Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
miguelnuva1
I Live Here
Posts: 2673
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:21 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:50 pm DBGT is actually very explicit about Gohan, Goten and Trunks growing softer in those peaceful 15 years after the battle against Majin Boo. Gohan became a scholar, Trunks Capsule Corp CEO and Goten we don't even know what he does besides dating girls.

They also look like total wimps in comparison to how they used to be, specially Gohan (Not sure what he means by every statement on the show have weaker DBGT characters above nearly all DBZ strongest characters. He didn't provide any).

I honestly couldn't care less about what the GT Perfect Files say on this matter, because this tidbit about Gohan was probably written by someone who didn't pay attention.
Goten says Bebi is the strongest ki he ever sensed and he sensed Super Buu as a Kid. Goten still thinks he can beat Bebi. Goten> Super Buu.

Gohan can fight a stronger SS Goten(powered up by Bebi) in his base form.

Gohan>SS Goten(Bebi)>SS Goten> Super Buu

Vegeta needs to SS but it takes Gohan and Goten to go after him.

SS Vegeta>SS Gohan(Bebi)>Gohan>SS Goten(Bebi)>SS Goten> Super Buu

Goku gets home and he destroys his kids as Super Saiyans.

Goku>SS Vegeta>SS Gohan(Bebi)>Gohan>SS Goten(Bebi)>SS Goten> Super Buu

You would have to discredit Goten in the show saying Teen Bebi is weaker than Super Buu.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:50 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm I’m not sure if you are taking this discussion seriously or not, but all the implications you brought up seem to be totally missing the premise Dragon Ball GT was working with.

Atsushi Maekawa is one of GT most active writers and he even exposed the idea behind Goku becoming a kid again being basically a way to nerf him, and specifically mentioned that Gohan gave up fighting almost entirely, which directly contradict any piece of information the perfect files book have about he not neglecting his training.
But that also contradicts what actual series shows us. Base Gohan wasn't hurt by Rildo's attacks which is something DBZ Gohan wouldn't achieve against any form of Buu without his Ultimate form. That clearly shows Gohan in GT is still much stronger than in DBZ. He might've give up fighting but not training. I mean when Vegeta said he will never fight again he would still probably train for himself, he just lost will to fight. So maybe mr Maekawa only meant Gohan isn't interested in fighting, doesn't fight crime as Great Saiyaman and doesn't train as hard, but he still trains so he can protect his family in case of danger, kinda what DBS Gohan decided to do after RoF events. Or maybe mr Maekawa is actually the one that is wrong and not Perfect Files.
I’m not seeing how Gohan vs. Rild fight implies Gohan has become stronger. Rild was totally in control of that fight. If Oob didn’t intervene, Gohan would be in quite a predicament. Not to mention the good Boo’s ki is much lower than what used to be before the split, so we don’t even have anyone to compare him with, since he only fought the evil Boo and was on the losing side.

Also, I’m pretty sure Goten was comparing Teenage Baby to the other infected humans that were attacking him and Mr. Satan. Nothing about Majin Boo here.

Gohan also wasn’t doing any progress against SS Goten, and Baby even thought he overestimated Gohan after fighting him a little. But Gohan was purposefully holding back his Super Saiyan form to not be taken over. Nothing here points to Gohan being a match to SS Goten.

User avatar
miguelnuva1
I Live Here
Posts: 2673
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:50 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm I’m not sure if you are taking this discussion seriously or not, but all the implications you brought up seem to be totally missing the premise Dragon Ball GT was working with.

Atsushi Maekawa is one of GT most active writers and he even exposed the idea behind Goku becoming a kid again being basically a way to nerf him, and specifically mentioned that Gohan gave up fighting almost entirely, which directly contradict any piece of information the perfect files book have about he not neglecting his training.
But that also contradicts what actual series shows us. Base Gohan wasn't hurt by Rildo's attacks which is something DBZ Gohan wouldn't achieve against any form of Buu without his Ultimate form. That clearly shows Gohan in GT is still much stronger than in DBZ. He might've give up fighting but not training. I mean when Vegeta said he will never fight again he would still probably train for himself, he just lost will to fight. So maybe mr Maekawa only meant Gohan isn't interested in fighting, doesn't fight crime as Great Saiyaman and doesn't train as hard, but he still trains so he can protect his family in case of danger, kinda what DBS Gohan decided to do after RoF events. Or maybe mr Maekawa is actually the one that is wrong and not Perfect Files.
I’m not seeing how Gohan vs. Rild fight implies Gohan has become stronger. Rild was totally in control of that fight. If Oob didn’t intervene, Gohan would be in quite a predicament. Not to mention the good Boo’s ki is much lower than what used to be before the split, so we don’t even have anyone to compare him with, since he only fought the evil Boo and was on the losing side.

