Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am

Tsufuru wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:14 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:33 pm
spirit bomb doesnt stop gotenks and gohan from being stronger than goku.

it was the last resort becouse they couldnt do anything else.
That’s exactly the problem with this argument. It’s contradictory.

Of course, they did not fuse when they had the opportunity, because they thought they could manage something. But once they figured out they could not, they didn’t have the Potara anymore and Boo wouldn’t give 90 minutes for them to perfect Fusion.

But, they could have Gohan to do the job..

A lot people assume Toriyama ditched that option to make people realize how important is cooperation or because Gohan and Gotenks are too stupid and mess things up. It doesn’t sound like Toriyama to do something like that. As far as he tolds this story, cooperation only happens when the enemy is too strong for a single hero. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

That, and for genkidama to work is required a lot of contributing factors, like billions of people trusting Goku, Boo not noting what they were doing, and Goku having the stamina to handle that power.

What seems anticlimactic for me is having all that unnecessary drama, while having a single hero quite capable to do the job.
they were dead.
your argument is no better than me saying toriyama made kid buu kill them so goku can fight the last battle.

if toriyama would have wanted some1 else to finsh final battle he would have done it.
Super buu > kid buu.
gohan > goku.
nothing states or implies something else in the manga.
Man, what are you talking about? After Goku lost ssj3 they started to rely on dende only. They were an option, them being dead doesn't matter because they had Namekian Dragon Balls either way, if Gohan was enough they would have instantly wished him to the location and not chosen Genki Dama.

Kid Boo > Super Boo is a fact, atleast in base. The absorptions of both Kaioshins lowered Boo's powers and Vegeta took them out which resulted in Kid boo, is it that hard to interpret? Even 10 year-old Japanese kids can see it. That's the whole reason why Kibitoshin told that Kid Boo got weaker by absorptions.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3142
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:50 am

Tsufuru wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:14 am
they were dead.
your argument is no better than me saying toriyama made kid buu kill them so goku can fight the last battle.

if toriyama would have wanted some1 else to finsh final battle he would have done it.
Gohan and the kids? This thread is about when they were brought back to life... the discussion is about why not using Gohan instead of genkidama. Not about what happened chapters before.

So far, the main argument I see in favor of genkidama here is because it’s assumed it would be a lackluster ending for the arc if the much stronger Gohan finished Boo. Isn’t genkidama used when everything else doesn’t work? Like literally in every other instance it was used in Dragon Ball.

User avatar
Darkprince410
I Live Here
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:24 am

Did it ever occur to you that Toriyama may have wanted the ending that he chose for its dramatic value rather than going with something more logical? For the final fight of the franchise (as far as he knew), which would be more appealing? Goku and Vegeta struggling against an enemy, asking for the genki of everyone on Earth, and ending it with a dramatic Genki Dama, or Gohan coming up and casually destroying Buu with a single blast? It makes perfect sense for Toriyama to have written the ending that way and going with decisions that fly in the face of logic if he wanted to make the ending more overly dramatic and epic. Overconfidence or not, the fact remains that Goku still chose a riskier approach to fighting Buu than the much easier alternative of just accepting the Potara earrings and finishing Buu off instantly, meaning that the precedent is already there.
That's not the same comparison though, because with Piccolo and Gotenks, both of them powered Buu up. This was established by Rou Kaioushin's comment. With the two Kaioushin, it was stated only one weakened him, while the other powered him up.
No one hinted power decrease, Pure Boo was mocked by Vegeta and Goku due to size because Vegeta admitted later on that Pure Boo was far stronger than he imagined by thinking Goku was holding back for him only for Goku to tell him that he was trying to act cool and potara was the better option.
No, only Vegeta's comment can be attributed to Buu's size. There is no evidence whatsoever that Goku's comment was about Buu's size as well, and it would go completely out of his character for Goku to have done so (as stated several times so far).
Toriyama in his manga literally established no difference between ki and Genki. One moment they say ki, other moment it's genki. Genki itself means origin of Ki, or basic life force, ki is life force too.
He established a difference by using genki in the first place. If there was no difference intended, there wouldn't have been a need to include another name in the first place. It does not matter what genki may have meant at one time, it now means the energy one has when healthy or vigorous, and Toriyama has established that genki is not the entirety of ki, but a single element of it.
Yea it makes so much more sense Gohan will only donate a portion of his power seeing how the universe is on brink of extinction as Pure Boo is about to win.
He donated every bit of the energy that he could donate, but given that genki is only a portion of his entire ki, there was all those remaining elements that he couldn't donate because the Genki Dama doesn't take them.
LOL what? Goku/Vegeta ignore everyone's advice so much that they are relied on dende and co. Again, they don't have any reason to act tough because both Goku and Vegeta admitted that they were underestimating Pure Boo, both were badly worn out to the point Goku said he's end of his rope and Vegeta calls it worse case scenario. The fact that they both in tired state refuse the help of gotenks and Gohan, the fact that after getting revived despite not having his ki full Vegeta is willing to fight Pure Boo in base, the fact that Goku is forced to beg earthlings and then call them "why don't you understand, stupid bastards", the fact that after Vegeta was too tired to move, him wanting Goku to fire the Genkidama to kill both boo and him together proves that Gohan and Gotenks were not capable of killing boo.
It proves absolutely nothing, since at no point is it said or even suggested that the boys wouldn't have been more than enough. There is one reason, and one reason only, that is given for the Genki Dama being chosen, and any other reason one can "surmise" is baseless. Did you see, at any point, Dende or any of the others offer advice to Goku and Vegeta after they left Kaioushin's planet? No, because at that point, they had accepted that the two were going to fight their own way, and only contributed to help them out with their own plans.
Metamoran fusion is even more risky, didn't you see Broly? It's not something anyone can master in one go. Goku took a week to learn it in Afterlife, Vegeta despite being battle genius mastered it in 3 tries and you think they have this much time on Kaioshin realm when they even struggled to buy Goku 1 minute near pure Boo to gather ki? That's exactly what Goku told Piccolo, Kuririn and Dende on Kami's Lookout that it would have been unlikely for Vegeta or Gohan to master Fusion in such a short time to kill Fat Boo.
Yet Goku was still desperate enough to try it with Vegeta when it came to fighting Evil Buu, and Rou Kaioushin even got mad at them not deciding to use that either when it came to fighting Pure Buu, so you have Goku in a situation where he was desperate enough for that particular risk, and for Rou Kaioushin to have "recommended" it to them. In both situations, they'd have had literally no time to mess around if they failed, so it was clearly wasn't that risky of an alternative.

