Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

[ankokudaishogun]

I know that but the phrase in Japan tens of times, I've only ever seen it used to mean up to 100, when they mean more in Japan they will usually say tens of hundreds, tens of thousands etc.

That is very subjective though. “Tens of times” is vague enough that it can be literally at between 20 and 99 or countless times more. There is no established limit to how much tens we are talking about and it wouldn’t make sense either. It’s an empty guess.

"Tens of times" don't USUALLY have a strict limit in ENGLISH, though it stops making sense once you reach 200(at that point it makes more sense to use "hundreds of times")

English, though, is not Japanese. It's perfectly possible in Japanese it has a stricter meaning. but I am no expert enough in Japanese to make sure of it.

[Rakurai]

I'm just going to chime into this conversation to clarify some meaning or give my own insight on a specific translation portion.

I know that but the phrase in Japan tens of times, I've only ever seen it used to mean up to 100, when they mean more in Japan they will usually say tens of hundreds, tens of thousands etc.

That is very subjective though. “Tens of times” is vague enough that it can be literally at between 20 and 99 or countless times more. There is no established limit to how much tens we are talking about and it wouldn’t make sense either. It’s an empty guess.

"Tens of times" don't USUALLY have a strict limit in ENGLISH, though it stops making sense once you reach 200(at that point it makes more sense to use "hundreds of times")

English, though, is not Japanese. It's perfectly possible in Japanese it has a stricter meaning. but I am no expert enough in Japanese to make sure of it.

I'll try to give my own opinion on the matter as someone who can speak Japanese and has been exposed to it sufficiently. The Japanese term being used is "数十倍," which translated literally means "tens of times." However, I have seen the term been translated to terms that indicate a large number of physical/abstract things, including "dozens," "many," "several," and "decades." Except for the word "dozen," there are corresponding words for these other synonyms. It is a nuance of the Japanese language that context is very important, and the language itself can become very ambiguous sometimes, leaving you with only a sense of how much it can be, not what it actually is. However, in my personal reading experience, I've encountered the term "数十" whenever the topic is trying to evoke a feeling representative of some large number which can be upwards above 100 (e.g. number of casualties in a war or natural disaster), but likely not above 1000.

Here is where the term came up in the GT Perfect Files II with regards to SS4 Gogeta:

Spoiler:

Note that the specific passage says SS4 Gogeta is "probably tens of times that of a SS4 alone." The "probably" throws a lot more ambiguity into the passage.

And then there's the official entry from the Toei website:

Spoiler:

This passage says Gogeta's power is "more than tens of times that of a Super Saiyan 4." This passage does not include the word "probably" (thus throwing away that ambiguity) and "alone" (however the context should be clear that it is referencing his power to a sole SS4 user, likely Goku or Vegeta) and adds the word "more." It is slightly different from the Perfect Files, but the implications are much more different.

So these two passages that describe SS4 Gogeta's power give the feeling that it is "tens of times," but nothing concrete. It is the sense of the large number that ultimately matters.

Also do note that the same term "数十倍" was said by Vados with regards to Kefla, who is a Potara fusion.

[p-hyvo]

I'm just going to chime into this conversation to clarify some meaning or give my own insight on a specific translation portion.

That is very subjective though. “Tens of times” is vague enough that it can be literally at between 20 and 99 or countless times more. There is no established limit to how much tens we are talking about and it wouldn’t make sense either. It’s an empty guess.

"Tens of times" don't USUALLY have a strict limit in ENGLISH, though it stops making sense once you reach 200(at that point it makes more sense to use "hundreds of times")

English, though, is not Japanese. It's perfectly possible in Japanese it has a stricter meaning. but I am no expert enough in Japanese to make sure of it.

I'll try to give my own opinion on the matter as someone who can speak Japanese and has been exposed to it sufficiently. The Japanese term being used is "数十倍," which translated literally means "tens of times." However, I have seen the term been translated to terms that indicate a large number of physical/abstract things, including "dozens," "many," "several," and "decades." Except for the word "dozen," there are corresponding words for these other synonyms. It is a nuance of the Japanese language that context is very important, and the language itself can become very ambiguous sometimes, leaving you with only a sense of how much it can be, not what it actually is. However, in my personal reading experience, I've encountered the term "数十" whenever the topic is trying to evoke a feeling representative of some large number which can be upwards above 100 (e.g. number of casualties in a war or natural disaster), but likely not above 1000.

Here is where the term came up in the GT Perfect Files II with regards to SS4 Gogeta:

Spoiler:

Note that the specific passage says SS4 Gogeta is "probably tens of times that of a SS4 alone." The "probably" throws a lot more ambiguity into the passage.

