Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:35 pm

How strong would you say these 2 are during & after the ToP saga compared to just about anybody and why?
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4053
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by emperior » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:26 am

I doubt they improved much if any at all.
Piccolo was shown to be above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan before the tournament so he’s most likely still at that level (which is probably around Super Perfect Cell).
Android 18 is probably just slightly stronger than she was during the Androids arc, so she may be as strong as Android 16 at best in my opinion. But considering how strong her brother has gotten, it wouldn’t surprise me if she’s actually even stronger.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1966
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Lionel » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:22 am

In the broader scope of Super's run, some of the implications made by scenes like Base Goku tussling with Freeza in his final form after said tyrant crippled SSJ Gohan (who's base form was deemed a greater threat than Super Namekian Piccolo) with just one blow in his suppressed first form state while in the following arc Piccolo is portrayed to be arguably stronger than the Base Saiyans during his comparative fight with Frost say a lot. Were I to hazard a guess, I would say that he's at least in the uppermost echelons of the Dragon Ball Z hierarchy. A transformed Buu arc Vegetto is the only one whom I can't confidently say has been surpassed.

#18 is in the same boat, if you ask me. We don't have too great a number of feats from her. I would say one of our most concrete comes in the form of her easily handling and disposing of Tupper whereas Goku was rendered basically helpless against him in his untransformed state. She and Piccolo are probably in the same general tier as each other.

All of it sounds absurd on paper but Super is notorious for its inflation.

User avatar
Pantalones
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1429
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:30 pm

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Pantalones » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:31 pm

Piccolo was shown to be above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan before the tournament so he’s most likely still at that level (which is probably around Super Perfect Cell).
Eh? SSj2 Gohan during the Cell Games was far ahead of Cell (able to match his Kamehameha with only one arm and feeling like he'd lost half his power, then quickly overwhelming and destroying Cell the moment he's able to get himself back in the right state mentally to draw out more than that)... so SSj2 Gohan should still be above Cell even in his weakened Buu Saga state.

If Piccolo's stronger than any form of SSj2 Gohan he's also stronger than any form of Cell.

theherodjl
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by theherodjl » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:51 pm

I think the notion of only Saiyans getting stronger as they continue to fight is outdated at this point and that anyone can improve from fights if they push themselves to their limits & beyond, even Yamcha Krillin.
Piccolo & 18 can be somewhat better or a lot better if need be.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Rakurai » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:24 pm

In the manga, they're likely at a level close to what they last showed in Z, given they stopped training almost entirely.

In the anime, stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks just like everyone else and their mother. :lol:
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by ruler9871 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:17 pm

Both A18 and Piccolo have to solid feats in the anime to suggest that they are now beyond all of Z.

In Piccolo case, its the fact that his fulling charged Special Beam Cannon can one shot the U6 Namekians (who where close to current Ultimate Gohan in Power, who is at least as strong as Normal SSB Goku & Vegeta at the start of the ToP).

In A18's case, its the fact that she beat down Super Ribrianne (who even in her normal state was comparable to a serious Base Goku and a suppressed SSJ1 Vegeta).

With that, I would say that current Piccolo is comparable to the Base Saiyans of the ToP (with his fully charged SBC being SSB level), while A18's power is at least equal to the SSJ1s (possibly even SSJ2s) of the ToP.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

BWri
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by BWri » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:44 am

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:24 pm
In the manga, they're likely at a level close to what they last showed in Z, given they stopped training almost entirely.

In the anime, stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks just like everyone else and their mother. :lol:
Toriyama-san has confirmed in many interviews that Piccolo never stops training. He mentioned him in the same breath as Goku and Vegeta, actually. Piccolo's pretty beefy when you get right down to it. He had shaky showings at the start of the series, but after RoF things got better for him. I feel Toriyama-san didn't really think too hard about how strong Piccolo should be until the Tournament of Destroyers.

There we see Piccolo has trained a bit after RoF and is superior to base Goku and Vegeta which is kinda wild at this point. In both the anime and manga he is shown to be competitive with Frost. The anime puts many stipulations on it to make Piccolo appear much weaker, but the manga plays it straight and shows a fight on even grounds. The only stipulation here is that Piccolo is burning through stamina to match Frost. In both mediums, Frost pushed both Goku and Vegeta into using SSJ to finish him off, thus Piccolo has somehow managed to stay ahead of their base forms.

