Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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p-hyvo
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:40 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:31 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:03 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:06 pm


I think Vegeta might have been exaggerating a bit. I don't really believe there is that big of a gap because they still treat what happened in the Cell arc as a big deal as Majin Vegeta says to Goku when he goes ssj2 "Oh wow, even stronger than Gohan was" that to me implies Gohan SSj2 can't be that far behind
The thing that a lot of people undersimate Is how big was the rageboost that Gohan took by Turing ssj2 against Cell. It was sometning really enormous, dall'ing under the "Gohan shows his powerful rage" thing. We saw Gohan go from a Power level of literally 1 to One of 1307 against radish Just because of rage, so why a Power that triggered a transormation should be a lot less than that? I'm not saying that Gohan took a x2000 rageboost or something like this, but i can see at least a x100 boost on top of his ssj there, to make all the buu saga scaling fit into it. Honestly, in my last Power levels i give Gohan a x800 rageboost in that fragment. That the kind of enormous Power that Gohan draws from rage, It Is completely in character
No way an 100x boost. That is far too much. An 100x rage boost is preposterous
That's what you think. But again, rageboost had Always been Gohan's gimmick. He has wrose rageboosts than a x100 in his life
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:03 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:40 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:31 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:03 pm


The thing that a lot of people undersimate Is how big was the rageboost that Gohan took by Turing ssj2 against Cell. It was sometning really enormous, dall'ing under the "Gohan shows his powerful rage" thing. We saw Gohan go from a Power level of literally 1 to One of 1307 against radish Just because of rage, so why a Power that triggered a transormation should be a lot less than that? I'm not saying that Gohan took a x2000 rageboost or something like this, but i can see at least a x100 boost on top of his ssj there, to make all the buu saga scaling fit into it. Honestly, in my last Power levels i give Gohan a x800 rageboost in that fragment. That the kind of enormous Power that Gohan draws from rage, It Is completely in character
No way an 100x boost. That is far too much. An 100x rage boost is preposterous
That's what you think. But again, rageboost had Always been Gohan's gimmick. He has wrose rageboosts than a x100 in his life
I mean yeah but ife he had a x100 rage boost he'd be x200 And that seems rather large. The manga never clarifies how big of a rageboost and I dont know that seems just a bit too much

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:38 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:03 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:40 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:31 pm


No way an 100x boost. That is far too much. An 100x rage boost is preposterous
That's what you think. But again, rageboost had Always been Gohan's gimmick. He has wrose rageboosts than a x100 in his life
I mean yeah but ife he had a x100 rage boost he'd be x200 And that seems rather large. The manga never clarifies how big of a rageboost and I dont know that seems just a bit too much
Actually, a pretty big One Is needed to fit in all the buu saga things as base Goku and vegeta being stronger than piccolo but surpasing Cell games Gohan only with ssj2
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:59 pm

Look Vegeta and Goku each had SS2 in the Buu Sage, before the whole Majin Awakening for Vegeta, they both saw Gohans base, SS, and SS2 power and each agreed he was weaker than when he fought Cell overall. That is a fact, so we need to focus on SS4 stuff.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:58 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Look Vegeta and Goku each had SS2 in the Buu Sage, before the whole Majin Awakening for Vegeta, they both saw Gohans base, SS, and SS2 power and each agreed he was weaker than when he fought Cell overall. That is a fact, so we need to focus on SS4 stuff.
Indeed but discussions tend to get off track.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:42 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Look Vegeta and Goku each had SS2 in the Buu Sage, before the whole Majin Awakening for Vegeta, they both saw Gohans base, SS, and SS2 power and each agreed he was weaker than when he fought Cell overall. That is a fact, so we need to focus on SS4 stuff.
Sorry man, and also SSJ4 I think works as either a limit breaker so like the full potential of the person unleashed and then amplified, or a x5000 multiplier if it has one. I made a theory that it could be equal to 50X50 which could be cool I don't think is the case

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:57 pm

SS4 is confirmed to be SS Potara Fusions level in power, without even considering each users Potential.. so that means that the muliplier that the form brings is equal to or greater than the amount of power that Goku got from becoming Vegito and going SS. So if you include the potential unleashed aspect of Super Saiyan 4 then it is more powerful than Potara Fused Saiyans easily. Gohan and Broly in that form would be absolutely monstrous in power.