Also, I’m pretty sure Goten was comparing Teenage Baby to the other infected humans that were attacking him and Mr. Satan. Nothing about Majin Boo here.

Gohan also wasn’t doing any progress against SS Goten, and Baby even thought he overestimated Gohan after fighting him a little. But Gohan was purposefully holding back his Super Saiyan form to not be taken over. Nothing here points to Gohan being a match to SS Goten.
So basically I'm going to throw out any evidence against my POV because I don't like it is where you're at in the debate.

Gotcha.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:50 pm I’m not seeing how Gohan vs. Rild fight implies Gohan has become stronger. Rild was totally in control of that fight. If Oob didn’t intervene, Gohan would be in quite a predicament. Not to mention the good Boo’s ki is much lower than what used to be before the split, so we don’t even have anyone to compare him with, since he only fought the evil Boo and was on the losing side.
Gohan got him arm disabled by Rildo which is why he couldn't defend himself, but if you look at this fight you can see that Rildo landed a lot of strong punches on Gohan and he wasn't hurt in the end and he went straight against Super 17. Rildo would've killed him because he disabled his leg and Gohan couldn't move. Seeing how Gohan survived all of that without taking any serious damage it's safe to assume he got much stronger. Even if Goku meant Mr. Buu and even if Mr. Buu is weaker than original Fat Buu, base DBZ Gohan would probably still do much worse than GT Gohan against him. Mr. Buu is not pushover anyway, considering how much stronger Uub became after fusing with him.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:44 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:41 pm So basically I'm going to throw out any evidence against my POV because I don't like it is where you're at in the debate.

Gotcha.
What makes you so sure what you are claiming constitutes evidence?

What Goten says: "Satan-san, this guy is in a different league from everyone else up until now!" (Context: Goten was fighting a bunch of ordinary humans possessed by Baby). Why should I take that to mean he is comparing Baby to Super Boo? And for someone who was stated to get softer and was supposedly in front of someone far stronger than him, Goten was more worried about his date than anything else.

I think there is no need to extrapolate what the characters say beyond what their action and characterization shows, and honestly I’m not seeing the problem here. Sounds like I’m not allowed to express my opinion, just because there is such a popular idea that all the Saiyans are absurdly more powerful.
sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:19 pm Gohan got him arm disabled by Rildo which is why he couldn't defend himself, but if you look at this fight you can see that Rildo landed a lot of strong punches on Gohan and he wasn't hurt in the end and he went straight against Super 17. Rildo would've killed him because he disabled his leg and Gohan couldn't move. Seeing how Gohan survived all of that without taking any serious damage it's safe to assume he got much stronger. Even if Goku meant Mr. Buu and even if Mr. Buu is weaker than original Fat Buu, base DBZ Gohan would probably still do much worse than GT Gohan against him. Mr. Buu is not pushover anyway, considering how much stronger Uub became after fusing with him.
Just to make it clear, I don’t see much relevance in how badly Gohan was losing to Rild, but rather in what he doesn’t accomplish. I think this is the crucial point that is being missed here. Besides, there isn’t much consistency in how battle power differences are portrayed in anime fights, so I honestly don’t think you can say for sure DBZ Gohan wouldn’t be able to drag a fight against Mr. Boo for a while. I recal that he managed to fight SS Broly before going straight to Super Saiyan himself.

To add to that. Merging powers together doesn’t follow a strict rule. See Super 17, for example. He is much stronger than Oob and Boo merged, and I doubt those two 17s were stronger than either of them individually.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:44 pm Just to make it clear, I don’t see much relevance in how badly Gohan was losing to Rild, but rather in what he doesn’t accomplish. I think this is the crucial point that is being missed here. Besides, there isn’t much consistency in how battle power differences are portrayed in anime fights, so I honestly don’t think you can say for sure DBZ Gohan wouldn’t be able to drag a fight against Mr. Boo for a while. I recal that he managed to fight SS Broly before going straight to Super Saiyan himself.

To add to that. Merging powers together doesn’t follow a strict rule. See Super 17, for example. He is much stronger than Oob and Boo merged, and I doubt those two 17s were stronger than either of them individually.
Tbh i never include movies as they have kinda different logic and do not really follow actual anime events, even though GT made some references like dragon fist or Cooler being shown at TV, but so did DBZ with Icarus. So anything Gohan would do in movies i do not count.

Yeah we clearly do not know how strong majin or android fusion is in terms of multiplying power so that's fair argument.