Later (in the manga) I think a year has passed for the ToP so he should be even stronger than that and he's been training with Gohan. His feats are dubious here, because its hard to scale any of those he fought against in this tourney. We just know that Gohan considers them strong too because they fought side by side. Gohan wasn't yet using full power though because Piccolo tells him not to. I'm pretty sure Piccolo was holding back too, because he and Vegeta are surprised that Frost is actually going all out to eliminate universe 9. Piccolo is comparable to Frost so I think its safe to say if he wasn't holding back that he could almost solo Universe 9. I think he's still holding back when he goes mano a mano with Bergamo but even still he effortlessly defeats him. Frieza told Frost not to mess with SSJ Goku, that same Goku who basically solo'd the Pride Troopers and made it look easy.

Soooo:
Full Power Ultimate Gohan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ Goku > All Out Frost >= All Out Piccolo > Universe 9 > Trio De Danger > Suppressed Gohan > Suppressed Piccolo > Full Power Bergamo is my current take.

also interesting:

SSJ Goku > Pride Troopers > Berserk SSJ Kale > Half the tournament fighters

The Pride Troopers have a teamwork haxx. They were able to put down a version of Kale that caught even SSB Goku and Frieza by surprise.

Later, Piccolo is impressed that #17 can one shot Botamo who gave base Goku a little trouble in the last tournament, saying that it'll take them both to toss him out. I take this to show that #17 is far above him and #17 is comparable to SSJ3 Goku.

All that said, I think Piccolo, Frost, and #18 are all at least Super Buu tier while #17 is SSJ Vegetto tier in the manga. I'd beef all that up by 100x for the inflated anime.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

DragonBallFoodie
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:12 pm
Location: Zambia, Southern Africa

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:30 am

I think anyone who took part in the Tournament of Power got a distinct increase in fighting skill/power (Tien, Master Roshi).

The Androids power is immortal, so not too much improvement for 18.

With Piccolo, I think he's increased his power much more significantly.
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
A true hero goes beyond not the limits of power, but the limits that divide countries and people.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Rakurai » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:39 pm

BWri wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:44 am
Toriyama-san has confirmed in many interviews that Piccolo never stops training. He mentioned him in the same breath as Goku and Vegeta, actually. Piccolo's pretty beefy when you get right down to it. He had shaky showings at the start of the series, but after RoF things got better for him. I feel Toriyama-san didn't really think too hard about how strong Piccolo should be until the Tournament of Destroyers.

There we see Piccolo has trained a bit after RoF and is superior to base Goku and Vegeta which is kinda wild at this point. In both the anime and manga he is shown to be competitive with Frost. The anime puts many stipulations on it to make Piccolo appear much weaker, but the manga plays it straight and shows a fight on even grounds. The only stipulation here is that Piccolo is burning through stamina to match Frost. In both mediums, Frost pushed both Goku and Vegeta into using SSJ to finish him off, thus Piccolo has somehow managed to stay ahead of their base forms.

Later (in the manga) I think a year has passed for the ToP so he should be even stronger than that and he's been training with Gohan. His feats are dubious here, because its hard to scale any of those he fought against in this tourney. We just know that Gohan considers them strong too because they fought side by side. Gohan wasn't yet using full power though because Piccolo tells him not to. I'm pretty sure Piccolo was holding back too, because he and Vegeta are surprised that Frost is actually going all out to eliminate universe 9. Piccolo is comparable to Frost so I think its safe to say if he wasn't holding back that he could almost solo Universe 9. I think he's still holding back when he goes mano a mano with Bergamo but even still he effortlessly defeats him. Frieza told Frost not to mess with SSJ Goku, that same Goku who basically solo'd the Pride Troopers and made it look easy.

Soooo:
Full Power Ultimate Gohan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ Goku > All Out Frost >= All Out Piccolo > Universe 9 > Trio De Danger > Suppressed Gohan > Suppressed Piccolo > Full Power Bergamo is my current take.

also interesting:

SSJ Goku > Pride Troopers > Berserk SSJ Kale > Half the tournament fighters

The Pride Troopers have a teamwork haxx. They were able to put down a version of Kale that caught even SSB Goku and Frieza by surprise.

Later, Piccolo is impressed that #17 can one shot Botamo who gave base Goku a little trouble in the last tournament, saying that it'll take them both to toss him out. I take this to show that #17 is far above him and #17 is comparable to SSJ3 Goku.

