu's body than he is on Kaioushin's planet a few minutes later. In Cell's case, Goku fought so as to show Gohan that he (Gohan) was just that much stronger than he was, and in Freeza's case, Goku was fighting evenly with him until Freeza revealed he was hiding the bulk of his power. Until that point, he had no clue how much stronger Freeza was in comparison to him, and thought he had a chance up to that point.
Because Gods Pure energy can't be used for a demon. Regardless you're relying on new information 2 decades later then i will also use anime statement of kid boo being strongest boo because whatever is in manga goes against your arguments. Are you kidding me? You're saying the strongest and bulkier Kaioshin won't do the thing most fitting for him? No that's bad interpretation. Kibito kept on telling Gohan that no God was able to pull it.
So, you're saying Herms is wrong then? Because that is his translation of the text. The manga simply says "numerous Kaioushin" had tried, which doesn't mean that all of them did.
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
That's his only line on the matter, that numerous Kaioushin tried. Numerous doesn't equal all, so that leaves plenty of room for South Kaioushin to have never bothered to try.

And no, there's no evidence saying that Kaioushin energy is incompatible with Buu. We're not told why their energy can't be used, and evidence supports that South Kaioushin strengthened Buu when he absorbed him, so it must mean something else.
:D :D :D that's not gonna work anymore dude. According to kibitoshin the result after 2 Kaioshins was him getting weaker than before then irrespective of whatever boost South Kaioshin gave him(none) , the power he lost was regained, thus, in every transformation there was a part of suppressed power which Dai Kaioshin was holding and both Kaioshins influence was in boo so that explains why his power was going up. You are just mixing everything up, old Kaioshin was never told that boo had 2 gods in him and just because kibitoshin doesn't tell him doesn't mean South Kaioshin powered him up. There no need to tell him when there was no need, it's only when he saw Super boo revert to kid boo that he finally realized it. He never lost South Kaioshin without Dai Kaioshin that's the funny thing.
Kibitoshin stated that only one of them weakened Buu, not both. The one that gave Buu a heart is the one that weakened him, and that was Dai Kaioushin. Since it was previously stated that all absorptions strengthen Buu and cause a form chance, and then we're told that Dai Kaioushin affected him differently, then South Kaioushin affected him normally.
For argument sake assume kid boo was 5 and South Kai made him 6 but Dai Kaioshin made him 4 which means he was overall weakened that should settle it He talks about Both the absorptions then says it reduced his Power Level, as in boo after absorbing both Kaioshins turning into fat boo and getting weaker than his original kid form. That means the Kaioshin influence consists of both Kaioshins, South and Dai and overall result was Minus. Still confused? Man, this argument is settled,
As said, all you're "proving" is why Fat Buu's strength was below Pure Buu's. In Evil Buu's case, he has all of Pure Buu's strength, as well as South Kaioushin and Dai Kaioushin's strength, with virtually none of Dai Kaioushin's influence affecting him. Using your numbers, if Pure Buu was a 5, South Kaioushin was a 6, and Dai Kaioushin a 4, then Evil Buu would be ~15, because he has all that strength of the absorptions within him, but essentially none of the weakness.
There's no point in staying under radar from Kaioshin when the people are already with Kaioshin and they are willing to take whatever energy is possible to revive boo that's why they went to Tenkaichi Budokai in the first place and never expected earthlings to have the power that ssj had so i see absolutely no reason to say "we can't use the energy from Kaioshin and kibito". Either the energy won't have any effect or it can weaken boo. We know this is true because later Kaioshin established that boo got weakened by Kaioshins.
Except Kaioushin only said one of them weakened Buu, not both, meaning that Kaioushin ki is not incompatible with Buu's, therefore the reason for not wanting their energy is something other than nature.
Your narrative makes no sense for one Kaioshin to weaken him and other to boost his power, only Dai Kaioshin weakening him because Pure heart even though Gohan never weakened him with pure heart. Try using Dabra statement with this and it makes sense that both Kaioshins weaken him.
Except that it's readily said in Kibitoshin's comment that it was the absorption that gave him a heart is the one that weakened him, and that he did not gain a heart until absorbing Dai Kaioushin. Therefore, South Kaioushin did not weaken him, but rather strengthened him (as it was established earlier). We're talking about a god with a pure good heart in comparison to a mortal with a pure good heart.
No he knew it that's why he instantly deduced if he was the most difficult boo and kibitoshin answered in power. Again, someone's nature can't make him more difficult than all the 5 varieties of boo he saw. He wasn't even fed anything about boo blowing planets or being almost impossible to defeat, just that he was evil and made controllable. That's not enough to deduce him as most difficult.
His nature can easily make him the most difficult, as I've explained time and again. He wasn't fed anything about Buu's power until after he asked (and even then, he was just told that one of the Kaioushin had weakened him), but was fed everything about Buu being an uncontrollable monster that was "evil itself" before asking. Context, again, is everything.
Oh boy, now even manga evidences are being ignored? Tell me what did Goku say when he first saw Freeza then? Even while doing kaio Ken times 20 Kamehameha he wanted Freeza's statement to turn out to be a lie which means Goku isn't some scouter and ki isn't definitive. It can fluctuate besides Goku calls Freeza "You're more of a runt than i imagined"
Goku states that he didn't think Freeza would look so young. Even if he had called Freeza a runt though, none of that is indicating that he was judging Freeza's ability to fight or his strength on what he saw, just that he expected Freeza to be older/bigger for what he had sensed. That's not remotely the same as what you're trying to say Goku did in relation to Pure Buu, because in the case with Freeza, he's going off what he sensed first, and is just commenting that Freeza's physical appearance surprised him given what he sensed, not that he was judging Freeza's strength based on Freeza's physical appearance.
Now stop twisting things around, if he's capable of using ssj3 near bootenks but not using ssj3 near boo inside his body that means something is wrong. He never agreed with Vegeta's reasoning but taking ki right upto their limits thing. Go read dragon ball Manga again, if Goku was agreeing with Vegeta due to plan fitting his ideals then Goku was agreeing with Vegeta judging boo off his size. You can't just change his character whenever you want. He has shown that he's not like Vegeta according to your own argument, he isn't dumb enough to ignore Gohan's help. "i will literally go against everything established because whatever i say is perfect and correct, Toriyama who?"
He used it against Gotenks Buu because he was under immediate threat of being attacked, so he went to his strongest form to defend himself. Evil Buu wasn't immediately threatening to attack them, thus Goku had no reason to transform to 3 (or either he or Vegeta to 2). I'm going by what is established, not against it. The manga is clear and straightforward with this, not requiring "So and so said this but is lying" or "We have to assume so and so here even though context disagrees".
Then Goku was also stronger than Freeza all along but just tired due to dende not healing him and he chose Genki Dama because he wanted power of other planets to beat boo. Yes that's what i was expecting from you changing the lines. Freeza actually got weaker in final form from 2rd form that's why Kuririn commented that he doesn't look much evil, Piccolo's concern then was about his nature not his power, he could have killed him if dende healed him but he wanted Goku to beat him but he wanted Goku to beat him because Goku wanted to fight Freeza to avenge races. Let's play headcanon and twisting narratives game.
See, I'm not going to say that those are how things happened because that goes against what is shown in the manga, just as I'm not going to say that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, because that's not what is shown or supported in the manga. You were told before not to spout the "headcanon" argument by a moderator a few times now. I'm going by what is shown in the manga and what most accurately and simply explains what is shown.
Yet you can't even show one proof of Super Boo having previous knowledge of kid boo to the point of him saying he will stop being himself and being born from evil side of fat boo (same clothing) not kid boo. Bootenks said strongest Majin in past, present and future yet he got stronger in boohan form and contradicts his own self.
Him not knowing that he'd later absorb Gohan and grow stronger doesn't refute his earlier assessments, and you've not shown any evidence that Buu doesn't have previous knowledge. In fact, him saying that he knows he'll not be himself anymore affirms that he knows about his Pure Buu state, otherwise he wouldn't know that he'd "stop being himself" if he were to revert to that form.
Again contradicting yourself. If result of absorbing 2 Kaioshins was power going down then it doesn't take a genius to figure out what would happen if opposite happened, that is goodness of Kaioshin powering him up. There was always a fraction of power getting blocked in Boo's body due to Kaioshin influence.
Only one Kaioushin weakened Buu. This is stated. The amount of power being blocked by Dai Kaioushin was very pronounced in Fat Buu, but nearly non-existent in Evil Buu, meaning that Evil Buu was getting all the power of Pure Buu and the two Kaioushin with next to no weakness at all.
Boo without any Kaioshin influences on his soul is at his most powerful. This is stated in the mangas. Both in the original japanese manga and anime. Super Boo had Kaioshin influences, as soon as they were removed, his chi is stated to become stronger and the result of this is Kid Boo. Literally, Super Boo minus all Kaioshin results in Kid Boo.
No, the manga states that just one Kaioushin influenced Buu's soul, the Dai Kaioushin. Once that influence was removed, his power increased, but once the influence of the South Kaioushin was gone (which was strengthening Buu) he lost power.
Why did you assume Kaioshin even gave him any boost when that's not what's mentioned? Pure Evil Boo is different from Pure Boo, Pure Evil Boo was weaker than Good Boo and during partition took most of his powers and after taking in Good Boo was able to take use. If fat boo is result of Kaioshin influence restraining kid boo then how come pure evil boo can even be a equal to kid boo? Vegeta even insinuates that if Super boo is reverted into pure evil boo, he won't be a match which both fat boo and Kid boo were. Kaioshin restricted Fat Boo's Power, making it less accessible, so while partition, Pure evil boo took most of his powers and that's why when he ate good boo, it allowed him to access good Boo's sealed off powers in super boo. So in essence a fraction of fraction, not the whole pie. Pure evil boo is manifestation of fat Boo's evil side like Piccolo to nameless Namekian.
It is stated by Rou Kaioushin that all absorptions strengthen Buu and cause a form change, and Kibitoshin, at the time, does not refute this. Then, when explaining Buu's origins, Kibitoshin establishes that Dai Kaioushin's absorption (and only his) resulted in Buu gaining a heart and weakening him. This means that South Kaioushin's absorption affected him normally, thus it strengthened him.
Dragon Book states Pure Boo has the greatest of power, many of the Daizenshuu entries do the same thing.
Both of those are the anime entries, which skewed and inserted statements not present in the manga.
Except he was told that he had 2 gods inside him and he knows gods can't power him up considering Kaioshin nature is hurting to boo.
There's no evidence that Kaioushin nature hurts Buu, given that South Kaioushin powered Buu up.
Except other 2 are mental states and have nothing to do with them genki and ki in context mean the same and the series never tried to distinguish them.
There are more than three. It's been said time and again that there are more than three. And, as said before, why would Toriyama refer to life energy as "seiki" if that's what genki was supposed to be in his context of ki. Likewise, no, genki, outside of being spoken of in reference to what is donated to the genki dama, is only mentioned in regards to the health and vigor of an individual, not their regular ki in general. Thus, even in the manga, he's distinguishing them.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:58 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Gohan's genki wasn't enough, not his full ki. Remember, Genki Dama only draws off genki, not full ki, so what Gohan donated is only a portion of his total strength.
I find particularly odd that Vegeta is willing to exhaust all the Earthlings to create that super-powerful ball, but for some reason Gohan donates merely a “portion” of his full power.

