Piccolo (fighting against #20)

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ahill1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:25 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Maybe Piccolo thought the androids only beat Trunks because it was 2v1,
No, Trunks stated in the original manga that even fighting one on one he was barely able to escape alive. They were expecting enemies > Trunks at the very least.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:59 pm

ahill1 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:25 pm
dragon boss z wrote:Maybe Piccolo thought the androids only beat Trunks because it was 2v1,
No, Trunks stated in the original manga that even fighting one on one he was barely able to escape alive. They were expecting enemies > Trunks at the very least.
Yeah, but Piccolo may have thought Trunks was over exaggerating, or like Piccolo mentioned the androids they were fighting could have been weaker than the ones Trunks fought due to the future change, and they were. And like I showed multiple times above, Krillin implies Frieza was the strongest enemy Goku fought up to that point, and that was after the 19 fight. You could say Krillin said Frieza because it was a tougher fight, but it's enough evidence to call into Piccolo's statement, which by itslelf is already shady as he gives the possibility of the androids just being weaker than they thought. So what else do we have to go by? Feats. And Frieza just has a better performance than 19 does. 19's face was permanently damaged by a kick from base Vegeta, while Frieza is stated to be stronger than post Buu saga base saiyans.
Just to be clear I think Piccolo being above namek ssj Goku is a possibility, and there is nothing wrong with the opinion. It just isn't a fact like some are making it out to be.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ahill1 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:15 am

dragon boss z wrote:Yeah, but Piccolo may have thought Trunks was over exaggerating
No reason whatsoever for Piccolo to think Trunks was exaggerating. Were this the case, we'd have this expressed by Piccolo. Piccolo took Trunks' words with a tune of seriousness and dismissed Yamcha's words of this all being a set up.
Krillin implies Frieza was the strongest enemy Goku fought up to that point, and that was after the 19 fight
Read the quote. Kuririn compared Cell to Freeza. Saying this thing (Cell) is even more powerful than Freeza. He didn't mention the androids #18 and #17 either, who were already way more powerful than Freeza. So it's possible Kuririn was merely comparing the to-be villain with the former one.

As for Piccolo also opening up the possibility of them simply having been weaker than forethought, maybe this speaks more to the easy in which Piccolo took out #20... He expected a more even, disputed, rough fight... But 20 is still strong enough for him not to be sure of which hypothesis to pick.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:29 am

ahill1 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:15 am
Read the quote. Kuririn compared Cell to Freeza. Saying this thing (Cell) is even more powerful than Freeza. He didn't mention the androids #18 and #17 either, who were already way more powerful than Freeza. So it's possible Kuririn was merely comparing the to-be villain with the former one.
Yeah, but why would he compare Cell to the second strongest guy Goku fought? It would be like when Buu showed up if someone asked if Goku was afraid to fight someone stronger than Frieza, it wouldn't make sense to say Frieza, it would make more sense to say Cell at that point. You could argue Krillin said Frieza, because he was the last big bad, while 19 was more of a side bad guy, and that's the reason I agree it's not definitive proof. But it's enough to call it into question. You could argue 19<Frieza<Piccolo though.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Vertical » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:20 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:01 pm
There are a multitude of explanations.
You're missing the point.

I agree that there are a number of possible explanations... Piccolo is simply listing some of those possibilities... but Piccolo cannot logically consider the possibility of them having grown too strong unless he were beyond [Initial] SSJ Trunks (the absolute minimum expectation for the Androids). That could not be a possibility if he was still weaker than Trunks.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:36 am

Vegeta says the rumors weren't as bad not that the rumors were false. That implies 19 and 20 would give Goku and Trunks a good fight before 3 years.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:45 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:01 pm
They didn't say that. They said that their 3 years of training in advance made these Androids less of a problem
Piccolo was wondering if the androids were weaker than they originally thought.
Krillin literally said that he was as strong as a SSJ. You are twisting his words.
No, you are the one twisting his words...
All you have to do is look it up instead of saying something variably false.
Nothing in the series suggest that Gero and A19 are weaker than Mecha Freeza. You are using the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy.
Mecha Frieza was suppressed, it was flat out stated by Gohan. 100% Frieza was the strongest we ever saw him. So yes, I agree 19 is stronger than the suppressed Mecha Frieza and King Cold we saw.
He may have been stronger than 100% Frieza, or maybe he surpassed Frieza after absorbing Goku's kamehameha, but there just isn't enough evidence to outright prove it.
And Krillin asked Goku if he was excited or nervous to fight someone stronger than Frieza, and this was after he fought 19. So why would he ask him if he is nervous to fight someone stronger than the second strongest person he fought?
I wouldn't say that's enough to prove my point, but it's enough to show there is evidence supporting it.
1. What Krillin was basically saying in that scene was "how can he be that strong without transforming?". He wouldn't have made that comment if Piccolo wasn't anywhere near the SSJ1's level (logic 101). He wasn't downplaying Piccolo.