All that said, I think Piccolo, Frost, and #18 are all at least Super Buu tier while #17 is SSJ Vegetto tier in the manga. I'd beef all that up by 100x for the inflated anime.
Do you have those interview sources that say Piccolo has never stopped training?

I concur, I place Piccolo around the levels of U6 SSJ Goku/Vegeta. I often forget about that arc, it has such a filler feeling around it. Manga FF Frieza is below SSJ Goku/Vegeta for sure at this point. I place FF Frost ~ FF Frieza.

Piccolo was more worried about his Botamo's gimmick than the strength difference. Goku couldn't do anything to hurt Botamo, he had to ring him out. Piccolo was aiming for the same thing.

Manga Gohan has been training, but not with Piccolo until just hours before the ToP. And he trained Gohan, not necessarily trained with him. Gohan clearly surpassed him.

Also your scaling also misleading. SSJ Kale at her max output > CSSB Goku and Golden Frieza. She burned through a lot of energy in her transformation, enough so that even the Pride Troopers could deal with her. Part of her lore is that her form will by itself destroy her.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

BWri
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by BWri » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:39 pm
Do you have those interview sources that say Piccolo has never stopped training?
Oh yeah, no prob. Check out the very first question and answer. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... yama-2013/
I concur, I place Piccolo around the levels of U6 SSJ Goku/Vegeta. I often forget about that arc, it has such a filler feeling around it.
Yeah, I didn't like it much for that same reason.
Manga FF Frieza is below SSJ Goku/Vegeta for sure at this point. I place FF Frost ~ FF Frieza.
Which is odd. The whole Frieza/Frost/Piccolo/SSJ1 dynamic just throws me off. I guess it just means that Frost and Piccolo are not to be underestimated.
Piccolo was more worried about his Botamo's gimmick than the strength difference. Goku couldn't do anything to hurt Botamo, he had to ring him out. Piccolo was aiming for the same thing.
I agree. I still think it takes a certain degree of power to do that without putting yourself in danger. Piccolo noted that Goku had to go all out in base to even push Botamo, but that was before he thought up the ringout strat.
Manga Gohan has been training, but not with Piccolo until just hours before the ToP. And he trained Gohan, not necessarily trained with him. Gohan clearly surpassed him.
They still trained together. Piccolo makes mention of it when they gather for the ToP and I believe later when Gohan breaks his limit vs. Kefla. Yeah, Gohan clearly surpasses him even before he uses "full power" but it doesn't mean they can't gain a lot from training together.
Also your scaling also misleading. SSJ Kale at her max output > CSSB Goku and Golden Frieza. She burned through a lot of energy in her transformation, enough so that even the Pride Troopers could deal with her. Part of her lore is that her form will by itself destroy her.
That's an interesting way to look at it. I think you're correct here, because otherwise it seems nonsensical that SSJ1 Goku could solo the troops while SSJ Berserk Kale gets mobbed by them.

I don't agree with her being stronger than CSSB or Golden Frieza at any point though. From what I saw her rapid growth simply surprised the two of them. Frieza wasn't impressed by the abuse she inflicted on him after her surprise attack and still wanted a one on one fight, and she couldn't even move CSSB Goku from his spot even under a barrage of punches. Her uppercut finally broke through his guard, but her power literally spiked at that point, momentarily surprising him after he thought he properly gauged and adjusted to her level.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by ruler9871 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:48 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:30 am
I think anyone who took part in the Tournament of Power got a distinct increase in fighting skill/power (Tien, Master Roshi).

The Androids power is immortal, so not too much improvement for 18.

With Piccolo, I think he's increased his power much more significantly.
Who said anything about the Androids having immortal power? And Toriyama himself said that the Cyborg twins can get stronger with training. We've seen A17 get SSB level with just training for 13 years in both the anime & manga for example.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4533
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:56 pm

Piccolo before the ToP was already stronger than a SS2 post Z word Gohan and after training with him he gets a massive increase. In E90 base Gohan was not that far off base Goku and during the ToP Piccolo and Gohan seemed pretty much on even terms.

18 also got a massive increase somehow but as shown in E119, she's still far weaker than Piccolo since she almost got eliminated by simple punches from Gamisaras and Piccolo trashed the latter very easily.