Anyway, can you two resume the points you are making or put spoiler tags on your posts? This thread is nearly unreadable.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:58 am
Darkprince410 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Gohan's genki wasn't enough, not his full ki. Remember, Genki Dama only draws off genki, not full ki, so what Gohan donated is only a portion of his total strength.
I find particularly odd that Vegeta is willing to exhaust all the Earthlings to create that super-powerful ball, but for some reason Gohan donates merely a “portion” of his full power.

Anyway, can you two resume the points you are making or put spoiler tags on your posts? This thread is nearly unreadable.
What I mean by that is that everyone is only donating their genki, so Gohan has all the strength from the other elements of his ki still present and not being donated.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:46 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:28 pm

There is a conversation that takes place between Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin , when Super Boo is turning into Kid Boo. Unless you forgot about that conversation and are unable to get back to it, it says that Boo lost power from the absorption. This means that all previous forms of Boo were missing a piece of their power, no one can say how much...
But it does mean that Super Boo is also missing a portion of his original power. Bootenks and Boohan might have been stronger, since they have ssj3 tier saiyans in them, but Super Boo in his base form is weaker than Kid Boo, because Kibitoshin said so
There is nothing to speculate about. "Lower his power through absorption is back to its original self" was the statement. It means that all Boos, in base form are weaker. There is no way to reinterpret what is said plainly, in regard to this topic. A base-form Super Boo is weaker than a base form Kid Boo.
Absorbing the 2 Kaioshins weakened him. That's why Fat Boo is weaker than Kid Boo, so even if you think Buff Boo made him stronger, Dai Kaioshin brought him down even more than his original self.
Here i am using your logic for argument sake :
If Kid Boo was 5, Buff Boo (southern Kaioshin absorbed Boo) made him 6 and Fat Boo (result of Dai Kaioshin + South Kaioshin) is 4 then the overall result of both Kaioshins is -1. Which means the power was lowered and their influence was in Good Boo and the moment he was removed, the Ki went up which proves my point further that no matter how you look at it Kid Boo > Super Boo since he doesn't have the influence of any Kaioshin in him to bring his power down.

Absorbing the Z fighters strengthened him. If absorbing The Kaioshin strengthened him then Wouldn't Fat Boo be stronger than the grey buu? Think about it.

When Fat Boo was removed, he had the influence of both Kaioshins in him. The south Kaioshin and the Dai Kaioshin.

Okay so everyone argues that when goku and vegeta say his power was raising during his transformation, that it was Buff Boo's power that went higher, Not kid boo's correct?

There is just 1 problem with this logic and a huge plot hole that doesn't even make any sense.

So People argue that Super Boo = Kid Boo(All his power unrestricted) + South Kaioshin which is why Super Boo > Kid Boo because his original + more should be greater than original alone. Makes sense.

HOWEVER the big problem is as shown in the anime and manga, When the people were ripped out of Super Boo , he lost his power instantly. There was no "skyrocket" effect when gohan, goten, piccolo or trunks was removed.

That means whenever someone is removed, there power goes with them instantly and Boo instantly loses it. That has been proven to us already.

