What does Ki output mean?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Ssb_goku20
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:02 pm

What does Ki output mean?

Post by Ssb_goku20 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am

Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:27 am

Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am
Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?
I think that it refers to the first one. Come to think of it, how would it be beneficial to know how much ki you leak? I meam, it doesn't indicate anything about your power, rather it is evident of how much energy you consume in order to be in a powered-up state.

It has been referenced (especially in Z) that the power output of a form is the equivalent to the power that it grants. Besides, ki leaking is something that only Goku and Vegeta would get to learn, in DBS.

So for example, SSJ3 or Grade 3 SSJ, have massive energy/ki outputs for their immense strength, but so does SSJB, a form which has not "ki leaks".

This is what I think though.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:22 am

Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am
Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?
It is the amount of energy you are leaking out.

Ssb_goku20
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:02 pm

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Ssb_goku20 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:22 am
Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am
Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?
It is the amount of energy you are leaking out.
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:27 am
Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am
Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?
I think that it refers to the first one. Come to think of it, how would it be beneficial to know how much ki you leak? I meam, it doesn't indicate anything about your power, rather it is evident of how much energy you consume in order to be in a powered-up state.

It has been referenced (especially in Z) that the power output of a form is the equivalent to the power that it grants. Besides, ki leaking is something that only Goku and Vegeta would get to learn, in DBS.

So for example, SSJ3 or Grade 3 SSJ, have massive energy/ki outputs for their immense strength, but so does SSJB, a form which has not "ki leaks".

This is what I think though.
Thank you both for your answers.

Ssb_goku20
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:02 pm

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Ssb_goku20 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:22 am
Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am
Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?
It is the amount of energy you are leaking out.
And since you think that Ki output means the amount of energy being leaked out, that means that something like Ssb doesn't have Ki output but Ki input?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:04 am

Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:11 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:22 am
Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 am
Does Ki output mean the amount of power the user have or does it mean how much Ki is being leaked out?
It is the amount of energy you are leaking out.
And since you think that Ki output means the amount of energy being leaked out, that means that something like Ssb doesn't have Ki output but Ki input?
It has God ki output. I don’t think ki “input” is a thing. God forms merely exert another type of energy.

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:04 pm

I don't think ki output is how much energy you simply "leak" out, but rather, it's simply how much ki power you're able to put out (voluntarily or otherwise) over a given time.

SSB has an extremely high ki output when that output is voluntary. When it's not voluntary, then it has exactly zero ki output. Something like Ultra Super Saiyan has a very high involuntary ki output, which is why it's considered very inefficient. It uses up energy just by existing.

It should also be interesting to note that power level is not the same as energy level. One's power level is how much they're able to dish out, not how much ki they have in reserve. Otherwise, the Androids would have infinite power levels, but they don't.

Ki output = power level = what you can dish out.

Ssb_goku20
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:02 pm

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Ssb_goku20 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:50 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:04 pm
I don't think ki output is how much energy you simply "leak" out, but rather, it's simply how much ki power you're able to put out (voluntarily or otherwise) over a given time.

SSB has an extremely high ki output when that output is voluntary. When it's not voluntary, then it has exactly zero ki output. Something like Ultra Super Saiyan has a very high involuntary ki output, which is why it's considered very inefficient. It uses up energy just by existing.

It should also be interesting to note that power level is not the same as energy level. One's power level is how much they're able to dish out, not how much ki they have in reserve. Otherwise, the Androids would have infinite power levels, but they don't.

Ki output = power level = what you can dish out.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:04 am
Ssb_goku20 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:11 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:22 am

It is the amount of energy you are leaking out.
And since you think that Ki output means the amount of energy being leaked out, that means that something like Ssb doesn't have Ki output but Ki input?
It has God ki output. I don’t think ki “input” is a thing. God forms merely exert another type of energy.
Thanks for ya'll answers