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Nokra » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:13 pm

Piccolo is like perfect cell level. 18 is like 2nd form cell level

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Rakurai » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:39 pm

BWri wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:49 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:39 pm
Do you have those interview sources that say Piccolo has never stopped training?
Oh yeah, no prob. Check out the very first question and answer. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... yama-2013/
I concur, I place Piccolo around the levels of U6 SSJ Goku/Vegeta. I often forget about that arc, it has such a filler feeling around it.
Yeah, I didn't like it much for that same reason.
Manga FF Frieza is below SSJ Goku/Vegeta for sure at this point. I place FF Frost ~ FF Frieza.
Which is odd. The whole Frieza/Frost/Piccolo/SSJ1 dynamic just throws me off. I guess it just means that Frost and Piccolo are not to be underestimated.
Piccolo was more worried about his Botamo's gimmick than the strength difference. Goku couldn't do anything to hurt Botamo, he had to ring him out. Piccolo was aiming for the same thing.
I agree. I still think it takes a certain degree of power to do that without putting yourself in danger. Piccolo noted that Goku had to go all out in base to even push Botamo, but that was before he thought up the ringout strat.
Manga Gohan has been training, but not with Piccolo until just hours before the ToP. And he trained Gohan, not necessarily trained with him. Gohan clearly surpassed him.
They still trained together. Piccolo makes mention of it when they gather for the ToP and I believe later when Gohan breaks his limit vs. Kefla. Yeah, Gohan clearly surpasses him even before he uses "full power" but it doesn't mean they can't gain a lot from training together.
Also your scaling also misleading. SSJ Kale at her max output > CSSB Goku and Golden Frieza. She burned through a lot of energy in her transformation, enough so that even the Pride Troopers could deal with her. Part of her lore is that her form will by itself destroy her.
That's an interesting way to look at it. I think you're correct here, because otherwise it seems nonsensical that SSJ1 Goku could solo the troops while SSJ Berserk Kale gets mobbed by them.

I don't agree with her being stronger than CSSB or Golden Frieza at any point though. From what I saw her rapid growth simply surprised the two of them. Frieza wasn't impressed by the abuse she inflicted on him after her surprise attack and still wanted a one on one fight, and she couldn't even move CSSB Goku from his spot even under a barrage of punches. Her uppercut finally broke through his guard, but her power literally spiked at that point, momentarily surprising him after he thought he properly gauged and adjusted to her level.
Honestly, including RoF scaling just makes everything a shitshow unless you want to inflate everything and cling to the old Saiyan Beyond God form stuff so that somehow Piccolo surpassed that in a matter of months. I just ignore RoF in general except for SSB ~ Golden Frieza.

Fair enough. Though it was more about Piccolo whipping Gohan back into shape and helping him regain his battle sense so whatever training he got out of it may have been minimal.

Golden Frieza was more than just surprised. He was treated like a chewtoy, I mean she literally walked up to him and backhanded him lol. He and Goku were both surprised at her power still continuously rising until she blew up. Even more so, she easily knocked away both CSSB Vegeta and Toppo, and both definitely noticed her before she almost knocked them out.

So in all, manga Piccolo post-ToP is likely around FF Frost's level, who is likely somewhere below SSJ but above base Goku, to use as a benchmark.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

BWri
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by BWri » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:44 am