And finally, just to address you in general. My "theories" are there to address situations that don't have an explanation in the manga, and are based squarely on the facts provided. There's no bias involved, simply the following of the facts as they're provided, and piecing together what happened in situations when facts aren't provided. With Buu's reversion, we're not told explicitly why we saw South Kaioushin Buu appear, but we have facts to go off of.

1) Buu only changes appearances based on influences within him.

2) There was a heavily indicated power drop once Buu reverted from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu.

3) Only the Dai Kaioushin weakened Pure Buu, whereas South Kaioushin strengthened him.

4) Buu's reversion from Evil Buu to Pure Buu took considerably longer than any of the other reversions we saw following absorption removals.

With those facts, the only thing that can be determined is that, despite being disconnected, their influences were still within Buu for a short while after, and the slow physical changes and ki fluctuations we saw after were because of those influences still. Buu's reversion to South Kaioushin Buu was from Dai Kaioushin's influence finally fading away completely, and the strength suppressed by Dai's influence being expressed again explains the ki increase. South Kaioushin's influence fading then corresponds to Buu returning to the state he was in before absorbing him, and the reduced power he had given that he was no longer strengthened by South.

I could go on with the one or two other "theories", but the fact remains that they're only there to explain the gaps in official explanation we're given, but support the facts provided.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:50 am

So far, the main argument I see in favor of genkidama here is because it’s assumed it would be a lackluster ending for the arc if the much stronger Gohan finished Boo. Isn’t genkidama used when everything else doesn’t work? Like literally in every other instance it was used in Dragon Ball.
In the only two other times it was used, there was never any alternative option available to them in the first place. Goku was the only one fighting Vegeta and Goku was the only one fighting Freeza. No one else was anywhere near strong enough to do so. With this last one, we're given the only reason Vegeta felt the Genki Dama should be used, and this was after Goku had brought up Gohan and Gotenks as if they were viable options.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3327
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:57 am

The universe was at stake. If I have an opportunity to crush the enemy with all my might, I'm going for the overkill.

Why summon one when you can bring both?

Base Gotenks powered-up significantly after training. Base Goku isn't anywhere near his level. Same would apply to all of his transformations.

Gohan's dormant power>>>>Goku's. Super Saiyan 3 takes the Saiyan's power to its limits. Gohan had his drawn out to his limits and pushed far beyond that. No way is Goku above Gohan.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

theherodjl
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by theherodjl » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:58 pm

Some people are seriously suggesting that the team of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks under their own strength could not defeat Pure Boo and that is a little concerning. Goku alone with SSJ3 was dealing major damage to Pure Boo but just couldn't inflict a killing blow that could completely disintegrate him. Even if you believe that Goku was the strongest of them then surely Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks could've jumped in and dealt the killing blow after Goku used a massive kamehameha? Boo's vulnerable whenever he is regenerating so it wouldn't be too difficult.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3142
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:41 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:24 am
we're given the only reason Vegeta felt the Genki Dama should be used, and this was after Goku had brought up Gohan and Gotenks as if they were viable options.
Which is “bringing back Gohan and Gotenks would be too easy, let’s put the universe under the Earthlings responsability just for once, since Kakarot had been saving them all the time”. I don’t know about you, but this never made any sense for me. Saiyans are not willing to delegate responsibility, unless of course that is the only way. Assuming Gohan and Gotenks are a viable option for that fight destroys the importance of genkidama, in my opinion. But whatever, have a Happy Easter weekend guys.

