Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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QuakingStar
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Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Mon May 06, 2019 12:55 pm

So Dragon Ball GT scans from the November 1996 V-Jump pretty much confirms what the Perfect Files said about Baby Vegeta's forms, from what somebody told me and that is that Baby Vegeta is a SS when his hair turns white and his aura goes gold, he then fights and has the edge against SS3 Goku. Baby Vegeta then powers up into the mutated SS2 form known as Super Baby Vegeta 1 making him twice as strong at the least, he then powers up again into the mutated Super Saiyan 3 form known as Super Baby Vegeta 2 making him 8 times stronger than when he fought SS3 Goku and after that he becomes a Golden Great Ape making him 10x stronger than his Super Baby Vegeta 2 form making him a total of 80X stronger than when he fought SS3 Goku. According to an interview that was translated and then posted on Kanzenshuu having Super Saiyan 3 is one of the requirements to be able to become a Golden Great Ape and that supports it. I would appreciate if some other users could chime in and we could try to further figure Super Saiyan 4 out because on Dragon Ball wikia's and even here on Kanzenshuu there isn't too much I could find on it.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Mon May 06, 2019 8:40 pm

According to an interview that was translated and then posted on Kanzenshuu having Super Saiyan 3 is one of the requirements to be able to become a Golden Great Ape and that supports it.
Vegeta never had SSJ3, and he still went Golden Great Ape after being charged with Blutz waves.

I don't support the use of multipliers since these are not supported within the context of the series as a whole.

Here's the stuff on SSJ4 from the Perfect Files Vol. I:
Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

Golden Oozaru is the basis of its super power!!
After succeeding in regenerating his tail, Goku transformed into the mightiest and most violent Golden Oozaru, devoid of reason, who carried out nothing but destruction!! When this Golden Oozaru gained a human heart, the result was the birth of the mightiest of warriors, Super Saiyan 4, who combines reason with tremendous power!!

[red text] A red flash!! The ultimate Super Saiyan, who has achieved a super evolution!!!

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Mon May 06, 2019 10:49 pm

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -qt-on-gt/ Super Saiyan 3 is needed to be able to use GGA.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Mon May 06, 2019 10:51 pm

The only way Goku could cover the power gap with GGA Baby Vegeta is if he had these kinds of multipliers to his power. Baby Vegeta is CONFIRMED to be using Super Saiyan when he beats SS3 Goku the first time.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Mon May 06, 2019 11:05 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 10:49 pm
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -qt-on-gt/ Super Saiyan 3 is needed to be able to use GGA.
This is basically an opinion/speculation column from people at Funimation, and not from Shueisha or the content creators behind Toei of GT. There is no translation whatsoever, the original language is in English. It is about as valid as Chris Sabat's opinion on Vegeta being the strongest Saiyan on the show.

And they are wrong on that. Fact remains Vegeta did not have SSJ3, and he could still go GGA/SSJ4 thanks to Blutz waves.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 07, 2019 3:25 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 10:49 pm
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -qt-on-gt/ Super Saiyan 3 is needed to be able to use GGA.
This is new to me too, never heard that.
Anyway, ssj's strength doesn't change if it is ssj3 or ssj2 oozaru. It remains as I told you anyway.
We can guess that gt vegeta has ssj3 too,but just don't utilize it because of the strain the form puts on you. Vegeta isn't stupid, if a form is unstable or gives him disadvantage, he doesn't uses that.
Btw, vegeta being or not capable of using ssj3 doesn't change facts : gt perfect files compares super baby 2 to a ssj3, super baby 1 to a ssj2 and base baby vegeta to a Ssj, so , simply super baby 2 = x8 baby vegeta, exactly like ssj3 =x8 ssj
To be sure, let's assume that vegeta doesn't have ssj3, and that particular transformation (super baby 2) equivalent to a ssj3 is given only by the influence of baby, exactly like the control of the golden oozaru from without turning ssj4 (it is even explained in series that baby didn't turn "ssj4" because he was controlling the body instead of his real owner [vegeta])
Last edited by p-hyvo on Tue May 07, 2019 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 07, 2019 3:28 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 10:51 pm
The only way Goku could cover the power gap with GGA Baby Vegeta is if he had these kinds of multipliers to his power. Baby Vegeta is CONFIRMED to be using Super Saiyan when he beats SS3 Goku the first time.
Baby vegeta isn't confirmed to use ssj, gtpf just tells that his base is the equivalent of a ssj.
Base baby vegeta = ssj
Baby vegeta ssj doesn't exist
Baby took over vegeta while he was ssj, so "base" baby vegeta = vegeta ssj
Consequently super baby 1 = vegeta ssj2, and super baby 2 = hypothetical vegeta ssj3 (not obviously talking about baby vegeta's strength, saying that baby vegeta = ssj vegeta in power is just stupid. I was just talking about the forms to explain them better)
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 07, 2019 3:50 am