Okay so far so good???

So remember fat Boo ? Inside Super Boo ? He had South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin's influence and this is where people say he was able to access south Kaioshin power and all of his own. But heres the huge problem, when Fat Boo was ripped off, at that very second, Both the Kaioshin's powers left instantly.

That means there power was now gone and are no longer in Boo, Which means pure boo's power is left alone in the body.

Okay so moments later where all the Kaioshin's influence is gone, Boo's power begins to skyrocket. How could the south Kaioshin influence boo's power to buff boo if the Kaioshin was just removed? That doesn't even make any sense if you think about it. The show never made some nonsense burning ki theory and Kibitoshin made it even clear that kid boo lowered his power through absorptions.

Gohan who was WAY stronger than the south Kaioshin who was removed. Super Boo didn't skyrocket in power and then power down after wards. He just got way weaker(and stated in the manga and anime). The whole arc they keep is updated with Boo's Power fluctuations by commenting on his Ki going up or down, in DBZ every minor fluctuation is notified via character commenting on Ki. Yet after Goku's comment on Boo's ki increasing neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm they say anything about ki going down.

Which means the remaining power alone had to be kid boo's power. It could not have been the kais.

Of course when I point this out, you will just dodge the question and go to other evidence but yea this pretty much destroys any point after reference

Nowhere in the Series they take Time by saying they "distract him while i gather ki" to do anything related to power Other than Gathering Ki like Piccolo did vs Raditz or Cell did in his final Kamehameha which is what Goku did here Its Happened Twice before Its Not random.
Goku being able to kill Boo if he takes 1 minute is the same thing as saying Piccolo is charging for Makankosappo. The more said attack is charged, the stronger it is. Goku wants to charge his Ki as much as possible and then hit Kid Boo with it, but that's not Goku's full power, that's beyond it given it's been stated multiple times that Goku had already used his full power. Daizenshuu which came in 1996 too mentioned that even a Full Power Goku can't beat Kid Boo.

Your theory is badly thought out, not mentioned in story. If it was about influence then he should have started to revert from Fat Boo.

Please don't twist statements, he told about how Boo absorbed 2 gods, never mentioned about any power boost from South Kaioshin then then ended up about how he lowered power through absorption. No where does it single out Dai Kaioshin as the only one weakening him, only that he made him controllable but in difficulty Buff Boo = kid boo then because Kibitoshin never commented on Buff Boo being most powerful or difficult but he does comment on kid boo despite both Kaioshins seeing both Buff and Kid boo there.

Goku first asks Vegeta whether he meant to being Gohan and Gotenks to fight Boo. Notice Goku references BOTH Gohan and Gotenks, to fight WITH GOKU, VEGETA AND FAT BUU and not just alone. It sounds definitely weird for Goku to suggest all the group to fight if one of them is enough to beat Kid Buu taking into account he wanted Gohan to beat Piccolo-Boo on his own. Vegeta yet STILL refuses the offer, and thinks of another move to beat Kid Boo which is the Genki-Dama , which kind of contradicts any reason behind having Gohan above Kid Boo since the Implification makes it sound as if Kid Boo could be beaten ONLY IF Gohan and EVERYONE ELSE powerful such as Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta and Fat Boo fight:
Later on, Vegeta starts his speech and then says that he needs AS MUCH Ki AS POSSIBLE to defeat Boo. This is after Vegeta refused to bring Gohan and Gotenks and then starts saying that they need as much Ki as possible from everybody. Vegeta does know about Gohan and Gotenks, and note that Vegeta SPECIFICALLY says that everyone's UTMOST Ki is needed to beat Kid Buu, and NOTHING ELSE:

Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”



Goku himself reaffirms Vegeta's statement and states again that he needs ALL OF EVERYONE'S Ki. The key word here is "All". Why would everyone's "All" be needed if one is more than enough?

Almost everyone starts to refuse giving their energy, and so Goku gets flustered and states that Goku needs their help. Why is he in dire need of their help if he could simply bring Gohan or Gotenks to stop kid Boo if no one is listening? Like Goku will just stand their persuading them while Kid Boo is making this case more worse? Goku actually screams "we need your help!" and is worried that they aren't giving their energy despite Gohan contributing his. Gohan and everybody else were ordered to give their energy AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, so it's denial to say Gohan didn't give his energy in his Ultimate Form. This was a direct order and the safest thing to suggest is that Gohan agreed and gave off as much energy as possible

Goku later FURTHER affirms this by saying "why don't they understand". Understand what? Goku was talking about how he is in need of their energy to their fullest, and that he needs it to beat Kid Boo. So they don't understand that Goku needs them to KILL KID BOO OTHERWISE THEY'D FAIL:

Vegeta then starts to tell everyone that if they didn't contribute their energy, Kid Boo will kill them. How would he kill them if Gohan and Gotenks are their to save the day? Kind of contradictory to suggest that Kid Buu is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks when it's quite clearly supported a shit ton that Kid Boo
Can only be defeated by using all of their energy AS MUCH AS possible


So whatever energy they father from everyone to their fullest will be above any other option there is, and without that, Kid Boo would beat everybody and no one could stop him, including Gohan and Gotenks as shown now. Vegeta claims that the world will end because Kid Boo saw Vegeta and the Genki-Dama. Why is it the end if there's someone out there who could get rid of Kid Boo? Lmao this is more than obvious at this point


Because barely anyone is giving their energy, Goku says "don't you fools care about earth?". What's wrong with earth? I mean there is Gohan and Gotenks! They are INFERIOR to kid boo. If no one contributes their energy, Kid Boo will brick on earth and no one will be able to stop Boo.

According to you characters have became so brainless that instead of asking Gohan to finish the villain like Cell Games, everyone is using an attack which never worked in the past and forces Vegeta and Goku to beg to earthlings. Vegeta is willing to die with Kid boo together via Genki Dama but not willing to call Gohan? Goku is willing to cry and beg for help but not wanting to call Gohan? Elder Kaioshin is willing to recommend His 2 cents for Genki-Dama but not even trying to bring up Gohan when Genki Dama almost fails and even says that they all are doomed? Kibitoshin was happy with Super Boo but terrified with kid boo because ki went down?

Genki-Dama takes your ki and the show interchangeably uses Genki, Ki and power for it which are synonymous for Ki. Yea i agree according to western fandom Genki draws ki so with that theory you can satisfy yourself.

"i am better than writer, my words are absolute, when toriyama made old Kaioshin say "most difficult boo" then he never meant with power otherwise he should have said so but when Vegeta and Goku comment on his size and not ki I will assume it's Ki even though it's nowhere mentioned in the Manga that his ki went down but my words are absolute, i will decide what toriyama meant


You lost that argument, Goku never even says might work or may be but says it will be enough to take care of Vegeta. With Boo he doesn't even show much confidence to begin with and instantly regrets refusing Potara meaning everything he did earlier was because of according to his own admission, overconfidence. Even after battle he admitted he's inferior to Kid Boo and needs to train more to catch up and that's why he waited a decade for Oob to fight him at Full power.

No, he's showing fear because earth will be doomed since no one is enough to beat boo. Your scenario isn't what he's talking about, because there was no one who could have taken care of boo alone, they had to resort to Genki Dama. Unlike previous arc like cell where Gohan was enough, here he wasn't. That's why Toriyama even draws him on the panel, you think he would literally draw a character who can bring easy victory on page yet won't make him participate? That makes no sense.