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:34 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:04 pm
I don't think ki output is how much energy you simply "leak" out, but rather, it's simply how much ki power you're able to put out (voluntarily or otherwise) over a given time.
Leak out can be voluntary or involuntary. No real difference here.
SSB has an extremely high ki output when that output is voluntary. When it's not voluntary, then it has exactly zero ki output. Something like Ultra Super Saiyan has a very high involuntary ki output, which is why it's considered very inefficient. It uses up energy just by existing.
Hmm.. SSB doesn’t have “ki” output since it leaks out God ki. By Ultra Super Saiyan I assume you are talking about “Super Vegeta” right? Then, can you explain how exactly he leaks out ki involuntarily? As far as I can tell he powered-up by his own will.
It should also be interesting to note that power level is not the same as energy level. One's power level is how much they're able to dish out, not how much ki they have in reserve. Otherwise, the Androids would have infinite power levels, but they don't.
I don’t see the difference. Ki in reserve is impossible to quantify. For instance, if we count that kaioken adds energy in reserve to your current powerlevel, it means Goku can have as much as 20 times of his energy level in reserve. That’s why people use powerlevels to tell how high the energy of a character is at the moment it is being measured.

The Androids don’t have ki, they have artificial ki, another type of energy like God ki. Of course, they have infinite energy in reserve but their body has a limit to how much it can sustain. So, if it was possible to measure their energy level they would have a powerlevel number as the other characters.

User avatar
Cursed Lemon
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 960
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Location, Location
Contact:

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:55 pm

Not...quite sure why we wouldn't just call ki leakage "ki leakage"?
Special Beam Cannon!

(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:34 am

Leak out can be voluntary or involuntary. No real difference here.
The word "leak" implies that it's involuntary. Who ever uses the word "leak" for anything intentional? You don't have an oil leak from your car on purpose.
Hmm.. SSB doesn’t have “ki” output since it leaks out God ki.
God ki is still ki. And if it leaks out, then that's literally an "out put".

By Ultra Super Saiyan I assume you are talking about “Super Vegeta” right? Then, can you explain how exactly he leaks out ki involuntarily? As far as I can tell he powered-up by his own will.
I'm talking about that extremely buff form that Trunks assume, but yes, this applies to Super Vegeta as well as 100% Frieza.

As far as I can tell he powered-up by his own will.
That happens during the transformation process, not after. Once he assumes the form, the form spends lots of ki just to be sustained. That's what's involuntary.

The Androids don’t have ki, they have artificial ki
What? You're throwing the word ki in there and also saying it's not ki.
Of course, they have infinite energy in reserve but their body has a limit to how much it can sustain.
Sure. Regardless of the reason why, their power is finite.

So, if it was possible to measure their energy level they would have a powerlevel number as the other characters.
Their energy level is infinite. Their power level is finite, there for, it should have a "level", yes.

Think of power level as horse power, and energy level as the gas tank. They have an infinite gas tank, but they still have finite horse power.

For instance, if we count that kaioken adds energy in reserve to your current powerlevel, it means Goku can have as much as 20 times of his energy level in reserve. That’s why people use powerlevels to tell how high the energy of a character is at the moment it is being measured.
Nothing indicates that Kaioken adds energy to his reserve, and it's actually more implied that it doesn't do this, given the fact that it rapidly drains him and strains his body. It's like overclocking a CPU or a supercharger on an engine. A supercharger doesn't add gasoline to a car. It just multiplies the horsepower of an engine. It should be noted that doing these things can cause strain and overheating on the machines in question. Very parallel to how Kaioken works.

What probably does add to energy reserve is any transformation like the Super Saiyan transformations. It's why they're called transformations, and it's probably what separates a transformation from a power up. Otherwise, what's the difference?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:57 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:28 pm
Who ever uses the word "leak" for anything intentional?
Raising ki is commonly intentional among Dragon Ball characters and the energy leaks out naturally.
God ki is still ki. And if it leaks out, then that's literally an "out put".
Then clarify it. Both are ki, but they are distinguishable depending on the context you are talking about.
What? You're throwing the word ki in there and also saying it's not ki.
So, 17’s energy is the same as Goku’s? Of course not. 17 doesn’t have the regular ki the living beings have. That’s my point.
Their energy level is infinite. Their power level is finite, there for, it should have a "level", yes. Think of power level as horse power, and energy level as the gas tank. They have an infinite gas tank, but they still have finite horse power.
Energy level is not your gas tank, is your horse power. The gas tank is a device created by Dr. Gero that feeds 17 eternally. But if his body is damaged, his energy level will naturally decrease and he could even die.
Nothing indicates that Kaioken adds energy to his reserve, and it's actually more implied that it doesn't do this, given the fact that it rapidly drains him and strains his body.
Kaioken uses energy in reserve to increase your current energy level, that’s what I said. It burns your tank rapidly to increase your horse power.
What probably does add to energy reserve is any transformation like the Super Saiyan transformations. It's why they're called transformations, and it's probably what separates a transformation from a power up. Otherwise, what's the difference?
There must be some confusion here. Super Saiyan actually increases your energy level, not the energy in reserve. It’s not so different from kaioken. What increases the energy in reserve is training, methods of energy restoration and rest.