Said so, as I've told to @quaking star previously in pm, ssj4 is just ssj3 x100 talking about the multiplier. I thought better about what I've told you and no, x80 ssj3 doesn't work, because it would imply that ssj3 Goku = base baby vegeta (guaranteed it could be that Goku lost to him just because of the strain of ssj3, I think it too, but goku got injured too before turning ssj4, so ssj3 x100 is needed to close the gap)
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 07, 2019 2:43 pm

The white haired Baby Vegeta with the yellow aura is Super Saiyan, Goku confirmed that. When his hair is just black he is in base form.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 07, 2019 3:19 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:43 pm
The white haired Baby Vegeta with the yellow aura is Super Saiyan, Goku confirmed that. When his hair is just black he is in base form.
The first baby vegeta is referred as base by gtpf, then is told that his base is the equivalent of a ssj
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 07, 2019 3:35 pm

But if it's equivalent that means it has the same power boost added to it meaning his SBV1 form should have the SS2 power boost added to it, and SBV2 should have the SS3 power boost added to it

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue May 07, 2019 4:00 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 10:49 pm
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -qt-on-gt/ Super Saiyan 3 is needed to be able to use GGA.
Nothing that comes from FUNimation is a fact. It's just opinion of employee. Nothing more.

Also, Super Baby 1 isn't SSJ2 and Super Baby 2 isn't SSJ3.
Perfect Files only stated that Super Baby 2 reminds SSJ3. Nothing was ever said about Super Baby 1 having any connection to SSJ2.
All of them are just SSJ forms, but mutated even more since Baby was evolving all the time.
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:19 pm
The first baby vegeta is referred as base by gtpf, then is told that his base is the equivalent of a ssj
It's not his base tho, it's still SSJ. They never call him "SSJ Baby Vegeta" because he is always using SSJ except for few moments right after he took Vegeta's body. The same way Majin Vegeta is never called "Majin Vegeta SSJ2" and SSJ2 isn't his 'base' or anything like that.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 07, 2019 5:04 pm

That remains moot, as SS Baby Vegeta was said to be tied with SS3 Goku in power, he then powers up again to another form which is hinted to be a mutated tuffle SS2 form, then another form again which is hinted to be a mutated SS3 tuffle form, he then gets 10x stronger than that by forcing Vegeta's body to become Golden Great Ape via blutz waves machine. In order for Goku to cover that gap in power, Super Saiyan 3's power must be involved in Super Saiyan 4, also no those were not opinions it was information given to them by the company. The only opinion is when they say they simply like to all GGA a Gorilla. Goku would have to be around 10x-100x stronger than his SS3 to be able to even fight GGA Baby Vegeta

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Tue May 07, 2019 5:42 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:04 pm
In order for Goku to cover that gap in power, Super Saiyan 3's power must be involved in Super Saiyan 4, also no those were not opinions it was information given to them by the company.
There is absolutely nothing that suggests the information was given to them by the company. The show contradicts their statements, the fact remains that Vegeta did not have SSJ3, yet he was able to go to SSJ4 thanks to Bulma's Blutz wave generator. He did not go SSJ3 afterwards. No source from Toei or Shueisha indicates he has SSJ3. Therefore the folks at Funimation are wrong.

They claim that Dr. Briefs is Bulma's surname (which they use for the English dub), but there is nothing that ever suggests that in the series. Kanzenshuu even comments on this.

The only official and legitimate sources for information on DBGT are the Perfect Files I & II, licensed and released by Shueisha, and the director interviews on DBGT Dragon Box.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 07, 2019 5:58 pm

You still aren't getting it, in order to cover the power gap, the SS4 form must be around 100x stronger than Super Saiyan 3. You keep saying "only this and that can say this and that" but haven't seemed to acknowledge the required power jump to be able to fight GGA Baby Vegeta.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue May 07, 2019 6:14 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:04 pm
he then powers up again to another form which is hinted to be a mutated tuffle SS2 form
Nothing like that was ever hinted.

