What Can Or Might Be Vegeta's Next Transformation?

[Lord Beerus]

I'd rather Vegeta not have anymore transformations. Dragon Ball REALLY needs to dial back on that shit in general.

[JulieYBM]

While I would prefer that Vegeta and the other characters learn Migatte no Goku'i like Gokuu did I think it would be cool to create a transformation built around his cunny and dirtiness in battles. If Migatte is the act of acting on instinct then maybe give Vegeta a reverse of that by expanding his predictive skills to the max?

[Alruneia]

He should get a counter-UI transformation that does the exact opposite: Instead of the body acting without thinking first, the mind becomes so fast that it has time to think of everything, allowing him to plan many, many steps ahead. Of course, his head would have to grow to support this super-brain, leaving him as "Vegeta Inteligente".


In all seriousness, there are enough transformations in play already. Vegeta has SS1, SS2, SSG and SSB (several versions of SS1 and SSB appear). That's a lot. What I'd like Vegeta to do is to search for the "perfect transformation", one single form that can access most of his power without any heavy drawbacks (SSG is close, but is too weak compared to SSB to fit). A god-powered SS2 of sorts, I guess. And upon reaching this form, he could retire the old SSG and SSB forms for the most part.

[Zephyr]

1. Goku wasn't the strongest guy at the end of the original manga, nor was he anywhere near the strongest at the end of Super. And the only reason he's the best at the end of GT is because everyone else died of old age.

Neither Toriyama nor Toei is nearly as insistent on Goku being number 1 as you make it sound. Remember, this is the same author who initially wanted to retire Goku after the Cell Games.

In terms of drive? In terms of being a martial artist for the sake of being a martial artist? In terms of putting martial arts above other things? Goku is number 1. Dragon Ball ends with Oob being the one guy left to excite Goku, because everyone else has other things they prioritize instead of martial arts. Dragon Ball Super is a (still ongoing) midquel that is taking us from Majin Boo's defeat, to that ending. Yeah, we've got a lot of people to entertain Goku still, but before Super ends, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza, Geran, and Broli are all likely to end up boring him, in the same way that Roshi, Yamucha, Kurilin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Gohan naturally do.

2. What warning signs? He only initially turned down the ToP because:

A) He wanted to wait until Bulla was born.
B) He wasn't aware of the real stakes at first.

Two reasons that would not motivate Goku to do the same.

Him refusing someone else's teachings/advice in the manga version (this never happens in the anime) has nothing to do with wanting to retire either. He had the same issue in the original manga, being to egotistical to accept the aid of others.

His abandonment of Ultra Instinct, and his difficulty accepting aid from others, don't entail him announcing, or even planning, to retire. They both do, however, indicate that he will retire long before Goku does.

Even in GT, he never wants to sit out of the main conflict even if he's outmatched. So yes, its very stupid.

And Goku didn't sit out of any of the conflicts. Still not seeing how it's stupid to suggest that Vegeta might not be as driven of a martial artist as Goku.

[Lionel]

Him refusing someone else's teachings/advice in the manga version (this never happens in the anime) has nothing to do with wanting to retire either. He had the same issue in the original manga, being to egotistical to accept the aid of others.

His abandonment of Ultra Instinct, and his difficulty accepting aid from others, don't entail him announcing, or even planning, to retire. They both do, however, indicate that he will retire long before Goku does.

Something to point out, isn't it a bit late for Vegeta to be making the argument that he doesn't need anyone to improve himself? Going back to the Mecha Freeza arc or even on Namek when he was relying on Sensu Beans provided by Goku, the restorative ability of the natives whom he was slaughtering, and his own enemies to facilitate zenkais, you have Vegeta taking advantage of the resources others provided in order to build himself up. Now you could grant that the restoration chamber example is questionable as Vegeta wasn't exactly asked for his consent before being put in it. The others? It kind of puts a damper on Vegeta's self-sufficient argument, doesn't it?

[Zephyr]

Something to point out, isn't it a bit late for Vegeta to be making the argument that he doesn't need anyone to improve himself? Going back to the Mecha Freeza arc or even on Namek when he was relying on Sensu Beans provided by Goku, the restorative ability of the natives whom he was slaughtering, and his own enemies to facilitate zenkais, you have Vegeta taking advantage of the resources others provided in order to build himself up. Now you could grant that the restoration chamber example is questionable as Vegeta wasn't exactly asked for his consent before being put in it. The others? It kind of puts a damper on Vegeta's self-sufficient argument, doesn't it?