2. Nowhere in that manga page did Gohan say that Mecha Freeza was suppressed. You are making stuff up. And Mecha Freeza was flat out stated in the series itself and in multiple guides that he is stronger than he was on Namek. So that downplay doesn't work.

3. A19 & Gero's energy can't be sensed, so obviously Krillin doesn't have a clear idea how strong they are (but he DOES know how strong the SSJs & Freeza are). So your argument about Krillin's question to Goku falls flat.

Literally everying in the narrative points to Early Android arc Piccolo > Z Freeza. It obvious.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:04 am

Vertical wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:20 am
dragon boss z wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:01 pm
There are a multitude of explanations.
You're missing the point.

I agree that there are a number of possible explanations... Piccolo is simply listing some of those possibilities... but Piccolo cannot logically consider the possibility of them having grown too strong unless he were beyond [Initial] SSJ Trunks (the absolute minimum expectation for the Androids). That could not be a possibility if he was still weaker than Trunks.
But Piccolo doesn’t have a scouter, he really has no way to know for sure how he compares to Trunks. He can sense general ki size, but that’s not something we can go on for sure. I agree what your saying makes sense, but I highly doubt Toriyama meant that statement to prove Piccolo was stronger than Trunks. Piccolo even said that Gero screwed himself for not tracking them to Namek, which wouldn’t make much sense if Gero actually made himself stronger than any Namek tier, as that would mean he was only screwed because they knew the future.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:24 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 am
1. What Krillin was basically saying in that scene was "how can he be that strong without transforming?". He wouldn't have made that comment if Piccolo wasn't anywhere near the SSJ1's level (logic 101). He wasn't downplaying Piccolo.
I agree, Piccolo was leagues above anyone who wasn’t a ssj. I’m saying the it’s not proof he is actually as strong as one, just pretty close. 50% Frieza could also be said to be strong for not being a ssj.
2. Nowhere in that manga page did Gohan say that Mecha Freeza was suppressed. You are making stuff up. And Mecha Freeza was flat out stated in the series itself and in multiple guides that he is stronger than he was on Namek. So that downplay doesn't work.
I literally just posted the scan where Gohan tells Yamcha Frieza can get much stronger than they are sensing, meaning he was obviously suppressed. This is the second post in a row you posted something varifiably valse, but this time you did it after I already posted the scan so it’s worse. There are arguments against what I said, like Frieza may have powered up later against Trunks, but you just denying things that happen in the manga without actually doing your research or just looking at the scans I post just wastes both of our time.
3. A19 & Gero's energy can't be sensed, so obviously Krillin doesn't have a clear idea how strong they are (but he DOES know how strong the SSJs & Freeza are). So your argument about Krillin's question to Goku falls flat.
Which is why I already agreed the statement wasn’t enough to prove my point.
Literally everying in the narrative points to Early Android arc Piccolo > Z Freeza. It obvious.
Not really. It’s implied Piccolo is getting close to ssj level, but so was Frieza. If he became stronger than Frieza that is something someone would be likely to mention. It’s definitely possibly Piccolo was stronger, and even if he was weaker he could still possibly win due to being a better fighter, but there just isn’t outright proof of anything.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:12 am

I think the 7th Daizenshuu mentions that those with double or more of an opponent's ki would enable them to resist attacks without sustaining damage. We can see how an SSJ Vegeta with his aura fully projected was momentarily reeling backwards from #19's punch with a small amount of blood being drawn at the mouth. It's not much but there appears to be enough indication from this scene that #19 was more than half of Vegeta's power. By some unknown quantity #20 was even stronger, who Piccolo had at his mercy during their brief fight some time later.