You think the decision of vegeta to pick genki Dama over Gohan who you assume to be above kid boo was just to add suspense to the final fight? If that was the case, Toriyama would have found a way to not make it possible to bring back Gohan and Gotenks. Because, out of universe, it makes the final battle risky only in an anticlimatic way. As if, in another story, the main character could kill the main villain with a gun but he willingly chooses to drop his weapon, for no reason. That kills the drama and there is no tension. I watched a movie like this a few years ago. I didn't get involved in the story anymore when I was like "Ok, this character is just fucking idiot".
In this situation, they're about to lose and end of their rope, and they don't have any good reason to replace an easy solution with a worse one. "we want to force earthlings to beat boo even if we get killed in process but we are too dumb suddenly to not bring up Gohan".
It would be as ridiculous as if Goku had said, when Bootenks reverted back to Boocolo,
"Gohan could beat you now but Kibitoshin must fight you... because he's responsible after all...!"

it doesn't create any tension at all, it just takes you out of the story. First mentions Gohan and Gotenks name, then how his ki made the Genki-Dama huge, then how no one but their friends are giving ki. Then he drew him in the Manga and kept reminding the audience, you think any author is this dumb to show to the audience the easy victory and the main characters being idiots and not calling the guy who can beat Boo and both are on the verge of exhaustion and Vegeta close to dying? Nah, that's horrible assumption. Nowhere in the show they ever ignored an easy victory, it's like Goku wanting Future Trunks and Vegeta to fight with Perfect Cell in Cell Games instead of his son because they are responsible for him. This creates no tension and is bad writing at its best.

We are also later shown that Kid Boo's first blast was somehow deflected by Vegeta but his second blast even before completion scared Goku who has ssj3 in his pocket, yet for the first time he was running away. He has not once ran away from an Earth blowing blast, look at beam struggle of Saiyan arc. He ran away from kid boo because the power was way too much, kid boo was holding back his first blast so Vegeta countered that's why second one was packed with even more power. This was done to show formidable Boo was. You're on purpose ignoring everything by either rendering it ass irrelevant or adding your own twisted logics to make it convenient to you because you know you lost the argument. As kibitoshin already told by absorbing 2 Kaioshins he was weakened, Vegeta took that good influence out from Boo's body, anyone not biased can tell kid boo > super boo.

There is absolutely no reason for him to not go ssj3 when his enemy is standing right in front of him. He told Piccolo that Ssj3 can only be utilized in afterlife where there's no time and in living world it exhausts himself. So that pretty much says why he was so unwilling to use ssj3 on earth. With boo it's no different, you're forgetting that Goku was also saying that statement about them getting done in so that Vegeta may accept his Metamoran fusion but he later finds out Vegeta knows it. Anyway, the point is Kid boo isn't weaker, he says he can't fight Super boo yet he was forced to fight him when he emerged similar to how Goku admitted he can't counter kid Boo's blast then he goes on fighting him without potara only to regret refusing potara and admitting his overconfidence.

Goku was not shown to have any chance, Freeza multiple times commented on how he will kill Goku and Goku has no chance to which Goku replied with "maybes". The fact is, with Vegeta, Perfect Cell and Freeza, Goku still went to fight them alone. All 3 were above Goku yet Goku wanted to challenge them on his own, even Piccolo in Tenkaichi Budokai, he refused help. That's part of Goku character to fight one-on-one, Toriyama even confirmed that he wanted to fight kid boo one-on-one due to desire to test his powers with a mighty foe than confidence. He even remembered Goku's line in his battle with kid boo.

By numerous he's referring to how it was beyond Kaioshin too. Again it's about context, he means that no Kaioshin ever managed to pull it. Otherwise it makes no sense for their strongest Kaioshin to not have pulled the sword especially when it could've came handy. You sure love making your stories.

Every statement according to you leaves room if it debunks your arguments.

No evidences say anything with South Kaioshin powering Boo up, it's your own personal theory. You can interpret it that way but when telling the backstory kibitoshin never mentioned anything about South Kaioshin powering boo up, that's it. Dabra statement comes handy here on why he was avoiding gods, because they effect boo negatively. They either don't have an effect or weaken boo which is exactly what happened to kid boo after taking in 2 Kaioshins.

Omg, still going on with that awful theory? Kibitoshin never singled out Any of the Kaioshin. You can't just grasp at straws for any statement just so it can fit your argument. The result of taking in 2 Kaioshins was power coming down so if it's taken out the power will come back to kid boo. South Kaioshin absorbed boo didn't even turn properly into South Kaioshin, he neither grows his clothes or nose, only thing he did was bulk up that's it. Only Z fighters power up Boo not Kaioshins, stop adding unnecessary theories, kibitoshin never mentioned South Kaioshin powering up him when that was the best chance. Which means he did nothing related to power up, both kaio brought his power down and he got that power back in kid boo form after Vegeta removed him from inside. Is that so hard to grasp?


What? :D :D what is this ridiculous maths? Evil Boo can't have Pure Boo's Power what are you talking about? They are different beings, Pure Evil Boo isn't even stronger than Unsplit Fat Boo let alone vastly stronger Kid boo. Way to go, that's what we called desperation. I have never seen such awful reasoning to the point you are twisting plot points.

Also you just literally added up numbers and changed things your way.... I am beginning to see why it was a mistake getting in a debate with you,

Pure Boo = 5
Buff Boo (assuming he's above kid boo) = 6
Fat Boo (without splitting) = 4
Pure Boo - Fat Boo = 5 - 4= 1, he lost 1 power

Which means overall result of absorption of both Kaioshins was power loss not gain, no matter how much South Kaioshin according to you powered him up (none imo) was brought down by Dai Kaioshin to the point he was weakened than his original kid form, but with Fat boo he had both Kaioshins in him, so overall result is him getting weak. When they were taken out, him getting stronger is due to that.

Kaioshin never said only one weakened him. He says that boo weakened himself through absorption which means he's referring to overall process of absorption. "i wont accept direct evidences even though things connect and flow this way but I would rather leave them vague conveniently but not make sense".

Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s] …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
It's clearly referring to the overall process of absorption rather than one absorption. Yea according to your baseless argument he powered him up, yet i proved my point with that.

Nature can't be enough to call boo most difficult opponent considering we still never saw him in action or blowing planets. He wasn't fed but he deduced it because Kaioshins were way too weak to even power up Boo. Again back with your "he was told only one weakened him" :crazy: . Being Evil itself isn't enough to call him Most Difficult opponent, Elder Kaioshin noticed increasing ki that's why he had his doubts.

That's viz bullshit, in Steve Simmons subtitles and original japanese, he commented on his height. It proves that even Goku can make comments on his opponent's size. He never mentioned any ki decease for Boo too so any speculation is meaningless.

Except Evil Boo was approaching him and was gonna fight him. Both Goku and Vegeta were definitely weakened due to size and were worn out due to Vegetto.