I would regard those as similar to, but not the same as, becoming someone's student and taking the time to learn from them.

[ruler9871]

In terms of drive? In terms of being a martial artist for the sake of being a martial artist? In terms of putting martial arts above other things? Goku is number 1. Dragon Ball ends with Oob being the one guy left to excite Goku, because everyone else has other things they prioritize instead of martial arts. Dragon Ball Super is a (still ongoing) midquel that is taking us from Majin Boo's defeat, to that ending. Yeah, we've got a lot of people to entertain Goku still, but before Super ends, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza, Geran, and Broli are all likely to end up boring him, in the same way that Roshi, Yamucha, Kurilin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Gohan naturally do.

None of bolded ever truly retired from martial arts after Goku lost interest in them, and its unlikely and OOC for any of the 1st 6 names to do so either. You haven't given any sound proof they would.

Two reasons that would not motivate Goku to do the same.

Having other interest in life =/= no longer wanting to improve as a fighter.

His abandonment of Ultra Instinct, and his difficulty accepting aid from others, don't entail him announcing, or even planning, to retire. They both do, however, indicate that he will retire long before Goku does.

Non-Sequitur fallacy. Rejecting UI =/= completely rejecting the teachings of others.

You argument completely ignores that fact that Vegeta still trains under Whis nowadays, and that Vegeta came to Whis for lessons in the 1st place.

And Goku didn't sit out of any of the conflicts. Still not seeing how it's stupid to suggest that Vegeta might not be as driven of a martial artist as Goku.

"And Goku didn't sit out of any of the conflicts."

Which actually helps my point and undermines yours. If neither the type of guy to sit out of conflicts, then how are they any different in that regard?

[PFM18]

He's already showing early warning signs. Willing to miss a fun tournament to see his daughter's birth, giving up on someone's teachings because he's too stubborn. Goku wouldn't do either of those things.

When did he give up on someone's teachings out of stubbornness?

"Forget Ultra Instinct, I'm gonna go my own way instead!"

What? He isn't giving up on Whis's teachings, he just doesn't walk in Goku's shadow. That wasn't his convoluted way of denouncing Whis's teachings of UI, there was an entirely different purpose

[Zephyr]

OOC

Dumb concept. People, and characters, can, and do, change.

proof

This isn't logic or mathematics, the concept doesn't apply.

None of bolded ever truly retired from martial arts after Goku lost interest in them, and its unlikely and OOC for any of the 1st 6 names to do so either.

Does "significantly slowed down their pursuit of growth as martial artists compared to how hard Goku goes at it" work as a better way to express it?

Having other interest in life =/= no longer wanting to improve as a fighter.

Uh....agreed?

Wanting to improve as a fighter =/= wanting to improve as a fighter as thoroughly as Goku does
Wanting to improve as a fighter =/= wanting to improve as a fighter to the extent that you used to want to

That's why I suggested that he'd still stay in shape and such, while not being part of The Big Fight™.

Rejecting UI =/= completely rejecting the teachings of others.

Rejecting User Interface is literally rejecting the teaching of another. It's saying, "I won't rise to this challenge", "this is one hill I am content with not climbing", "I will take this L and keep it". Goku doesn't say those things.

Even in GT, he never wants to sit out of the main conflict even if he's outmatched. So yes, its very stupid.

And Goku didn't sit out of any of the conflicts. Still not seeing how it's stupid to suggest that Vegeta might not be as driven of a martial artist as Goku.

"And Goku didn't sit out of any of the conflicts."

Which actually helps my point and undermines yours. If neither the type of guy to sit out of conflicts, then how are they any different in that regard?

You're bringing up something Vegeta and Goku both do in GT, while ignoring the things that Goku does that Vegeta doesn't do in GT, as if Vegeta also doing only some of the things that Goku does in GT (but not all) is supposed to help your point that Vegeta won't be fine with doing less than Goku?

Vegeta doesn't go into space. Vegeta doesn't go into Hell. Vegeta doesn't go out right away to fight the Evil Dragons. Goku does. Vegeta obviously gets involved in all three conflicts, but not from the outset as Vegeta, circa Age 779, absolutely would.

You argument completely ignores that fact that Vegeta still trains under Whis nowadays, and that Vegeta came to Whis for lessons in the 1st place.