BTW does anybody have the second Perfect Files translations on Super Saiyan 4, Vegeta, and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta? It seems that only Perfect Files 1 has been translated on here but I may be wrong.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:19 pm

Also I saw somebody point out that Goku essentially has gotten 8-10x stronger from the Baby Saga to the Super 17 Saga and proved it by using Majuub for comparison. Do you think GT Goku's power growth was influenced by SS4??

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:54 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:42 pm
QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Look Vegeta and Goku each had SS2 in the Buu Sage, before the whole Majin Awakening for Vegeta, they both saw Gohans base, SS, and SS2 power and each agreed he was weaker than when he fought Cell overall. That is a fact, so we need to focus on SS4 stuff.
Sorry man, and also SSJ4 I think works as either a limit breaker so like the full potential of the person unleashed and then amplified, or a x5000 multiplier if it has one. I made a theory that it could be equal to 50X50 which could be cool I don't think is the case
I believe its both a limit breaker and a full potential unleashed and amplified form.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:06 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:54 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:42 pm
QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Look Vegeta and Goku each had SS2 in the Buu Sage, before the whole Majin Awakening for Vegeta, they both saw Gohans base, SS, and SS2 power and each agreed he was weaker than when he fought Cell overall. That is a fact, so we need to focus on SS4 stuff.
Sorry man, and also SSJ4 I think works as either a limit breaker so like the full potential of the person unleashed and then amplified, or a x5000 multiplier if it has one. I made a theory that it could be equal to 50X50 which could be cool I don't think is the case
I believe its both a limit breaker and a full potential unleashed and amplified form.
Yeah I would agree. A 4000 or 5000 multiplier could be cool but I think the way the form works in it's own cannon is a limit breaker. Heroes is bad for power scaling but it's portrayl of SSJ4 Xeno Goku could support that. Xeno Goku did the SSG ritual so his base is equal to that. So if the limit of an SSG is SSGSS than that could explain SSJ4 Goku being able to fight SSGSS Goku

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:24 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:19 pm
Also I saw somebody point out that Goku essentially has gotten 8-10x stronger from the Baby Saga to the Super 17 Saga and proved it by using Majuub for comparison. Do you think GT Goku's power growth was influenced by SS4??
I'd say it's because of training and zenkais from Baby saga. Afterall, Vegeta in Super 17 saga also did better against Super 17 than Majuub and it was pointed later that Vegeta was training a lot after Baby saga. And considering how much he was beaten while possesed as Baby, he could've get big zenkai as well.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:02 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:19 pm
Also I saw somebody point out that Goku essentially has gotten 8-10x stronger from the Baby Saga to the Super 17 Saga and proved it by using Majuub for comparison. Do you think GT Goku's power growth was influenced by SS4??
Can you provide that comparison? I see it hard to believe, Goku didn't grow stronger after surviving Baby's Revenge Death Ball, stated by Baby when he faced again SS3 Goku, so I don't see how he would he get that much stronger when zenkais aren't a thing anymore. For him at least.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:19 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:02 pm
QuakingStar wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:19 pm
Also I saw somebody point out that Goku essentially has gotten 8-10x stronger from the Baby Saga to the Super 17 Saga and proved it by using Majuub for comparison. Do you think GT Goku's power growth was influenced by SS4??
Can you provide that comparison? I see it hard to believe, Goku didn't grow stronger after surviving Baby's Revenge Death Ball, stated by Baby when he faced again SS3 Goku, so I don't see how he would he get that much stronger when zenkais aren't a thing anymore. For him at least.
I think he means how weak Majuub felt compared to SSJ Goku in this arc even though he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Baby saga. He even did worse against Super 17 than Vegeta. And i don't think it's Uub who got weaker since he was training even without Goku as he confirmed in Baby saga and he one shotted Rildo which is something Goku SSJ wouldn't be able to do when he fought him.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:03 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:19 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:02 pm
QuakingStar wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:19 pm
Also I saw somebody point out that Goku essentially has gotten 8-10x stronger from the Baby Saga to the Super 17 Saga and proved it by using Majuub for comparison. Do you think GT Goku's power growth was influenced by SS4??
Can you provide that comparison? I see it hard to believe, Goku didn't grow stronger after surviving Baby's Revenge Death Ball, stated by Baby when he faced again SS3 Goku, so I don't see how he would he get that much stronger when zenkais aren't a thing anymore. For him at least.
I think he means how weak Majuub felt compared to SSJ Goku in this arc even though he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Baby saga. He even did worse against Super 17 than Vegeta. And i don't think it's Uub who got weaker since he was training even without Goku as he confirmed in Baby saga and he one shotted Rildo which is something Goku SSJ wouldn't be able to do when he fought him.
I see. That does make sense, but is contradicted by Goku's lack of zenkai after Vegeta Baby. It couldn't be through zenkai and it seems too short the gap between arcs for Goku to get that strong just by training alone.
Unless it isn't a contradiction and, headcanon here, post-SS4-transformation Goku has gotten his limits raised, a big boost after achieving a new form, becoming ohzaru and even recovering his real adult form for a while. Like an honorary zenkai of some sort.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:28 pm