Super Boo explicitly says he will stop being himself which is clearly a proof that he's not supposed to know him. Kid Boo also never knew super boo the same way, Super Boo is born from fat boo and with him at base he's that's why calling him strongest. Him saying that he will stop being himself is not him showing his memory of boo lol, he's talking about losing his consciousness or personality. Now if he said that he will turn small and someone stronger will come that means he knows kid boo but he's just talking about losing consciousness because both Kaioshin influence play a part in Super Boo's body.

Evil Boo was from same pieces of Fat boo but due to soul being Pure Rage and more suitable body he was better ar utilizing Boo's Power. It lies with Shouki(true Character) as he Became More Evil His True Character He became Stronger and thus Pure Evil was Stronger. Also, Boo's entire being is Kid Boo. According to Akira Toriyama, the Key to winning battle is someone's Shouki (True character). Kid Boo is the true character of his being so it's natural he's the strongest. He's unrestrained and as the name says pure representation of Boo the creature. Fat Boo was result of Kaioshin restraining Boo, that's why Good Boo wasn't able to utilize the powers but when evil boo seperated he took most of his powers and after eating him he was able to utilize the sealed off power. Only fraction of fraction not the whole pie, now with Kid boo, the goodness of Kaioshin gone, he was at his strongest with no restrictions. Evil Boo getting Kaioshin powers for no reason is bad reasoning on your part.

Wait what? Kid boo after taking in both Kaioshins lost power so if they are removed he will instead grow powerful. It makes no sense for Boo to have get Dai Kaioshin power then lose his power what even is this? No matter how much power he would have lost with removal of South Kaioshin, he's still above super boo.

Yes and South Kaioshin hardly formed a change too. He just made him buffed up without clothing change ur growing a nose, just buffed up kid boo. You rely on far fetched theories, at the time kibitoshin had no reason to refute Elder Kaioshin, he never mentioned anything about South Kaioshin making him stronger too and by default it makes no sense for one to make him strong and other weak.

Dragon Book also uses anime lines which was used from Manga that he lowered power through absorption.

South Kaioshin powered him up according to him.

Manga never distinguished between Genki and ki so it's same.

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:58 am
Darkprince410 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Gohan's genki wasn't enough, not his full ki. Remember, Genki Dama only draws off genki, not full ki, so what Gohan donated is only a portion of his total strength.
I find particularly odd that Vegeta is willing to exhaust all the Earthlings to create that super-powerful ball, but for some reason Gohan donates merely a “portion” of his full power.

Anyway, can you two resume the points you are making or put spoiler tags on your posts? This thread is nearly unreadable.
It's funny how he's now ignoring manga evidences. The series had shown characters say Genki Dama takes ki,
Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”
Chapter: 212 (DBZ 18), P5.1-2
Context: explaining the technique after Goku blows up a large brick with a Genki-Dama made from the energy of Kaio's planet
Kaio: “The Genki-Dama is a technique that takes just a little bit of the various energies held by grass or trees, humans or animals, or even in objects and the atmosphere, gathers it all together and then fires it. Even the Genki-Dama of such a small planet as this one had that much destructive power. The Earth where you’ll be fighting is so large you can’t even compare it to here. And if you’re able to make the sun, with its gigantic energy, into your ally…It will be a Genki-Dama with outrageous power. If you mess up, you could destroy the planet which you’re supposed to protect.”
Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P2.2-5, P3.1-2
Kuririn: “It-it’s huge…And it’s getting even bigger…”
Piccolo: “Is it really that big?”
Gohan: “On Earth it was about this big [he holds out his hands]”
Kuririn: “Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters…He shouldn’t be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet…Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets…”
Piccolo: “Freeza doesn’t seem to have noticed yet…So why doesn’t Goku attack with that ball right away?...”
Kuririn: “Goku’s definitely thinking that if he doesn’t gather more ki and make it even huger, it won’t be able to defeat Freeza…”

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P4.1
Goku: “This thing’s big weakness is the time it takes to gather ki…”
Then Vegeta talks about giving all the ki and later we see Goku comment on ki too , Toriyama wrote Ki yet he thinks Gohan's giving only his genki :
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:50 am

No, that's not how that works. Kibitoshin does not state, at any point, that Evil Buu is weaker than Pure Buu, just that the single absorption that weakened Buu is no longer in play and that his power that was suppressed by that is no longer there. South Kaioushin drastically increased Buu's power, then Dai Kaioushin limited that power due to his influence, resulting in Fat Buu being weaker than Pure Buu. Evil Buu then has the same overall power from South and Dai Kaioushin, with virtually none of the limiting effects of Dai Kaioushin in place, being added onto Pure Evil Buu's strength (which, as shown by an earlier formula, would have been equal to Pure Buu's power).
The two different transformations (from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu, and then South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu), taking a considerable length of time in comparison to the other transformations, says otherwise. For Buu to have transformed into South Kaioushin Buu in the first place, rather than instantly transforming into Pure Buu, means that there was some element of South Kaioushin still lingering in his body even though he himself was no longer connected. It was two distinct transformations (Vegeta states as such), and the idea of Buu's body needing to burn off the remaining influence lingering after the disconnect explains it perfectly.

Think of it like a gas pump. Even with the pump turned off (analogous to the pod being removed), there is still going to be some fuel lingering within the hose until it is removed through some other means. That's the same as with what happened with Buu and the two Kaioushin. The source was cut off, but there was still some fuel in the line.
Because there wasn't an influence weakening Buu that was also in place when Gohan or the other members of the Z Senshi were removed. They were all just powering him up. With the removal of Mr. Buu, there was one source powering him up and one source weakening him, and when the remaining effects of the source weakening him disappeared (resulting in the reversion into South Kaioushin Buu), his power increased. Then, when that other source's effects disappeared, he got weaker. Likewise, as said repeatedly, it doesn't need to be expressly stated when it is repeatedly implied, and it was implied multiple times.
Except that, unlike in those other cases, Goku expressly and clearly states gathering his ki to his full power. Not beyond it. To it. Meaning that he is speaking of his full power as Super Saiyan 3.
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
Likewise, Goku stated that he had yet to try to kill Buu by using a full power blast.
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.
Yes, he went at Buu with his full power, but neither of his two Kamehameha used were full power.
I'm not twisting statements. It is expressly stated that Buu was weakened by the absorption that gave him a heart, and it was the absorption of Dai Kaioushin that gave him that heart. He did not gain a heart when absorbing South Kaioushin (stated to still be evil itself until absorbing Dai). Since Dai Kaioushin is the only one that weakened him, and it's otherwise stated that absorptions made him stronger, then South Kaioushin made him stronger.
For starters, Goku's comment uses a non-exhaustive "and" for when referring to Gohan and Gotenks, meaning that while he used those names, he wasn't meaning solely just them (Toriyama used the same non-exhaustive "and" when it came to the Cell Games in speaking of Vegeta and Trunks holding their own against the Cell Jrs to indicate that it wasn't just them that necessarily were). Therefore, him saying Gohan and Gotenks doesn't necessarily mean he was thinking Vegeta wanted to specifically revive them to, but rather just revive in general and used those as reference. Likewise, Goku did not say that he, Vegeta, or Buu would be fighting as well, just that the wish was to revive Gohan ("and") Gotenks so he/they could fight.