And then there's the official entry from the Toei website:

Spoiler:

This passage says Gogeta's power is "more than tens of times that of a Super Saiyan 4." This passage does not include the word "probably" (thus throwing away that ambiguity) and "alone" (however the context should be clear that it is referencing his power to a sole SS4 user, likely Goku or Vegeta) and adds the word "more." It is slightly different from the Perfect Files, but the implications are much more different.

So these two passages that describe SS4 Gogeta's power give the feeling that it is "tens of times," but nothing concrete. It is the sense of the large number that ultimately matters.

Also do note that the same term "数十倍" was said by Vados with regards to Kefla, who is a Potara fusion.

Thank you, you were really clarifying

[ankokudaishogun]

in short, context requires "数十倍" to be interpreted not strictly as "tens of times" but more loosely as a generic "a lot of times"

[Hugo Boss]

*snip*

This is the kind of contribution this subsection needs. Thanks for the in-depth response. So, as I thought, the verbatim used is to give an idea of a very large number, not a concrete information.

[QuakingStar]

If that is the case then Super Saiyan 4 is even more ridiculously strong than I thought it was and it really is above Potential Unleashed and a SS3 Vegito would only be possibly stronger than the Super Saiyan 4 form, Showing GT's statement of calling it the Ultimate Form(they considered PU and Fusion as forms). So if we use x1000 for the term that was just translated then SS3 Vegito would be around 800,000x the power of base Goku/Vegeta and SS4 is compared to that power. meaning SS4 is around 800,000x base power and even then x1000 might be lowballing it.

[p-hyvo]

If that is the case then Super Saiyan 4 is even more ridiculously strong than I thought it was and it really is above Potential Unleashed and a SS3 Vegito would only be possibly stronger than the Super Saiyan 4 form, Showing GT's statement of calling it the Ultimate Form(they considered PU and Fusion as forms). So if we use x1000 for the term that was just translated then SS3 Vegito would be around 800,000x the power of base Goku/Vegeta and SS4 is compared to that power. meaning SS4 is around 800,000x base power and even then x1000 might be lowballing it.

Ssj4 in z depends on what multiplier you give to vegeth on Goku.
But in gt it is x40'000 because it scales from baby vegeta. In gt , only x40'000 can be right as a multiplier for goku's ssj4

[Hugo Boss]

in gt it is x40'000 because it scales from baby vegeta. In gt , only x40'000 can be right as a multiplier for goku's ssj4

How exactly Baby Vegeta’s forms compare to Goku’s forms?

[p-hyvo]

in gt it is x40'000 because it scales from baby vegeta. In gt , only x40'000 can be right as a multiplier for goku's ssj4

How exactly Baby Vegeta’s forms compare to Goku’s forms?

From gt perfect files, we come to know that :
Base baby vegeta = ssj
His forms works like ssj2 and 3 on top of his base (gt perfect files do describe his transformation with a lot of similarities to ssj2 an 3)

Goku ssj4 was pummeling oozaru baby, that is confirmed to be x10 of super baby 2 (as if the design and logic weren't already enough for people to get it)

[sunsetshimmer]

His forms works like ssj2 and 3 on top of his base (gt perfect files do describe his transformation with a lot of similarities to ssj2 an 3)

It was only said that SB2 resembles SSJ3 in visuals. Nothing about SB1 resembling SSJ2.

[p-hyvo]

His forms works like ssj2 and 3 on top of his base (gt perfect files do describe his transformation with a lot of similarities to ssj2 an 3)

It was only said that SB2 resembles SSJ3 in visuals. Nothing about SB1 resembling SSJ2.

I think it is said that the second form resembles ssj3 because have longer hair than the first, If I recall correctly. I'll go home and check anyway

[Hugo Boss]

in gt it is x40'000 because it scales from baby vegeta. In gt , only x40'000 can be right as a multiplier for goku's ssj4

How exactly Baby Vegeta’s forms compare to Goku’s forms?

From gt perfect files, we come to know that :
Base baby vegeta = ssj
His forms works like ssj2 and 3 on top of his base (gt perfect files do describe his transformation with a lot of similarities to ssj2 an 3)

Goku ssj4 was pummeling oozaru baby, that is confirmed to be x10 of super baby 2 (as if the design and logic weren't already enough for people to get it)

Okay, if Baby Vegeta’s forms are similar to Saiyan’s forms and SS(1-2-3) Baby Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku, that would make GGA Baby Vegeta stronger than GGA Goku, right? But the question is how they compare?

[p-hyvo]

How exactly Baby Vegeta’s forms compare to Goku’s forms?