I'm not sure how to make any clearer that my argument is not that "because of all of these things, Vegeta is now retired". Your points are all predicated on demonstrating that Vegeta has not yet retired from The Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence, but I'm perfectly aware that he hasn't (in Super), and I'm not arguing otherwise, so it's odd to see that repeatedly focused on as if it was my point. That's why I came into a thread titled "Next Transformation" (which means "forthcoming change", which means it hasn't happened yet, and would indeed be different) and posted my thoughts. Though, given the original story's ending (which, Super's otherwise needless continued existence as a Midquel, attests the strength of), as well as GT, he does retire from The Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence.

What? He isn't giving up on Whis's teachings, he just doesn't walk in Goku's shadow. That wasn't his convoluted way of denouncing Whis's teachings of UI, there was an entirely different purpose

That doesn't really help. He's too insecure to progress in The Big Fight? Unless you mean that he's just bracketing it for now. He definitely could go back and learn it later, meaning that his bracketing of Ultra Instinct isn't foreshadowing his eventual retirement from The Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence.

[ruler9871]

Dumb concept. People, and characters, can, and do, change.

False. People & characters only change in the way & degree their nature allows. We are not infinitely malleable blank-slates, and neither are fictional characters.

Goku all of a sudden giving up fighting to join a rock band would be completely OOC no matter what the reason for example.

This isn't logic or mathematics, the concept doesn't apply.

Yes it does. All claims require proof, regardless of the type.

Does "significantly slowed down their pursuit of growth as martial artists compared to how hard Goku goes at it" work as a better way to express it?

They never "slowed down their pursuit of growth" in the 1st place. They all still train the same way they always had afterwards.

Wanting to improve as a fighter =/= wanting to improve as a fighter as thoroughly as Goku does
Wanting to improve as a fighter =/= wanting to improve as a fighter to the extent that you used to want to

That's why I suggested that he'd still stay in shape and such, while not being part of The Big Fight™.

That's still a fallacy, and the only reason those characters like Piccolo stay out of the big fight is because they simply aren't strong enough to be of any help, not out of desire.

Rejecting User Interface is literally rejecting the teaching of another. It's saying, "I won't rise to this challenge", "this is one hill I am content with not climbing", "I will take this L and keep it". Goku doesn't say those things.

Yes he does and has several times (especially when it comes to taking Ls). Vegeta finding another way to get more power =/= no longer wanting to get more powerful anymore. You aren't making any logical sense.

You're bringing up something Vegeta and Goku both do in GT, while ignoring the things that Goku does that Vegeta doesn't do in GT, as if Vegeta also doing only some of the things that Goku does in GT (but not all) is supposed to help your point that Vegeta won't be fine with doing less than Goku?

Vegeta doesn't go into space. Vegeta doesn't go into Hell. Vegeta doesn't go out right away to fight the Evil Dragons. Goku does. Vegeta obviously gets involved in all three conflicts, but not from the outset as Vegeta, circa Age 779, absolutely would.

Another bad argument.

1. The Z-crew didn't expect to encounter any strong enemies in the hurt for the Black Star DBs (remember, Freeza was supposed to be the strongest mortal in the universe, and he died after the Namek arc). That's why Vegeta didn't go, it didn't seem like that serious of a situation.

2. Vegeta didn't go to Hell because he was never forcibly thrown into Hell like Goku was, so why would he? Your argument doesn't make any sense here.

3. Vegeta did try to go fight the Evil Dragons once he sensed Syn Shenron.

I'm not sure how to make any clearer that my argument is not that "because of all of these things, Vegeta is now retired". Your points are all predicated on demonstrating that Vegeta has not yet retired from The Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence, but I'm perfectly aware that he hasn't (in Super), and I'm not arguing otherwise, so it's odd to see that repeatedly focused on as if it was my point. That's why I came into a thread titled "Next Transformation" (which means "forthcoming change", which means it hasn't happened yet, and would indeed be different) and posted my thoughts. Though, given the original story's ending (which, Super's otherwise needless continued existence as a Midquel, attests the strength of), as well as GT, he does retire from The Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence.

Even in GT, he never actually retired from the so-called "Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence". The moment Bulma reveals a way for him to become SSJ4 he immediately declares himself Goku rival again and claims that he will catch to him.