And Vegeta said that, but in regards to genki, since the Genki Dama only draws from genki. All references to ki in relation to the Genki Dama are just genki. There is no reason to specifically call it genki multiple times throughout the franchise if it was just ki. Vegeta's reason for the Genki Dama was given, and no other "reason" can be assumed or interpreted at all, because only one reason is ever stated or otherwise indicated. He didn't turn down Gohan or Gotenks coming because he didn't think they could handle it, but because he wanted the people of the Earth to participate in their own protection for once.
Gohan gave all he could of the only element of ki that the Genki Dama takes. He had levels of other elements of his ki still within him, but because the Genki Dama takes just one, he couldn't donate them.
Readily explained many times over. Buu can just teleport to anywhere on the planet if he wanted and blow it up without a care. He doesn't need to find a ki source, and given his uncontrollable nature (which made him so troublesome to begin with) leaves him willing to blow up a planet without provocation, he can destroy the planet and Gohan and Gotenks wouldn't even get a chance to fight.

Regardless of what you believe, there is one reason only for Vegeta wanting the Genki Dama, and Goku's actions and behavior later is just him following the plan.
I'm not saying I'm better than Toriyama. I'm not the one that's making leaps of logic that require characters going completely out of character, that require ignoring of clearly stated facts, of ignoring what he himself states, etc. Rou Kaioushin asked Kibitoshin if Pure Buu was the most troublesome based on the origin story he was told, and absolutely nothing about that origin story, up to that point, involved strength. As such, the only context he had to ask that would be about his uncontrollable nature. Only Vegeta's comment can be taken as being about size. Goku would be going completely out of character to think he and Vegeta stood a chance based on Buu's physical appearance if he could sense Buu being stronger than before. Characters use the term genki in regards to the Genki Dama, and given that Toriyama himself established that there is a difference, in his universe, between the two (genki and ki), then they aren't interchangeable in regards to "references of genki meaning ki".

This is all from Toriyama, not something I just invented.
Goku's comment to Kuririn regarding the Genki Dama against Vegeta, where he says he "thinks" there's enough, meaning he didn't know for certain it would.
About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”
Goku's dialogue with Vegeta regarding his full-power blast (and it'd be a blast of his maximum strength, not one exceeding his power) against Pure Buu.
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
No indication of uncertainty as to whether or not he could do it, just that he'll need a minute to gather his ki if he wants to do so.

Goku needed someone to step in to stall out Buu while he re-gathered his strength, which wasn't something he wanted to have happen if he needed to fight Buu again.
It doesn't matter whether you think it's idiotic or not. The fact remains that it is the only reason given. Toriyama likes to keep things simple and straightforward, so he's not going to have a character say something if the truth was completely different and not reveal that later. The only reason given is because Vegeta wanted the Earth to help defend itself for once. So nix the idea that he wanted to do it because he felt Gohan or Gotenks wouldn't be enough to do so on their own.
It's not an assumption when it's what is stated. Vegeta states not once, but twice that he wanted the Genki Dama so that Earth could defend itself for once. He had every situation to say that he thought Gohan or Gotenks wasn't strong enough to beat Buu, but he doesn't, so saying that he chose the Genki Dama over them for any reason other than the reason he gives is baseless. If you think it's bad writing, then just accept that Toriyama is a bad writer, because that's what happened.
For starters, a blast can be weaker than the opponent taking the hit and still have too much force to be deflected or repelled. Freeza was stronger than the Genki Dama, yet couldn't stop it, and Cell's second form was stronger than Tenshinhan's Shin Ki Kou Hou, but couldn't defend himself against them. And Kibitoshin said that only one Kaioushin being absorbed weakened Buu, not two. Only the one that gave him a heart, which South Kaioushin didn't do.
There's plenty of reason for him not to. Goku and Vegeta were trying to avoid a head on fight, which is why Goku even tried forcing Buu to back down by threatening to blast a hole in him that would blow open a big hole in him. It wasn't until right after failing that attempt that Goku realized they would need to fight, which is when Vegeta went for Mr. Buu's pod. So, up to that point, Goku was hoping they wouldn't have to fight him, thus there'd be no reason for him to transform to Super Saiyan 3 and burn energy unnecessarily.

And no, there's no indication that Goku was saying that to goad Vegeta into fusing with him again. He was scared at the prospect of fighting Evil Buu, and brought up fusing only to indicate it was their only means of winning. With Pure Buu, yes, he did mention the Potara earrings making for an instant victory, but he still indicated he could have defeated him on his own, which isn't something he ever indicated with Evil Buu.
With Vegeta and Freeza, Goku didn't realize they were stronger than he was until after already engaging them, at which point it was too late for him to even try to escape. He didn't go into either of those fights thinking he stood no chance. With Cell, as said, he wanted to show Gohan how much stronger Gohan was in comparison to him.
I'm not making up a story. I'm going by what is stated. It only says that numerous tried. If every Kaioushin tried, then why not say that? Numerous just means "a lot", which is far different from all. Since it isn't said that all the Kaioushin tried, we can't say with any degree of certainty that South Kaioushin did try, therefore you cannot say with any certainty that South Kaioushin is weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan.
We are told by Rou Kaioushin that Buu absorbing someone results in a form change and him growing stronger.
Elder Kaioshin: “…Don’t you think it’s a little strange? …Each time Majin Boo has absorbed a warrior up to now, his power has gone up and his appearance has changed…But this time…”
Kibitoshin, at the time, does not refute this or indicate this is incorrect, so, up to this point, absorbing someone = becoming stronger.

Then, Kibitoshin, in his origin story, specifically states that the absorption that gave Buu his heart weakened him, and it is Dai Kaioushin that gave him his heart (his nature was unchanged when absorbing South Kaioushin).
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
In that, Kibitoshin is stating there was one exception to the previously established fact, and that was Dai Kaioushin. Therefore, since South Kaioushin did not affect him differently than the norm (otherwise, why was it not mentioned?), it affected him in the normal way, which was strengthening him.
Kibitoshin does specifically single out a Kaioushin, as he states that it is the absorption that gave Buu a heart that weakened him, and in turn, it is Dai Kaioushin that gave him that heart.

See my above quote from Rou Kaioushin. It doesn't require the formation of clothes or a nose to count, just a change in appearance, which is what happened with South Kaioushin Buu (he became large and bulky).

I'm not adding unnecessary theories. I'm stating what is shown.
You still never countered the established formula showing that Pure Evil Buu and Pure Buu are the same strength.

Pure Evil Buu + Mr. Buu = Evil Buu - Mr. Buu = Pure Buu (with no change in Mr. Buu's power to offset the scale).

It is established that Fat Buu's power increases considerably when he grows enraged, and he was at extreme levels of anger (far higher than he had against Goku) when he expelled the Pure Evil Buu. Since that is when the split in power took place, when Fat Buu was at his strongest, he could have been weak enough to lose against Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but then still produce someone equal in power to Goku when splitting his strength.

For example

Fat Buu (against Goku) 5
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 6
Fat Buu (peak enrage): 9
Pure Evil Buu: 6
Mr. Buu: 3

And before your counter of "twisting plot points", this is based explicitly on information given to us. We know for a fact Fat Buu's strength increases when enraged. The formula given earlier leaves no room for Pure Evil Buu to be anything apart from equal in power to Pure Buu given the most straightforward and simple sequence of events displayed (Pure Evil Buu absorbs Mr. Buu and becomes Evil Buu. Evil Buu loses Mr. Buu and becomes Pure Buu) I'm putting one thing into the equation and taking out the exact same thing.
No, you did not. Kibitoshin states the absorption that gave Buu his heart is the absorption that lowered his power. Only one absorption did that. Therefore, he isn't talking about the process of absorption overall, but just a single absorption.
For starters, can we stop with the pointless emotes? Sinking to actions that can be construed as attempts to demean are unnecessary. I'm trying to debate maturely with you, so I ask you respond in kind.