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:30 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:57 pm

Raising ki is commonly intentional among Dragon Ball characters
Never said this wasn't intentional.

and the energy leaks out naturally.
And this is the part that's unintentional.

Then clarify it.
I don't need to clarify it. They both have the word ki in it.

You wouldn't need clarification that a penguin is a bird.


So, 17’s energy is the same as Goku’s?
No.

17 doesn’t have the regular ki the living beings have.
Didn't say he did. What he has is still ki though, albeit artificial. It's literally in the name. It doesn't need to be explained.
Energy level is not your gas tank, is your horse power.
No it's not. It's your gas tank. It's blatantly explained that 17 and 18 can fight indefinitely because of infinite energy. That's basically an infinite gas tank.

But if his body is damaged, his energy level will naturally decrease and he could even die.
His power would decrease, not his energy.

You damage an engine, and it would lose power, regardless of what it has in the gas tank. Gasoline is a source of energy. How much gas a car has, is how much energy it has. This doesn't decrease with damage, unless there's a gas leak. And if the gas tank is infinite, then the leak doesn't matter. But if the ENGINE is damage, then the car can lose POWER, despite having infinite energy.
Kaioken uses energy in reserve to increase your current energy level
That doesn't even make sense. You can't increase energy by using energy. Kaioken increases power level.

It burns your tank rapidly to increase your horse power.
That's what I said.

Super Saiyan actually increases your energy level, not the energy in reserve.
Same thing.

Power and energy, however, are not the same thing. That hold true within and outside of Dragon Ball. Use proper terms for their proper meaning.

Energy is how much potential total work/activity you're able to do. Power is the rate of how much work/activity you are able to do, meaning it's how much energy you're able to use per unit time. Something gets damage, and that power (rate of energy usage) can decrease.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:11 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:30 pm
I don't need to clarify it. They both have the word ki in it.
They are different types of ki in the context this thread is about. In a Dragon Ball community like this, it’s expected that you make your point clear. In other communities, of course it wouldn’t matter the difference.
Power and energy, however, are not the same thing. That hold true within and outside of Dragon Ball. Use proper terms for their proper meaning. Energy is how much potential total work/activity you're able to do.
You are confusing energy with stamina. Not really trying to sound rude, but you don’t seem to be familiar with Kanzenshuu’s battle power guide. I think it will enlighten any confusion.

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:33 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:11 pm

They are different types of ki in the context this thread is about.
There are different types of pies in the context of a baking discussion. They're all still pies.

In a Dragon Ball community like this, it’s expected that you make your point clear. In other communities, of course it wouldn’t matter the difference.
Been a Dragon Ball fan for over 20 years. Never experienced anyone expecting this from me. Sorry, I don't buy it. It's just what you expect.

You are confusing energy with stamina.
No, I'm not. I gave you the textbook definition of energy, which is defined as the total potential work of a system. That's the definition of energy. And I gave a separate definition for power. I never brought up stamina, although that's directly related to energy and power.