Rakurai wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:39 pm
Honestly, including RoF scaling just makes everything a shitshow unless you want to inflate everything and cling to the old Saiyan Beyond God form stuff so that somehow Piccolo surpassed that in a matter of months. I just ignore RoF in general except for SSB ~ Golden Frieza.
Referencing the Saiyan Beyond God stuff, I'd rather not help the writers write the show when I don't get paid for it. They don't mention this, so I won't think about it. I typically don't devote too much thought into RoF scaling or connecting it to the rest of the series, but when posting in an in-universe forum, you gotta play by the rules lol.
Fair enough. Though it was more about Piccolo whipping Gohan back into shape and helping him regain his battle sense so whatever training he got out of it may have been minimal.
I actually apologize for misreading that. I notice now that you said "Manga Gohan has been training, but not with Piccolo until just hours before the ToP. And he trained Gohan, not necessarily trained with him." I'm not entirely sure this is true, but I have no way to disprove it either. I would just think that after Frieza's invasion & U6 tourney that they'd train vigorously together.
Golden Frieza was more than just surprised. He was treated like a chewtoy, I mean she literally walked up to him and backhanded him lol.
Well, yeah lol. She roughed him up pretty bad. That beating took place over I believe like 15-17 panels, 3-4 pages lol. But my point is, it didn't matter outside of a few scuff marks on Frieza's golden heinie. We all know how flustered Frieza gets when he's outclassed, especially if its a Saiyan. He was smiling by the end of that beatdown, laughing at the fact that Saiyans keep pulling new transformations out of their a****. He was more mad at Goku for interfering than he was Kale for beating him up. And the entire 15-17 panel beatdown was all the same sequence, so one big combo connected from the initial surprise attack. No stops for Frieza to reorient himself and reengage. And mind, she attacked him while he was fighting Caulifla and Cabba, so he was likely heavily suppressed so as not to accidentally kill them in Golden.
He and Goku were both surprised at her power still continuously rising until she blew up. Even more so, she easily knocked away both CSSB Vegeta and Toppo, and both definitely noticed her before she almost knocked them out.
Yup, I just spoke to someone recently about this scene. After she surprises Vegeta and Toppo, nearly knocking them from the ring, Vegeta later monologues that her attacks catch you by surprise at first but are easy to figure out. None of the top tiers really take her seriously, they are merely surprised at her rapid power growth, sudden speed, and surprise attacks. Notice, she blindsided everyone but Goku while they were already fighting someone.
So in all, manga Piccolo post-ToP is likely around FF Frost's level, who is likely somewhere below SSJ but above base Goku, to use as a benchmark.
That's what I think. It's a fair assessment all things considered.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Rakurai » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:59 pm

BWri wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:44 am
Fair enough. Though it was more about Piccolo whipping Gohan back into shape and helping him regain his battle sense so whatever training he got out of it may have been minimal.
I actually apologize for misreading that. I notice now that you said "Manga Gohan has been training, but not with Piccolo until just hours before the ToP. And he trained Gohan, not necessarily trained with him." I'm not entirely sure this is true, but I have no way to disprove it either. I would just think that after Frieza's invasion & U6 tourney that they'd train vigorously together.
Golden Frieza was more than just surprised. He was treated like a chewtoy, I mean she literally walked up to him and backhanded him lol.
Well, yeah lol. She roughed him up pretty bad. That beating took place over I believe like 15-17 panels, 3-4 pages lol. But my point is, it didn't matter outside of a few scuff marks on Frieza's golden heinie. We all know how flustered Frieza gets when he's outclassed, especially if its a Saiyan. He was smiling by the end of that beatdown, laughing at the fact that Saiyans keep pulling new transformations out of their a****. He was more mad at Goku for interfering than he was Kale for beating him up. And the entire 15-17 panel beatdown was all the same sequence, so one big combo connected from the initial surprise attack. No stops for Frieza to reorient himself and reengage. And mind, she attacked him while he was fighting Caulifla and Cabba, so he was likely heavily suppressed so as not to accidentally kill them in Golden.
He and Goku were both surprised at her power still continuously rising until she blew up. Even more so, she easily knocked away both CSSB Vegeta and Toppo, and both definitely noticed her before she almost knocked them out.
Yup, I just spoke to someone recently about this scene. After she surprises Vegeta and Toppo, nearly knocking them from the ring, Vegeta later monologues that her attacks catch you by surprise at first but are easy to figure out. None of the top tiers really take her seriously, they are merely surprised at her rapid power growth, sudden speed, and surprise attacks. Notice, she blindsided everyone but Goku while they were already fighting someone.
So in all, manga Piccolo post-ToP is likely around FF Frost's level, who is likely somewhere below SSJ but above base Goku, to use as a benchmark.
That's what I think. It's a fair assessment all things considered.
In the extra FTrunks arc chapter, Gohan mentioned he had been training in the gravity room. No mention of Piccolo.

https://imgur.com/r/dbz/lg0BW

Again, Kale literally walked up to him and backhanded him. She wouldn't be able to do that if she didn't have the sufficient power to knock him back. And I don't believe for one second that Frieza can't adjust his battle strength back to 'normal' immediately assuming he was even suppressed in the slightest. And Frieza is a cocky bastard when it comes to Goku, remember his first battle against SSJ Goku? Against SSB Vegeta?

All I'm saying is that her battle power/speed was enough to contend with the likes of the top-tier fighters minus Jiren. There is literally no reason for Goku to go CSSB if he didn't need that strength in order to block her punch. Golden Frieza, CSSB Vegeta, Toppo, none of them should've been treated the way they were if she didn't have a significant battle power/speed at first. Her power is on league with those big boys, and all the more so if she's the Legendary Saiyan of U6 like Broly is for U7. She's not a martial artist or plays in a team so ofc she would be inept in that regard.

