Goku was fighting without without holding back and taking time to gather ki by help of someone else means he isn't capable of beating boo alone. Nowhere in the series anyone took time to gather ki to fire a full power blast, it's obviously because Pure Boo was not losing stamina and was way too quick with regeneration so he was trying to create a big blast but it was not supposed to work because he himself wasn't used to the form and it was a decision Goku took in heat of the battle because he was in a pinch. After killing Boo, he admitted that he needs to train which makes it clear that he wasn't very confident in killing Boo in ssj3. Also no, Goku never even gauged full power of Freeza and Vegeta when he fought him and him being shocked in middle of battle because of their power is proof that him challenging them alone wasn't because of him being sure of beating, but desire to test his power with strongest. Even in Saiyan arc there is a narration which talked about how the more deeper Goku is driven in corner, the more he feels excited due to his Saiyan Blood. Daizenshuu gives the same reason for why Goku wanted to fight Pure Boo alone because of his Saiyan blood stirring. He explicitly said that he challenged boo alone because of him showing off and not because ki being weaker, you can't fill things with baseless assumptions when character himself tells reason for his confidence.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Again nowhere does it prove that his power is weaker, he clearly does that for Saiyan pride because of what Vegeta told Goku in Boo's body that he would rather die than merge with him and him having reason to fight boo, that is him being unfused. Later on, him admitting that he was trying to show off thinking it would be cooler this way. Why do you think Toriyama made Vegeta crush earrings? It's because he wanted to get only solution out of the way. He outright says it's not suited for them and he's being selfish which answer it, he even said to Gohan-Boo that it's unfair to merge with others but with Pure Boo he was underestimating him.
I don't need to counter it when it makes no sense, you can't get someone's life force when they aren't connected and you can't power up right after the source is taken. If he took only Dai Kaioshin influence then it would make sense but no its the influence of both Kaioshins taken out together and his reverse transformation only stops permanently at Pure Boo not Buff Boo so it was Pure Boo's unrestricted ki because his composition was same as Buff Boo.
Gen-ki is ki in context, it's like you debating on it using Qi or Chi for Ki. It's same thing, they keep switching the words from start and this is straight from the series, when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki-Dama, he explicitly told that it's the Ki he gathered from Earth. Kuririn is unaware of it yet Goku uses Ki here, it was the first time Goku was explaining this to someone like Kaio Ken against Nappa yet he says Ki to him.
I was giving you a taste of your own medicine.
The fact still remains that he even uses Gotenks name as an option despite Gohan supposedly being enough and Gotenks not being reliable due to various risks his fusion carried yet he was mentioned.
Again, it would be out of character for him to sit through his son's power up on Kaioshin realm and when the weaker villain comes, him not calling him to one shot him instantly. That's like him choosing Trunks to fight Cell and not Gohan despite Gohan being more powerful. Goku even admitted he was overconfident but according to you, your words >> Toriyama. Are you sure you aren't the one relying on far fetched assumptions?
Because Dende and Kaioshins don't even monologue or talk about Gohan being second option even after Genki-Dama plan was failing. You think they want to perish with everyone but not call for Gohan's help?
What are you talking about? He lost the influence of both Kaioshins together, if you think he lost south Kaioshin's power then he also gained his own powers which went down from Dai Kaioshin. But even if Only DaiKaioshin Powered him down Then He Powered him down to a Much higher level than What South Kaioshin would have made him stronger, basically Super Boo Was powered down version of Kid Boo.
Kibitoshin says About His Power regained which was lowered by absorption and that's why he is worrying and is Shitting his pants not any other thing.
He is afriad of his Power more than anything else, it's clear as hell. Toriyama does this which every main villain after Saiyan arc.
He makes their final form comparatively smaller then a character commenting on his size and other character reacting total opposite.
With Freeza, Kuririn who can sense Ki also talked about his size and how he wasn't looking much threatening then Piccolo correcting him and freeza showing his power by killing dende by an quick beam which no one was able to see.
With Cell, Vegeta uses the exact same word he used for Boo to comment on his size then Kuririn talks about Cell being more powerful and Cell demonstrates that by taking Vegeta's kick head on.
It's same thing here.