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:53 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:24 am

There's nothing dramatic lol, if a writer mentions easy solution then keeps on drawing his pic or mentioning about his contribute then no one is gonna root for good guys ignoring easy victory over a technique which never worked. No one is gonna bother watching unless they like bad narratives or are okay with "turn your brain off" action. The only thing according to Goku which could have killed Boo was Vegetto's one blast not Gohan's so where are you getting these ridiculous theories? You basically equated Gohan with Vegetto now. It makes no sense for any story to have the hero be close to defeating the villain and having the gun in his hand then dropping it despite having advantage, that's how your narrative is. Here we go another new "only logical explanation" theory, even though it makes no sense that an exhausted Goku would want to turn psychopath and abuse earthlings on not getting energy or wanting to ditch his own son and wanting to take both Vegeta and Pure Boo out with Genki-Dama. You proved me how less you understand Goku's character, him wanting to fight Pure Boo was not because some stupid precedent being set but desire to fight the strongest characters one-on-one, it's in interviews and Toriyama has the trope of making Goku fight strongest forms of villains alone in Z. This is no different, after losing ssj3 Goku had no reason to still cling to it now that he saw how much durable Boo was. The moment he's forced to take help from dende and co. Shows that he's not about fighting with his own power anymore.

Why did i ever bother with you on that.... "Remnant ki" and "Fuel Pump" theory right? :D

Because it's totally not out of character for him to ditch his son despite seeing his power from close.

The first description Goku gives of Genki Dama to Kuririn who was unaware of what it was, was that he gathered Ki from Earth. On Namek too, Goku talks about gathering enough Ki and Kuririn commented on Goku borrowing ki from neighbouring planets. You don't really understand that Genki and ki here are same.

Genki is quite literally vitality, while yuuki is bravery, and shouki is being in your right mind. Its as metaphysical as the other two and all three are what Ki is made of. And without any one of them, a person has no usable Ki.

So, quite literally, when a person donates Genki to the Genki Dama, what is being donated is his or hers vitality, which is an essential part of his or hers Ki. But being only part of his or hers Ki, even though the donation can drain a person and make that person unable to fight or do much of anything because the person is left with little vitality and little usable Ki since Ki requires Genki to be formed, the total power of what is donated is inferior to what the person could produce by herself or himself with his or hers total Ki.
all of these terms are included into the concept of Ki. But I say it again, ki is spiritual force. You don't seem to understand that genki belongs to the "force" part while the two others belong to the "spirit" dimension. You're confusing things.
Only genki is energy. When you're not in your right mind, your ki is lowered only because you can't use your energy, not because a part of your energy has vanished. Yuuki and shouki are not energy. It's just that your state of mind can affect your ability to use your power. So, you won't be stronger strictly speaking because you're brave.
So, regarding the genkidama, the Earthlings' state of mind doesn't matter because they're not performing a technique, the genkidama takes their power directly from their bodies.

Goku said it was useless because he thought it was the "classic genkidama". After Vegeta explained it to him, he agreed and began to make a genkidama. Obviously Goku was thinking that Vegeta's version of the genkidama was a better idea than bringing Gohan.
They didn't use the potalas because Vegeta didn't want to merge with Goku no matter what. And when they destroyed them, Pure Boo wasn't in the Kaioshinkai yet and Goku was about to "come up with a plan". Later, Goku realized he underestimated Pure Boo and then he regretted to have destroyed the potalas.
When Goku is telling they will be killed inside super boo, he has not yet asked Vegeta for fusion dance. That's why he lied. To better convince Vegeta to fuse.
they couldn't. I don't know why people are coming up with these "theories" when it's strongly suggested that this form of BUU was stronger, meaner and more dangerous than the others (maybe except boohan since potara is what goku wanted with him too). Goku suggested bringing the boys (plural) insinuating more than "just" Gohan's help would be needed.Genki is quite literally vitality, while yuuki is bravery, and shouki is being in your right mind. Its as metaphysical as the other two and all three are what Ki is made of. And without any one of them, a person has no usable Ki.

So, quite literally, when a person donates Genki to the Genki Dama, what is being donated is his or hers vitality, which is an essential part of his or hers Ki. But being only part of his or hers Ki, even though the donation can drain a person and make that person unable to fight or do much of anything because the person is left with little vitality and little usable Ki since Ki requires Genki to be formed, the total power of what is donated is inferior to what the person could produce by herself or himself with his or hers total Ki.
all of these terms are included into the concept of Ki. But I say it again, ki is spiritual force. You don't seem to understand that genki belongs to the "force" part while the two others belong to the "spirit" dimension. You're confusing things.
Only genki is energy. When you're not in your right mind, your ki is lowered only because you can't use your energy, not because a part of your energy has vanished. Yuuki and shouki are not energy. It's just that your state of mind can affect your ability to use your power. So, you won't be stronger strictly speaking because you're brave.
So, regarding the genkidama, the Earthlings' state of mind doesn't matter because they're not performing a technique, the genkidama takes their power directly from their bodies. You use "Toriyama says it" card conveniently and then ignore anything from him which goes against your arguments.

Goku said it was useless because he thought it was the "classic genkidama". After Vegeta explained it to him, he agreed and began to make a genkidama. Obviously Goku was thinking that Vegeta's version of the genkidama was a better idea than bringing Gohan.
They didn't use the potaras because Vegeta didn't want to merge with Goku no matter what. And when they destroyed them, Pure Boo wasn't in the Kaioshinkai yet and Goku was about to "come up with a plan". Later, Goku realized he underestimated Pure Boo and then he regretted to have destroyed the potaras.

