Piccolo (fighting against #20)

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ahill1
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Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ahill1 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:42 pm

So this is Piccolo post his three years preparation training for the androids. Before he fused with Kami into a unique single warrior like he once was. How strong do you have him?

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Lionel » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 pm

Stronger than Freeza and Goku as he first touched down on Earth following his recuperation on Yardrat. While I believe he is weaker than the Super Saiyans, he's still respectably in the same league as them with a power level that puts him in the margin of being a usable asset. If you want a hard numerical value, I don't find it unreasonable to believe that Piccolo could have been 2/3rds of SSJ Vegeta's strength (the strongest Z-fighter at the time).

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:01 am

Stronger than 50% Frieza, but weaker than 100%.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by BWri » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:22 am

There's enough evidence to imply he's much stronger than SSJ Trunks from before the time skip who himself was well above a powered up Namek Frieza. He was confident he could take the Androids that gave SSJ Trunks trouble and even after seeing Goku and Vegeta fight, he was confident enough that he could take the androids. I'd put him at the third strongest behind Goku and Vegeta at this time.

I used to always think Trunks was stronger, but there's not enough feats or statements on his side at this point. Before his merger with Kami, Piccolo took multiple direct blows from #17 who was stronger than #18, while Trunks took one then took an indirect blow from #18 which laid him out.
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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Vertical » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:19 am

[Initial Appearance] SSJ Trunks < [Post-Training] Piccolo < [Second Appearance] SSJ Trunks

Piccolo's confidence and questioning of the Androids makes no sense without him being, at the very least, superior to [Initial Appearance] SSJ Trunks.

The Super Saiyans are still grouped above Piccolo during the Android encounter.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ahill1 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:53 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:01 am
Stronger than 50% Frieza, but weaker than 100%.
Any reason for having him weaker than Freeza?

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:01 pm

ahill1 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:53 pm
dragon boss z wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:01 am
Stronger than 50% Frieza, but weaker than 100%.
Any reason for having him weaker than Freeza?
He didn't really do anything to lead me to believe he was definitely stronger, and since Piccolo was so far behind full power Frieza I find it hard to believe he surpassed him with three years of training. Even after a full year of training post Namek, he was still fodder to suppressed Mecha Frieza. When it was revealed Gero didn't follow them to Namek, Piccolo said they were screwed because of that, which would imply Namek top tiers are above 19 and 20, as if they weren't it would make the statement look a bit silly. Not to mention right after that 19 started getting beaten up by a sick ssj Goku. Later in the arc after Goku recovers, Krillin asks Goku if he is excited to fight enemies stronger than Frieza (17, 18, 16, and Cell) but Goku already fought 19 at that point, so that would imply Frieza was still the strongest fought up until that point. Yes, Piccolo was above 19 and 20 as well, but we don't know by how much, and Piccolo was only referred to as being strong for not being a ssj, and not actually stated to be as strong as a ssj. Piccolo could possibly be on par or even above 100% Frieza, I just haven't seen anything to prove Piccolo is above him.

tldr: It doesn't make sense for Piccolo to get so strong so fast and there is no definite proof that puts him above Frieza so I have him below.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Vertical » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:56 am

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo's question "Or have we grown too strong?" cannot be asked unless he is at least stronger than [Initial] SSJ Trunks... it simply would not be a possibility.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by TobyS » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 pm

The trouble is, is that Tenshinhan is impressed by sick Goku having seen post Yardat Goku.

So we have hypothetical healthy Goku > Piccolo > Android's > sick Goku > Yardat Goku > Freeza
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:01 am

TobyS wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 pm
The trouble is, is that Tenshinhan is impressed by sick Goku having seen post Yardat Goku.

So we have hypothetical healthy Goku > Piccolo > Android's > sick Goku > Yardat Goku > Freeza
Correct

Tier 1- Goku, Vegeta and Trunks

This three are strong enough that everything up to Android 18 is fodder.

Tier 2- Piccolo

Can smack around Android 20 but isn't as strong as the Super saiyans.

Tier 3- Android 20, 19, Sick Goku

The way I see it Goku even sick would have beat 19 if he couldn't absorb ki. Also if Goku had his sick power and wasn't getting weaker I feel he would have beat any version of 19 or 20.

Tier 4: Yardart Goku, Trunks(Mecha)

Trunks thinks the two of them would be powerless against the Androids, Vegeta and Piccolo both say while 19 and 20 weren't as bad as the rumors made them they would still have to be strong enough to beat or at least give Goku and Trunks a lot of difficulty. Tien has also seen these two SSJs and yet the sick Goku feels to be even greater than this.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by TobyS » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:56 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:01 am
TobyS wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 pm
The trouble is, is that Tenshinhan is impressed by sick Goku having seen post Yardat Goku.

So we have hypothetical healthy Goku > Piccolo > Android's > sick Goku > Yardat Goku > Freeza
Correct

Tier 1- Goku, Vegeta and Trunks

This three are strong enough that everything up to Android 18 is fodder.