Toriyama wanted to show a smaller Boo so the characters get happy and hopeful that now the opponent is more manageable only to be proven utterly wrong later. After Goku said they can now manage something against this Boo, Toriyama starts proving that sentiment wrong. First Kaioshin gives Pure Boo’s backstory to showcase how dangerous this new Boo is and how his power was in fact previously lowered through the Kaioshin absorptions. Then he proceeds to have kid Boo demonstrating his immense power by unleashing a planet busting attack that Goku just watches in awe, flat out stating that he and Vegeta are unable to do anything against it and they scared run away from the planet instead of attempting to stop the attack and save the planet from annihilation. Even though he had ssj3 in his pocket and not once he ran from a Planet busting attack in the show (Vegeta's Gyallic Ho in Saiyan arc or Cell's Kamehameha at earth which Goku countered by making Cell change the direction/angle) and we already saw that big Planet busting attacks can be countered by someone if they are capable of countering them but Goku flat out starts running away from it despite both Earth and his kids being in risk. Goku isn't dumb enough to run away from a blast if he thinks he stands no chance against it no matter how big the blast maybe.
Akira Toriyama Confirms his direct intentions of have the "small and weak looking characters be the strongest" which is affirmed by how he showed Goku and Vegeta underestimating Pure Boo only to fall on their heads. He didn't change his thoughts as he himself says it's been 30 years and he still holds the same idea:
Q: Goku and Arale both have a huge gap between how they look and what they’re capable of.
=> Yeah. I prefer to put most of the focus on the story, so I gave them plain designs, but beyond that I think it boils down to the idea that it’s more interesting to have the weak-looking, plain guys be strong. With Goku, he started out just being a straight-up monkey. Then I thought about it some more and made him a human, but Torishima-san said that he needed to have something to set him apart, so I gave him a tail… but it just kept getting in the way. (laughs)
Q: From the midpoint onward, it became routine for the enemies to transform.
=> It all started with Freeza. I didn’t start out with any plans to have him transform of course, but midway through I thought it might be cool to make it look like a bluff and then have him transform for real. Probably at that point I also thought of giving him a sleek design in the end. I’m in the habit of giving characters progressively more complex and tough-looking forms, then finally making them really sleek. After all, it’s awful drawing them once they get all complex. (laughs) Complex guys are terrible when you have to draw them for weeks on end… Cell was a ton of work, with those darn spots of his. (laughs)
Q: One part of the series’ version of the world are all of the gods that turn up. The fact that they’re also aliens is distinctive as well.
=> I always turn to God in times of trouble. (laughs) Gods and aliens and other unknown beings like that make it easy to craft the story. After all, gods can do practically anything. I have my gods be straightforward and not too fussy, so that children can feel comfortable with them. The reason I give gods attendants… Well, I guess it’s because important people always need butlers, and it’s easy to develop the story through conversations.
Q: So they’re mainly there to provide exposition?
=> Yeah, like with Kibito I gave him a stern face, but it turns out he’s really nothing special. Pretty much all of my strong-looking guys turn out to be weak. I guess I like inverting expectations."
Pure Boo is a kid version of Evil Boo too so it makes even more sense as to why he was on purpose drawn smaller, Vegeta talked about him shrinking as in Evil Boo turning into a kid and everyone getting excited.
The obvious narrative intent for making Boo (Pure Boo) physically smaller (alongside the implicit assumption that he should have been weakened due to the removal of a powerful absorption (Good Buu)) was to have contrast of emotions and subversion of expectations.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”
Boo: “Sto-stop it! Do-don’t touch that! Hands off!”
Vegeta: “Kukkukku…You seem even more panicked than I expected…Apparently it will be quite unfavorable for you…”
Boo: “Th-that’s the only one you mustn’t tear out…! I-I’ll stop being me!”
Goku: “’I’ll stop being me’…?”
Vegeta: “That sounds interesting…Did you really think I’d listen to you?”
Toriyama even went out of his way to achieve this effect as logically removing Good Boo from Evil Boo should have resulted to him reverting back to the Grey Boo we saw earlier. That's typical Toriyama trope, he subverts expectations and that's exactly why he made Vegeta and viewers assume that removing Good Boo will weaken him only for Kaioshin to tell that Pure Boo lost power through absorptions which means Vegeta took out the source of his power getting restricted. It fits perfectly, you're just not willing to accept it.
Tsufuru wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:50 pm
Ripper 30 wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am
Tsufuru wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:14 am
they were dead.
your argument is no better than me saying toriyama made kid buu kill them so goku can fight the last battle.
if toriyama would have wanted some1 else to finsh final battle he would have done it.
Super buu > kid buu.
gohan > goku.
nothing states or implies something else in the manga.
Man, what are you talking about? After Goku lost ssj3 they started to rely on dende only. They were an option, them being dead doesn't matter because they had Namekian Dragon Balls either way, if Gohan was enough they would have instantly wished him to the location and not chosen Genki Dama.