I wish Gohan had a way to send his courage and mind as well... Poor Gohan :( then it would have killed boo

Wait, what? Then Goku and Vegeta only commenting on Boo's size and then not refuting about his rising ki is a fact, adding anything is baseless. Kibitoshin never saying anything about South Kaioshin powering boo up and saying he did power up Boo is baseless too. Because dende and Kaioshin knew that Vegetto was the only one who can kill him. You think everyone will become psychopath and keep on contributing to a failing Genki Dama plan even when it almost fails?

He never had Pure Boo near him who made one minute seem like eternity. Elder Kaioshin was mad at them because of not fighting together and going one-on-one.

Again, Pure Boo fight is pointless if Gohan alone can kill him. You're fan of bad writing.


Your theories are far fetched. There is such a big power drop in pure Boo that everyone seems to not mention it only heavily indicate it?

So boo loses his South Kaioshin absorbed power but never gets back his own power which went down with absorption too? Should not that make him stronger?

Yea sure. It's pointless to tell you anything, you are willing to change lore at this point.

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:58 pm
Some people are seriously suggesting that the team of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks under their own strength could not defeat Pure Boo and that is a little concerning. Goku alone with SSJ3 was dealing major damage to Pure Boo but just couldn't inflict a killing blow that could completely disintegrate him. Even if you believe that Goku was the strongest of them then surely Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks could've jumped in and dealt the killing blow after Goku used a massive kamehameha? Boo's vulnerable whenever he is regenerating so it wouldn't be too difficult.
You are reading a different manga.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.1
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for awhile
Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7
Context: after one of Goku’s attacks damages Boo
Goku: “That bastard…Even though he can quickly return to normal, he’s playing around by purposefully drawing it out…”
*Boo is clearly lollygagging*
Boo's regeneration was way too extraordinary from other Boos. Despite taking hits from goku his stamina was same.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:41 pm
Darkprince410 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:24 am
we're given the only reason Vegeta felt the Genki Dama should be used, and this was after Goku had brought up Gohan and Gotenks as if they were viable options.
Which is “bringing back Gohan and Gotenks would be too easy, let’s put the universe under the Earthlings responsability just for once, since Kakarot had been saving them all the time”. I don’t know about you, but this never made any sense for me. Saiyans are not willing to delegate responsibility, unless of course that is the only way. Assuming Gohan and Gotenks are a viable option for that fight destroys the importance of genkidama, in my opinion. But whatever, have a Happy Easter weekend guys.
Establishing someone stronger and yet heroes ignoring him diminishes any tension and makes it pointless to follow the fight.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

User avatar
Darkprince410
I Live Here
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:31 pm

At no point does Goku say or indicate that the one thing that could kill Buu was Vegetto's one blast. He only brings up Vegetto because the Potaras would have been the absolute quickest way of them defeating, not the only way. The fact that he believed he could do so with a blast at his full strength proves this isn't the case at all. Goku likes fighting strong enemies, yes, this is undeniable, but he likes fighting strong enemies he at least believes he stands a chance against or has ulterior motives to fight them for. His acceptance of him standing no chance against Gotenks Buu without fusion, and his absolute insistence on coaxing Vegeta into fusing with him against Gohan Buu show this to be the case.
Why did i ever bother with you on that.... "Remnant ki" and "Fuel Pump" theory right? :D
Because they explain perfectly what happened, and you just don't have any counter to it?
Why do you keep going back to this? There are more than three elements to ki. Toriyama didn't indicate that those three were the only ones, and his words specifically indicate the opposite, and that he just used those as examples of some of the elements that comprise it. If he had said there were only three, then you'd maybe have an argument, but he just mentioned three as an example of the vast number of elements that comprise it.
Except you right there are using a fan theory to support your argument. There is no evidence whatsoever that Goku was lying when he said that he and Vegeta would be killed if they tried fighting Evil Buu outside. None whatsoever. Please don't get at me for coming up with fan theories and then turn around and use your own to support your argument, especially when yours has no evidence supporting it whereas mine at least do.

As for what Goku said, I've explained that before. He used a non-exhaustive "and" when mentioning Gohan and the boys, which just means that he was talking about bringing everyone to life and they were just examples of those being brought back. Likewise, as said earlier, there are far more than three elements. Toriyama just mentioned those three as examples of all the different elements there were.
No, only Vegeta commented about Buu's size. Nothing about Goku's comment (and it would be extremely out of character for him to do so) remotely suggested he was talking about Buu's size, and instead fits perfectly with his own earlier comments about weakening Buu to a level where they could fight him on their own.

Dende and Kaioushin didn't know that "Vegetto" was the only one that could kill him, just that he was the very best option to it. Not sure why you keep believing they thought he was the only one.

Buu already regained the entirety of his own power when he lost the influence of Dai Kaioushin. When we see South Kaioushin Buu, that is Pure Buu's full power and the power of South Kaioushin together. Then, he loses the power of South Kaioushin and grows weaker.

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:50 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:14 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am

That’s exactly the problem with this argument. It’s contradictory.

Of course, they did not fuse when they had the opportunity, because they thought they could manage something. But once they figured out they could not, they didn’t have the Potara anymore and Boo wouldn’t give 90 minutes for them to perfect Fusion.