Tier 2- Piccolo

Can smack around Android 20 but isn't as strong as the Super saiyans.

Tier 3- Android 20, 19, Sick Goku

The way I see it Goku even sick would have beat 19 if he couldn't absorb ki. Also if Goku had his sick power and wasn't getting weaker I feel he would have beat any version of 19 or 20.

Tier 4: Yardart Goku, Trunks(Mecha)

Trunks thinks the two of them would be powerless against the Androids, Vegeta and Piccolo both say while 19 and 20 weren't as bad as the rumors made them they would still have to be strong enough to beat or at least give Goku and Trunks a lot of difficulty. Tien has also seen these two SSJs and yet the sick Goku feels to be even greater than this.
I guess there's some wiggle room cuz Goku gets sicker has his energy absorbed and 19 powers up. So 19 post absorption could be much stronger than 20 who only got Yamcha and some humans....

But ultimately Piccolo never says “damn 20 you are even weaker than Trunks and Goku used to be, heck even Freeza. He notes they seem weaker than Trunks warned but his wording implies his increased strength is more the reason for the changed outcome than the androids being over rated....
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:41 pm

TobyS wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:56 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:01 am
TobyS wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 pm
The trouble is, is that Tenshinhan is impressed by sick Goku having seen post Yardat Goku.

So we have hypothetical healthy Goku > Piccolo > Android's > sick Goku > Yardat Goku > Freeza
Correct

Tier 1- Goku, Vegeta and Trunks

This three are strong enough that everything up to Android 18 is fodder.

Tier 2- Piccolo

Can smack around Android 20 but isn't as strong as the Super saiyans.

Tier 3- Android 20, 19, Sick Goku

The way I see it Goku even sick would have beat 19 if he couldn't absorb ki. Also if Goku had his sick power and wasn't getting weaker I feel he would have beat any version of 19 or 20.

Tier 4: Yardart Goku, Trunks(Mecha)

Trunks thinks the two of them would be powerless against the Androids, Vegeta and Piccolo both say while 19 and 20 weren't as bad as the rumors made them they would still have to be strong enough to beat or at least give Goku and Trunks a lot of difficulty. Tien has also seen these two SSJs and yet the sick Goku feels to be even greater than this.
I guess there's some wiggle room cuz Goku gets sicker has his energy absorbed and 19 powers up. So 19 post absorption could be much stronger than 20 who only got Yamcha and some humans....

But ultimately Piccolo never says “damn 20 you are even weaker than Trunks and Goku used to be, heck even Freeza. He notes they seem weaker than Trunks warned but his wording implies his increased strength is more the reason for the changed outcome than the androids being over rated....
Vegeta saying not as bad as the rumors tells me that 19 and 20 would have beat Yardrat Goku and Trunks but that there no whear near as strong as they were suppose to be. Trunks believes that a Super saiyan has no chance against them and that training for 3 years Goku will still have a hard time.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:30 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:01 pm
ahill1 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:53 pm
dragon boss z wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:01 am
Stronger than 50% Frieza, but weaker than 100%.
Any reason for having him weaker than Freeza?
He didn't really do anything to lead me to believe he was definitely stronger, and since Piccolo was so far behind full power Frieza I find it hard to believe he surpassed him with three years of training. Even after a full year of training post Namek, he was still fodder to suppressed Mecha Frieza. When it was revealed Gero didn't follow them to Namek, Piccolo said they were screwed because of that, which would imply Namek top tiers are above 19 and 20, as if they weren't it would make the statement look a bit silly. Not to mention right after that 19 started getting beaten up by a sick ssj Goku. Later in the arc after Goku recovers, Krillin asks Goku if he is excited to fight enemies stronger than Frieza (17, 18, 16, and Cell) but Goku already fought 19 at that point, so that would imply Frieza was still the strongest fought up until that point. Yes, Piccolo was above 19 and 20 as well, but we don't know by how much, and Piccolo was only referred to as being strong for not being a ssj, and not actually stated to be as strong as a ssj. Piccolo could possibly be on par or even above 100% Frieza, I just haven't seen anything to prove Piccolo is above him.

tldr: It doesn't make sense for Piccolo to get so strong so fast and there is no definite proof that puts him above Frieza so I have him below.
Both A19 and Dr.Gero were portrayed and hyped as being stronger than any previous foes, and Piccolo stomped Dr. Gero. Piccolo was even compared to the SSJs by Krillin when he fought Gero. So obviously Piccolo even before fusing with Kami was stronger than anyone from the Namek saga and even early SSJ1 Trunks when he killed Mecha Freeza.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:59 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:30 pm
Both A19 and Dr.Gero were portrayed and hyped as being stronger than any previous foes, and Piccolo stomped Dr. Gero.
No, the androids from Trunk's future were hyped to be above any previous foe. When they started fighting they stated 19 and 20 were weaker thane expected.
Piccolo was even compared to the SSJs by Krillin when he fought Gero.
He said he was strong for not being ssj. That's like saying a girl is strong for not being a guy. That doesn't mean they are as strong as a guy, it means they are stronger than most girls.
So obviously Piccolo even before fusing with Kami was stronger than anyone from the Namek saga and even early SSJ1 Trunks when he killed Mecha Freeza.
No, it's not obvious and you used faulty logic to come to this conclusion. Piccolo may be that strong, but nothing proves he is. It's all speculation.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:04 pm

TobyS wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 pm
The trouble is, is that Tenshinhan is impressed by sick Goku having seen post Yardat Goku.