Goku got 8-10x stronger for sure, Vegeta got nearly that much stronger too. But yea SS4 seems to work like SS3, Potential Unleashed, and Great Ape combined. It's power gain is astronomical. To be compared to SS Potara Fusion in power with a question mark for SS Potara Fusion showing their are doubts that even that is as strong as SS4. As we see in DBS Broly even base Gogeta is stronger than SSGod Goku where as even base Kefla was stronger than SSGod Goku in ToP. So its pretty clear that SSGod is still a bit weaker than the base form of fused Saiyans, while a somewhat tired SSGSS and SS4(without including the potential aspect of the form) were more comparable to SS Fusions power which makes sense in the anime as in the anime SSGSS is looked at as being 50x the power of God. So SS4 without including the potential of a user would also be 50x the power of God.

So Long story short SSGSS and SS4 are SS Fusion level of power generally most likely a tad stronger than it, while SSGod is base fusion level of power generally.

In conclusion the SS4 form itself is an overall equal to SSGSS and superior to SSGod.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:00 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:28 pm
Goku got 8-10x stronger for sure, Vegeta got nearly that much stronger too. But yea SS4 seems to work like SS3, Potential Unleashed, and Great Ape combined. It's power gain is astronomical. To be compared to SS Potara Fusion in power with a question mark for SS Potara Fusion showing their are doubts that even that is as strong as SS4. As we see in DBS Broly even base Gogeta is stronger than SSGod Goku where as even base Kefla was stronger than SSGod Goku in ToP. So its pretty clear that SSGod is still a bit weaker than the base form of fused Saiyans, while a somewhat tired SSGSS and SS4(without including the potential aspect of the form) were more comparable to SS Fusions power which makes sense in the anime as in the anime SSGSS is looked at as being 50x the power of God. So SS4 without including the potential of a user would also be 50x the power of God.

So Long story short SSGSS and SS4 are SS Fusion level of power generally most likely a tad stronger than it, while SSGod is base fusion level of power generally.

In conclusion the SS4 form itself is an overall equal to SSGSS and superior to SSGod.
I think you are mixing continuities about fusions. DBS introduced fusions as much stronger than the original run did, with the fusees having god ki and such. Kale is a different animal, a freak of nature like Broly, making Kefla a unique kind of fusion.
DBS Gogeta is stronger than SSG because it is made of people who can access that form and higher forms too, not just because of the potara. I don't fully suscribe to the "strong as their fusee's strongest form" theory but it works here.

The only comparison between SSG and fusion, as fusion was believed to be at the time of Z-GT, puts God much stronger than Super Vegito and by extension, than a hypothetycal BoG SS4 too. A BoG SS Gogeta wouldn't have been stronger than BoG SSG Goku like it was by the end of Super, it would've been weaker than SSG like Goku implied and the movie supported.

DBS made fusions much stronger than we've ever thought they could be, but it isn't retroactive, it doesn't mean Z Base Super Vegito would be equal to Z SSB Goku, like in the Broly movie.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm

Naw man, fusions are said to be A + B x 10's of times from GT Onward, even in Super. Vados said so about Potara fusion and Perfect Guides say so about Fusion Dance and the context is DBSuper, GT and Perfect Guide talking about SS4 form and Kefla/SS Kefla vs SSGod Goku/SSGSS Goku. SS4 and SSGSS are on the same level as SS Fusion generally while SSGod is is on the level of base fusion generally. The reason it doesn't seem so to some people is that fusion and transformations powers depend upon each users power. So if GT Goku had the same power level as DBS Goku and went SS4 he would be on the same level as DBS Goku using SSGSS. That all comes from the information we are given. So SS4 is on the same level as SSGSS and above SSGod.