And even before that, Vegeta in GT was often shown bugging Goku for a rematch and getting pissed off that everyone valued Goku over him: https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/1002445514724474881

There was never any intention of Vegeta retiring in the Original manga's ending, nor was it ever implied in his speech in the Buu saga. That's just a false interpretation many Western fans project onto it (one that isn't even supported by the Daizenshuu, nor any interview from Toriyama regarding Vegeta) largely out of bias. The new Kanzenban ending doesn't retcon a thing at all.

That doesn't really help. He's too insecure to progress in The Big Fight? Unless you mean that he's just bracketing it for now. He definitely could go back and learn it later, meaning that his bracketing of Ultra Instinct isn't foreshadowing his eventual retirement from The Big Fight of being the greatest martial artist in existence.

This doesn't make any sense. Progressing in a different way from Goku =/= not progressing at all. Even Whis agreed with his decision to not go for UI and get SSBE instead.

Just admit it, you want Goku to be the only relevant character ever in the series.

[Zephyr]

Alright, so we're at the part of the argument where I restate my point again, and you continue to not understand what I'm saying. Hard pass. You win. Gimme that sweet, sweet, L.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku all of a sudden giving up fighting to join a rock band would be completely OOC no matter what the reason for example.

Well, if Goku named the band "Rock The Dragon", it would be totally fucking worth it.

[theherodjl]

Retiring and becoming a full-time father.

Personal opinions on what Vegeta could do whether it be OOC or not, any ideas on a new transformation?

[Grimlock]

A better question would be: do Saiyans really need more transformations? What about the other characters, mainly Piccolo?

[theherodjl]

A better question would be: do Saiyans really need more transformations? What about the other characters, mainly Piccolo?

It would be something to think about if the question was "What transformation could Piccolo have?" but the question here is "What transformation should Vegeta have next?". You know the Saiyans, they're only the race in DB that have the most numerous amount of forms & variants of forms in the series. Surely, Vegeta can pull something out of his somehow-still-tailless butt?

[ruler9871]

A better question would be: do Saiyans really need more transformations? What about the other characters, mainly Piccolo?

Super Namekian God Piccolo seriously needs to happen.

[Grimlock]

You know the Saiyans, they're only the race in DB that have the most numerous amount of forms & variants of forms in the series.

But with no proper explanation and rules as to why that is the case. Which means other characters can (and a few should) get transformations as well, mainly Piccolo.

Super Namekian God Piccolo seriously needs to happen.

Yeah, I've been expecting the red-eyed form for a long time now, probably a god transformation for Namekuseijins would be amazing too. If Saiyans can get it, don't know why the warrior-type of Namekuseijins couldn't. Besides, his reduced role these days is beyond pathetic.

[Shaddy]

Well if you want to fight against saiyan-only transformations, utilize and improve the transformations that aren't specific to saiyans. Ultra Instinct is obviously the most recent example of this, but there's also stuff like kaio-ken and...well no, that's really the only two, and kaio ken isn't really a transformation so much as a technique, but there's no reason for the others not to be able to use them other than that Goku is soooo strong OwO and everyone is sick to death of Goku not just being the best but the show actively jerking him off at every opportunity.

[theherodjl]

You know the Saiyans, they're only the race in DB that have the most numerous amount of forms & variants of forms in the series.

But with no proper explanation and rules as to why that is the case. Which means other characters can (and a few should) get transformations as well, mainly Piccolo.

Again, the question here isn't "what other character should receive a new transformation?". We're talking about what transformation is next for Vegeta, an inevitable outcome as Vegeta would never let Goku remain a whole step ahead of him.

[ruler9871]

Well if you want to fight against saiyan-only transformations, utilize and improve the transformations that aren't specific to saiyans. Ultra Instinct is obviously the most recent example of this, but there's also stuff like kaio-ken and...well no, that's really the only two, and kaio ken isn't really a transformation so much as a technique, but there's no reason for the others not to be able to use them other than that Goku is soooo strong OwO and everyone is sick to death of Goku not just being the best but the show actively jerking him off at every opportunity.

I've never understand why Goku nor even King Kai (who trained most of the Humans) never taught any of his allies Kaio-ken. It makes zero sense, especially in King Kai's case.

It's likely just another example of Toriyama being a neglectful writer, since Toei (especially with Heroes) & Toyotaro have no problems giving new powers & abilities to the side characters in order to catch up.