But, they could have Gohan to do the job..

A lot people assume Toriyama ditched that option to make people realize how important is cooperation or because Gohan and Gotenks are too stupid and mess things up. It doesn’t sound like Toriyama to do something like that. As far as he tolds this story, cooperation only happens when the enemy is too strong for a single hero. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

That, and for genkidama to work is required a lot of contributing factors, like billions of people trusting Goku, Boo not noting what they were doing, and Goku having the stamina to handle that power.

What seems anticlimactic for me is having all that unnecessary drama, while having a single hero quite capable to do the job.
they were dead.
your argument is no better than me saying toriyama made kid buu kill them so goku can fight the last battle.

if toriyama would have wanted some1 else to finsh final battle he would have done it.
Super buu > kid buu.
gohan > goku.
nothing states or implies something else in the manga.
Man, what are you talking about? After Goku lost ssj3 they started to rely on dende only. They were an option, them being dead doesn't matter because they had Namekian Dragon Balls either way, if Gohan was enough they would have instantly wished him to the location and not chosen Genki Dama.

Kid Boo > Super Boo is a fact, atleast in base. The absorptions of both Kaioshins lowered Boo's powers and Vegeta took them out which resulted in Kid boo, is it that hard to interpret? Even 10 year-old Japanese kids can see it. That's the whole reason why Kibitoshin told that Kid Boo got weaker by absorptions.
iirc only one kaioshin made him weaker.
and its impossible for goku to be stronger than gotenks ssj3 and gohan.
kid buu => goku ssj3.

thank you for proving the point about toriyama wanting goku to end it with a spirit bomb.
vegeta already wanted gotenks and gohan , why didnt he wan to get them when goku told him after restoring every1? he said he want humanity to take responsibility twice.
he didnt try to give a reason or anything he straight up said no and than said he wants humanity to take responsibility.
yh , clearly toriyama wanted it to end with the spirit bomb even when he could have made them get gohan and gotenks and beat the shit out of kid buu and wipe him out with a triple atack.

gotenks ssj3 plus gohan plus goku ssj3 would have destroyed kid buu with the utmost ease.

goku already stated they have no chance against super buu before.
nothing implies kid buu is stronger than super buu.
its impossible for him to be that strong.
its nowhere close to be a fact how you claim.
at best and i mean realy at best you can argue he is close to super buu in power.

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:13 pm

ignore that i wrote vegeta already wanted them.

theherodjl
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by theherodjl » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:03 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:53 pm
You are reading a different manga.
I am not, you're simply choosing to be disagreeable with anyone who challenges your viewpoint. Whatever you want to interpret from the source material is your prerogative but claiming that people with opposing arguments rely on nothing but "headcanon" or are not reading the same manga as you is just willful ignorance.
I see little point in this thread when you're just shitposting away any meaningful discussion, I don't play that game.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3327
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:11 am

Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”

Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.
Goku already had Fat Boo in mind when he was thinking about tangling with Boo without Fusion. Clearly he wanted no parts of Super Boo.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
Desassina
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1274
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Desassina » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:15 am

Isn't the point of Shueisha coming out and saying that Evil Boo gained power on par with SSJ3 Goku when he absorbed Ultimate Gohan that the two of them were equal? If Goku can fight Pure Boo almost equally, then Gohan and Gotenks can as well, otherwise lose to Majin Boo once more. The publisher ended the subject, which had been open for years, so that it can finally be continued. Let go of it. The argument has been ridiculous for years.

User avatar
Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:30 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:31 pm

Goku was fighting without without holding back and taking time to gather ki by help of someone else means he isn't capable of beating boo alone. Nowhere in the series anyone took time to gather ki to fire a full power blast, it's obviously because Pure Boo was not losing stamina and was way too quick with regeneration so he was trying to create a big blast but it was not supposed to work because he himself wasn't used to the form and it was a decision Goku took in heat of the battle because he was in a pinch. After killing Boo, he admitted that he needs to train which makes it clear that he wasn't very confident in killing Boo in ssj3. Also no, Goku never even gauged full power of Freeza and Vegeta when he fought him and him being shocked in middle of battle because of their power is proof that him challenging them alone wasn't because of him being sure of beating, but desire to test his power with strongest. Even in Saiyan arc there is a narration which talked about how the more deeper Goku is driven in corner, the more he feels excited due to his Saiyan Blood. Daizenshuu gives the same reason for why Goku wanted to fight Pure Boo alone because of his Saiyan blood stirring. He explicitly said that he challenged boo alone because of him showing off and not because ki being weaker, you can't fill things with baseless assumptions when character himself tells reason for his confidence.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Again nowhere does it prove that his power is weaker, he clearly does that for Saiyan pride because of what Vegeta told Goku in Boo's body that he would rather die than merge with him and him having reason to fight boo, that is him being unfused. Later on, him admitting that he was trying to show off thinking it would be cooler this way. Why do you think Toriyama made Vegeta crush earrings? It's because he wanted to get only solution out of the way. He outright says it's not suited for them and he's being selfish which answer it, he even said to Gohan-Boo that it's unfair to merge with others but with Pure Boo he was underestimating him.