And it's obvious SSJ4 is far more than SSJ3 X10, otherwise he would never beat Golden Oozaru Baby.
But Golden Oozaru would be X10 increase from SSJ, not SSJ3, so your logic doesn't even make sense anyway. You can't assume Baby was SSJ3 AND got 10 times stronger by turning into Golden Oozaru.
Super Baby 1 and Super Baby 2 are evolutions of Baby, not Vegeta. They have nothing to do with SSJ2 and SSJ3. All of them are regular SSJ.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Tue May 07, 2019 6:30 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:58 pm
You still aren't getting it, in order to cover the power gap, the SS4 form must be around 100x stronger than Super Saiyan 3. You keep saying "only this and that can say this and that" but haven't seemed to acknowledge the required power jump to be able to fight GGA Baby Vegeta.
What does the power gap have to do with the requirements of SSJ4? That is like saying you need to have SSJ3 in order to become SSG because SSG is stronger than SSJ3. Also 100x is an arbitrary multiplier and there is nothing that supports exacts numbers in the series.

Let me re-quote the segment from the Perfect Files Vol. 1 again:
It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.
> Called SSJ4 out of convenience, therefore it's not supposed to be in line with the golden-haired SSJ classification.

And to further prove my point, GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 also had a chart of SSJ class users:
viewtopic.php?t=14812
Super Saiyan Classification Chart

Super Saiyan 1
Goku
Gohan
Goten
Vegeta
Future Trunks
Trunks
Gotenks
Vegetto

Super Saiyan 1, Grade 2
Goku
Future Trunks
Vegeta

Super Saiyan 1, Grade 3
Goku
Future Trunks

Super Saiyan 2
Goku
Gohan
Demon Prince Vegeta
Gotenks

Super Saiyan 3
Goku
Gotenks

Super Saiyan 4
Goku
Vegeta isn't listed as a SSJ3 user, and Baby Vegeta could go Golden Great Ape despite that.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 07, 2019 6:33 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:14 pm
QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:04 pm
he then powers up again to another form which is hinted to be a mutated tuffle SS2 form
Nothing like that was ever hinted.

And it's obvious SSJ4 is far more than SSJ3 X10, otherwise he would never beat Golden Oozaru Baby.
But Golden Oozaru would be X10 increase from SSJ, not SSJ3, so your logic doesn't even make sense anyway. You can't assume Baby was SSJ3 AND got 10 times stronger by turning into Golden Oozaru.
Super Baby 1 and Super Baby 2 are evolutions of Baby, not Vegeta. They have nothing to do with SSJ2 and SSJ3. All of them are regular SSJ.
Well, for sure oozaru baby isn't x10 "base" baby vegeta, but x10 super baby 2. So, without that how would you calculate super baby oozaru?that is the only viable way.
That forms are baby's ssj2 and ssj3 versions, as the gtpf tells they have similar looking features to the saiyan counterparts, as longer hair and no eyebrows for example.
It is similar in sight, so why don't give it the same multiplier?just to make things easier, I mean
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 07, 2019 6:59 pm

@ Rakurai This is about Super Saiyan 4's information AND power. So the power estimations based on the covering of power gaps are necessary. GGA Baby Vegeta is 10x stronger than SBV2 and that's a fact. Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta was tied in power with SS3 Goku. Super Saiyan 4's power increase has to be astronomical in order to cover the gap between SS3 Goku = Baby Vegeta Super Saiyan, to GGA Baby Vegeta. So it has to be 100x the power he had as a SS3 or even more than 100x that power. That's what I am trying to tell you

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Tue May 07, 2019 11:14 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:59 pm
@ Rakurai This is about Super Saiyan 4's information AND power. So the power estimations based on the covering of power gaps are necessary. GGA Baby Vegeta is 10x stronger than SBV2 and that's a fact. Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta was tied in power with SS3 Goku. Super Saiyan 4's power increase has to be astronomical in order to cover the gap between SS3 Goku = Baby Vegeta Super Saiyan, to GGA Baby Vegeta. So it has to be 100x the power he had as a SS3 or even more than 100x that power. That's what I am trying to tell you
First bold: No that's not a fact. There is zero evidence of that from any official sources/guides on GT.

Second bold: I can say it's 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku and you would have no evidence to the contrary. Any numbers for SSJ4 are speculation/headcanon.

You initially claimed SSJ3 was required to become Golden Great Ape and therefore Vegeta must have it based on some random Funimation interview. I disproved that with proof from both the show and official guides released by Shueisha, the umbrella company for DBGT. Funimation has zero authority on DB facts, their job is to dub and can only speculate and deduce at best from the currently existing material.

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