Kid Boo > Super Boo is a fact, atleast in base. The absorptions of both Kaioshins lowered Boo's powers and Vegeta took them out which resulted in Kid boo, is it that hard to interpret? Even 10 year-old Japanese kids can see it. That's the whole reason why Kibitoshin told that Kid Boo got weaker by absorptions.
iirc only one kaioshin made him weaker.
and its impossible for goku to be stronger than gotenks ssj3 and gohan.
kid buu => goku ssj3.
thank you for proving the point about toriyama wanting goku to end it with a spirit bomb.
vegeta already wanted gotenks and gohan , why didnt he wan to get them when goku told him after restoring every1? he said he want humanity to take responsibility twice.
he didnt try to give a reason or anything he straight up said no and than said he wants humanity to take responsibility.
yh , clearly toriyama wanted it to end with the spirit bomb even when he could have made them get gohan and gotenks and beat the shit out of kid buu and wipe him out with a triple atack.
gotenks ssj3 plus gohan plus goku ssj3 would have destroyed kid buu with the utmost ease.
goku already stated they have no chance against super buu before.
nothing implies kid buu is stronger than super buu.
its impossible for him to be that strong.
its nowhere close to be a fact how you claim.
at best and i mean realy at best you can argue he is close to super buu in power.
But even if Only DaiKaioshin Powered him down Then He Powered him down to a Much higher level than What South Kaioshin would have made him stronger basically Super Boo Was powered down version of Kid Boo.
Vegeta and Goku both knew that bringing them won't do any better, that's why they went for Genki Dama. It makes no sense to choose risky solution for easy victory that too where the chances of success are very low, making billions to give power then take beatings from boo and Vegeta after getting revived didn't even have his full ki restored yet went to fight boo in base and when he was too tired to move he wanted Goku to kill both him and boo together, you think he has gone this brain dead that he wants to die with boo but not want Gohan's direct help.
If calling Gohan was easier, Goku would not have agreed to Vegeta's plan and found it incredibly dumb but Goku was satisfied with it.
You aren't even paying attention to statements and stick with your biased statements, if Kaioshin talks about Boo losing power after absorbing 2 Kaioshins and Vegeta took that source out, what will happen? Anyone unbiased can see that Pure Boo was stronger than Super Boo that's why they never called Gohan/Gotenks to kill him. It's such a simple narrative but no "Toriyama wanted to Goku-Vegeta to end pure Boo that's why he never made gotenks and Gohan kill them"
Do you realize that Pure Boo fought ssj3 Goku, Vegeta and Good Boo yet was never tired and received 0 damage from fighting 3 of them and was having time of his life until Goku fired Super Genki-Dama.
Goku is also scared of the ki he senses from a holding back Kid Boo on Earth and even verbally mentions they lack the strength to counter him so where does that put Kid Boo in relation to Buff or Super Boo then?
Nothing implies Super Boo is stronger as well, no one mentioned about Boo's ki going down or anything.
It's impossible for Pure Boo to be stronger than Evil Boo if you gloss over statements which hint at him being stronger.
Super Boo was still under the influence of Dai Kaioshin, he was just an eviler manifestation of Fat Boo. He still had a sliver of a soul, which is why he spared Mr. Satan. When Fat Boo was removed from him, that got rid of all the Kaioshin influence and he became pure evil and insane. He powered up when he was transitioning from Buff Boo to Kid Boo.
So basically, yes, the influence of the Kaioshin (which Super Boo also had) weakened him. Absorbing Piccolo and the Saiyans didn't weaken him, but made him stronger.
theherodjl wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:03 am
Ripper 30 wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:53 pm
You are reading a different manga.
I am not, you're simply choosing to be disagreeable with anyone who challenges your viewpoint. Whatever you want to interpret from the source material is your prerogative but claiming that people with opposing arguments rely on nothing but "headcanon" or are not reading the same manga as you is just willful ignorance.
I see little point in this thread when you're just shitposting away any meaningful discussion, I don't play that game.
Because you're not taking into account direct statements which already tell that Pure Boo is stronger than Evil Boo and Goku hardly went toe to toe against Boo.
Goku's first attack on Kid Boo is a Kamehameha, Goku never solely fought physical attacks only as he uses several ki blast at different points, all equally ineffective. Very doubtful Goku could kill anything if giving the chance since not even Kid Boo's blast that could easily oneshot Goku on Earth did s*** to himself and he was holding back on Earth no less. More than likely Goku was fucked against Kid Boo no matter what he did and simply out his league. Again, if Goku was anywhere near Kid Boo's level he would be frustrating him like Gotenks did Super Boo, but he wasn't which is why that never took place, the only thing that did frustrate Kid Boo like Super Boo was the Genki Dama, but that isn't representative of Goku's own battle power though.