I don't need to counter it when it makes no sense, you can't get someone's life force when they aren't connected and you can't power up right after the source is taken. If he took only Dai Kaioshin influence then it would make sense but no its the influence of both Kaioshins taken out together and his reverse transformation only stops permanently at Pure Boo not Buff Boo so it was Pure Boo's unrestricted ki because his composition was same as Buff Boo.

Gen-ki is ki in context, it's like you debating on it using Qi or Chi for Ki. It's same thing, they keep switching the words from start and this is straight from the series, when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki-Dama, he explicitly told that it's the Ki he gathered from Earth. Kuririn is unaware of it yet Goku uses Ki here, it was the first time Goku was explaining this to someone like Kaio Ken against Nappa yet he says Ki to him.

I was giving you a taste of your own medicine.

The fact still remains that he even uses Gotenks name as an option despite Gohan supposedly being enough and Gotenks not being reliable due to various risks his fusion carried yet he was mentioned.

Again, it would be out of character for him to sit through his son's power up on Kaioshin realm and when the weaker villain comes, him not calling him to one shot him instantly. That's like him choosing Trunks to fight Cell and not Gohan despite Gohan being more powerful. Goku even admitted he was overconfident but according to you, your words >> Toriyama. Are you sure you aren't the one relying on far fetched assumptions?

Because Dende and Kaioshins don't even monologue or talk about Gohan being second option even after Genki-Dama plan was failing. You think they want to perish with everyone but not call for Gohan's help?

What are you talking about? He lost the influence of both Kaioshins together, if you think he lost south Kaioshin's power then he also gained his own powers which went down from Dai Kaioshin. But even if Only DaiKaioshin Powered him down Then He Powered him down to a Much higher level than What South Kaioshin would have made him stronger, basically Super Boo Was powered down version of Kid Boo.

Kibitoshin says About His Power regained which was lowered by absorption and that's why he is worrying and is Shitting his pants not any other thing.

He is afriad of his Power more than anything else, it's clear as hell. Toriyama does this which every main villain after Saiyan arc.

He makes their final form comparatively smaller then a character commenting on his size and other character reacting total opposite.

With Freeza, Kuririn who can sense Ki also talked about his size and how he wasn't looking much threatening then Piccolo correcting him and freeza showing his power by killing dende by an quick beam which no one was able to see.

With Cell, Vegeta uses the exact same word he used for Boo to comment on his size then Kuririn talks about Cell being more powerful and Cell demonstrates that by taking Vegeta's kick head on.


It's same thing here.

Toriyama wanted to show a smaller Boo so the characters get happy and hopeful that now the opponent is more manageable only to be proven utterly wrong later. After Goku said they can now manage something against this Boo, Toriyama starts proving that sentiment wrong. First Kaioshin gives Pure Boo’s backstory to showcase how dangerous this new Boo is and how his power was in fact previously lowered through the Kaioshin absorptions. Then he proceeds to have kid Boo demonstrating his immense power by unleashing a planet busting attack that Goku just watches in awe, flat out stating that he and Vegeta are unable to do anything against it and they scared run away from the planet instead of attempting to stop the attack and save the planet from annihilation. Even though he had ssj3 in his pocket and not once he ran from a Planet busting attack in the show (Vegeta's Gyallic Ho in Saiyan arc or Cell's Kamehameha at earth which Goku countered by making Cell change the direction/angle) and we already saw that big Planet busting attacks can be countered by someone if they are capable of countering them but Goku flat out starts running away from it despite both Earth and his kids being in risk. Goku isn't dumb enough to run away from a blast if he thinks he stands no chance against it no matter how big the blast maybe.


Akira Toriyama Confirms his direct intentions of have the "small and weak looking characters be the strongest" which is affirmed by how he showed Goku and Vegeta underestimating Pure Boo only to fall on their heads. He didn't change his thoughts as he himself says it's been 30 years and he still holds the same idea:
Q: Goku and Arale both have a huge gap between how they look and what they’re capable of.

=> Yeah. I prefer to put most of the focus on the story, so I gave them plain designs, but beyond that I think it boils down to the idea that it’s more interesting to have the weak-looking, plain guys be strong. With Goku, he started out just being a straight-up monkey. Then I thought about it some more and made him a human, but Torishima-san said that he needed to have something to set him apart, so I gave him a tail… but it just kept getting in the way. (laughs)

Q: From the midpoint onward, it became routine for the enemies to transform.

=> It all started with Freeza. I didn’t start out with any plans to have him transform of course, but midway through I thought it might be cool to make it look like a bluff and then have him transform for real. Probably at that point I also thought of giving him a sleek design in the end. I’m in the habit of giving characters progressively more complex and tough-looking forms, then finally making them really sleek. After all, it’s awful drawing them once they get all complex. (laughs) Complex guys are terrible when you have to draw them for weeks on end… Cell was a ton of work, with those darn spots of his. (laughs)

Q: One part of the series’ version of the world are all of the gods that turn up. The fact that they’re also aliens is distinctive as well.

=> I always turn to God in times of trouble. (laughs) Gods and aliens and other unknown beings like that make it easy to craft the story. After all, gods can do practically anything. I have my gods be straightforward and not too fussy, so that children can feel comfortable with them. The reason I give gods attendants… Well, I guess it’s because important people always need butlers, and it’s easy to develop the story through conversations.