Considering there's no evidence as to the strength of South Kaioushin (after all, we don't know if he tried to remove the Z Sword, and Pure Buu clearly thought he was legitimate enough of a threat to absorb him), you can't say that he was "too weak" to power up Buu. And you don't feel that someone that is pure evil absolutely uncontrollable, even by the person that is believed to be his creator, wouldn't make someone an extremely troublesome individual?
Yet he didn't judge Freeza's strength on his physical appearance. His comment specifically tells us otherwise. I never said at any point that Goku doesn't comment an opponent's physical appearance. What I said, repeatedly, is that Goku does not judge an opponent's strength on their physical appearance if he can sense their ki. THAT is what I said was out of character for Goku, that he does not judge an opponent's strength on their physical appearance if he can sense their ki. He judged Freeza on his strength first, and then commented that he expected him to look differently as a result.

Since Goku's comment about their chances against Buu wasn't about Buu's appearance, it could only be because he sensed a power drop.
As pointed out earlier, Goku was attempting to bluff their way out of fighting Evil Buu, and only accepted that they'd need to fight him once his bluff failed. At that point, Vegeta had went for Mr. Buu's pod, making it unnecessary to fight. Likewise, Goku didn't realize there was any change in power to him, and there's no indication that either were tired from their time as Vegetto (they'd be just as tired, if not moreso, when it came to Kaioushin's planet and the fight with Pure Buu).
Review the formula comment from earlier. It isn't possible for Pure Buu to any more powerful than Pure Evil Buu, meaning that Evil Buu, being both Pure Evil Buu's strength and the power of the Kaioushin together, would be more powerful than Pure Buu as well.
Buu only lost power when absorbing one Kaioushin, not both, and it's not a far fetched theory when it fits what is shown. Likewise, there's no need to mention South Kaioushin making him stronger when it's established there was only one redaction to the rule. It wasn't ever said that absorbing Piccolo made Buu stronger, but because he also caused a form change and he didn't fit into the single redaction of the rule, we are able to say that he did make him more powerful. Same with South Kaioushin. He caused a form change (it isn't said what kind of form change is needed, just that one occurs) and isn't the single redaction, so he had to have strengthened Buu.

It is readily indicated that Dai Kaioushin is exceptionally pure, gentle, and benevolent (to the point that he's described using them), so he was just that much more benevolent and pure than South Kaioushin was.
As said many times now, all references to ki in relation to the Genki Dama is still just meaning genki. If there wasn't a difference between them, Toriyama wouldn't have had characters comment on genki specifically, or establish later that genki isn't just ki in his universe, but a part of it.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:20 am

You proved me why it was my mistake for getting into arguments with you who's only reliant on twisting anything which goes against his arguments and add new theories and by using "only logical explanation" just grasping at straws and to fit his desperate points even assume that there are new plotholes or bad writing so that your points can work. Even denying direct evidences if provided and totally changing plot points or lore.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:20 am
You proved me why it was my mistake for getting into arguments with you who's only reliant on twisting anything which goes against his arguments and add new theories and by using "only logical explanation" just grasping at straws and to fit his desperate points even assume that there are new plotholes or bad writing so that your points can work. Even denying direct evidences if provided and totally changing plot points or lore.
I think you make a strong argument, but let’s rewind it back to Goku training Goten and Trunks. He has them go SSJ full power to get an idea how powerful they’d be once they do a SSJ Fusion. He concludes that at the very least he’d be capable of beating Fat Buu.
That would mean that at the very least SSJ Gotenks is comparable to SSJ3 Goku. Making SSJ3 Gotenks overkill. Help me understand this. Why would Goku’s calculations be that off. Unless you still think Kid Buu > Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:23 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:20 am
You proved me why it was my mistake for getting into arguments with you who's only reliant on twisting anything which goes against his arguments and add new theories and by using "only logical explanation" just grasping at straws and to fit his desperate points even assume that there are new plotholes or bad writing so that your points can work. Even denying direct evidences if provided and totally changing plot points or lore.
There's been no twisting of facts or arguments on my end though. It fits everything described and explained to us perfectly, doesn't require characters to say something but mean something entirely different, doesn't introduce any more plot holes than your version does, etc. Just because it runs counter to your beliefs doesn't mean that it's just desperate headcanon, especially when it fits everything provided.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:08 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
I think you make a strong argument, but let’s rewind it back to Goku training Goten and Trunks. He has them go SSJ full power to get an idea how powerful they’d be once they do a SSJ Fusion. He concludes that at the very least he’d be capable of beating Fat Buu.
That would mean that at the very least SSJ Gotenks is comparable to SSJ3 Goku. Making SSJ3 Gotenks overkill. Help me understand this. Why would Goku’s calculations be that off. Unless you still think Kid Buu > Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.
Goku could be right about SS Gotenks being able to beat Fat Boo, but why should SS Gotenks be comparable to SS3 Goku? As far as I can tell Goku went easy on Fat Boo.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:00 pm

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:20 am
You proved me why it was my mistake for getting into arguments with you who's only reliant on twisting anything which goes against his arguments and add new theories and by using "only logical explanation" just grasping at straws and to fit his desperate points even assume that there are new plotholes or bad writing so that your points can work. Even denying direct evidences if provided and totally changing plot points or lore.
I think you make a strong argument, but let’s rewind it back to Goku training Goten and Trunks. He has them go SSJ full power to get an idea how powerful they’d be once they do a SSJ Fusion. He concludes that at the very least he’d be capable of beating Fat Buu.
That would mean that at the very least SSJ Gotenks is comparable to SSJ3 Goku. Making SSJ3 Gotenks overkill. Help me understand this. Why would Goku’s calculations be that off. Unless you still think Kid Buu > Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.
Goku's statement is an obvious Lie. He said to Piccolo that he told Boo that someone stronger than him will come, but if you review the dialogue, no such thing appears. He told Boo that the ones Boo is looking for will come in 2 days but to Piccolo he told he said that he told Boo about someone stronger than him will appear. Then he even told Piccolo that not only was he holding back his ssj3 but was taking a gamble in wanting the kids to kill Boo.

Pre ROSAT Gotenks has never been shown to be anywhere near Goku. In fact, the only time Gotenks was stated to be above Goku is when he went Ssj3. That's all.

You're using Goku's unreliable statement about Gotenks despite earlier on, he said that it's a gamble, and later on, he implies that Gotenks was not supposed to be a definitive solution

Piccolo implied that Pre ROSAT Gotenks is below even Grey Boo, so you'd have to suggest that Goku is inferior to Fat Boo by far which is abysmal

So if Gotenks is above Goku, I guess Fat Boo > Goku too? Despite evidence in the Manga says otherwise clearly.

Goku has never been shown to be weaker than Gotenks or Gohan. The burden of proof is on you to show me.