If anything 2/3rds of SSJ Vegeta's power may have been an understatement. It depends on the exact percentile amount that #19 quantified as in relation to Vegeta's full strength. You would have to account for #20 being stronger than #19 and then there's Piccolo who is powerful enough to easily avoid attacks and make a battle with the superior artificial fighter one-sided.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:05 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:24 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 am
1. What Krillin was basically saying in that scene was "how can he be that strong without transforming?". He wouldn't have made that comment if Piccolo wasn't anywhere near the SSJ1's level (logic 101). He wasn't downplaying Piccolo.
I agree, Piccolo was leagues above anyone who wasn’t a ssj. I’m saying the it’s not proof he is actually as strong as one, just pretty close. 50% Frieza could also be said to be strong for not being a ssj.
2. Nowhere in that manga page did Gohan say that Mecha Freeza was suppressed. You are making stuff up. And Mecha Freeza was flat out stated in the series itself and in multiple guides that he is stronger than he was on Namek. So that downplay doesn't work.
I literally just posted the scan where Gohan tells Yamcha Frieza can get much stronger than they are sensing, meaning he was obviously suppressed. This is the second post in a row you posted something varifiably valse, but this time you did it after I already posted the scan so it’s worse. There are arguments against what I said, like Frieza may have powered up later against Trunks, but you just denying things that happen in the manga without actually doing your research or just looking at the scans I post just wastes both of our time.
3. A19 & Gero's energy can't be sensed, so obviously Krillin doesn't have a clear idea how strong they are (but he DOES know how strong the SSJs & Freeza are). So your argument about Krillin's question to Goku falls flat.
Which is why I already agreed the statement wasn’t enough to prove my point.
Literally everying in the narrative points to Early Android arc Piccolo > Z Freeza. It obvious.
Not really. It’s implied Piccolo is getting close to ssj level, but so was Frieza. If he became stronger than Frieza that is something someone would be likely to mention. It’s definitely possibly Piccolo was stronger, and even if he was weaker he could still possibly win due to being a better fighter, but there just isn’t outright proof of anything.
1. If Piccolo could beat up Dr. Gero (who is better than A19) even after getting his energy stolen then logically his is on par with the SSJs. Idk why you are in denial.

2. Nowhere in the manga page you posted did Gohan tell Yamcha that. Now you are just bullshiting smh.

3. Freeza was obviously not "close" to SSJ level if he could be that easily beaten by SSJ Trunks in his 1st appearance.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:01 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:05 pm
1. If Piccolo could beat up Dr. Gero (who is better than A19) even after getting his energy stolen then logically his is on par with the SSJs. Idk why you are in denial.
Piccolo said that was because he raises his energy in bursts when attacking.
2. Nowhere in the manga page you posted did Gohan tell Yamcha that. Now you are just bullshiting smh.
I LITERALLY POSTED THE SCAN FOR YOU ALREADY!
Image
GOHAN FLAT OUT SAYS FRIEZA CAN GET WAY STRONGER, DO YOU HAVE A READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEM?
3. Freeza was obviously not "close" to SSJ level if he could be that easily beaten by SSJ Trunks in his 1st appearance.
He was suppressed and taken off guard while cocky.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:19 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:01 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:05 pm
1. If Piccolo could beat up Dr. Gero (who is better than A19) even after getting his energy stolen then logically his is on par with the SSJs. Idk why you are in denial.
Piccolo said that was because he raises his energy in bursts when attacking.
2. Nowhere in the manga page you posted did Gohan tell Yamcha that. Now you are just bullshiting smh.
I LITERALLY POSTED THE SCAN FOR YOU ALREADY!
Image
GOHAN FLAT OUT SAYS FRIEZA CAN GET WAY STRONGER, DO YOU HAVE A READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEM?
3. Freeza was obviously not "close" to SSJ level if he could be that easily beaten by SSJ Trunks in his 1st appearance.
He was suppressed and taken off guard while cocky.
1. Regardless if he raises his energy in bursts when attacking (which is something nearly everyone in the series does), he would still have to be SSJ level in order for him to be that strong, since that's how DB works.

2. Mecha Freeza was definitely not suppressed when he fought SSJ Trunks. He use a Death Ball and 3 other major attacks before dying.

3. I didn't see the bottom left with Gohan and Yamcha.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:50 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:19 pm
1. Regardless if he raises his energy in bursts when attacking (which is something nearly everyone in the series does), he would still have to be SSJ level in order for him to be that strong, since that's how DB works.
But clearly Gero didn't even absorb enough energy to match Piccolo, so it really doesn't matter.
2. Mecha Freeza was definitely not suppressed when he fought SSJ Trunks. He use a Death Ball and 3 other major attacks before dying.
There are a few things wrong with this argument.
1. Those attacks were anime only. In the manga Frieza just shot off one regular ki blast, and then was killed in a surprise attack.
2. Frieza used more than 3 attacks against ssj Goku before finally deciding to go full power, and that was after Goku asked him to. It is not and has never been in character for Frieza to go right in to full power.
3. It takes time for Frieza to go full power, and when he does he gets buff. The most we've seen him go without needing to charge or go buff is 70%. Maybe his mecha form changes that, but it is never stated.