Q: So they’re mainly there to provide exposition?

=> Yeah, like with Kibito I gave him a stern face, but it turns out he’s really nothing special. Pretty much all of my strong-looking guys turn out to be weak. I guess I like inverting expectations."


Pure Boo is a kid version of Evil Boo too so it makes even more sense as to why he was on purpose drawn smaller, Vegeta talked about him shrinking as in Evil Boo turning into a kid and everyone getting excited.

The obvious narrative intent for making Boo (Pure Boo) physically smaller (alongside the implicit assumption that he should have been weakened due to the removal of a powerful absorption (Good Buu)) was to have contrast of emotions and subversion of expectations.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”
Boo: “Sto-stop it! Do-don’t touch that! Hands off!”
Vegeta: “Kukkukku…You seem even more panicked than I expected…Apparently it will be quite unfavorable for you…”
Boo: “Th-that’s the only one you mustn’t tear out…! I-I’ll stop being me!”
Goku: “’I’ll stop being me’…?”
Vegeta: “That sounds interesting…Did you really think I’d listen to you?”
Toriyama even went out of his way to achieve this effect as logically removing Good Boo from Evil Boo should have resulted to him reverting back to the Grey Boo we saw earlier. That's typical Toriyama trope, he subverts expectations and that's exactly why he made Vegeta and viewers assume that removing Good Boo will weaken him only for Kaioshin to tell that Pure Boo lost power through absorptions which means Vegeta took out the source of his power getting restricted. It fits perfectly, you're just not willing to accept it.
Tsufuru wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:50 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:14 am


they were dead.
your argument is no better than me saying toriyama made kid buu kill them so goku can fight the last battle.

if toriyama would have wanted some1 else to finsh final battle he would have done it.
Super buu > kid buu.
gohan > goku.
nothing states or implies something else in the manga.
Man, what are you talking about? After Goku lost ssj3 they started to rely on dende only. They were an option, them being dead doesn't matter because they had Namekian Dragon Balls either way, if Gohan was enough they would have instantly wished him to the location and not chosen Genki Dama.

Kid Boo > Super Boo is a fact, atleast in base. The absorptions of both Kaioshins lowered Boo's powers and Vegeta took them out which resulted in Kid boo, is it that hard to interpret? Even 10 year-old Japanese kids can see it. That's the whole reason why Kibitoshin told that Kid Boo got weaker by absorptions.
iirc only one kaioshin made him weaker.
and its impossible for goku to be stronger than gotenks ssj3 and gohan.
kid buu => goku ssj3.

thank you for proving the point about toriyama wanting goku to end it with a spirit bomb.
vegeta already wanted gotenks and gohan , why didnt he wan to get them when goku told him after restoring every1? he said he want humanity to take responsibility twice.
he didnt try to give a reason or anything he straight up said no and than said he wants humanity to take responsibility.
yh , clearly toriyama wanted it to end with the spirit bomb even when he could have made them get gohan and gotenks and beat the shit out of kid buu and wipe him out with a triple atack.

gotenks ssj3 plus gohan plus goku ssj3 would have destroyed kid buu with the utmost ease.

goku already stated they have no chance against super buu before.
nothing implies kid buu is stronger than super buu.
its impossible for him to be that strong.
its nowhere close to be a fact how you claim.
at best and i mean realy at best you can argue he is close to super buu in power.
But even if Only DaiKaioshin Powered him down Then He Powered him down to a Much higher level than What South Kaioshin would have made him stronger basically Super Boo Was powered down version of Kid Boo.

Vegeta and Goku both knew that bringing them won't do any better, that's why they went for Genki Dama. It makes no sense to choose risky solution for easy victory that too where the chances of success are very low, making billions to give power then take beatings from boo and Vegeta after getting revived didn't even have his full ki restored yet went to fight boo in base and when he was too tired to move he wanted Goku to kill both him and boo together, you think he has gone this brain dead that he wants to die with boo but not want Gohan's direct help.

If calling Gohan was easier, Goku would not have agreed to Vegeta's plan and found it incredibly dumb but Goku was satisfied with it.


You aren't even paying attention to statements and stick with your biased statements, if Kaioshin talks about Boo losing power after absorbing 2 Kaioshins and Vegeta took that source out, what will happen? Anyone unbiased can see that Pure Boo was stronger than Super Boo that's why they never called Gohan/Gotenks to kill him. It's such a simple narrative but no "Toriyama wanted to Goku-Vegeta to end pure Boo that's why he never made gotenks and Gohan kill them" :crazy:


Do you realize that Pure Boo fought ssj3 Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo yet was never tired and received 0 damage from fighting 3 of them and was having time of his life until Goku fired Super Genki-Dama.

Goku is also scared of the ki he senses from a holding back Kid Boo on Earth and even verbally mentions they lack the strength to counter him so where does that put Kid Boo in relation to Buff or Super Boo then?


Nothing implies Super Boo is stronger as well, no one mentioned about Boo's ki going down or anything.

It's impossible for Pure Boo to be stronger than Evil Boo if you gloss over statements which hint at him being stronger.