Not really trying to sound rude, but you don’t seem to be familiar with Kanzenshuu’s battle power guide. I think it will enlighten any confusion.
Okay. I read through it. Why did I need to read through it? It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know from watching/reading Dragon Ball it self.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:43 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:33 am
Been a Dragon Ball fan for over 20 years. Never experienced anyone expecting this from me. Sorry, I don't buy it. It's just what you expect.
Rule #3

You are not obligated to know everything about ki, being a fan or not, but in this particular thread, there is an in-universe context about how God ki is related to ki in general and how it works. So, unless you have a good reason to not see the point in distinguishing them, I don’t know what kind of contribution you are willing to give to the OP.
Why did I need to read through it? It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know from watching/reading Dragon Ball it self.
For instance, ki is a sort of life-energy. Battle power or powerlevel is just a different approach that started in the Saiyan-Freeza era that doesn’t call it life-energy, but rather the amount of energy a person possess for fighting. The text of course reiterates they are the same, since Babidi refers to ki as energy and measures it with kiri units, a pun on the Japanese word for power.

In resume, your powerlevel is the reading of the amount of energy a warrior exerts. So, from this perspective, power is the synonym of energy. Hence the wording “energy level”.

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:43 am

Rule #3
Doesn't say anything about the community expecting the type of clarification you want for ki. It doesn't say anything about ki. That's entirely about appropriate posting style for this forum.

You are not obligated to know everything about ki, being a fan or not,
I don't.

there is an in-universe context about how God ki is related to ki in general and how it works. So, unless you have a good reason to not see the point in distinguishing them, I don’t know what kind of contribution you are willing to give to the OP.
lol what? This thread is asking a question, not giving us an overview of how ki works.

The OP is asking us -- the community -- on what our opinion is in regarding ki output. I gave my response. He thanked me. You disagreed with that same response, and I retorted. That's the contribution. The OP seems satisfied. You don't.

For instance, ki is a sort of life-energy.
The question isn't what ki is. It's what ki output is.

In resume, your powerlevel is the reading of the amount of energy a warrior exerts.
Per unit time.

Is English your first language? I feel like you're just thinking I'm saying one thing when I say another.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:57 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:25 pm
This thread is asking a question, not giving us an overview of how ki works.
Your comment I replied to was to clarify there is a difference between God ki and ki, which the OP asked as well via SSBlue. For some reason, you say the difference between God ki, artificial ki and ki is irrelevant to talk about it. People that have watched Dragon Ball Super definitely understand why we talk about it.
Per unit time.
I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
Is English your first language? I feel like you're just thinking I'm saying one thing when I say another.
My English is fine. Your point is that energy and power are not the same and by consequence that power level and energy level are not as well. I just demonstrated that in the lore of Dragon Ball, they are treated as the same.

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:54 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:57 pm

Your comment I replied to was to clarify there is a difference between God ki and ki, which the OP asked as well via SSBlue. For some reason, you say the difference between God ki, artificial ki and ki is irrelevant to talk about it. People that have watched Dragon Ball Super definitely understand why we talk about it.
I'm saying God ki and Artifical ki are types of ki, and it's incorrect to say they're not ki.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
Power = energy usage per unit time. It's the rate at which you use energy.

Does that clarify it?

My English is fine. Your point is that energy and power are not the same and by consequence that power level and energy level are not as well.
Correct.

I just demonstrated that in the lore of Dragon Ball, they are treated as the same.
No they're not. At worst, the words power and energy are used interchangeably, and that's only because we incorrectly do this in real life, and you hear this all the time in other fictional media. It's nothing more than informal/incorrect speaking.

Dragon Ball doesn't have ownership of the words "power" and "energy". These are real terms with established meaning. Goku doesn't get to throw a punch and call it a kick. They don't get to redefine real-world terms. The Androids prove on a technical level, that power and energy are not the same. They have infinite energy, but they DO NOT have infinite power levels. Clearly there's a distinction.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 2947
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: What does Ki output mean?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:37 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:54 pm
I'm saying God ki and Artifical ki are types of ki, and it's incorrect to say they're not ki.
I never said they aren’t ki. I only emphasized their specialty. I think that at least we managed to make that point get across.
Power = energy usage per unit time. It's the rate at which you use energy.

Does that clarify it?
Power is how Freeza calls ki, Babidi calls it energy. Although, on technical level they are not exactly the same, the usage of those words seems perfectly acceptable among this community. So far, you are the only person I have found to have this kind of problem with how Dragon Ball treats ki. Anyway, I think at least I will be more careful when talking about it somewhere else.

Post Reply