I'm not sure what you mean by blindside cause I don't think she blindsided CSSB Vegeta, Toppo, or Aniraza. She literally charged at them straight on.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

BWri
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by BWri » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:53 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:59 pm

In the extra FTrunks arc chapter, Gohan mentioned he had been training in the gravity room. No mention of Piccolo.

https://imgur.com/r/dbz/lg0BW
Oh, well, if this is the case, this doesn't omit that he trained with Piccolo. It's only saying that at this time he is using the gravity chamber to train. Perhaps he does a week of gravity training then a week of Piccolo training. No evidence either way really, but at least later Piccolo does confirm that he trains him.
Again, Kale literally walked up to him and backhanded him. She wouldn't be able to do that if she didn't have the sufficient power to knock him back.
I'm not saying she isn't strong. I'm just saying that she isn't a threat to Frieza, Toppo, Goku, Vegeta, FP Gohan, or Jiren. One backhand doesn't undo Frieza laughing after that beatdown/cracking jokes about Saiyan transformation, being more upset with Goku for interfering than Kale for roughing him up, being eager to continue their fight even kicking Goku away to 1v1, literally telling Goku that he wasn't taking her serious. That's a lot of evidence to ignore in favor of a single backhand.
And I don't believe for one second that Frieza can't adjust his battle strength back to 'normal' immediately assuming he was even suppressed in the slightest.

Literally everyone is suppressed. Did you see how they reacted when Frost went all out. Everyone's like, "That guy's crazy!" The strat is to last until the end, so preserve as much power as possible. Frieza is fighting Caulifla and Cabba. Why would he need even half his total power to handle those two in Golden?
And Frieza is a cocky bastard when it comes to Goku, remember his first battle against SSJ Goku? Against SSB Vegeta?
Remember Namek when he repeatedly held back his power to an insane degree to mess with those he deemed weak. He did it to literally everyone. Remember when characters like Piccolo, Gohan, and base Goku roughed him up pretty bad because he kept holding back? That's his thing. His performance against Kale is no different. And if you mention he was using weaker forms, remember his whole 1% power gimmick, 50%? Frieza gets off by messing with people like this.

As far as cockiness goes, Frieza always and I mean always, loses his cool when he is greatly outmatched and if we take that beatdown at face value, that would be a case of being greatly outmatched. He especially loses his cool when a Saiyan is handing him his a**. He would not get up, laughing if he didn't have an edge here, but he's always shown that he can be entertained when "weaklings" rough him up a bit.
All I'm saying is that her battle power/speed was enough to contend with the likes of the top-tier fighters minus Jiren.

There's no evidence. All of her attacks are surprise attacks, Vegeta even says she basically nothing without them. And the fusion of Kefla is only strong enough to match Gohan. That is all the evidence you need. Gohan's not weak in the manga, but would you confidently put him over CSSB Vegeta? I wouldn't, maybe on par but not stronger.
There is literally no reason for Goku to go CSSB if he didn't need that strength in order to block her punch.

Yeah he used it because he visually saw her giving Golden Frieza a hard time, but Frieza literally says he wasn't taking her seriously. He wasn't even going to jump in until Roshi told him to. He then blocked a punch of hers with no effort. He gauged her to be that level of strength and fought her at that level. When her power spiked, it caught him by surprise. She still couldn't move him from his spot, but might have tagged him if not for Frieza's interference, but we see that she wouldn't have lasted very long because she was nearly at her limit. She was going all out like Frost, whereas the top tiers were still pacing themselves. It was all for naught because eventually she burned herself out to the point the Pride Jobbers could eliminate her and we earlier saw SSJ1 Goku clown them.
Golden Frieza, CSSB Vegeta, Toppo, none of them should've been treated the way they were if she didn't have a significant battle power/speed at first. Her power is on league with those big boys, and all the more so if she's the Legendary Saiyan of U6 like Broly is for U7. She's not a martial artist or plays in a team so ofc she would be inept in that regard.
I just didn't get this feeling. I think the ultimate proof is her fusion losing to FP Gohan. That Gohan is no slouch. I can see him matching base Vegetto but that's it.
I'm not sure what you mean by blindside cause I don't think she blindsided CSSB Vegeta, Toppo, or Aniraza. She literally charged at them straight on.
Vegeta and Toppo were fighting each other and she charged into their fight. Vegeta literally calls this a surprise attack and says she's easy to figure out. Frieza was fighting Cabba and Caulifla when she interfered. She has virtually no 1v1 feats, all interference. Vs. Goku, she couldn't move him. She broke his guard by surprising him at the end, but we didn't see how he'd react thanks to Frieza's interference.