To make another thing clear, the Perfect Guide considered fusion as a form and was talking about the power each form brought the user.. so the power that is gained from a users non fused base form to SS Fusion is the power difference being compared to users base form to SS4 form and that isn't including each users own potential. That is a gigantic jump in power and that is the same kind of Jump Goku in DBS shows going from base to SSGSS in the ToP vs the saiyan girls.

Also to use the previous power model for Potara Fusion, it was A x B which would mean somebodies power level of 1,000,000 X somebodies power level of 1,000,000 to make just BASE Vegito for example. So don you now see why they dropped that power scaling for Potara in Super?? It would mean going from base form before the users potential is even added in SS4 would be equivalent to the users power level X the users power level X 50... that would make it even MORE absurdly powerful. So A + B X 10's of times is much better.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:02 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm
Naw man, fusions are said to be A + B x 10's of times from GT Onward, even in Super. Vados said so about Potara fusion and Perfect Guides say so about Fusion Dance and the context is GT and Perfect Guide talking about SS4 form and Kefla/SS Kefla vs SSGod Goku/SSGSS Goku. SS4 and SSGSS are on the same level as SS Fusion generally while SSGod is is on the level of base fusion generally. The reason it doesn't seem so to some people is that fusion and transformations powers depend upon each users power. So if GT Goku had the same power level as DBS Goku and went SS4 he would be on the same level as DBS Goku using SSGSS. That all comes from the information we are given. So SS4 is on the same level as SSGSS and above SSGod.

To make another thing clear, the Perfect Guide considered fusion as a form and was talking about the power each form brought the user.. so the power that is gained from a users non fused base form to SS Fusion is the power difference being compared to users base form to SS4 form and that isn't including each users own potential. That is a gigantic jump in power and that is the same kind of Jump Goku in DBS shows going from base to SSGSS in the ToP vs the saiyan girls.

Also to use the previous power model for Potara Fusion, it was A x B which would mean somebodies power level of 1,000,000 X somebodies power level of 1,000,000 to make just BASE Vegito for example. So don you now see why they dropped that power scaling for Potara in Super?? It would mean going from base form before the users potential is even added in SS4 would be equivalent to the users power level X the users power level X 50... that would make it even MORE absurdly powerful. So A + B X 10's of times is much better.
I don't agree. There isn't enough info given to say at the same base level SS4 equals SSB, actually there is none aside of a couple of videogames.

SSG gave Goku a boost in BoG higher than potara would have. This means SSG >> SS fusion at least.
If Goku in BoG were to go SS4 instead of SSG, going with that official guide (SEG I think) that says after Goku and Vegeta merge and go SS they might be even stronger than SS4, then he would still fall flat.
So, both forms have been compared to the same kind of boost, with SSG coming on top. So, at best SSG and SS4 provide the same increase in power.


The example of end-of-Super Gogeta doesn't work because he is the result of that guy that alone can go higher than regular SS fusion and another guy that can also go higher than SS fusions, but years later, after they became much stronger. Their fusion has become much more powerful now that they wield god-like powers and can't surpass that power on their own anymore, except maybe with UI.
And Kefla is part Kale, that freak is the variable. In Gogeta's case, god ki would be the variable.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:13 pm

Only in BoG did Goku say that, he ended up being wrong as later information retcons older information. You can't nitpick older info that is overridden into the equation just because it helps to fit your idea

to be even more clear Goku said he didn''t think fusion would help, not that he knew it wouldn't help. Not to mention you can't rely on BoG for anything anyway as Beerus lied the entire time. He used nowhere near 70% of his power and he held back astronomically in order to see God's power. Using anything from Battle of Gods in your idea is a horribly bad idea.
Last edited by QuakingStar on Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:15 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:13 pm
Only in BoG did Goku say that, he ended up being wrong as later information retcons older information. You can't nitpick older info that is overridden into the equation just because it helps to fit your idea
When was Goku wrong about that? are you saying SSG in BoG was weaker than BoG potara fusion?

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