Super Boo was still under the influence of Dai Kaioshin, he was just an eviler manifestation of Fat Boo. He still had a sliver of a soul, which is why he spared Mr. Satan. When Fat Boo was removed from him, that got rid of all the Kaioshin influence and he became pure evil and insane. He powered up when he was transitioning from Buff Boo to Kid Boo.

So basically, yes, the influence of the Kaioshin (which Super Boo also had) weakened him. Absorbing Piccolo and the Saiyans didn't weaken him, but made him stronger.


theherodjl wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:03 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:53 pm
You are reading a different manga.
I am not, you're simply choosing to be disagreeable with anyone who challenges your viewpoint. Whatever you want to interpret from the source material is your prerogative but claiming that people with opposing arguments rely on nothing but "headcanon" or are not reading the same manga as you is just willful ignorance.
I see little point in this thread when you're just shitposting away any meaningful discussion, I don't play that game.

Because you're not taking into account direct statements which already tell that Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo and Goku hardly went toe to toe against Boo.

Goku's first attack on Kid Boo is a Kamehameha, Goku never solely fought physical attacks only as he uses several ki blast at different points, all equally ineffective. Very doubtful Goku could kill anything if giving the chance since not even Kid Boo's blast that could easily oneshot Goku on Earth did s*** to himself and he was holding back on Earth no less. More than likely Goku was fucked against Kid Boo no matter what he did and simply out his league. Again, if Goku was anywhere near Kid Boo's level he would be frustrating him like Gotenks did Super Boo, but he wasn't which is why that never took place, the only thing that did frustrate Kid Boo like Super Boo was the Genki Dama, but that isn't representative of Goku's own battle power though.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:52 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am
But even if Only DaiKaioshin Powered him down Then He Powered him down to a Much higher level than What South Kaioshin would have made him stronger basically Super Boo Was powered down version of Kid Boo.

Vegeta and Goku both knew that bringing them won't do any better, that's why they went for Genki Dama. It makes no sense to choose risky solution for easy victory that too where the chances of success are very low, making billions to give power then take beatings from boo and Vegeta after getting revived didn't even have his full ki restored yet went to fight boo in base and when he was too tired to move he wanted Goku to kill both him and boo together, you think he has gone this brain dead that he wants to die with boo but not want Gohan's direct help.

If calling Gohan was easier, Goku would not have agreed to Vegeta's plan and found it incredibly dumb but Goku was satisfied with it.


You aren't even paying attention to statements and stick with your biased statements, if Kaioshin talks about Boo losing power after absorbing 2 Kaioshins and Vegeta took that source out, what will happen? Anyone unbiased can see that Pure Boo was stronger than Super Boo that's why they never called Gohan/Gotenks to kill him. It's such a simple narrative but no "Toriyama wanted to Goku-Vegeta to end pure Boo that's why he never made gotenks and Gohan kill them" :crazy:


Do you realize that Pure Boo fought ssj3 Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo yet was never tired and received 0 damage from fighting 3 of them and was having time of his life until Goku fired Super Genki-Dama.

Goku is also scared of the ki he senses from a holding back Kid Boo on Earth and even verbally mentions they lack the strength to counter him so where does that put Kid Boo in relation to Buff or Super Boo then?


Nothing implies Super Boo is stronger as well, no one mentioned about Boo's ki going down or anything.

It's impossible for Pure Boo to be stronger than Evil Boo if you gloss over statements which hint at him being stronger.

Super Boo was still under the influence of Dai Kaioshin, he was just an eviler manifestation of Fat Boo. He still had a sliver of a soul, which is why he spared Mr. Satan. When Fat Boo was removed from him, that got rid of all the Kaioshin influence and he became pure evil and insane. He powered up when he was transitioning from Buff Boo to Kid Boo.

So basically, yes, the influence of the Kaioshin (which Super Boo also had) weakened him. Absorbing Piccolo and the Saiyans didn't weaken him, but made him stronger.
literaly nothing use posted proves anything.

nothing absolutly nothing you posted puts kid buu above super buu at best somehwere close.
the grey buu was already >> fat buu.
super boo destroys fat buu , ssj3 goku vegeta lmao while either gotenks would beat super buu or ultimate gohan straight up destroy him.
lol at comparing vegeta and fat buu to ssj3 gotenks and FREAKING ulitmate gohan LOL.
goku actualy said the spirit bomb probably wont work and actualy thought about gettin gotenks and gohan as their “trump card“ instead spirit bomb.
so we have the character who knows how spirit bomb works and done it before doesnt think it will work and the character who never used it and doesnt even know how to learn it some odd reason sees it as their “trump card“.

he literaly gave no reason why he said no to goku about gotenks and gohan , wait actualy yes he did.
without knowing if the spirit bomb would work or not he said he wants humanity to take responsibility.
that is more than clear how toriyama wanted it to end.
lets even say kid buu is stronger than super buu.
are you arguing he is stronger to a point where f*cking ultimate gohan , gotenks ssj3 and ssj 3 goku cant beat him ?
I'm not biased.
the only one biased is the guy who cant see the obviouse.
you have to do mental gymnasitc to make it look like any of the statements you posted somehow interpret as if kid buu is stronger.
super buu > kid buu.
dont expect a reply becouse I'm tired of this.

Post Reply