Okay, maybe I haven't explained myself properly. I think this might help. So I think her power spike at its highest put her at maybe SSB-tier or slightly above at the highest. Not CSSB, but SSB. But the power spike is fleeting, kinda like Kaioken. SSB isn't her flat strength. I think SSG is likely her flat strength. Whatever the case, I don't think she can take Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta, Goku, FP Gohan, or Jiren in a 1v1 fight if they 1.) Know exactly how strong she is. 2.) Are using their full power/Aren't suppressing themselves. 3.) Are fully focused on her. There's enough in that chapter to show that none of them are taking her seriously. After she attacks them, Vegeta and Toppo don't even followup. Toppo leaves it to his teammates that have previously struggled with SSJ1 Goku, while Vegeta just sits back and watches with morbid curiosity until he figures out that she's been relying on surprise attacks.

Toyotaro's scaling for this part is really good. He does great at showing us that Kale has a strong base and the potential to be as strong as the high tiers with proper training, maybe even Jiren level. But the genius here is that he introduces a ton of caveats to protect the strength of other characters but still show that Kale is a powerhouse. We get those exciting moments like Kale abusing Frieza to get people excited, but he's smart enough to use overt implications to show us that she's not quite that level even in Berserk.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by Rakurai » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:38 am

BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:53 pm
Oh, well, if this is the case, this doesn't omit that he trained with Piccolo. It's only saying that at this time he is using the gravity chamber to train. Perhaps he does a week of gravity training then a week of Piccolo training. No evidence either way really, but at least later Piccolo does confirm that he trains him.

I'm not saying she isn't strong. I'm just saying that she isn't a threat to Frieza, Toppo, Goku, Vegeta, FP Gohan, or Jiren. One backhand doesn't undo Frieza laughing after that beatdown/cracking jokes about Saiyan transformation, being more upset with Goku for interfering than Kale for roughing him up, being eager to continue their fight even kicking Goku away to 1v1, literally telling Goku that he wasn't taking her serious. That's a lot of evidence to ignore in favor of a single backhand.


Literally everyone is suppressed. Did you see how they reacted when Frost went all out. Everyone's like, "That guy's crazy!" The strat is to last until the end, so preserve as much power as possible. Frieza is fighting Caulifla and Cabba. Why would he need even half his total power to handle those two in Golden?

Remember Namek when he repeatedly held back his power to an insane degree to mess with those he deemed weak. He did it to literally everyone. Remember when characters like Piccolo, Gohan, and base Goku roughed him up pretty bad because he kept holding back? That's his thing. His performance against Kale is no different. And if you mention he was using weaker forms, remember his whole 1% power gimmick, 50%? Frieza gets off by messing with people like this.

As far as cockiness goes, Frieza always and I mean always, loses his cool when he is greatly outmatched and if we take that beatdown at face value, that would be a case of being greatly outmatched. He especially loses his cool when a Saiyan is handing him his a**. He would not get up, laughing if he didn't have an edge here, but he's always shown that he can be entertained when "weaklings" rough him up a bit.

There's no evidence. All of her attacks are surprise attacks, Vegeta even says she basically nothing without them. And the fusion of Kefla is only strong enough to match Gohan. That is all the evidence you need. Gohan's not weak in the manga, but would you confidently put him over CSSB Vegeta? I wouldn't, maybe on par but not stronger.

Yeah he used it because he visually saw her giving Golden Frieza a hard time, but Frieza literally says he wasn't taking her seriously. He wasn't even going to jump in until Roshi told him to. He then blocked a punch of hers with no effort. He gauged her to be that level of strength and fought her at that level. When her power spiked, it caught him by surprise. She still couldn't move him from his spot, but might have tagged him if not for Frieza's interference, but we see that she wouldn't have lasted very long because she was nearly at her limit. She was going all out like Frost, whereas the top tiers were still pacing themselves. It was all for naught because eventually she burned herself out to the point the Pride Jobbers could eliminate her and we earlier saw SSJ1 Goku clown them.