Although as seen in Baby saga, base infected Gohan was very confident on taking Mr. Buu and he wasn't any different in power than regular GT Gohan (infection itself didn't increase power). It's safe to assume then that he would have no problem beating him which is something i still don't think base DBZ Gohan would do (as i said, i don't include movies here) as that would make Mr. Buu weaker than Dabura which is something i really doubt as Mr. Buu could still last a while against Kid Buu even though he wasn't probably at full power after Kid Buu released him.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:01 am

So, nobody sees the inconsistency in saying characters that were no longer battle-lusted and had other things going on in their lives, becoming astronomically stronger in just 5 years of basically working, dating and studying? surpassing the strongest ever, in their base forms, when they couldn't even get close to that power when they actually were living for the battle? this doesn't ring a bell at all?

I also don't think the supposed confidence of possessed characters are any indication of their power. The brothers were also confident in beating base Goku and we saw how humiliating that was.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4982
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by TheMikado » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:35 pm

Just popping in here but my head cannon has always had Baby’s power as additive rather than multiplier to Vegeta’s.

I.e. Vegeta SSJ2 + Baby solo(SSJ3 level) would out class SSJ3 Goku.
I see the SSJ4 as a 10x multiplier on the base SSJ1-2 state.
So when Baby Vegeta goes Ape,
it’s 10xSSJ2 Vegeta + SSJ3 level baby
Vs 10x SSJ2 Goku who can also go 10x SSJ3 to edge out Super Baby in ape form

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:04 am

TheMikado wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:35 pm Just popping in here but my head cannon has always had Baby’s power as additive rather than multiplier to Vegeta’s.

I.e. Vegeta SSJ2 + Baby solo(SSJ3 level) would out class SSJ3 Goku.
I see the SSJ4 as a 10x multiplier on the base SSJ1-2 state.
So when Baby Vegeta goes Ape,
it’s 10xSSJ2 Vegeta + SSJ3 level baby
Vs 10x SSJ2 Goku who can also go 10x SSJ3 to edge out Super Baby in ape form
It's hard to determine how exactly Baby's control work since he uses both his host forms (SSJ, Oozaru) as well as his own forms (Strongest Forms 1&2) + he just kept getting stronger on his own by infecting people. By the time he appeared on Earth he already looked completely different thanks to all the power he got from other life forms in space. When he left Vegeta's body, he was in his complete/adult form that was calculated by Trunks to be strongest thing in universe at the moment that statement was made (which was back on M2 when SSJ4 and Majuub weren't a thing yet), so it's completely possible that after Baby left Vegeta's body he was already stronger than Baby Gohan let's say or even first form of Baby Vegeta.

Baby Vegeta SSJ was stronger or at the very very least comparable to Goku SSJ3. If we go with official multipliers (that no one even care about, let's be real) then SSJ3 was supposed to be 8 times stronger than SSJ. If we assume Goku = Vegeta (which isn't true in GT) it would mean Baby made Vegeta about 8 times stronger so his SSJ could compete against SSJ3 Goku. That would be multiplier clearly, not addition, since Baby alone wasn't nearly as powerful to fight Vegeta on his own back then. He was even struggling as Baby Gohan. But again, those official multipliers were never consistent so it could've been addition anyway.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
QuakingStar
Regular
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:18 pm

Ok, so anybody find anything new on Super Saiyan 4? I'm not talking about fan multiplier speculation.

User avatar
Korru
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Korru » Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:21 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:18 pm Ok, so anybody find anything new on Super Saiyan 4? I'm not talking about fan multiplier speculation.
I can help with that
Liked what you liked ... before it was cool

User avatar
QuakingStar
Regular
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:11 am

Korru wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:21 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:18 pm Ok, so anybody find anything new on Super Saiyan 4? I'm not talking about fan multiplier speculation.
I can help with that
So you found new translations or information on the form?

User avatar
Korru
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Korru » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:23 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:11 am
Korru wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:21 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:18 pm Ok, so anybody find anything new on Super Saiyan 4? I'm not talking about fan multiplier speculation.
I can help with that
So you found new translations or information on the form?
Quite a bit but not sure if its repeating whats already said ( and yes, I did rad all the pages for this thread up until this point )


1). When GT Goten and GT Trunks suggested to SSJ4 Goku that they should do fusion to help confront against Golden Oozaru Bebi Vegeta, Goku immediate said that it won't work - further saying that his SSJ4 transformation was their best chance. This would to suggest that the multiplier for SSJ4 multiplier is bigger than [Metamoran Fusion x SSJ3] ( since GT Trunks and GT Goten was referring to Gotenks ). One would argue that its likely because of the differences in Base Forms ( Base GT Trunks & Base GT Goten in comparison Base GT Goku ) , but there's ample evidence to show how strong the Base forms of GT Trunks and GT Goten.

To put it simply, baring in mind that DBGT follows that logic of [Kid Buu > Buuhan], ... GT Trunks and GT Goten are beyond "The Strongest Buu" too ...