Either way, my point was about Pure Boo being above Base Evil Boo (aka Super Boo).
Darkprince410 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:23 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:20 am
You proved me why it was my mistake for getting into arguments with you who's only reliant on twisting anything which goes against his arguments and add new theories and by using "only logical explanation" just grasping at straws and to fit his desperate points even assume that there are new plotholes or bad writing so that your points can work. Even denying direct evidences if provided and totally changing plot points or lore.
There's been no twisting of facts or arguments on my end though. It fits everything described and explained to us perfectly, doesn't require characters to say something but mean something entirely different, doesn't introduce any more plot holes than your version does, etc. Just because it runs counter to your beliefs doesn't mean that it's just desperate headcanon, especially when it fits everything provided.
That's why you are taking Goku being "scared" of Evil Boo on face value but ignore Kibitoshin going from celebrating after seeing Evil Boo to shitting his pants, because Toriyama will totally keep drawing his scared face for us to ignore. Then you completely ignore how Goku sensed Boo's Power growing after taking out Good Boo who is Kaioshin influence, and then not only Toriyama made Vegeta comment on how size but even Goku this time agreeing with him only for both to admit they were underestimating Boo. Then Kibitoshin told how Boo lost power through absorption which relates to the earlier power Goku sensed after detaching Good Boo. Irrespective of what you think, the Fact remains that both Kaioshins in Boo brought his power down, even if we believe South Kaioshin powered him up then Dai Kaioshin weakened him to the point that it's impact was more than South Kaioshin. Which means Pure Boo lost more power than gaining it, that's why the product of absorbing 2 Kaioshins is him getting weakened. Then that power source in Fat boo is taken out together and power skyrocketed because he gained that blocked power and that's why anime rightfully called Pure Boo the strongest atleast in comparison to Evil Boo in base. That alone should prove that, then you're making baseless assumptions that Goku surrendered near Pure Boo's blast because of size? Goku is not the one to surrender unless he thinks he has zero chance. With Vegeta's Gyallic Ho he was in similar position and the blast he charged was above him yet he countered, Pure Boo's blast was packed with so much power that Goku didn't even bothered with ssj3. This is the same Goku who went ssj3 when needed to near Gotenks-Boo, yet he didn't even try ssj3 that says something. Throughout the story Toriyama has proven that a bigger version of same blast is strong like Genki Dama on Namek in comparison to Saiyan arc or Goku's Kamehamehas. The example of Shin Kikoho is horrible because Cell was stuck in a disadvantageous position yet kept tanking it and coming out of the pit only to be pushed back, he took 0 damage and throughout the attack was looking at androids escaping from him. Freeza one is even more hilarious assumption, Goku never gauged Freeza's Full Power and himself said that he wasn't sure if Freeza will be beaten by Genki Dama or not. But, the point is Freeza was also caught up in a disadvantageous position. He was caught off guard when he was trying to blow Namek due to forgetting about Genki-Dama. In Pure Boo's case, Vegeta just deflected Pure Boo's blast, only for Pure Boo to introduce a powered up blast and Goku not even bothering with ssj3 but straight up admitting defeat and pleading to Pure Boo.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:53 pm

Pre ROSAT Gotenks has never been shown to be anywhere near Goku. In fact, the only time Gotenks was stated to be above Goku is when he went Ssj3. That's all.
Goku comments on being surprised that he can't sense Gotenks' ki when he suddenly realized he couldn't sense Evil Buu's ki when Buu entered the Room of Spirit and Time.
Since it's established that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the lowest level of power that can be sensed from Kaioushin's planet, and Goku was surprised that he couldn't sense Gotenks' ki when he couldn't sense Evil Buu's anymore, then he fully expected to be able to sense Gotenks' ki if Gotenks were to try and battle Buu. Therefore, Super Saiyan Gotenks would have at least been in the ballpark of Super Saiyan 3.
That's why you are taking Goku being "scared" of Evil Boo on face value but ignore Kibitoshin going from celebrating after seeing Evil Boo to shitting his pants, because Toriyama will totally keep drawing his scared face for us to ignore.
When he's had Kaioushin constantly be a terrible detector of ki up to that point? There's a reason to doubt his fears as legitimate. Unless you think that Pui Pui was a legitimate threat to characters able to go Super Saiyan.
Then you completely ignore how Goku sensed Boo's Power growing after taking out Good Boo who is Kaioshin influence, and then not only Toriyama made Vegeta comment on how size but even Goku this time agreeing with him only for both to admit they were underestimating Boo.
And then Goku indicates a power drop when he establishes he CAN defeat Pure Buu but previously couldn't defeat Evil Buu. And, as said, nothing about Goku's comment indicates he's agreeing with Vegeta or judging Buu on his size. Goku had previously commented on trying to drop Buu's strength to a level where they could manage something, and then his comment after is just a follow up to that, exclaiming that they've succeeded in doing just that (weakening him).
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
That and, as mentioned many times before, it would be severely out of Goku's character to judge an individual's strength on their physical appearance if he could sense their ki. Your "counter" of his comment to Freeza was not him judging Freeza's strength on his appearance, but just the opposite, that he judged his appearance based on his strength (expecting him to not be as small/young looking given how powerful he was).
Then Kibitoshin told how Boo lost power through absorption which relates to the earlier power Goku sensed after detaching Good Boo. Irrespective of what you think, the Fact remains that both Kaioshins in Boo brought his power down, even if we believe South Kaioshin powered him up then Dai Kaioshin weakened him to the point that it's impact was more than South Kaioshin. Which means Pure Boo lost more power than gaining it, that's why the product of absorbing 2 Kaioshins is him getting weakened.
Kibitoshin's comment clearly states only one Kaioushin weakend Buu, and Dai Kaioushin weakening Buu more than South Kaioushin strengthened him only factored in to Fat Buu. With Evil Buu, that diminishing effect was virtually non-existent, so Evil Buu had all of Pure Buu's power as well as the two Kaioushin's strength, with virtually none of his power dropped, thus Evil Buu being stronger.
The example of Shin Kikoho is horrible because Cell was stuck in a disadvantageous position yet kept tanking it and coming out of the pit only to be pushed back, he took 0 damage and throughout the attack was looking at androids escaping from him. Freeza one is even more hilarious assumption, Goku never gauged Freeza's Full Power and himself said that he wasn't sure if Freeza will be beaten by Genki Dama or not. But, the point is Freeza was also caught up in a disadvantageous position. He was caught off guard when he was trying to blow Namek due to forgetting about Genki-Dama. In Pure Boo's case, Vegeta just deflected Pure Boo's blast, only for Pure Boo to introduce a powered up blast and Goku not even bothering with ssj3 but straight up admitting defeat and pleading to Pure Boo.
Just because they counter your argument doesn't mean they're horrible examples.

Cell had plenty of time after the first hit to be able to block or deflect them if he could, yet he kept getting pushed down by them. The blasts did not have near enough power to hurt him and were nowhere near his strength, but he couldn't counter them.

Likewise, Freeza only used his 50% full power to defend against the Genki Dama, and he still had seconds after re-realizing the Genki Dama was there to try and defend against it. He readily turned around and put his hands up to block it, and then for the entire length of time he was descending down to the surface, he was still struggling against it, yet it still wasn't enough to kill him despite that he couldn't stop it.

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