I just didn't get this feeling. I think the ultimate proof is her fusion losing to FP Gohan. That Gohan is no slouch. I can see him matching base Vegetto but that's it.

Vegeta and Toppo were fighting each other and she charged into their fight. Vegeta literally calls this a surprise attack and says she's easy to figure out. Frieza was fighting Cabba and Caulifla when she interfered. She has virtually no 1v1 feats, all interference. Vs. Goku, she couldn't move him. She broke his guard by surprising him at the end, but we didn't see how he'd react thanks to Frieza's interference.

Okay, maybe I haven't explained myself properly. I think this might help. So I think her power spike at its highest put her at maybe SSB-tier or slightly above at the highest. Not CSSB, but SSB. But the power spike is fleeting, kinda like Kaioken. SSB isn't her flat strength. I think SSG is likely her flat strength. Whatever the case, I don't think she can take Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta, Goku, FP Gohan, or Jiren in a 1v1 fight if they 1.) Know exactly how strong she is. 2.) Are using their full power/Aren't suppressing themselves. 3.) Are fully focused on her. There's enough in that chapter to show that none of them are taking her seriously. After she attacks them, Vegeta and Toppo don't even followup. Toppo leaves it to his teammates that have previously struggled with SSJ1 Goku, while Vegeta just sits back and watches with morbid curiosity until he figures out that she's been relying on surprise attacks.

Toyotaro's scaling for this part is really good. He does great at showing us that Kale has a strong base and the potential to be as strong as the high tiers with proper training, maybe even Jiren level. But the genius here is that he introduces a ton of caveats to protect the strength of other characters but still show that Kale is a powerhouse. We get those exciting moments like Kale abusing Frieza to get people excited, but he's smart enough to use overt implications to show us that she's not quite that level even in Berserk.
Okay, this is getting a little absurd. Absence of evidence =/= proof. You can make that assumption but there is nothing to back it up. No mention of Piccolo means no training with Piccolo up until the hours before ToP.

The bold is an assumption on your part. He went in as a SSJ, he used CSSB to block her. No dialogue on "Oh Frieza went Golden so she must be that strong etc etc." Without that, you are extrapolating beyond the context. He almost got eliminated until Frieza interefered, all you need is that derp "oh shit" face he made before she went right in for the final blow.

Again, this is Golden Frieza, not 1st form or 2nd form Frieza, Golden Frieza with the power to contend with CSSB. Yes he was surprised at first but Kale literally walked up to him and backhanded him. So unless he was looking to get intentionally backhanded, then no he wasn't playing around. Might as well say that Frieza was intentionally letting SSJ Goku crush his hands.

You can believe in Frieza's words if you want despite his cocky personality. I believe more in the evidence I see. And I see Frieza getting a beatdown, getting cocky at first, then getting frustrated he was saved by CSSB Goku, and getting sweating palms over Kale's power rising even further.

Let me make this more clear for you visually. Here's Toppo getting "caught off-guard" by CSSB Vegeta. (Spoiler tag shows whole page.)
Image

And here's CSSB Vegeta and Toppo getting "caught off-guard" by Kale.
Image

So yeah bullshit that her peak strength is lower than CSSB.

And here's another assumption on your part with no evidence to the contrary, Gohan being below CSSB. Vados states that Kefla = Kale's power + Caulifla's battle sense. Not Kale's power + Caulifla's power. Potara doesn't necessarily increase the strength of the fusion, as implied with Goku + Satan. Kefla is using Kale's power efficiently, and if Gohan matches that, then yes he's at least CSSB.

I don't believe she can contend with the big boys in the long run. But power-wise before she gets drained she is on par if not above CSSB based on her feats against Goku and Vegeta. And it makes all the more sense when you line it up with the Broly film, because she is the counterpart of Broly from U6.

No 1 vs 1 feats? Golden Frieza's beatdown speaks otherwise. CSSB Goku getting almost eliminated speaks for that.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

User avatar
p-hyvo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 880
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:36 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:35 pm
How strong would you say these 2 are during & after the ToP saga compared to just about anybody and why?
C18 = high base Goku tier (early top), post Broly c18:base goku=piccolo arc Goku (pre sacred water):Saiyan saga Goku imo

Piccolo = low god tier (early top), probaly low god tier during dbs broly, probale high ssj3 tier after dbs broly
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

Post Reply