Heavily Suppressed Base GT Goten > Teen Bebi > Infant Bebi > Metal Rild > Hyper Meta Rild > Base Rild > Suppressed Base Rild> Sigma Force > Lord Luud Stage 3 > Lord Luud Stage 2 > Lord Luud > Redgic > Uub (Beginning of GT) > Base GT Goku (Beginning of GT) > Base Goku ( End of Original DBZ ) > Young Uub = Kid Buu = DBZ SSJ3 Goku > Enraged Buuhan > Buuhan

... But not close enough to challenge Base Goku as shown when Bebi arrives on Earth via


Suppressed Base GT Goku > SSJ GT Vegeta > SSJ Bebi Gohan > SSJ GT Gohan > Base GT Gohan > Suppressed Base GT Gohan = SSJ Bebi Goten > SSJ GT Goten > Base GT Goten > Suppressed Base GT Goten > Heavily Suppressed Base GT Goten > Teen Bebi > etc ...

Bebi's infection gains is approx. x8 ... then stack that with a few x50 ..
You basically conclude that , at the very least it would be considerably better than one might initially think.
If you still don't believe that GT Goten and GT Trunks aren't that strong then remember that ... [a] despite Infant Bebi being far stronger than the strongest buu, Infant Bebi said that SSJ GT Trunks' Ki is "bottomless" compared to his own Ki. And GT Trunks' Ki is comparable to GT Goten's Ki because they are sparring partners - they're rivals to each other. Plus, we also see GT Trunks saving GT Goku's life from Mutchi - all of this to prove that, while GT Goku's Base form is stronger than GT Trunks' base form and GT Goten's base form, ... its not a deafening/huge difference

Comparatively-wise ... ( and re-iterate and/or to summarize )
The V-Jump article claiming that Potara Fusion and Metamoran Fusion being is questionable and might solely be for dBs continuity.
But then again one would have to consider the resulting situation that puts the SSJ4 transformation in .. via ...

SSJ4 multiplier is officially stated to be similar to Goku using Potara Fusion with Vegeta ( so imagine a hypothetical Potara Fusion (of Goku and Vegeta) happening in the Bebi Saga instead of SSJ4 ) .. WHILE considering that not even a hypothetical SSJ3 GT Gotenks occurring in the Bebi Saga was not deemed enough Vs. SSJ4 being far stronger.


Liked what you liked ... before it was cool

User avatar
QuakingStar
Regular
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:08 pm

Herms already made a tweet thread awhile back where he discussed it and thinks it is more likely they are referring to the SS4 form being compared to a hypothetical GT SS3 Vegito. So SS4 does seem to be above SS3 Fusion Dance for sure while it's only a maybe with SS3 GT Vegito being as strong or stronger. SS4 is basically SS3 x Great Ape + Potential Unleashed. But back to what I was saying before, is there any new info for the form from translations or anything?

User avatar
miguelnuva1
I Live Here
Posts: 2673
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:21 pm

If SS4 was the same boost as Goku using Potara with Vegeta and than going SS which is what I saw it as you are already getting at the bare minimum 50x SS3.

Seems fine to me personally.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:13 pm

I don’t know if this is the kind of stuff you’re interested, but Bandai has wafer stickers of SS4 Goku, SS4 Vegeta and even the evil dragons from Dragon Ball GT in conjunction with characters from Future Trunks arc from Dragon Ball Super, from where you could draw some comparisons.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:55 am

But that's basically revised information.

If we judge GT by GT alone, then even Goten, who is never shown training at all and by all logic should have gotten rusty, should be stronger than Buuhan.

GT has a stupid power scaling that might not be what the writers totally intended, but it is what it is.

User avatar
QuakingStar
Regular
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Sat May 14, 2022 10:41 pm

Speaking of SS4LB, I used to think it had God Ki because of the way the ritual was done. But not anymore because the ki they gained could be sensed by Pan.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by TobyS » Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:13 pm I don’t know if this is the kind of stuff you’re interested, but Bandai has wafer stickers of SS4 Goku, SS4 Vegeta and even the evil dragons from Dragon Ball GT in conjunction with characters from Future Trunks arc from Dragon Ball Super, from where you could draw some comparisons.
How does ss4 stack up based on these?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:47 am

TobyS wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:14 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:13 pm I don’t know if this is the kind of stuff you’re interested, but Bandai has wafer stickers of SS4 Goku, SS4 Vegeta and even the evil dragons from Dragon Ball GT in conjunction with characters from Future Trunks arc from Dragon Ball Super, from where you could draw some comparisons.
How does ss4 stack up based on these?
Probably Super Saiyan Blue level from the end of Future Trunks arc in Super.

Post Reply