I agree Trunks is clearly stronger than even full power mecha Frieza and would have still won regardless, but Trunks shouldn't have been much stronger than Namek Goku, he is just more serious and has sword. He went for the kill while Frieza was cocky.
3. I didn't see the bottom left with Gohan and Yamcha.
That's fine, just don't call me out for bullshitting, just tell me you don't see it and I will try to direct you to it.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Piccolo_Daima » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:48 pm

Piccolo destroyed Android 20 with ease, he didn't use his full power, so he was as strong as a super sayan at that point. Plus Android 17 needed during the Vegeta/ 18 fight, Android 17 needed only one bump to take down Super Sayan Truks, while he needed more bumps to take down Pccolo

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:10 pm

Piccolo_Daima wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:48 pm
Piccolo destroyed Android 20 with ease, he didn't use his full power, so he was as strong as a super sayan at that point. Plus Android 17 needed during the Vegeta/ 18 fight, Android 17 needed only one bump to take down Super Sayan Truks, while he needed more bumps to take down Pccolo
A17 one-shotted Piccolo during the Vegeta vs A18 fight.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by Piccolo_Daima » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:15 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:10 pm
Piccolo_Daima wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:48 pm
Piccolo destroyed Android 20 with ease, he didn't use his full power, so he was as strong as a super sayan at that point. Plus Android 17 needed during the Vegeta/ 18 fight, Android 17 needed only one bump to take down Super Sayan Truks, while he needed more bumps to take down Pccolo
A17 one-shotted Piccolo during the Vegeta vs A18 fight.
No, it was more than one shoot, it was Trunks who was one-shotted by A 17

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:24 pm

Piccolo_Daima wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:15 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:10 pm
Piccolo_Daima wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:48 pm
Piccolo destroyed Android 20 with ease, he didn't use his full power, so he was as strong as a super sayan at that point. Plus Android 17 needed during the Vegeta/ 18 fight, Android 17 needed only one bump to take down Super Sayan Truks, while he needed more bumps to take down Pccolo
A17 one-shotted Piccolo during the Vegeta vs A18 fight.
No, it was more than one shoot, it was Trunks who was one-shotted by A 17
I just looked back at the chapter, both took two hits to go down. Piccolo took two hits from 17, Trunks took one from 17 and one from 18.

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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by BWri » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:06 am

TobyS wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 pm
The trouble is, is that Tenshinhan is impressed by sick Goku having seen post Yardat Goku.

So we have hypothetical healthy Goku > Piccolo > Android's > sick Goku > Yardat Goku > Freeza
Yeah, the Super Saiyans of this time are waaaaaaaay stronger than Namek or post Yardrat Super Saiyans. Piccolo is easily above that or he would not be so confident that he could take on beings that supposedly troubled Trunks. The only question is who's stronger between Piccolo and Trunks. I'm of the belief that Trunks didn't manage to make such drastic changes, even compared to Goku so I think Piccolo is stronger than him. That and Piccolo did ever so slightly better in the initial fight with #17 and #18, having better durability feats than Trunks.
Vertical wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:56 am
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo's question "Or have we grown too strong?" cannot be asked unless he is at least stronger than [Initial] SSJ Trunks... it simply would not be a possibility.
Exactly
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:01 am
Correct
Tier 1- Goku, Vegeta and Trunks
This three are strong enough that everything up to Android 18 is fodder.
Tier 2- Piccolo
Can smack around Android 20 but isn't as strong as the Super saiyans.
Arguably, I'd say he's stronger than even Trunks. He displayed better durability feats in the initial fight with #17 and #18
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Re: Piccolo (fighting against #20)

Post by BWri » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:18 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:24 pm
Piccolo_Daima wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:15 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:10 pm


A17 one-shotted Piccolo during the Vegeta vs A18 fight.
No, it was more than one shoot, it was Trunks who was one-shotted by A 17
I just looked back at the chapter, both took two hits to go down. Piccolo took two hits from 17, Trunks took one from 17 and one from 18.
The second hit Trunks took was indirect and it from from #18 who is weaker than #17. The two hits Piccolo took looked more impactful. Its why I think his durability feats are a bit better. Maybe due to Namekian physiology, but his power would still have to be high to survive a blow like that.
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