From gt perfect files, we come to know that :
Base baby vegeta = ssj
His forms works like ssj2 and 3 on top of his base (gt perfect files do describe his transformation with a lot of similarities to ssj2 an 3)

Goku ssj4 was pummeling oozaru baby, that is confirmed to be x10 of super baby 2 (as if the design and logic weren't already enough for people to get it)

Okay, if Baby Vegeta’s forms are similar to Saiyan’s forms and SS(1-2-3) Baby Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku, that would make GGA Baby Vegeta stronger than GGA Goku, right? But the question is how they compare?

From the show we know that GO Goku worried super baby 2 forcing him to defend himself against the oozaru.
This can perfectly mean that GO Goku and super baby 2 are even in strength, or maybe that GO goku had a little advantage on him ( imo just a x1,1 difference is enough) .
This makes GO Goku more ore less 10 times weaker than oozaru baby, with the ssj4 almost closing the gap (gt perfect files states that oozaru baby is as strong if not stronger than ssj4 Goku, obviously talking about a ssj4 Goku prior than the moment in wich he got healed from Goten, trunks , gohan and pan)
However, this forces GO goku to be ssj3 oozaru, to maintain consistency and logic. In fact, a normal ssj oozaru wouldn't have been enough to even remotely worry super baby 2, same for a ssj2 oozaru.
It is important to know that Goku was badly injured when he turned GO, so it isn't like fullpower Goku x160/4000 (numbers depends on if you think that she in gt is x2 or x50), but less.
Let's say, if base Goku is 1 , then the Goku that turned GO and after ssj4 is 0,75 imo

[QuakingStar]

I have the screenshots from the episodes, since I watched it a few days ago. GGA Baby was only stronger than Non full powered SS4 Goku, once they were both back at full power and Goku got serious GGA Baby was clearly weaker than him. Baby Vegeta in his SS form alone was stronger than SS3 Goku, Baby Vegeta then proceeds to power up further into what is essentially tufflized SS2 and then tufflized SS3, he then gets bare minimum 10x stronger than even that. Goku only goes GGA and then SS4 and it puts his full power above GGA Baby's full power.

[p-hyvo]

I have the screenshots from the episodes, since I watched it a few days ago. GGA Baby was only stronger than Non full powered SS4 Goku, once they were both back at full power and Goku got serious GGA Baby was clearly weaker than him. Baby Vegeta in his SS form alone was stronger than SS3 Goku, Baby Vegeta then proceeds to power up further into what is essentially tufflized SS2 and then tufflized SS3, he then gets bare minimum 10x stronger than even that. Goku only goes GGA and then SS4 and it puts his full power above GGA Baby's full power.

That's totally the point. I'm ok everything you say

[QuakingStar]

going by the official fusion comparions SS4 should be 80,000x base or 800,000x base. I think 40,000 would be the bare minimum though if we don't consider the fusion comparion statement

[p-hyvo]

going by the official fusion comparions SS4 should be 80,000x base or 800,000x base. I think 40,000 would be the bare minimum though if we don't consider the fusion comparion statement

In dbgt, is fusion to scale from ssj4 and not the opposite as in z.
So, being ssj4 a x1600/x40'000 in goku's case, vegeta scales from that as a consequence

It is all consequential :
Dbz : potara exist, ssj4 doesn't --->you'll scale ssj4 from potara
Dbgt :potara doesn't exist, ssj4 does --->you'll scale potara from ssj4

It works like this

[Hugo Boss]

So, for simplicity sake, you think Baby Vegeta is about 10 times stronger than Goku in each level of Super Saiyan and by consequence SS4 is a 10-fold increase in relation to Golden Great Ape?

[p-hyvo]

So, for simplicity sake, you think Baby Vegeta is about 10 times stronger than Goku in each level of Super Saiyan and by consequence SS4 is a 10-fold increase in relation to Golden Great Ape?

I do like this :
Goku 1
Ssj3 16
Ssj3, drain 12
Baby vegeta 15
Super baby 1 30
Super baby 2, initial 60
Super baby 2, fullpower 120
Majuub 75
Goku, wounded 0,7
Goku, golden oozaru 112
Goku ssj4, initial 224
Oozaru baby 1200
Goku ssj4, adapted 1120
Goku ssj4, healed 1600

[QuakingStar]

That official statement specifically compares the SS4 transformations power to a hypothetical SS3 Vegito going by the images, context and translation. So SS4 is about as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Vegito would be, it is comparing the leaps in power from non fused base form to ss3 fused form, to the power that Super Saiyan 4 brings..

Acording to what was mentioned by another user above and by the fact Toyotaro/Kishimoto through Vados confirm fusion as being ones power added to the others power and then multiplied tens of times and the fusion compared is SS3 fusion, so A+Bx1000x400 = 800,000x base form which is Goku's SS4. Gohan has more potential of course so his SS4 would be stronger. That is why I say 800,000 tops