So we have hypothetical healthy Goku > Piccolo > Android's > sick Goku > Yardat Goku > Freeza
Tien never saw Goku actually fight for real, and he said something along the lines of "so this is what a ssj is like up close". There was no indication that version of Goku was stronger than Yadrat Goku, and even if he was it was only at the very start of the fight, he quickly declined.
Vertical wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:56 am
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo's question "Or have we grown too strong?" cannot be asked unless he is at least stronger than [Initial] SSJ Trunks... it simply would not be a possibility.
No, that just means he has no idea. Piccolo implied the change in the future could have made the androids weaker.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ahill1 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:57 pm

If he has no idea, doesn't that mean he has to have surpassed Trunks, at least? Because if he didn't, the answer would be clear: they simply aren't as strong as we were told.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Vertical » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:56 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:04 pm
Vertical wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:56 am
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo's question "Or have we grown too strong?" cannot be asked unless he is at least stronger than [Initial] SSJ Trunks... it simply would not be a possibility.
No, that just means he has no idea. Piccolo implied the change in the future could have made the androids weaker.
That is incorrect. After stating that the future had changed, Piccolo poised two questions as an attempt to justify why:
"Was is that you weren't as strong as we thought?"
"Or have we grown too strong?"
He quite literally cannot question that second possibility without being, at the very least, stronger than SSJ Trunks.

Piccolo and the others had a vague expectation of the Androids but at a bare minimum it was greater than SSJ Trunks. How could he say "Or have we grown too strong?" if he was below that level? It simply would not make any sense.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:01 pm

Vertical wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:56 am
That is incorrect. After stating that the future had changed, Piccolo poised two questions as an attempt to justify why:
"Was is that you weren't as strong as we thought?"
"Or have we grown too strong?"
He quite literally cannot question that second possibility without being, at the very least, stronger than SSJ Trunks.

Piccolo and the others had a vague expectation of the Androids but at a bare minimum it was greater than SSJ Trunks. How could he say "Or have we grown too strong?" if he was below that level? It simply would not make any sense.
There are a multitude of explanations.
Maybe Piccolo thought the androids only beat Trunks because it was 2v1, maybe he thought they only got so strong because of their energy absorption.
Also lets not forget that even if they didn't know about the androids they still would have trained for those 3 years anyways. So maybe Piccolo was just surprised that they would win so easily even with knowledge. Just because he knew the androids were coming doesn't mean he thought he got so much stronger he could win easily.

There just isn't enough info to say for sure. And like I said, Krillin later implied to Goku Frieza was the strongest he fought, and that was after Goku fought 19.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ruler9871 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:01 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:59 pm

No, the androids from Trunk's future were hyped to be above any previous foe. When they started fighting they stated 19 and 20 were weaker thane expected.
They didn't say that. They said that their 3 years of training in advance made these Androids less of a problem
dragon boss z wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:59 pm
He said he was strong for not being ssj. That's like saying a girl is strong for not being a guy. That doesn't mean they are as strong as a guy, it means they are stronger than most girls.
Krillin literally said that he was as strong as a SSJ. You are twisting his words.

dragon boss z wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:59 pm
No, it's not obvious and you used faulty logic to come to this conclusion. Piccolo may be that strong, but nothing proves he is. It's all speculation.
Nothing in the series suggest that Gero and A19 are weaker than Mecha Freeza. You are using the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:45 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:01 pm
They didn't say that. They said that their 3 years of training in advance made these Androids less of a problem
Piccolo was wondering if the androids were weaker than they originally thought.
Krillin literally said that he was as strong as a SSJ. You are twisting his words.
No, you are the one twisting his words...
All you have to do is look it up instead of saying something variably false.
Nothing in the series suggest that Gero and A19 are weaker than Mecha Freeza. You are using the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy.
Mecha Frieza was suppressed, it was flat out stated by Gohan. 100% Frieza was the strongest we ever saw him. So yes, I agree 19 is stronger than the suppressed Mecha Frieza and King Cold we saw.
He may have been stronger than 100% Frieza, or maybe he surpassed Frieza after absorbing Goku's kamehameha, but there just isn't enough evidence to outright prove it.
And Krillin asked Goku if he was excited or nervous to fight someone stronger than Frieza, and this was after he fought 19. So why would he ask him if he is nervous to fight someone stronger than the second strongest person he fought?
I wouldn't say that's enough to prove my point, but it's enough to show there is evidence supporting it.

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